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Shop99er

Premium Member Only Caches---TIme to Go?

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I ask this because they very much seem to have outlived any usefulness they may have ever had.

 

There's no good reason, that I can see, of having them, or even the title. Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

 

A useless choice isn't much of a choice. 

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26 minutes ago, Shop99er said:

Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

The point of PMO caches isn't to prevent basic members from logging them. That has always been allowed.

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It's one of the ways Groundspeak makes money so I don't think they will remove it. 

 

Personally none of my hides are currently PMO because I want the greatest number of people to find them.

 

But I understand why some people do it in the hopes that newbies can't find their cache and so can't damage/muggle it.

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There've been several recent cases a bit north of here where someone calling themselves the Cache Smasher has signed up for a basic account and gone on a cache-smashing rampage. Changing caches to PMO is a useful option for those affected, where the only other alternative is archival.

 

Also some COs put a lot of time and effort into creating their caches and like some level of protection from muggles-with-apps. At the moment, the low D/T traditional-only restriction in the free app can be a sufficient barrier to the weekend wonders, but the recent unannounced change to the D/T limit from 1.5 to 2 has exposed one of my themed caches (GC6647D) so I'll be keeping an eye on that, particularly over the upcoming school holidays, and would like to keep the option of switching it to PMO if problems arise.

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Please, please KEEP Premium Member Only Caches. It stops beginners finding caches that might have had more time spent making them. Beginners have not had the chance to decide if they want to take up this hobby long term and to learn about it. What's the use of creating a better cache and then have someone who is not really a 'proper' geocacher yet come along and destroy the effort. Yes Premium Members could do this, but as they have invested in this, chances are less likely to. A Premium Cache also provides better protection from beginners with only a few finds, who take the TB, but then decide that geocaching is not their thing, and the TB is never heard from again.

Most people are Premium Members (at least where I live), so why are premium caches a problem? If you are not a member join. I figure, if you can afford a phone and more so a data plan (I only this year was at last able to justify data on my phone), you can afford to join.

If you personally want everyone to find your caches, you can choose not to have Premium Caches. Your choice, but please don't suggest taking that choice away from those that want them.

Edited by Goldenwattle
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7 hours ago, Shop99er said:

I ask this because they very much seem to have outlived any usefulness they may have ever had.

There's no good reason, that I can see, of having them, or even the title. Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

A useless choice isn't much of a choice. 

 

Well, now that someone in another thread's handin' temp pms like candy, maybe you got a point.   :D

 

I like the idea of pmo caches. 

Some believe it's helping with security (see sentence above...), but for those who make them pmo just-because-they-can, so what ? 

I would like the annoying audit log gone though. 

 - Shoulda been gone long ago. Numerous ways to bypass, and now only points to those who don't know how to get around it.

Hopefully the CO doesn't think he's keeping track of anything with it...

 

Basic members have been able to log pmo caches before I joined (and only a few months after you).

 - You expect families to purchase a pm for every member ?

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On 8/29/2018 at 2:01 PM, Shop99er said:

I ask this because they very much seem to have outlived any usefulness they may have ever had.

 

There's no good reason, that I can see, of having them, or even the title. Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

 

A useless choice isn't much of a choice. 

You have a point. 

23 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Well, now that someone in another thread's handin' temp pms like candy, maybe you got a point.   :D

 

I like the idea of pmo caches. 

Some believe it's helping with security (see sentence above...), but for those who make them pmo just-because-they-can, so what ? 

I would like the annoying audit log gone though. 

 - Shoulda been gone long ago. Numerous ways to bypass, and now only points to those who don't know how to get around it.

Hopefully the CO doesn't think he's keeping track of anything with it...

 

Basic members have been able to log pmo caches before I joined (and only a few months after you).

 - You expect families to purchase a pm for every member ?

Like candy is a great analogy. 

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It is said that non-premier members are finding ways around to log Premier Caches. I checked my Premier Caches for the last year and I did not notice one non-premier geocacher had logged them. There was also a propensity for cachers with higher find numbers to be the ones logging them, but there were a number with lower finds also logging them (I saw one with only 26 finds), but they were all Premier members.  From the quick scans (and it was a quick scan), I only noticed three non-members (all with single figure finds), and these had logged non Premier caches. Nearly all cachers are Premier members here, so in effect Premier caches are available to everyone, but allowing Premier Caches does help protect 'better' caches from those with an apt trying it out.

Edited by Goldenwattle

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2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

It is said that non-premier members are finding ways around to log Premier Caches.

Groundspeak provides ways for basic members to log PMO caches. Basic members don't really need to do much to find these ways. There are multiple threads in the forums that explain how to do it. For example, just go to http://www.geocachingadmin.com/ and enter the GC code and click the Log button.

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1 hour ago, niraD said:

Groundspeak provides ways for basic members to log PMO caches. Basic members don't really need to do much to find these ways. There are multiple threads in the forums that explain how to do it. For example, just go to http://www.geocachingadmin.com/ and enter the GC code and click the Log button.

