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beny258

Challenge cache type

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1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

And that is the concern from people who don't like challenges, but like to find geocaches and log them found. 

I could write, "And that is the concern from people who don't like puzzles/multis/earthcaches, but like to find geocaches and log them found. Earthcaches most closely correspond, as if someone 'stumbles' upon a multi or puzzle they can log it. However, if you don't do what is required for the Earthcache, you can't log a find, which is the same with a challenge. However with those who just want to log caches, they could argue that those multicaches and puzzles are taking up room where an easy to log traditional could be, and unless they solve them, they can't log them, and all the little dears want to be able to do is log a cache :cry:.

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7 hours ago, frinklabs said:

 

He awaits legitimate addressable objections. 

He suggests reading the original thread to see how the system evolved from somone else's idea to its current state through (constructive, directed) feedback from other users.


He also wonders why someone would visit his intentions without checking the public record first.  Since they clearly show that his quality-over-quantity caching style refutes the allegation, he would be embarrassed for those who made it.
 

He doesn't want to derail this thread so he looks forward to presentation of the one of these alleged "all sorts of arguments against" which is most on-topic to the OP.

 

I was involved with the original thread years ago (before you broke it off into it own thread) where this idea originated.  Every objection to it was either repeatable glossed with 'this system solves that' (no matter how many showed where it didn't) or was ignored so that we are here where you dismiss any and all objections as not being "legitimate addressable objections."  

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2 hours ago, The Jester said:

I was involved with the original thread years ago (before you broke it off into it own thread) where this idea originated.  Every objection to it was either repeatable glossed with 'this system solves that' (no matter how many showed where it didn't) or was ignored so that we are here where you dismiss any and all objections as not being "legitimate addressable objections."  

 

I was as well.  The objections were generally reasonable and well-thought-out.  It's notable that in this thread the same dismissive behavior has resurfaced.

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10 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

For me, the sense of accomplishment I get from qualifying and signing the log outweighs the sum of its parts and that would be dimished if it counted as a find just for signing the log, with satisfying the challenge just a bonus point on top. Likewise as a CO, I'd expect if that were the case, the majority of finders would just go for the +1 smiley of finding the cache and only the true diehards and the prequalifiers would bother with the challenge. To a large part it'd take away the whole point of the challenge cache,

Absolutely. But think about the perspective of those who don't care about challenges and just want to find geocaches. They can't see why they should have to qualify for a challenge just to log the geocache they found and signed as found on their account. Right now, we have to tell them - who cares about your online stats, just mark it somehow as found and add it to your ignore list. That's pretty one-sided from their perspective. The ALR is something they don't care about. But as you say, if they could just log it found all things being equal, it reduces the value of the entirety of the completion for those who do complete the challenge as well. That's why the stars for challenges are distinct. People who care about challenges will have a record that they qualified for the challenge, not merely found another geocache.  The fact that they found the geocache will be recorded in their stats; the fact that you found it and qualified for the challenge is recorded in your stats. No one loses out.

 

10 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

To a large part it'd take away the whole point of the challenge cache, which for mine is in part to encourage people to go out and find those caches that take a fair bit of time and effort

Sure, but note that it's for you. Not necessarily for others. The intent of the feature idea was instead to see if there might be a solution that didn't involve merely "just suck it up" for someone who had an issue with a certain gameplay mechanic. That thread was the result. Personally, I don't expect the feature to ever come into play. But, I'd rather have the discussion (and potentially raise new ideas for HQ) than just be dismissive.

 

As someone who loves challenge caching, I actually like the idea of having challenges more tangible; clarifying the D and T ratings which many disagree about how to use when it comes to challenge cache listings, and having a native manner of tracking challenge listings that's not by 'bookkeeping' the title text and type. :)  That thread is filled with suggestions and comments from people over years of challenge caching, tracking the most common suggestions - a new cache type, or a new attribute - and discussing benefits and drawbacks.

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10 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

I could write, "And that is the concern from people who don't like puzzles/multis/earthcaches, but like to find geocaches and log them found. Earthcaches most closely correspond, as if someone 'stumbles' upon a multi or puzzle they can log it. However, if you don't do what is required for the Earthcache, you can't log a find, which is the same with a challenge. However with those who just want to log caches, they could argue that those multicaches and puzzles are taking up room where an easy to log traditional could be, and unless they solve them, they can't log them, and all the little dears want to be able to do is log a cache :cry:.

 

We're talking physical geocaches. In every other instance, if you find the (final) geocache and sign it, you can log it online (even if you do nothing else with the listing). The challenge cache is the exception due to the additional logging requirement of qualifying for the challenge. I'm fine with the system as is, but I'm also fine with discussing ways to improve the challenge caching aspect of geocaching, both for those who love them (like myself) and those who despise them. :P 

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I went back and read the original thread and maybe the reason I am so "dismissive" (besides my lack of tact, diplomacy or a verbal filter) is that the discussion there was obfuscated by several now-banned pedants.

 

From there, this:
 

Quote

"Challenge caches" are ALRs. ALRs aren't supposed to exist. Groundspeak got lazy and used this good, pleasing, interesting, challenging idea and stuck it where it doesn't fit. They took a square peg and put it in a knife fight. (Failed mixing of metaphors to say it was a bad fit where it shouldn't be anyway? meh, I tried...)

 

Any time I link the Challenge Stars thread, it is to address a specifically-stated objection or suggestion.  

 

Many times this turns into a debate regarding the fallout of the dogmatic contradiction of an officially-sanctioned ALR within the framework of a system whose rules do not allow ALRs.

 

I never seem to get any feedback regarding the C* system itself, other than generalized "change is scary/bad/difficult" and "it is fine the way it is now".

 

What's the fatal flaw?

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On 6/21/2020 at 10:10 PM, beny258 said:

I find challenge caches interesting but I don't understand why they don't have their own type and icon.

 

Please don't do it and I tell you why: many geocachers I know are collectors - they want to find many different icons (that's why the two last ape caches are so important) and they want to hide many different icons. So if we had a new icon (what ever it is) suddenly many caches of this type would be published. So I am sure if we created a new challenge cache icon we would get many more of these challenges - and I am sure that there wouldn't be good ideas only but many "useless challenges" and doubled ideas. It's only about the icons.

 

There were times in which challenges were rare - I liked them. Usually it were simple ideas not to easy to fulfill. Nowadays challenges are everywhere and most of them are boring others are simple "look what I have done" challenges.

 

Most challenge caches are statistic challenges only. And with the "new" challenge guidelines (which took away the possibility to create creative ones) it is even more that way.

 

So you are right: challenges have nothing in common with the regular mystery cache. But instead of giving them a new icon just get rid of them. Geocaching is no competetive sports and it shouldn't be seen as that (I can do something and you can't.)

 

Just my humble opinion of course!

Jochen

 

PS: With "some" founds I fulfill many challenge caches and so I do them to boost my statistics giving me the opportunity to find more challenge caches. Yeah, I am so proud of myself! :-)

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2 hours ago, frinklabs said:

I never seem to get any feedback regarding the C* system itself, other than generalized "change is scary/bad/difficult" and "it is fine the way it is now".

