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beny258

Challenge cache type

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Hi, I'm playing Geocaching for two and a half years. I find challenge caches interesting but I don't understand why they don't have their own type and icon. They are completely different then most of the mystery caches, so I don't see a single reason why shouldn't make them as a new cache type. That's my opinion but I think many geocachers would appreciate it.

 

beny258

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33 minutes ago, beny258 said:

Hi, I'm playing Geocaching for two and a half years. I find challenge caches interesting but I don't understand why they don't have their own type and icon. They are completely different then most of the mystery caches, so I don't see a single reason why shouldn't make them as a new cache type. That's my opinion but I think many geocachers would appreciate it.

Ditto.

 

And yes, a new cache type has been requested for challenge caches. It has been requested many times for challenge caches. And yet, here we are...

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I personally would rather see a "challenge" attribute.

In 2016, in a blog, the site said :

What’s Not Changing (for now)

The idea of a challenge cache icon or attribute earned significant support from the community.

We agree there are a lot of good reasons to implement one. However, we want to confirm that the new framework will reduce the problems which led to the moratorium. It wouldn’t make sense to engineer a new icon or attribute only to lose it if challenge caches don’t work out. We’re going to give it a year or so, and then re-evaluate the situation. If we find that things are going well, then we will strongly consider adding a new icon or attribute for challenge caches.

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I would love to see a challenge cache type too it doesn't make sense it doesn't exist. But since the blog in 2016 it's radio silence from Groundspeak...

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This suggestion and a power trail attribute appear to be the two most common requests from cachers yet nothing has been done.  I wouldn't hold my breath.

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A quick search will reveal the most active threads that have discussed the option(s) out the wazoo. To be clear: it's not a cut and dry obvious request that HQ is simply ignoring. There are many nuances, and another thread will only rehash those points, and most likely end up with the same people debating them over again ;P

(IBTCSs)

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I look at all local 'mystery' type caches when published, and discover that some are puzzles and some are challenges, but I don't feel the need to know in advance which is which.  The former I'll print to see if I can solve it at some point.  There's usually a challenge checker associated with the latter, and if I'm not sure if I qualify, I run that just to see what I'm missing.

 

Are people interested in distinguishing them because they don't want to solve puzzles, but are interested in challenges, or ???

 

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45 minutes ago, ecanderson said:

Are people interested in distinguishing them because they don't want to solve puzzles, but are interested in challenges, or ???

 

As you mention, it's not really hard to figure out which is which once you're on the cache page but some want what you describe above while others want the opposite - don't want challenges but do want to solve puzzles.  There's enough of a difference (especially now) that it seems silly to have no way to filter out one from the other.

 

It's not going to be an issue with me if they never come out with a new attribute or cache type but it would be nice.  Same goes for power trails.

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2 hours ago, ecanderson said:

Are people interested in distinguishing them because they don't want to solve puzzles, but are interested in challenges, or ???


My guess is that it’s more to do with distinguishing them on the map.  Challenges (newer ones, at least) are essentially Trads with an ALR - it would be convenient to be able to see them on the map, whilst excluding puzzles (which typically aren’t at the posted coords and require some forward planning).

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2 hours ago, ecanderson said:

 

Are people interested in distinguishing them because they don't want to solve puzzles, but are interested in challenges, or ???

Because challenge caches have as much to do with mysteries as they have to do with practically any other type of cache. Challenge caches are not mysteries!!!

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"Challenge caches must be listed as Mystery caches and must have the English word "challenge" in the title.

 

Seems simple to me. .. 

I'd think it'd be easier to just have COs with "challenge" in the title when it isn't a challenge , remove it from their cache titles.   :)

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I completely agree with the new icon. We organize geocaching camps for children and it is difficult to explain to them that they cannot log this cache because they do not meet the conditions and at the same time it is a type of mystery. If the challenge cache were separated by an icon, it would definitely be clearer.

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1 hour ago, TmdAndGG said:

Because challenge caches have as much to do with mysteries as they have to do with practically any other type of cache. Challenge caches are not mysteries!!!

 

You're misrelating "Question Mark" icons to specifically mean 'Mysteries'. 