At least in Australia, which is what I know, most basic members are beginners with very few finds, often in the single figures. Most would not know how to navigate the site, let alone find forums, and by the time they do they will almost certainly be Premium members, like the overwhelming majority. For example, I just clicked randomly on four of my geocaches, and about 96% are Premium members. Most of the about 4-5% that weren't were beginners with very low find numbers. I only saw a couple with more than a hundred finds (one had over a 1,000, which seeing who it was, was surprising, but maybe? between memberships). Of course there will always be the occasional beginner with more skill in being able to navigate the site, but I would guess most wouldn't be able too, or even want to, as there are, for most people, plenty of other caches they can log.

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On 29/08/2018 at 8:01 PM, Shop99er said:

I ask this because they very much seem to have outlived any usefulness they may have ever had.

 

There's no good reason, that I can see, of having them, or even the title. Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

 

A useless choice isn't much of a choice. 

 

I think non-PM logging is a bit of a red herring - as far as I know it’s always been allowed.  Typically it’s used by family members or friends of a PM, having found PMO caches whilst out with the PM.

 

I’m interested to know, what’s changed that makes you feel they’ve outlived their usefulness?

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2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

At least in Australia, which is what I know, most basic members are beginners with very few finds, often in the single figures. Most would not know how to navigate the site, let alone find forums, and by the time they do they will almost certainly be Premium members, like the overwhelming majority. For example, I just clicked randomly on four of my geocaches, and about 96% are Premium members. Most of the about 4-5% that weren't were beginners with very low find numbers. I only saw a couple with more than a hundred finds (one had over a 1,000, which seeing who it was, was surprising, but maybe? between memberships). Of course there will always be the occasional beginner with more skill in being able to navigate the site, but I would guess most wouldn't be able too, or even want to, as there are, for most people, plenty of other caches they can log.

 

I don't find the same pattern in my part of the UK fwiw. All of the comments below relate to finds on my own caches.

 

For simple (2/2 and below) trads with only a short walk involved, I'm finding between 25 and 40% of logs I currently have on the caches (see note below) are from members. Some are low numbers, others have hundreds and, in a couple of cases, thousands of logs. In a number of cases these are people finding their first caches and who are clearly learning the game. For trads with more of a walk or with higher D/T, I'm finding that drops a bit - to maybe 15 - 20%. Once you start looking at multi caches and unknown types, it drops again in general, although my most popular multi cache is still up at 17%. For some though I'm looking at only 1 or 2 regular member finds on those sorts of caches, some and it's none.

 

Given that the official app only allows a member to look at 2/2 and below caches (and probably limits the types of caches that can be seen as well - I forget which), there is an argument that can be made that anything that doesn't fall under those categories needn't be a premium member only cache. Or, certainly, that there's less need for it to be so - I'm very conscious that arguments like that made by barefootjeff above are completely reasonable.

 

I'm fortunate that when I started to play that there were very, very few premium member only caches in this part of the world so there were plenty of caches that I could play with and learn how to do things in the right sort of way. I've seen other areas where I think I'd have struggled to get going properly. There's a balancing act to negotiate between putting people off and getting people to learn how to do things properly.

 

Technical note: I don't believe that looking at the current state of online logs provides a totally accurate picture of premium members. I know for a fact that there are people who show as basic members who have been premium members in the past - perhaps when they logged my cache - and that there are current premium members who weren't when they logged my caches. You'd have to be keeping stats when caches are logged to know the true picture. It's easy to draw the wrong conclusions from numbers as well - so it would be easy to imagine that someone with >2000 logs who shows as a regular member was once a premium member or that one with c.1000 finds as a premium member has the faintest clue what they're doing; I know, from looking at logs on my own caches, that neither can be assumed and I would much rather receive a log from the former than the later.

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On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 3:01 PM, Shop99er said:

I ask this because they very much seem to have outlived any usefulness they may have ever had.

 

There's no good reason, that I can see, of having them, or even the title. Non-premium members can use several work-arounds to log them, and TPTB let them.

 

A useless choice isn't much of a choice. 

 

You can change them pretty easily.  For your caches you want to make non-PMO, edit the cache and uncheck "Make this cache Premuim-only".

 

 

Edited by kunarion

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I don't care if non premium log mine.  I make some of my caches premium when it took longer to set up, or was more expensive to put together, and I want to prevent the kids that sign up for an account and go out on a destroy mission.   This seems to happen about once a year, and caches that are premium are normally spared as it's tougher for the kiddies to find them.

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What's interesting is that there used to be a way to distinguish PMO from free public caches on the map,  but with the new map icons, that has changed. I suppose to those with a premium membership, PMO status doesn't matter. But for those without it, can they still see PMO caches in the map and search results?

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4 hours ago, Mineral2 said:

What's interesting is that there used to be a way to distinguish PMO from free public caches on the map,  but with the new map icons, that has changed. I suppose to those with a premium membership, PMO status doesn't matter. But for those without it, can they still see PMO caches in the map and search results?

Not on the map, no. In the search results, yes, but the detail depends on which search.

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