What's the fatal flaw?

 

It's odd that all these years, I've never heard anyone actually say this...    :D

To me, it seems when folks claim this, it's more a disgruntled response deriding others who simply aren't interested...   

No offense, but lack of interest doesn't mean it's fear or obliviousness.  :)

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29 minutes ago, frostengel said:

There were times in which challenges were rare - I liked them. Usually it were simple ideas not to easy to fulfill. Nowadays challenges are everywhere and most of them are boring others are simple "look what I have done" challenges.

 

These are all the challenge caches in my region:

 

image.png.15cfa589cf94b3b7907c01683301e2d3.png

 

Yep, all two of them and they're both mine. Of the five challenges I've found, one was in Gloucester, over 200km from home, and the others were in the Watagan Mountains or Newcastle region, both over an hour's driving away.

 

34 minutes ago, frostengel said:

Most challenge caches are statistic challenges only. And with the "new" challenge guidelines (which took away the possibility to create creative ones) it is even more that way.

 

 

I thought my Nemophilist Challenge, published last year, was reasonably creative, or at least some others seemed to think so. It goes a little beyond the more common streaks, calendar-filling and grid-filling ones anyway.

 

Further afield, there are challenges I'll never qualify for, just as there are other non-challenge caches I'll never be able to find such a scuba-required ones, abseiling ones, those T4+ ones that are beyond my aging body's ability and the many puzzle caches I'll probably never be able to crack. That doesn't bother me, I'm under no obligation to find them all. If there's an unfound challenge cache taunting me on the map, I can either try to qualify for it or ignore it. Simple.

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1 hour ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I thought my Nemophilist Challenge, published last year, was reasonably creative, or at least some others seemed to think so. It goes a little beyond the more common streaks, calendar-filling and grid-filling ones anyway.

 

Indeed it was creative.  Tomorrow morning (12 hours from now), the beginning of my own challenge cache trail will be published, and it includes a Nemophilist Challenge, with FULL credit to you, barefootjeff.

 

So yeah, I love challenge caches.  And among other reasons for not monkeying with them, switching challenges to their own cache type will cause me to become UNqualified for many challenges I'm qualified for today.  Retroactive changes are hard.  Who would spade through them and make the edits?  Cache owners cannot change their cache type after publication, and a robot cannot simply change the type for every mystery cache with the word "challenge" in the name, because there are plenty of those that are not true challenge caches (e.g. "My Puzzle Challenge").

 

Count me in the "add an attribute" camp.

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11 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Absolutely. But think about the perspective of those who don't care about challenges and just want to find geocaches. They can't see why they should have to qualify for a challenge just to log the geocache they found and signed as found on their account. Right now, we have to tell them - who cares about your online stats, just mark it somehow as found and add it to your ignore list. That's pretty one-sided from their perspective. The ALR is something they don't care about. But as you say, if they could just log it found all things being equal, it reduces the value of the entirety of the completion for those who do complete the challenge as well. That's why the stars for challenges are distinct. People who care about challenges will have a record that they qualified for the challenge, not merely found another geocache.  The fact that they found the geocache will be recorded in their stats; the fact that you found it and qualified for the challenge is recorded in your stats. No one loses out.

 

By the same reasoning, puzzle caches should have the final coordinates visible for those who just want a smiley for finding the container, with a separate "Solved It!" log for those who solve the puzzle. Or the same for multis, where you can just go straight to the final for your +1 or visit all the waypoints so you get your extra "Visited Waypoints!" log.

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5 hours ago, frostengel said:

So you are right: challenges have nothing in common with the regular mystery cache.

So what is a "regular mystery cache"?  Mystery Cache is a category for caches that don't fit another category.  "Regular mystery cache" is a meaningless term.

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4 hours ago, The Leprechauns said:

 

So yeah, I love challenge caches.  And among other reasons for not monkeying with them, switching challenges to their own cache type will cause me to become UNqualified for many challenges I'm qualified for today.  Retroactive changes are hard.  Who would spade through them and make the edits?  Cache owners cannot change their cache type after publication, and a robot cannot simply change the type for every mystery cache with the word "challenge" in the name, because there are plenty of those that are not true challenge caches (e.g. "My Puzzle Challenge").

 

Count me in the "add an attribute" camp.

Both of your arguments aren't a issue for a challenge cache type.

 

The type would be most likely a sub category of mystery cache like Geocaching HQ so no change to your qualifications of previous challenges.

 

Project GC already maintains a complete list of challenges pre- and most-moratorium so it will be easy to make the switch of cache type.

 

Count me in the "add a challenge cache type" camp. It's much easier to filter than an attribute.

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8 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

These are all the challenge caches in my region:

 

Perhaps it is just a German problem? See image below. And there are areas where challenge caches are even much higher concentrated.

 

It used to be one challenge "fill up the 366 days matrix". Nowadays the owners tend to make 12 challenges of it: fill January, fill February....

It used to be the challenge to "fill up the 81 difficulty/terrain rating". Nowadays it is fill it twich, three times, 13 times (and more).

...

 

We have quite a nice challenge here. It's a time travel thing (old guidelines) where you have to find cache A before cache B but at a later clock time (possible by time change or caching in different time zones). That's creative. But what is creative about "find 4000 traditional caches", "fill up your 81 matrix 13 times" or "fill up the 81 matrix in one day" - and these are all real examples.

Challenges.png

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16 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Absolutely. But think about the perspective of those who don't care about challenges and just want to find geocaches. They can't see why they should have to qualify for a challenge just to log the geocache they found and signed as found on their account. Right now, we have to tell them - who cares about your online stats, just mark it somehow as found and add it to your ignore list. That's pretty one-sided from their perspective. The ALR is something they don't care about. But as you say, if they could just log it found all things being equal, it reduces the value of the entirety of the completion for those who do complete the challenge as well. That's why the stars for challenges are distinct. People who care about challenges will have a record that they qualified for the challenge, not merely found another geocache.  The fact that they found the geocache will be recorded in their stats; the fact that you found it and qualified for the challenge is recorded in your stats. No one loses out.

 

So we need to consider those who don't like the rules.  Really?  It's not that they "can't see why" - It's that they want to find every cache and not have to follow the rules (Challenge Caches are Mystery Caches, so they had to read the cache page so they know what the rules are - if nothing more then to find out where the CC is hidden, not all are at the listed co-ords).  Nobody is saying "who cares about your online stats", we're are saying various types of caches have their own set of rules that must be followed.  If they can't/won't accept that, that's on them not on us to change things for them.  They are a very, very small percent of cachers, why should they get special treatment?  That pretty one-sided from my perspective.  There's an active thread about re-signing a cache for another +1 ("revisit" log & stat) from someone who doesn't see why they should have to find another cache to get a +1.  Over the years, there have been many who wanted to sign their own hides as finds, for the +1.  Both of these have been ruled out in the recent past - but shouldn't we be catering to them also?