In fact, that icon is used for Mysteries, Puzzles and anything that doesn't fit in with the other types.

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5 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

You're misrelating "Question Mark" icons to specifically mean 'Mysteries'. 

In fact, that icon is used for Mysteries, Puzzles and anything that doesn't fit in with the other types.

Yes, the mystery/puzzle cache type is the "catch-all" of geocache types. And yes, the mystery/puzzle cache type is often the "staging ground" for new types of geocaches that don't fit other categories.

 

But some of us think that challenge caches have outgrown that "staging ground" and deserve their own type. As mentioned by others, there are significant differences between challenge caches an all other mystery/puzzle caches. And challenge caches are certainly mature enough to have their own type, since they have their own extensive Help Center page.

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13 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

You're misrelating "Question Mark" icons to specifically mean 'Mysteries'. 


Could that be because the Help Center tells us that the question marks are Mysteries?

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127

 

For me, there’s very little mystery to a Challenge, and they have little in common with other caches that fall into the mystery bucket.

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13 minutes ago, IceColdUK said:


Could that be because the Help Center tells us that the question marks are Mysteries?

 

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127

 

For me, there’s very little mystery to a Challenge, and they have little in common with other caches that fall into the mystery bucket.

 

Well, don't make it sound like the Help Center says that the "Blue ?" is just reserved for a single form of 'Mystery Cache'. Just a few lines down on that page it says that they're "Challenge Caches", as well.

The way it's described, it sounds like you have to seek things out, accomplish tasks, etc, which sure sounds like a form of generic puzzle to me.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

The way it's described, it sounds like you have to seek things out, accomplish tasks, etc, which sure sounds like a form of generic puzzle to me.


(Sorry if that was a little sarcastic.)

 

In practice, a post-moratorium challenge is just a Trad with an ALR (achieved using a link to a Project-GC checker), and I don’t think that's anything like a puzzle.

Edited by IceColdUK
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4 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

"Challenge caches must be listed as Mystery caches and must have the English word "challenge" in the title.

 

Seems simple to me. .. 

I'd think it'd be easier to just have COs with "challenge" in the title when it isn't a challenge , remove it from their cache titles.   :)

 

Except the website search tools don't have a way of excluding caches with "challenge" in the title. It's fine to use that if your goal is to search for challenge caches, but if your goal is to search for Mystery caches that aren't challenges (usually puzzles) then you're out of luck.

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2 hours ago, IceColdUK said:


(Sorry if that was a little sarcastic.)

 

In practice, a post-moratorium challenge is just a Trad with an ALR (achieved using a link to a Project-GC checker), and I don’t think that's anything like a puzzle.

 

No worries.

As niraD said, it just might be time.

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Not all non-challenge cache listings are puzzles.  As mentioned, it's a catch-all type, with its caches defined by "what is not [existing types]".

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Posted (edited)

There is nothing defining what a puzzle is. Something that may be a puzzle for one person may not be one for another person. For all I know, finding a traditional cache may be a puzzle for a person, because they have to figure out how to get there or load the coordinates or something like that. 

Edited by TmdAndGG

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Sorry I am late.

 

I can't think of a better way to address every issue with the Challenge caches than implementation of a system that extends existing features.

 

Two simple additions.  A new log type and cache rating gauge.   This fixes all.

 

Maybe its time to bump this thread to see if anyone can convince me there's a simpler alternative:

 

Challenge Stars

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1 hour ago, frinklabs said:

Once again, if you're going to separate the Find from the Challenge Completed, then go all the way and separate the Challenge from the Cache.

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They should be a traditional, since they are at the posted coordinates, with a challenge attribute. But that would upset the icon collectors. 

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4 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

They should be a traditional, since they are at the posted coordinates, with a challenge attribute. But that would upset the icon collectors. 

 

Please, no. With everyone being told to just tap on the cache, follow the arrow and only look at the description if you get stuck, it's bad enough now with PM muggles-with-apps logging challenges without knowing what they are. Making them visible as traditionals to everyone just downloading the app for a bit of a lark this weekend is something I don't want to think about.

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5 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

They should be a traditional, since they are at the posted coordinates, with a challenge attribute. But that would upset the icon collectors. 