 

And the argument that "multi/puzzles can be found accidentally and then logged, but Challenges can't" doesn't really factor in to this discussion as those of two very different things.  Finding a cache accidentally is very different from going to a cache you know you can't log online, signing it and then complain it can't be logged online.  Not all accidental finds can be logged.  There can be several reasons why an accidental find can never be logged.  Archived & locked or an unpublished cache (a friend did that looking of one of mine years ago, scored a nice ammo can that never did get listed) are two cases where they can never be logged - if they start complaining do we set up a way for them to get their +1?

 

If we have to cater to those who insist CC's have to be logged by anyone, why have any restrictions on any cache type?  I personally don't do well at solving the harder puzzles (I can come up with some good ones - sometimes from attempts to solve a puzzle: "hmm,  didn't work, but that's a great idea for my own puzzle cache"), so should I start a campaign to change them so I can still get my +1 for logging them without solving the puzzle?  It's the same mentality - "I don't like what I have to do for this cache, so let's change things so I can log it my way".

 

I've always thought that what you need to qualify for a Challenge Cache isn't really an "Additional Logging Requirement" (yes, I know that's how the guidelines refer to it) but a "Pre Logging Requirement" (PLR) - more in line with "qualify for the Challenge" - but doesn't have the negative vibes that ALR's now have.  But that's what Challenge Caches have, so if it's "something you don't care about" then bypass the cache.  As often said "you don't have to find them all."  But if that's what you have to do then learn to SCUBA dive, climb trees, mountain climb, reppel, solve puzzles and qualify for CC's - but don't complain and make us change things because you aren't willing or don't like something that needs to done for a cache.

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11 minutes ago, The Jester said:

So we need to consider those who don't like the rules.  Really?  It's not that they "can't see why" - It's that they want to find every cache and not have to follow the rules (Challenge Caches are Mystery Caches, so they had to read the cache page so they know what the rules are - if nothing more then to find out where the CC is hidden, not all are at the listed co-ords).  Nobody is saying "who cares about your online stats", we're are saying various types of caches have their own set of rules that must be followed.  If they can't/won't accept that, that's on them not on us to change things for them.  They are a very, very small percent of cachers, why should they get special treatment?  That pretty one-sided from my perspective.  There's an active thread about re-signing a cache for another +1 ("revisit" log & stat) from someone who doesn't see why they should have to find another cache to get a +1.  Over the years, there have been many who wanted to sign their own hides as finds, for the +1.  Both of these have been ruled out in the recent past - but shouldn't we be catering to them also?

 

And the argument that "multi/puzzles can be found accidentally and then logged, but Challenges can't" doesn't really factor in to this discussion as those of two very different things.  Finding a cache accidentally is very different from going to a cache you know you can't log online, signing it and then complain it can't be logged online.  Not all accidental finds can be logged.  There can be several reasons why an accidental find can never be logged.  Archived & locked or an unpublished cache (a friend did that looking of one of mine years ago, scored a nice ammo can that never did get listed) are two cases where they can never be logged - if they start complaining do we set up a way for them to get their +1?

 

If we have to cater to those who insist CC's have to be logged by anyone, why have any restrictions on any cache type?  I personally don't do well at solving the harder puzzles (I can come up with some good ones - sometimes from attempts to solve a puzzle: "hmm,  didn't work, but that's a great idea for my own puzzle cache"), so should I start a campaign to change them so I can still get my +1 for logging them without solving the puzzle?  It's the same mentality - "I don't like what I have to do for this cache, so let's change things so I can log it my way".

 

I've always thought that what you need to qualify for a Challenge Cache isn't really an "Additional Logging Requirement" (yes, I know that's how the guidelines refer to it) but a "Pre Logging Requirement" (PLR) - more in line with "qualify for the Challenge" - but doesn't have the negative vibes that ALR's now have.  But that's what Challenge Caches have, so if it's "something you don't care about" then bypass the cache.  As often said "you don't have to find them all."  But if that's what you have to do then learn to SCUBA dive, climb trees, mountain climb, reppel, solve puzzles and qualify for CC's - but don't complain and make us change things because you aren't willing or don't like something that needs to done for a cache.

Well put. Another comparison I could include is the person who found a cache, but didn't sign the log. They can in a similar way make an argument they found the cache, therefore they should be able to log their find without fulfilling that pesky thing, sign the log. Just a person is arguing they found the cache, so they should be able to claim a find without that pesky thing, meeting the challenge.

I like Challenge caches (and I do wish they had their own icon), but if anyone could sign and claim a find, I would lose interest in doing them, except as another traditional. It would 'kill' challenge caches if anyone who doesn't qualify could claim the find.

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17 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Sure, but note that it's for you. Not necessarily for others. The intent of the feature idea was instead to see if there might be a solution that didn't involve merely "just suck it up" for someone who had an issue with a certain gameplay mechanic. That thread was the result. Personally, I don't expect the feature to ever come into play. But, I'd rather have the discussion (and potentially raise new ideas for HQ) than just be dismissive.

 

 

(Sorry to make two posts for the reply, I haven't figured out how to split quotes these days)

Do we cater to the lowest common denominator because a small few have "an issue with a certain gameplay mechanic"?  I mentioned above I'm not good with puzzles - where is the solution for me that doesn't involve "just suck it up".  And how about if I "have an issue with the new gameplay mechanic" (i.e.. Challenge Stars), will I have to "just suck it up?"  Or will we change it again for me?  Somewhere you are going to have to draw the line and we have a pretty good line(s) drawn now:  "Qualify for the CC and log it" / "Solve the puzzle and log it" / "Do the physical <something> (climb, reppel, paddle boat, SCUBA) and log it".  Don't do <whatever> then you can't log it.

I'm with Jeff, the whole point of a Challenge Cache is to challenge people to take on the task(s) needed to qualify.  Separate that from the cache hide and you have ruined it.  Why would you even need a 'special' cache for a challenge, why not set it up so that you can claim any challenge you have qualified for when you log any cache - "oh, you've found the 'UVW cache' and qualified for the 'XYZ challenge', great collect your stars when you log it."  It just doesn't have the same feel as when you have to do the qualifying before you can log a cache.

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55 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

Perhaps it is just a German problem? See image below. And there are areas where challenge caches are even much higher concentrated.

 

It used to be one challenge "fill up the 366 days matrix". Nowadays the owners tend to make 12 challenges of it: fill January, fill February....

It used to be the challenge to "fill up the 81 difficulty/terrain rating". Nowadays it is fill it twich, three times, 13 times (and more).

...

 

We have quite a nice challenge here. It's a time travel thing (old guidelines) where you have to find cache A before cache B but at a later clock time (possible by time change or caching in different time zones). That's creative. But what is creative about "find 4000 traditional caches", "fill up your 81 matrix 13 times" or "fill up the 81 matrix in one day" - and these are all real examples.

Challenges.png

But how many other caches are in that same area?  I'm betting those aren't the only caches around.  What is the percentage of caches in a region that are Challenge Caches is a better metric.  Within 25 miles of me there are 4320 caches I haven't found, of those only 57 are Challenge Caches, or about 1.3 percent (there's another 1585 active caches I have found, with 17 of those CC's, or just under 1.1 percent - combined about 1.2 percent).  Even if I were in the "hate CC" camp, that not many caches to complain about.

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5 minutes ago, The Jester said:

But how many other caches are in that same area? 

Just a few :)

 

image.png

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16 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I like Challenge caches (and I do wish they had their own icon), but if anyone could sign and claim a find, I would lose interest in doing them, except as another traditional. It would 'kill' challenge caches if anyone who doesn't qualify could claim the find.

 

It probably wouldn't affect my interest in doing them, as I'd likely still want to jump through the hoops of qualifying before venturing out to GZ, just as I want to solve a puzzle or find all the waypoints in a multi (even if I need some help) rather than be handed the coordinates of the final, but it would change how I'd feel about owning them. Creating my two challenges took a lot of work, weaving the theme around the challenge, the location and the container as well as setting the qualification bars to find the middle ground between the prequalifiers and never-qualifiers in my region, but if they were to just become effectively a traditional with a bonus qualification reward I doubt I'd bother. Then there'd be none in my region instead of two.

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5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

It probably wouldn't affect my interest in doing them, as I'd likely still want to jump through the hoops of qualifying before venturing out to GZ, just as I want to solve a puzzle or find all the waypoints in a multi (even if I need some help) rather than be handed the coordinates of the final, but it would change how I'd feel about owning them. Creating my two challenges took a lot of work, weaving the theme around the challenge, the location and the container as well as setting the qualification bars to find the middle ground between the prequalifiers and never-qualifiers in my region, but if they were to just become effectively a traditional with a bonus qualification reward I doubt I'd bother. Then there'd be none in my region instead of two.

The difference with a Challenge is that the final coordinates are shown; with multis and puzzles they aren't, so they aren't as easy to claim without the effort. (Unless you accidentally find them, as I have a few times. Rescued one and rehid it.)

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15 minutes ago, The Jester said:

But how many other caches are in that same area?  I'm betting those aren't the only caches around.  What is the percentage of caches in a region that are Challenge Caches is a better metric.

 

 About 1.55 %. This means that almost any 60th cache is a challenge. I think that is too much.

 

Just in comparison: there are less then 500 multi caches. That's a normal cache type and challenges aren't in my eyes - they should be something rare. The factor should be more than 10 times the number, it is about 8.

 

The main problem is that there aren't 57 good challenge ideas - but there are 57 challenge caches. The good ideas would make some great (let's say) 5 challenge caches in the area...

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14 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

 About 1.55 %. This means that almost any 60th cache is a challenge. I think that is too much.

 

Just in comparison: there are less then 500 multi caches. That's a normal cache type and challenges aren't in my eyes - they should be something rare. The factor should be more than 10 times the number, it is about 8.

 

The main problem is that there aren't 57 good challenge ideas - but there are 57 challenge caches. The good ideas would make some great (let's say) 5 challenge caches in the area...

 

This is the breakdown for the 552 caches in my region (NSW Central Coast, Australia):

  • Traditional:                        351 (64%)
  • Non-challenge Mystery: 132  (24%)
  • Multi:                                   52  (9%)
  • EarthCache:                       10  (2%)
  • Virtual                                   3  (0.5%)
  • Letterbox hybrid                  2  (0.4%)
  • Challenge                             2  (0.4%)

 

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13 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

 About 1.55 %. This means that almost any 60th cache is a challenge. I think that is too much.

 

Just in comparison: there are less then 500 multi caches. That's a normal cache type and challenges aren't in my eyes - they should be something rare. The factor should be more than 10 times the number, it is about 8.

 

The main problem is that there aren't 57 good challenge ideas - but there are 57 challenge caches. The good ideas would make some great (let's say) 5 challenge caches in the area...

I guess I can't understand why a very small handful of caches bothers you so much, when there are over 3600 others for you to find (if I did my math right).  I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that way (feeling are what they are, neither right nor wrong), I just don't understand it.  I have way more than that in puzzles I'll never solve/find/like, but I don't think they should be gotten rid of.

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1 hour ago, The Jester said:

I guess I can't understand why a very small handful of caches bothers you so much, when there are over 3600 others for you to find (if I did my math right).  I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that way (feeling are what they are, neither right nor wrong), I just don't understand it.

 

In fact I have no problemes with them - it's right that there are enough caches everywhere. And even more I go and seek those challenge caches - I (as many others) like the fact that my statistics gets a little boost. Project 81, filled up 10 times is an easy to reach difficulty 5 cache for me - yeah! :-)

 

But the hobby gets a statistics hobby at several sides and that's what I don't like. Just one example: I have some high terrain caches. I like to do those and I am happy to provide cachers who like to do those, too. And it is the same with the challenges: for those who don't want to do those there is enough simple caches. But when geocachers are coming and they just want to get the find because of their statistics (and I can read this from the logs - had some lately) I am not really happy about it.

 

I'd like the whole great hobby to get a little away from numbers, numbers, numbers and challenges are in fact one way to get it even closer to it.

 

It is okay as it is now (too many but still okay) but as soon as challenges get their own icon there will be plenty more here - many cachers will want to own such a rare (????) icon! No! So better leave it as it is actually, no unique icon please! That's what I want to say!

 

Best wishes

Jochen

 

PS: Germans are crazy! You don't want to know how many "fishing caches" have been published here....

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20 minutes ago, frostengel said:

 

In fact I have no problemes with them - it's right that there are enough caches everywhere. And even more I go and seek those challenge caches - I (as many others) like the fact that my statistics gets a little boost. Project 81, filled up 10 times is an easy to reach difficulty 5 cache for me - yeah! :-)

 

But the hobby gets a statistics hobby at several sides and that's what I don't like. Just one example: I have some high terrain caches. I like to do those and I am happy to provide cachers who like to do those, too. And it is the same with the challenges: for those who don't want to do those there is enough simple caches. But when geocachers are coming and they just want to get the find because of their statistics (and I can read this from the logs - had some lately) I am not really happy about it.

 

I'd like the whole great hobby to get a little away from numbers, numbers, numbers and challenges are in fact one way to get it even closer to it.

 

It is okay as it is now (too many but still okay) but as soon as challenges get their own icon there will be plenty more here - many cachers will want to own such a rare (????) icon! No! So better leave it as it is actually, no unique icon please! That's what I want to say!

 

Best wishes

Jochen

 

PS: Germans are crazy! You don't want to know how many "fishing caches" have been published here....

I agree, Challenge caches having their own icon would be great, especially if past challenge caches could be included in that. As for people signing challenge caches when they don't qualify, if it's obvious they don't qualify (say find 500 puzzle caches and they have found ten) I would delete them without even bothering to contact them. But if someone might have qualified, I would send a message asking for their proof of qualifying, before considering deleting. Just as people claiming a find without a signature on a log, and no explanation from them, should be deleted.

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27 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

But if someone might have qualified, I would send a message asking for their proof of qualifying, before considering deleting. Just as people claiming a find without a signature on a log, and no explanation from them, should be deleted.

I found that stupid but according to guidelines they don't have to provide a proof of their qualifications. You have to check for them....