No.  Not all Challenge Caches are traditional hides.  I've seen puzzle and off-set caches, and mini-geoart.

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The container must be placed at coordinates on the cache page, either as posted coordinates, or as a visible final waypoint.

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8 hours ago, frinklabs said:

Sorry I am late.

 

I can't think of a better way to address every issue with the Challenge caches than implementation of a system that extends existing features.

 

Two simple additions.  A new log type and cache rating gauge.   This fixes all.

 

Maybe its time to bump this thread to see if anyone can convince me there's a simpler alternative:

 

Challenge Stars

Not so simple additions.  A couple of simpler alternatives:  1.  Leave as is; 2. Add a cache icon (one addition is simpler than two...).

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18 hours ago, The Jester said:

Not so simple additions.  A couple of simpler alternatives:  1.  Leave as is; 2. Add a cache icon (one addition is simpler than two...).

No solution is simple AND addresses issues (which not everyone cares about of course). As extensively discussed in the thread, that feature addresses as many concerns as possible (whether one considers it a concern or not) and tries to keep the complexity to a minimum, a balance (of user experience and programmatic complexity).  Doing nothing leaves outstanding issues; simple solutions don't address all the issues; solving every issue is impossible; complex solutions won't be user friendly; complicated programming won't be viable or worthwhile. Everyone sits somewhere amongst these factors.

Challenge caches are a unique beast, and right now they're sitting in a limbo position that seems to be "sufficient" at least for the time being.

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I like the idea of an attribute more than a new cache type.

 

I'm probably the only one that feels this way but what I'd really like is for challenge caches to be brought in line with every other physical cache  type. Make the challenge optional (like any other ALR). Find the cache, sign the log, log your "found it" online. If you complete the challenge, great, you get recognized on the cache page for the accomplishment (like a Hall of Fame or Honor Roll cache). 

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4 minutes ago, MtnGoat50 said:

I like the idea of an attribute more than a new cache type.

 

I'm probably the only one that feels this way but what I'd really like is for challenge caches to be brought in line with every other physical cache  type. Make the challenge optional (like any other ALR). Find the cache, sign the log, log your "found it" online.

If you complete the challenge, great, you get recognized on the cache page for the accomplishment (like a Hall of Fame or Honor Roll cache). 

 

I'm with you on that...   :)   Easier than hassling with a gazillion COs to remove "challenge" in their cache titles when it's not one.

To be clear, I'm still happily Challenge-free.

 

...But I'd bet you aren't, by looking at all the other means folks rig things "just for a smiley".   ;)   

Earthcaches, webcams, and virtuals have legit ALRs, why shouldn't Challenge caches ?

I've entered "challenges" , where you had to accomplish tasks for a "reputation" for (let's say...) "Top dog" upon completion. 

Three heads, it was easy...    :D

 - Each cache found was a "point" like any other.    The title was just silly bravado.   

 

Guess I kinda consider a Challenge cache similar to the "bonus" cache at the end of a series. 

You complete all, and kept track for proof (like writing down coordinate numbers from cache lids...), which means you're now able to access the "bonus".

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5 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Earthcaches, webcams, and virtuals have legit ALRs, why shouldn't Challenge caches ?

Because challenge caches are physical caches with a container and log to sign. That's how you prove you found it. The others you mention are all virtual, no container, no log.

 

6 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Guess I kinda consider a Challenge cache similar to the "bonus" cache at the end of a series. 

You complete all, and kept track for proof (like writing down coordinate numbers from cache lids...), which means you're now able to access the "bonus".

Except that I don't have to do the series to log a find. All I have to do is find it and write my name in the log. Just like I don't have to prove I've solved the puzzle to log a find on a puzzle cache. Challenge caches are the only "physical" caches that allow an ALR. 

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1 hour ago, MtnGoat50 said:

Because challenge caches are physical caches with a container and log to sign. That's how you prove you found it.

The others you mention are all virtual, no container, no log.

Except that I don't have to do the series to log a find. All I have to do is find it and write my name in the log.

Just like I don't have to prove I've solved the puzzle to log a find on a puzzle cache.

Challenge caches are the only "physical" caches that allow an ALR. 