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30 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I agree, Challenge caches having their own icon would be great, especially if past challenge caches could be included in that. As for people signing challenge caches when they don't qualify, if it's obvious they don't qualify (say find 500 puzzle caches and they have found ten) I would delete them without even bothering to contact them. But if someone might have qualified, I would send a message asking for their proof of qualifying, before considering deleting. Just as people claiming a find without a signature on a log, and no explanation from them, should be deleted.

 

I'm a bit more gentle:

 

image.png.4b2955a4ee43b6deea14279b7f86ce73.png

 

No reply, they just deleted their log entirely, so I don't know whether they were appreciative or peeved.

 

It'd probably help if the Help Centre had something about challenge caches in the find-a-cache section instead of it all being in the hide-a-cache section that beginners are unlikely to look at.

 

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3 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I'm a bit more gentle:

 

image.png.4b2955a4ee43b6deea14279b7f86ce73.png

 

No reply, they just deleted their log entirely, so I don't know whether they were appreciative or peeved.

 

It'd probably help if the Help Centre had something about challenge caches in the find-a-cache section instead of it all being in the hide-a-cache section that beginners are unlikely to look at.

 

That's a nice reply. If a challenge cache had lots of non-qualifying logs, it would be good to keep a copy of that, for a paste and send. I don't have any challenge caches, so I haven't had this problem, so really any answer from me is speculating what I might do. However, it's under the puzzle icon, not a traditional, so that should make people more aware this is not a standard cache.

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36 minutes ago, Lynx Humble said:

I found that stupid but according to guidelines they don't have to provide a proof of their qualifications. You have to check for them....

Don't challenge caches these days have to have a checker? The ones I have done recently have all had checkers. Everyone I have seen log them has supplied a copy of that. The COs have also supplied a copy to show that they qualify.

From geocaching:

  • Challenge owners will need to make sure that cachers can show that they have completed the cache requirements without compromising their privacy.
  • Challenge cache owners must show that they have met the challenge.

 

I interpret that to mean that the cacher is expected to show they have completed the challenge, or be asked to prove they meet the challenge. As in, quoting, "Challenge owners will need to make sure that cachers can show that they have completed the cache requirements". It says the "cachers can show", not the CO.  As long at it doesn't comprise their privacy.

Edited by Goldenwattle

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I interpret that to mean that the cacher is expected to show they have completed the challenge, or be asked to prove they meet the challenge. As in, quoting, "Challenge owners will need to make sure that cachers can show that they have completed the cache requirements". It says the "cachers can show", not the CO.  As long at it doesn't comprise their privacy.

 

Section 7 below that says:

 

Quote

For cache pages published after April 21, 2015 with a challenge checker, the owner can confirm the finder's qualification with the checker when the cache is logged as found. No further documentation is required from the finder.

 

On post-moratorium challenges, it's up to the CO to confirm a finder is qualified and we can't require the finder to prove they have.

Edited by barefootjeff

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6 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

post-moratorium challenges

I have no idea what that means. What after a prohibition?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

On post-moratorium challenges, it's up to the CO to confirm a finder is qualified and we can't require the finder to prove they have.

 

And then we get to the point where cachers hide their stats and doesn't share data with API partners. How does a CO check the qualification then?

 

Edited by on4bam
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Just now, Goldenwattle said:

I have no idea what that means. What after a prohibition?

 

There was a moratorium on the publication of challenge caches from 2015 to 2016, during which time the current guidelines were formulated and the requirement for a checker was added.

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2 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

There was a moratorium on the publication of challenge caches from 2015 to 2016, during which time the current guidelines were formulated and the requirement for a checker was added.

So only on challenges after the moratorium (post) the CO has to confirm the finder qualifies. Makes no sense.

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Just now, Goldenwattle said:

So only on challenges after the moratorium (post) the CO has to confirm the finder qualifies. Makes no sense.

 

That's right. On pre-moratorium challenges, the finder has to document their qualification, although a lot of pre-moratorium challenges now have checkers too so that just becomes a cut-and-paste from the checker output. The first challenge I completed, back in January 2015, I had to list my qualifying finds in my log. Luckily it only needed 15 of them.

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13 hours ago, frostengel said:

So if we had a new icon (what ever it is) suddenly many caches of this type would be published. So I am sure if we created a new challenge cache icon we would get many more of these challenges - and I am sure that there wouldn't be good ideas only but many "useless challenges" and doubled ideas. It's only about the icons.

 

1.  You're making an assumption that may or may not come to pass.  It's possible many caches of this type would be published.  It's also possible that many caches of this type wouldn't be published.

 

2. Seeing as how challenges have been reined in, "useless" challenges are pretty much prohibited now (spell your caching name for example) and I'm hoping that someone doesn't set a series of challenges out similar to "Find 10 caches, 20, 30, 40 , etc..." as those aren't really challenging "goals" to achieve, although it's certainly a possibility.  As to doubled challenges, that's certainly a possibility but there's no guarantee either that COs will blanket the area with already published challenge caches that measure the same thing.

 

52 minutes ago, frostengel said:

many cachers will want to own such a rare (????) icon!

 

As it is, enough cachers ignore challenges already so I'm not sure it's going to suddenly become the rock star of geocaching.  If you look at the map of your area (I think that's what GW posted), it seems that saturation will prevent a big part of what you think might happen. Since they were re-instituted in their current form, the number of new challenge caches has dropped in comparison to the pre-moratorium number of challenges being published.  There have been only 5 challenges published within 100 miles of my home coordinates, 6 if you include mine, since the advent of the new year.  Of the 63 puzzles, that makes up less than 10% of just puzzle caches.  Toss in another 117 other non-traditional caches and now we're down to 3% of all the non-traditional caches published.  Then we hit the big number - traditional caches.  884 published within 100 miles since the beginning of 2020.  That makes over 1000 caches total and puts the 6 challenges at just over .5%. That also puts the non-traditional caches at 20%, with traditionals being represented at 80% of the new caches being published.  While you claim that COs will want to own a "rare" icon, I'm pretty sure that the number of new challenges isn't going to approach the current level of other caches that are being published to the extent that they are going to inundate the area with challenges. There will be an uptick but not one that's large enough to really skew the numbers greatly.

 

21 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Absolutely. But think about the perspective of those who don't care about challenges and just want to find geocaches. They can't see why they should have to qualify for a challenge just to log the geocache they found and signed as found on their account. Right now, we have to tell them - who cares about your online stats, just mark it somehow as found and add it to your ignore list. That's pretty one-sided from their perspective. The ALR is something they don't care about. But as you say, if they could just log it found all things being equal, it reduces the value of the entirety of the completion for those who do complete the challenge as well. That's why the stars for challenges are distinct. People who care about challenges will have a record that they qualified for the challenge, not merely found another geocache.  The fact that they found the geocache will be recorded in their stats; the fact that you found it and qualified for the challenge is recorded in your stats. No one loses out.