 

I understand all that, I just don't see the issue...      :D

Just like this last "locationless for 2020" thing that doesn't resemble any locationless we found,  a Challenge cache is simply  different.  

We think a few things here are  different.  This latest variation of "labs" is one.  Neither of us will do them. Simple.

 I said earlier I can see a few people would probably get behind your wish of yet-another "smiley", without having to go through the requirements. :)

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2 hours ago, MtnGoat50 said:

I'm probably the only one that feels this way but what I'd really like is for challenge caches to be brought in line with every other physical cache  type. Make the challenge optional (like any other ALR). Find the cache, sign the log, log your "found it" online. If you complete the challenge, great, you get recognized on the cache page for the accomplishment (like a Hall of Fame or Honor Roll cache). 

 

For me that would take away the best bit about the challenges I've done. In 2016 a challenge cache was published requiring 24 finds with a D/T rating of 2/4. At the time I had four of those on my D/T grid, but over the course of the following year I went far and wide, tackling long hikes, steep climbs and prickly undergrowth to get that tally up to 24. Along the way I found some fantastic caches that I probably wouldn't have known about if it weren't for that challenge. Finally in September 2017 I'd found my 24th 2/4 cache so I headed up to the challenge's mountainous T4 hiding place and successfully completed its D2 search for the container.

 

GZ.jpg.234992178d765c8ffa666bb0ac6933ac.jpg

 

As a traditional that would have been an enjoyable hike but it wouldn't have been the stand-out experience it was for me as a challenge. Would I have gone through all the effort in finding those 24 other D2/T4 caches just to get my name on an honour roll on the cache page? Probably not. The motivation for me in that year of 2/4 caching was to qualify for logging this one.

 

It seems I'm not the only one around here who feels that way. Here's an extract from a recent log on one of my own challenge caches:

 

Quote

We've had our eye on this cache for ages, initially we were a few short of qualifying, but that was soon remedied with some awesome walks. The qualifying caches for this challenge are generally the best ones around, and make for great days with family and friends too.

 

There's another challenge in these parts I'm keeping half an eye on, the Scenic Adventurer Challenge that requires 40 finds on T4+ caches which must each have the Scenic View, Difficult Climbing and Cliffs/Falling Rocks attributes. So far I've found 15 qualifying caches and I don't know if I'll be able to get that up to 40 before old age makes that unachievable, or even if I'll be able to get to GZ when I do. But it's that little niggle in the back of my mind telling me that maybe, just maybe...

 

No, for me, a name on an honour roll just wouldn't be the same motivation.

 

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4 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

For me that would take away the best bit about the challenges I've done. In 2016 a challenge cache was published requiring 24 finds with a D/T rating of 2/4. At the time I had four of those on my D/T grid, but over the course of the following year I went far and wide, tackling long hikes, steep climbs and prickly undergrowth to get that tally up to 24. Along the way I found some fantastic caches that I probably wouldn't have known about if it weren't for that challenge. Finally in September 2017 I'd found my 24th 2/4 cache so I headed up to the challenge's mountainous T4 hiding place and successfully completed its D2 search for the container.

 

GZ.jpg.234992178d765c8ffa666bb0ac6933ac.jpg

 

As a traditional that would have been an enjoyable hike but it wouldn't have been the stand-out experience it was for me as a challenge. Would I have gone through all the effort in finding those 24 other D2/T4 caches just to get my name on an honour roll on the cache page? Probably not. The motivation for me in that year of 2/4 caching was to qualify for logging this one.

 

It seems I'm not the only one around here who feels that way. Here's an extract from a recent log on one of my own challenge caches:

 

 

There's another challenge in these parts I'm keeping half an eye on, the Scenic Adventurer Challenge that requires 40 finds on T4+ caches which must each have the Scenic View, Difficult Climbing and Cliffs/Falling Rocks attributes. So far I've found 15 qualifying caches and I don't know if I'll be able to get that up to 40 before old age makes that unachievable, or even if I'll be able to get to GZ when I do. But it's that little niggle in the back of my mind telling me that maybe, just maybe...

 

No, for me, a name on an honour roll just wouldn't be the same motivation.