 

Absolutely.  But think about the perspective of those who don't care about (puzzle caches, multis, or Wherigos) and just want to find geocaches.  They can't see why they should have to (solve a puzzle, find multiple stages, or play an online virtual cartridge) to qualify for a final stage just to log the geocache they want to find.  Same could be said for virtuals and ECs that require you to contact the CO to answer some questions or the LBH that provides written instructions rather than a cache at the posted coordinates.  All they want is to find a geocache.  By separating the two, you're basically creating more traditional caches - the one type of cache we already have a large majority of.

 

One of the things that I like about geocaching is that there's so much variety to the types of caches.  While I enjoy Wherigos, I have no intention of doing any lab caches, which I understand are similar in nature.  I, personally, don't like the fact that you get multiple finds for doing one thing, playing a single adventure lab cache from start to finish.  However, I'm not going to ask for a feature that intrinsically changes something that many appear to enjoy doing, even though they don't come close to approaching the number of traditional caches out there.  

 

I don't, personally, like the idea of separating the two aspects of a challenge cache just to allow a group of cachers who are more interested in claiming a find than they are about doing the challenge to be allowed to log it as found.  I'm sure challenge caches have a higher percentage of total caches in some areas than others and I'm not sure of the overall world totals but I know that it's nowhere near the percentage of traditional caches across the board.  Why must we "dumb" things down so that challenges turn into traditional caches with the added "bonus" of stars being added to one's stats once they qualify?  If they want to find traditional caches, then let them find traditional caches.  There are lots of those out there.  We really don't need any more and that's what this suggestion is doing, at its essence - turning challenge caches into just another traditional cache.

 

Why would we even need a new icon for that?  Just group them with the traditional caches since the stars only get added if you complete the challenge set forth in the description and have very little to do with the actual cache any more, other than getting some stars added to your statistics once you complete the challenge.  I get the most satisfaction in locating a challenge that I find interesting, completing the challenge, and then finding the cache that's associated with the challenge - less so on caches I've already qualified for or are duplicate (i.e. the next Jasmer after the initial one).  I realize the cache may or may not be similar in scope to the posted challenge (the Jasmer or Fizzy comes to mind) but there's something more rewarding about being able to log a challenge as found than there is about finding a traditional cache.  It's related to all the work I did to qualify for that particular challenge.  Now that work would appear to be de-valued if everyone could log the cache but only a few got some virtual stars added to their statistics.  I don't care about statistics in that sense.  I care about the effort expended to meet the challenge and qualify in order to be able to log a find on a cache that only those who went through the same effort can log.  Call it exclusivity or being part of a small subset of cachers who went through the same things I did in order to be able to log a find.  Challenge caches, as they stand now, are different.  With this suggestion, the notion that this cache is somehow "different" than other caches goes away.  Cachers who don't qualify get to find something that's now no different than a traditional cache.  That find doesn't mean as much because the effort to meet the challenge isn't recognized in the same manner any more.

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3 hours ago, coachstahly said:

1.  You're making an assumption that may or may not come to pass.  It's possible many caches of this type would be published.  It's also possible that many caches of this type wouldn't be published.

 

Pardon, I am not sure if my English is good enough for this to understand. What do you mean:

 

"many caches of this type wouldn't be published"

Not many caches of this type will be hidden by the cachers? Or: Many caches might be hidden but they wouldn't be published by the reviewer? [I think the first one but my language feeling tells me the second one.]

 

Just two examples:

 

1) When the virtual caches (1.0) were given to some geocachers I heard several cachers complain as those cachers were allowed to have a virtual icon but not them.

2) Many German (not only us!) cachers are unable to create a Wherigo cache (me too!) but they want to own one (not me, as along as I don't have an idea and the knowledge to make one). In the recent years many "reverse wherigos" have been published - and with many I mean MANY. It's a cartrdige that can be used by any cacher without any knowledge about wherigos; the basic idea is to find the cache and the cartridge only tells you the distance to the box. The creator made it so everyone can make his own "reverse Wherigo" so many cachers do that. I have taken a look in my Wherigo founds: 38/119 (about 1/3) of the wherigos is such a reverse cache. And it's getting more and more.

 

I have no problems, boosting my numbers with challenge caches or reverse wherigos but is it what geocaching is all about? Perhaps it is but that makes me sad. :-(

It's similar to souvenirs - years ago it was nice to get a new country souvenir and sometimes there was a special event. Nowadays you get two to the price of one and everyone wants to collect more and more souvenirs (including me :-)).

 

I could very well live with this: challenge caches get a new icon but reviewers tend to refuse nonsense challenges or simple "look I am so great" challenges. Same should work for reverse wherigos, no more of them... at least not so many!

 

Best wishes

Jochen

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8 hours ago, coachstahly said:

As to doubled challenges, that's certainly a possibility but there's no guarantee either that COs will blanket the area with already published challenge caches that measure the same thing.

 

This is already covered by this guideline:

 

Quote

“Please do not submit a challenge cache in an area where a very similar or identical challenge cache already exists.”

This guideline is intended to prevent the publication of repetitive challenges in the same general area. Think of it as a proximity guideline for challenges. The proximity distance will vary depending on your area. “Very similar” is subjective so that reviewers will be able to determine what is appropriate to publish for an area or not, based on existing nearby challenges.

 

I gather the reviewers here are pretty strict about this and won't allow similar challenges anywhere near each other.

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11 hours ago, frostengel said:

 

In fact I have no problemes with them - it's right that there are enough caches everywhere. And even more I go and seek those challenge caches - I (as many others) like the fact that my statistics gets a little boost. Project 81, filled up 10 times is an easy to reach difficulty 5 cache for me - yeah! :-)

 

But the hobby gets a statistics hobby at several sides and that's what I don't like. Just one example: I have some high terrain caches. I like to do those and I am happy to provide cachers who like to do those, too. And it is the same with the challenges: for those who don't want to do those there is enough simple caches. But when geocachers are coming and they just want to get the find because of their statistics (and I can read this from the logs - had some lately) I am not really happy about it.

 

I'd like the whole great hobby to get a little away from numbers, numbers, numbers and challenges are in fact one way to get it even closer to it.

 

It is okay as it is now (too many but still okay) but as soon as challenges get their own icon there will be plenty more here - many cachers will want to own such a rare (????) icon! No! So better leave it as it is actually, no unique icon please! That's what I want to say!

 

Best wishes

Jochen

 

PS: Germans are crazy! You don't want to know how many "fishing caches" have been published here....

Thank you for that reply, it helped me to understand your thinking.

 

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18 hours ago, frostengel said:

Pardon, I am not sure if my English is good enough for this to understand. What do you mean:

 

"many caches of this type wouldn't be published"

Not many caches of this type will be hidden by the cachers? Or: Many caches might be hidden but they wouldn't be published by the reviewer? [I think the first one but my language feeling tells me the second one.]

 

Neither.  You believe that there will be many new challenge caches published if a new icon is created for challenges.  I'm saying that we don't know what is going to happen if a new icon is created.  You have jumped straight to the worst case scenario and completely ignored the possibility that there's a wide range of possibilities at hand.  The best case scenario for you is that a new icon is created and no one publishes a new challenge cache in your area while the worst case scenario means your area will get flooded with new challenge cache publications.  There's plenty of room between the best and worst case scenarios that has new challenge caches (with a new challenge icon in place) being published.  There's just no way to know.