 

I agree fully.  Getting my name on a list isn't as motivating as working to qualify for the right to log the Challenge.  There are too many on these forums that just want to be able to sign any cache without putting in any extra effort.

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9 hours ago, MtnGoat50 said:

I like the idea of an attribute more than a new cache type.

 

I'm probably the only one that feels this way but what I'd really like is for challenge caches to be brought in line with every other physical cache  type. Make the challenge optional (like any other ALR). Find the cache, sign the log, log your "found it" online. If you complete the challenge, great, you get recognized on the cache page for the accomplishment (like a Hall of Fame or Honor Roll cache). 

 


This is how the Challenge Stars system works  -- there is an actual Challenge Completed log type, that you log when you have completed the Challenge requirements.   Which may or may not be at the same time that you have located the container and signed the log (for which the normal Found It log can be used, by anyone who signs).     By separating the Find from the Challenge you solve many issues, including two from this thread:

 

Quote

 

We organize geocaching camps for children and it is difficult to explain to them that they cannot log this cache

because they do not meet the conditions and at the same time it is a type of mystery. If the challenge cache

were separated by an icon, it would definitely be clearer.

 

 

Quote

it's bad enough now with PM muggles-with-apps logging challenges without knowing what they are.

 

The other half of the solution is Challenge Stars which work like D and T and are assigned to every cache.  This solves all the searching and filtering issues including two mentioned in this thread:

 

Quote

the website search tools don't have a way of excluding caches with "challenge" in the title.

Quote

if your goal is to search for Mystery caches that aren't challenges (usually puzzles) then you're out of luck

 

Don't want to see Challenges? Set the filter to 0 Challenge Stars.


As mentioned, this has been hashed and rehashed so many times and no one ever is able to refute the viability of these suggestions with anything other than "It is hard to do"


It is not.

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1 hour ago, frinklabs said:

As mentioned, this has been hashed and rehashed so many times and no one ever is able to refute the viability of these suggestions with anything other than "It is hard to do"


It is not.

 

You know (or at least you should know) that the issue has nothing to do with technical difficulty.

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On 6/29/2020 at 7:59 PM, L0ne.R said:

They should be a traditional, since they are at the posted coordinates, with a challenge attribute. But that would upset the icon collectors. 

 

Challenge caches are not always at the posted coordinates. A challenge may have bogus coordinates if the final coordinate is mentioned in the description.

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13 hours ago, MtnGoat50 said:

I like the idea of an attribute more than a new cache type.

 

I'm probably the only one that feels this way but what I'd really like is for challenge caches to be brought in line with every other physical cache  type. Make the challenge optional (like any other ALR). Find the cache, sign the log, log your "found it" online. If you complete the challenge, great, you get recognized on the cache page for the accomplishment (like a Hall of Fame or Honor Roll cache). 

I find challenges even if I don't qualify, sign the log, but log a note. If you are so keep to log it, do that. No need to log a find. Then one day if I qualify I log a find. I like challenges, but if anyone could claim a find without doing the challenge it would cheapen other people's effort and make their effort worthless. Some challenge caches take a lot of effort. The toughest I have done, was to log a cache in every state and territory in Australia in one calendar year. I drove over 12,000kms to complete that (sigh, in the days when the state borders were open); plus took the ferry to Tasmania. I would not appreciate if all someone had to do was take a walk (if they lived nearby), and sign the log to get a find. What use then for others going to the effort?

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5 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I find challenges even if I don't qualify, sign the log, but log a note. If you are so keep to log it, do that. No need to log a find. Then one day if I qualify I log a find. I like challenges, but if anyone could claim a find without doing the challenge it would cheapen other people's effort and make their effort worthless. Some challenge caches take a lot of effort. The toughest I have done, was to log a cache in every state and territory in Australia in one calendar year. I drove over 12,000kms to complete that (sigh, in the days when the state borders were open); plus took the ferry to Tasmania. I would not appreciate if all someone had to do was take a walk (if they lived nearby), and sign the log to get a find. What use then for others going to the effort?

 

 

The Challenge Stars system fixes, and even enhances this.
 

The current (weak) system conflates the meaning of the Found It log to represent two (possibly temporally) different events.

Add the Challenge Completed log type, which would only used by those who have completed the requirements of the challenge.   The Found It log type would be used by those who have signed the log.  Those who have log both will have their efforts recognized, in proportion to the difficulty of the cache.   The Challenge Stars present an opportunity to quantify and recognize the effort to complete (as opposed to the current monolithic conflated Found It).

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1 hour ago, frinklabs said:

The current (weak) system conflates the meaning of the Found It log to represent two (possibly temporally) different events.

You could use the same logic to argue for being able to log a find because you went to GZ for a EarthCache, and then award an "EarthCache Star" to people who complete the EarthCache requirements. But going to GZ isn't the point of EarthCaches, and signing the log isn't the point of Challenge Caches.

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6 minutes ago, dprovan said:

You could use the same logic to argue for being able to log a find because you went to GZ for a EarthCache, and then award an "EarthCache Star" to people who complete the EarthCache requirements. But going to GZ isn't the point of EarthCaches, and signing the log isn't the point of Challenge Caches.

 

Not really, since the only goal to complete an Earthcache is to complete the requirements (visit and answer questions), whereas for a Challenge Cache the qualification is an ALR on top of signing the log sheet. EC's don't have an ALR. The challenge cache is the only physical type with an ALR. That's the distinction. People want to log it found because they signed the log. But you can't until you also qualify. The two can be done in any order, but the Find can only be claimed when both are done.  It's a unique setup.

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1 hour ago, dprovan said:

You could use the same logic to argue for being able to log a find because you went to GZ for a EarthCache, and then award an "EarthCache Star" to people who complete the EarthCache requirements. But going to GZ isn't the point of EarthCaches, and signing the log isn't the point of Challenge Caches.

Or puzzle caches.  Add the new Puzzle Completed log type for those that like puzzles...  I mean, why have anything other than Traditional caches with extra log types to "add" to the game.

 

There really isn't any use "discussing" this with him, he will not hear anything against his idea (like any parent, he doesn't like to be told his baby is ugly) so that he can log any and every cache.  There have been long threads before with all sorts of arguments against, but he lumps them all into "it's too hard".

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52 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Add the new Puzzle Completed log type for those that like puzzles..

 

I am using notes for this purpose when I solve a good puzzle. I may try to find the cache later.

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6 hours ago, frinklabs said:

Add the Challenge Completed log type, which would only used by those who have completed the requirements of the challenge.   The Found It log type would be used by those who have signed the log.  Those who have log both will have their efforts recognized, in proportion to the difficulty of the cache.   The Challenge Stars present an opportunity to quantify and recognize the effort to complete (as opposed to the current monolithic conflated Found It).

 

In this scenario, what purpose does the physical cache actually serve? It's now completely divorced from the challenge. You might just as well have a completely separate virtual entity that you log Challenge Completed on when you qualify and that's it. For me, and the sort of challenge caches I enjoy doing, it doesn't sound anywhere near as much fun or as enticing.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Jester said:

There really isn't any use "discussing" this with him, he will not hear anything against his idea (like any parent, he doesn't like to be told his baby is ugly) so that he can log any and every cache.  There have been long threads before with all sorts of arguments against, but he lumps them all into "it's too hard".

 

He awaits legitimate addressable objections. 

He suggests reading the original thread to see how the system evolved from somone else's idea to its current state through (constructive, directed) feedback from other users.


He also wonders why someone would visit his intentions without checking the public record first.  Since they clearly show that his quality-over-quantity caching style refutes the allegation, he would be embarrassed for those who made it.
 

He doesn't want to derail this thread so he looks forward to presentation of the one of these alleged "all sorts of arguments against" which is most on-topic to the OP.

 

Edited by frinklabs
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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

 

In this scenario, what purpose does the physical cache actually serve? It's now completely divorced from the challenge. You might just as well have a completely separate virtual entity that you log Challenge Completed on when you qualify and that's it. For me, and the sort of challenge caches I enjoy doing, it doesn't sound anywhere near as much fun or as enticing.

 

The virtual entity you are describing was the failed Challenges system that was poorly deployed and supported.   This system does not disconnect the challenge from a physical location and container.
 