 

13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:
Quote

“Please do not submit a challenge cache in an area where a very similar or identical challenge cache already exists.”

This guideline is intended to prevent the publication of repetitive challenges in the same general area. Think of it as a proximity guideline for challenges. The proximity distance will vary depending on your area. “Very similar” is subjective so that reviewers will be able to determine what is appropriate to publish for an area or not, based on existing nearby challenges.

 

 

Knowing this, you can discount any concern about doubled up challenge caches as well.  I hadn't realized this was in place.

 

18 hours ago, frostengel said:

1) When the virtual caches (1.0) were given to some geocachers I heard several cachers complain as those cachers were allowed to have a virtual icon but not them.

 

This is a completely separate topic and unrelated to this discussion.  I'd like to point out that only some cachers got them and had the ability to create and own one, unlike the new challenge icon, which would be open to anyone willing and able to place one.

 

18 hours ago, frostengel said:

2) Many German (not only us!) cachers are unable to create a Wherigo cache (me too!) but they want to own one (not me, as along as I don't have an idea and the knowledge to make one). In the recent years many "reverse wherigos" have been published - and with many I mean MANY. It's a cartrdige that can be used by any cacher without any knowledge about wherigos; the basic idea is to find the cache and the cartridge only tells you the distance to the box. The creator made it so everyone can make his own "reverse Wherigo" so many cachers do that. I have taken a look in my Wherigo founds: 38/119 (about 1/3) of the wherigos is such a reverse cache. And it's getting more and more.

 

I'm not sure why you can't create a Wherigo cache that's not a reverse Wherigo.  You don't need to use urwigo or earwigo to create one, unless you want to do more than create a walking tour with questions that can be answered.  Wherigo//kit is a simple Wherigo creator that will allow you to create a Wherigo with ease.  The simple remedy regarding reverse Wherigos is not to do them, especially if you don't enjoy them.  Doing them is different than owning them so I'm not sure what your point is, other than to point out an increase in reverse Wherigos in your area.

 

18 hours ago, frostengel said:

I could very well live with this: challenge caches get a new icon but reviewers tend to refuse nonsense challenges or simple "look I am so great" challenges.

 

The nonsense challenges have been pretty much eliminated by the "new" guidelines in place so that point isn't valid much any more.  The "look I am so great" challenge will only be published if a reviewer-determined number of cachers in the area qualify for the challenge.  If they are the only ones who qualify, then it won't get published.  At least in my area, my reviewer asks that at least 10 other cachers qualify for a new challenge before it will get published.

 

19 hours ago, frostengel said:

I have no problems, boosting my numbers with challenge caches or reverse wherigos but is it what geocaching is all about? Perhaps it is but that makes me sad. :-(

It's similar to souvenirs - years ago it was nice to get a new country souvenir and sometimes there was a special event. Nowadays you get two to the price of one and everyone wants to collect more and more souvenirs (including me :-)).

 

If something like boosting your numbers makes you sad, then why do you continue to find reverse wherigos and participate in souvenir promotions that are typically about finding more caches in order to get a new souvenir?  You say that you want geocaching to get away from numbers. "I'd like the whole great hobby to get a little away from numbers, numbers, numbers and challenges are in fact one way to get it even closer to it."   Challenge caches aren't the only types of caches that get you closer to numbers based caching.  Power trails?  Geo-art?  Souvenirs?  You've chosen to selectively focus on challenges as being numbers driven and completely ignored the fact that souvenirs, power trails, and geo-art all accomplish the same numbers mentality that you wish would be less important.  If a decrease of numbers were truly your point of emphasis, you'd be arguing to get rid of power trails, geo-art, and souvenirs as well as challenge caches.  Instead, you admit you want to collect more and more souvenirs, which are pretty much a numbers based caching challenge that qualifies you for a virtual souvenir instead of a challenge cache.  How is that any different from a challenge cache?  You can't have it both ways.  You either continue to earn your souvenirs by finding more and more caches, negating your point about getting geocaching away from numbers or you choose to forego finding a high number of caches that would prevent you from earning those souvenirs.

 

There's one thing you can do, on your own, that can reduce the focus on numbers.  Not find lots of caches.  Be selective about what you choose to find.  Don't actively participate in souvenir promotions.  Don't find challenge caches.  Don't find reverse wherigos.  Don't find caches that are just "fillers of space".  Then, instead of it being about numbers, it will be about your personal experience and satisfaction with geocaching.  Power trails, geo-art, challenges, and souvenirs aren't going anywhere any time soon so the numbers type of caches will always be there.  You don't have to find them.  You don't have to earn that souvenir or qualify for that challenge. If you truly care about it not being about the numbers, you can cache in a manner that allows you to forego concerns about the numbers and settle into your own personal cache haven.

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On 7/3/2020 at 5:02 AM, The Jester said:

I guess I can't understand why a very small handful of caches bothers you so much

 

These are challenge  caches in my area. They've decreased by about a third since the moratorium. Note the power trails of challenge caches. 

 

33678003_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_24_16AM.thumb.png.dcb44dad6c3d0615716a67a04461cc82.png

 

1047045768_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_33_44AM.thumb.png.9e62b16735689fd3d92027d61ae31dcf.png

 

If they gave challenge caches their own icon, in my area guaranteed this would double, if not quadruple. Many of the people left playing here, are into stats/grid-filling/icon-collecting and providing caches for those numbers collectors. 

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I guess many of the challenges would be archived to be republished with the new icon. There might be a surge in new challenges in the beginning but it will all even out after a while.

As long as there are enough cache types to chose from there shouldn't be a problem, just ignore what you don't like (we do).  Traditionals behind an utility pole or tree are a bigger problem than challenges (for me).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, coachstahly said:

You believe that there will be many new challenge caches published if a new icon is created for challenges.  I'm saying that we don't know what is going to happen if a new icon is created.  You have jumped straight to the worst case scenario and completely ignored the possibility that there's a wide range of possibilities at hand.

 

As I said:

 

On 7/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, frostengel said:

Just two examples:

 

1) When the virtual caches (1.0) were given to some geocachers I heard several cachers complain as those cachers were allowed to have a virtual icon but not them.

2) Many German (not only us!) cachers are unable to create a Wherigo cache (me too!) but they want to own one (not me, as along as I don't have an idea and the knowledge to make one). In the recent years many "reverse wherigos" have been published - and with many I mean MANY. It's a cartrdige that can be used by any cacher without any knowledge about wherigos; the basic idea is to find the cache and the cartridge only tells you the distance to the box. The creator made it so everyone can make his own "reverse Wherigo" so many cachers do that. I have taken a look in my Wherigo founds: 38/119 (about 1/3) of the wherigos is such a reverse cache. And it's getting more and more.

 

And I am not alone with the "fear":

 

4 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

If they gave challenge caches their own icon, in my area guaranteed this would double, if not quadruple. Many of the people left playing here, are into stats/grid-filling/icon-collecting and providing caches for those numbers collectors.

 

I don't know what will happen but I can assume. And I think (!) that more challenges will come and - and that is the main problem! - the quality will decrease.