The key to this system is that you are not awarded the Challenge Stars until you log both the Found It and the Challenge Completed.
 

Even if they implemented this system, all my Challenge Completed logs would still be simultaneous with the Found It.   And that is because a big part of the gratification of the challenge is the final hide. 

I find that, so far, really good challenges have had hides and containers and locations that matched.   Making the hike and search gives you time to reflect on everything you had to do to get there in the first place.  

Pro tip: Try not to be mentally composing your log at this time or you will lose critical situational awareness.

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5 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

In this scenario, what purpose does the physical cache actually serve? It's now completely divorced from the challenge.

 

And that is the concern from people who don't like challenges, but like to find geocaches and log them found. 

 

5 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

You might just as well have a completely separate virtual entity that you log Challenge Completed on when you qualify and that's it.

 

If challenge caches didn't have a physical container, then sure. But they do. So the compromise is to have all elements of the geocache relevant to the geocaches (D, T, icon, etc) and anything relevant to the challenge distinct (C* rating, completion log) yet still tied to the geocaches (since it is a type of a geocache) in that you have to sign it to complete the challenge cache. Having these parts distinct allows people who find geocaches and log them found without concern over the ALR, but one wants to earn the recognition of completing the challenge, now they do that without affecting geocache-specific properties. Type, D and T are for the geocache, C is for the challenge ALR difficulty.  That is the intent of the C* concept. Find log "earns" you the listing stats (and physical caches can be better described by their actual cache type), and whether qualification is a new log or a toggle on a Find log, in conjunction with each other that is what "earns" you the challenge stars.

And if a geocacher doesn't care about "earning" any cache properties statistically, there's no difference than how everything is right now. And it's easy to ignore challenges without ignoring physical caches you may want to find. But as mentioned, all of this has been mentioned and discussed (relatively productively) in that dedicated thread. 

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34 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

If challenge caches didn't have a physical container, then sure. But they do. So the compromise is to have all elements of the geocache relevant to the geocaches (D, T, icon, etc) and anything relevant to the challenge distinct (C* rating, completion log) yet still tied to the geocaches (since it is a type of a geocache) in that you have to sign it to complete the challenge cache. Having these parts distinct allows people who find geocaches and log them found without concern over the ALR, but one wants to earn the recognition of completing the challenge, now they do that without affecting geocache-specific properties. Type, D and T are for the geocache, C is for the challenge ALR difficulty.  That is the intent of the C* concept. Find log "earns" you the listing stats (and physical caches can be better described by their actual cache type), and whether qualification is a new log or a toggle on a Find log, in conjunction with each other that is what "earns" you the challenge stars.

And if a geocacher doesn't care about "earning" any cache properties statistically, there's no difference than how everything is right now. And it's easy to ignore challenges without ignoring physical caches you may want to find. But as mentioned, all of this has been mentioned and discussed (relatively productively) in that dedicated thread. 

 

I can only speak from the context of the handful of challenges I've done (or would like to do) and the two challenges I own (GC752YF and GC8DQXK), but really the whole point of those caches is the combination of the challenge qualification and the physical challenge of getting to the cache and signing the log. In the case of my two and some of the ones I've done or aspire to do, the two challenges are interwoven, for example in my Nemophilist Challenge, the physical challenges and rewards one would encounter in getting to GZ are mirrored in the qualification requirements (agility, endurance, sure-footedness, watchfulness and awe). For me, the sense of accomplishment I get from qualifying and signing the log outweighs the sum of its parts and that would be dimished if it counted as a find just for signing the log, with satisfying the challenge just a bonus point on top. Likewise as a CO, I'd expect if that were the case, the majority of finders would just go for the +1 smiley of finding the cache and only the true diehards and the prequalifiers would bother with the challenge. To a large part it'd take away the whole point of the challenge cache, which for mine is in part to encourage people to go out and find those caches that take a fair bit of time and effort, and I probably would have just made those two multis, puzzles or traditionals and not bothered with the challenge. I guess it's the same reason I'd create a multi instead of a series of traditionals -  the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and it's an all-or-nothing outcome that requires commitment to achieve.

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