 

It is like caching overall: if you have a great place, a great riddle, anything great put out your cache - if you just want to hide a cache to hide one don't do it. If you have a good challenge idea hide it - if not leave it. If you just want to hide a challenge cache to get a new icon ton't do it. But many people hide caches just to hide one; and they will think of a "challenge" just to...

 

I know my (some!!) German cachers. :-)

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4 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

 

These are challenge  caches in my area. They've decreased by about a third since the moratorium. Note the power trails of challenge caches. 

 

33678003_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_24_16AM.thumb.png.dcb44dad6c3d0615716a67a04461cc82.png

 

1047045768_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_33_44AM.thumb.png.9e62b16735689fd3d92027d61ae31dcf.png

 

If they gave challenge caches their own icon, in my area guaranteed this would double, if not quadruple. Many of the people left playing here, are into stats/grid-filling/icon-collecting and providing caches for those numbers collectors. 

As I said before, I'm sure that's not all the caches in your area.  What percent of total caches are Challenge Caches in your neck of the woods?  That's the best metric to go by. 

 

I've done a couple of power trail of Challenges, but I've never done a "normal" power trail (if such a thing really exists).  The CC PT had more interest to me because I qualified for most - and those I didn't qualify for I passed up (personally I don't think you should hunt a CC you aren't qualified for, which is counter to the must-find-all-caches crowd).  I like them, somewhat, so that I don't have to drive such long distances to find them.

 

And, I'd like to know how you are so sure CC's would increase in such a dramatic way?  Are there that many new Challenge ideas waiting in the wings?  Why aren't they being hidden now?  You can't duplicate Challenges in the area (as discussed above) so they must be new.  Your "hatred" of Challenge Caches is coloring your whole outlook - at least, that's what your posting history indicates.

 

ETA:  I did a quick search around Hamilton.  2883 caches within 10 miles, 250 with "Challenge" in name, so your approx. 8.6 percent is higher than most I've seen, but still leaves over 2600 other caches to find.

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1 hour ago, The Jester said:

Are there that many new Challenge ideas waiting in the wings?

 

No and that's the problem we are talking about. At the moment some challenges are published - some are good, some are not so good. If - and only if - we are right and more challenges will be published especially by those who just want the new icon, what do you think? Will the new ones be good or bad challenges? Will they be creative? Or will they be "Oh, I need any idea, let's look at my statistics, what do I fulfill?"

 

Just another example: In the North of my home town there is a challenge to find 3700 caches at (on?) a friday. The owner has found 37xx caches and the owner's best friend has 37xx as well. Is this a useful challenge for everyone? (I don't even have 1000 caches found at that day of the week. :-))

And now just imagine others looking at there statistics and choosing anything: find 3000 traditionals, find 200 traditionals in one day, find 50 mystery caches in one week, find more than 2000 caches in a year, find 1000 D5 caches, find..... There are plenty of possibilities but non of those challenges are creative. And they will be less creative if we are right.

 

Here are challenges from the very beginning and in those days they were very creative: fill up the 81 matrix; fill up the 366 matrix. Nowadays those challenges are everywhere.....

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14 minutes ago, frostengel said:

Is this a useful challenge for everyone? (I don't even have 1000 caches found at that day of the week. :-))

 

Is any challenge a "useful challenge for everyone"?  I doubt any one challenge appeals to everyone.  The referenced challenge might be interesting, looking at my stats most of my finds are on Sat (my wild guess is most cachers would find the weekend their highest counts) with about 2300.  During the week most are 11-1200, Sunday is less than a 1000.  So a challenge to push myself to find more on different days does have some appeal (although, 3700 is years away for me).  Of course, this means I'm looking at challenges as something to work towards as opposed to (apparently) the guidelines push to find something lots of people have already done. 

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2 hours ago, frostengel said:

 

No and that's the problem we are talking about. At the moment some challenges are published - some are good, some are not so good. If - and only if - we are right and more challenges will be published especially by those who just want the new icon, what do you think? Will the new ones be good or bad challenges? Will they be creative? Or will they be "Oh, I need any idea, let's look at my statistics, what do I fulfill?"

 

Just another example: In the North of my home town there is a challenge to find 3700 caches at (on?) a friday. The owner has found 37xx caches and the owner's best friend has 37xx as well. Is this a useful challenge for everyone? (I don't even have 1000 caches found at that day of the week. :-))

And now just imagine others looking at there statistics and choosing anything: find 3000 traditionals, find 200 traditionals in one day, find 50 mystery caches in one week, find more than 2000 caches in a year, find 1000 D5 caches, find..... There are plenty of possibilities but non of those challenges are creative. And they will be less creative if we are right.

 

Here are challenges from the very beginning and in those days they were very creative: fill up the 81 matrix; fill up the 366 matrix. Nowadays those challenges are everywhere.....

 

I would suggest that you read the challenge cache guideline once again because most of yours examples aren't publishable.

 

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9 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

 

These are challenge  caches in my area. They've decreased by about a third since the moratorium. Note the power trails of challenge caches. 

 

33678003_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_24_16AM.thumb.png.dcb44dad6c3d0615716a67a04461cc82.png

 

1047045768_ScreenShot2019-10-20at11_33_44AM.thumb.png.9e62b16735689fd3d92027d61ae31dcf.png

 

If they gave challenge caches their own icon, in my area guaranteed this would double, if not quadruple. Many of the people left playing here, are into stats/grid-filling/icon-collecting and providing caches for those numbers collectors. 

With the fact they needs to be different from neighboring one it's pretty unlikely their numbers would raises that much.

 

I checked some of the challenge and holy cow with my 12 000 finds I wouldn't be able to qualify for most of it.... I am surprised that your Reviewer allow that.

 

I run the number for Nova Scotia we have 67 challenges for 22 008 caches (including 153 lab) = 0,3%

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Jester said:

Is any challenge a "useful challenge for everyone"?  I doubt any one challenge appeals to everyone.

 

This I find is the big dilemma when creating a challenge cache. For pre-qualifiers there's no challenge so it's essentially just a traditional, even the bookwork we used to have to do to tabulate our qualifying finds has been automated by the checkers. But at the other end of the scale are those who'll never have a hope of qualifying and for those they're just ignore-list fodder. Streak challenges will be easiest for new players since they'll have a high proportion of local unfound caches, whereas for someone like me who's exhausted all the close-hanging fruit, the travel would be prohibitive for anything more than a few days. Most other challenges, the grid-filling, calendar-filling and find-x-caches-with-these-qualities ones especially, become easier with time in the game. When creating a new challenge, finding that sweet spot to set the bar so it's challenging but not too challenging for players in the region is tricky.

 

My Slow Cooked challenge seems to have been reasonably successful, with a good mix of pre-qualifiers and those who've worked on qualifying amongst its 18 finders, but my Nemophilist challenge looks like being a dismal failure with its only two finders (both in the week after publication last October) being easy pre-qualifiers who came up from Sydney to find the physical cache. Curiously there've been over a hundred positive checker runs on that one but only those two have turned into finds.

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