Agenda Literature Placed in Caches by Finders

[+The Leprechauns]

If the rules allow spam, well... spammers gonna spam. If the rules disallow it, then it would be at least for religious and non-profit agenda lit droppers, unconscionable to continue, since they're basically rule-followers.

The flaw in this reasoning is that you've projected your definition of "spam" onto "The Rules." As I said in my prior post, I do not regard a single copy of a religious pamphlet as spam. Rather, it is a trade item that I would specifically seek out and trade for. That is true regardless of the religious creed espoused in the pamphlet.

 

Let's use MY definition of spam instead. Under my definition, any trade item that mentions or promotes the consumption of alcohol would need to be banned. Gone would be the Budweiser bottle openers, Jim Beam keychains, Guinness coasters, "free drink" tokens, and any pen, pencil or other item with the name of a local tavern on it.

 

I see those items in caches all the time, whereas I rarely encounter the religious swag for which I'd gladly trade. Yet, I don't advocate for the banning of the alcohol-related swag. That's because the consumption of alcohol, like the consumption of religion, is a legal activity (at least for those above the age of 21, in the former case). Since I know that others enjoy trading for items like the examples I gave, I simply leave those items alone. It's quite easy to move them aside on my way to the logbook. You could do the same with the religious items. All it takes is a little tolerance.

 

So if we are going to change The Rules, they'd need to be changed equitably across the board to include other promotional items that geocachers might regard as spam. Be careful of what you ask for.

[knowschad]

And if he got pulled over for some reason on his way home, and the trooper happened to find the pipe on his person... then what?

 

We have two alternatives.

 

1. Leaving the trash inside the container.

2. CITO.

 

And if this "hypothetical trooper" saw him throwing the pipe?

 

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

 

Well, leaving it in the cache would only be passing the problem on to the next finder, would it not? And CITO would mean that he could get caught with it by a LEO, as I just mentioned. Hypothetical trooper would probably NOT be there at the cache site.

 

Sorry if you feel I'm going off-topic, but I was simply addressing your criticism of him tossing it.

[+narcissa]

Wow, and here I'm looking at the guide, and it says explicitly:

 

"Explosives, ammunition, knives, drugs and alcohol should not be placed in a cache."

 

What was that you were saying about the rules?

Oh narcissa... You know that most people follow the rules for the same reason ticking "found it" without having actually found it is an empty victory.

If the rules allow spam, well... spammers gonna spam. If the rules disallow it, then it would be at least for religious and non-profit agenda lit droppers, unconscionable to continue, since they're basically rule-followers.

 

What makes you think that? Surely, there is a chance that someone driven to spread this literature in the first place would perceive the greater purpose of their agenda to be more important than unenforceable suggestions or rules in a game. When has the law ever stopped radicals and zealots?

[+SwineFlew]

Wow, and here I'm looking at the guide, and it says explicitly:

 

"Explosives, ammunition, knives, drugs and alcohol should not be placed in a cache."

 

What was that you were saying about the rules?

Oh narcissa... You know that most people follow the rules for the same reason ticking "found it" without having actually found it is an empty victory.

If the rules allow spam, well... spammers gonna spam. If the rules disallow it, then it would be at least for religious and non-profit agenda lit droppers, unconscionable to continue, since they're basically rule-followers.

 

What makes you think that? Surely, there is a chance that someone driven to spread this literature in the first place would perceive the greater purpose of their agenda to be more important than unenforceable suggestions or rules in a game. When has the law ever stopped radicals and zealots?

Thank really hard about that one.

[+LaughterOnWater]

The flaw in this reasoning is that you've projected your definition of "spam" onto "The Rules." As I said in my prior post, I do not regard a single copy of a religious pamphlet as spam. Rather, it is a trade item that I would specifically seek out and trade for. That is true regardless of the religious creed espoused in the pamphlet.

 

Let's use MY definition of spam instead. Under my definition, any trade item that mentions or promotes the consumption of alcohol would need to be banned. Gone would be the Budweiser bottle openers, Jim Beam keychains, Guinness coasters, "free drink" tokens, and any pen, pencil or other item with the name of a local tavern on it.

 

I see those items in caches all the time, whereas I rarely encounter the religious swag for which I'd gladly trade. Yet, I don't advocate for the banning of the alcohol-related swag. That's because the consumption of alcohol, like the consumption of religion, is a legal activity (at least for those above the age of 21, in the former case). Since I know that others enjoy trading for items like the examples I gave, I simply leave those items alone. It's quite easy to move them aside on my way to the logbook. You could do the same with the religious items. All it takes is a little tolerance.

 

So if we are going to change The Rules, they'd need to be changed equitably across the board to include other promotional items that geocachers might regard as spam. Be careful of what you ask for.

Any change to any specified guidelines will still exhibit flaws, so I accept that banning agenda literature has flaws. But perhaps adding your adaptation on top of my adaptation only compounds the flaw, rather than making it better.

 

For instance, I'm talking about agenda literature. The only purpose of agenda literature is evangelism. Get others to work toward your goal. The purpose of a pen, a coaster or a beer cozy is to be a pen, a coaster or a beer cozy. To me, these are not much different than a rosary, a crucifix, a stone with a religious icon engraved on it or a string of Mardi Gras beads (essentially a glitzy rosary). These items all have a physical function, and it is not primarily as agenda literature. If we were to go by your reasoning then every item with any kind of writing on it is an agenda item, whether it says "Downtown Optometry" or "Duff Beer." Half of the pens in medium and large caches have some sort of writing on them. They would have to go. A lot of McToys have writing on them. They would have to go.

 

Agenda literature is generally printed on paper. It spreads imperatives, onus and guilt-for-inactivity simply by reading it. It attempts to evangelize others to do the bidding of those who spawned the agenda literature. Like spam. Agenda literature makes a poor pen, bottle opener or beer cozy. Seed caches were banned because they impose an agenda. It's why agenda-literature should be banned.

 

So gather, brothers and sisters by the compass-rose alter of the Counter Agenda Card. Let us spread as many of these cards as we can today and swap them for all other agenda literature, so that those ungameworthy agendas may meet their soggy slowly composting inevitability.

 

What makes you think that? Surely, there is a chance that someone driven to spread this literature in the first place would perceive the greater purpose of their agenda to be more important than unenforceable suggestions or rules in a game. When has the law ever stopped radicals and zealots?

Thank really hard about that one.

Of course all laws or guidelines are useless with radicals and zealots. Guidelines stop most people, because we are not radicals and zealots. It's the same reason why door locks only keep out honest people. An alarm system is merely a two-minute head start for a seasoned crook. Yet we still use door locks and alarm systems. It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

Radicals and zealots aren't playing our game. For them, it's not about finding caches. In this instance, it's about stuffing already-found caches with their imperatives.

[+ArtieD]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

[+LaughterOnWater]

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

You're right.

I do seem extra motivated.

 

Upon reflection, maybe I just get so much spam in my inbox at home and at work, it's just sort of the last straw that I'm finding it time after time in what's supposed to be an agenda-free hobby.

 

Maybe I should back off a bit.

 

The thing to do is let others decide whether it might be a useful tool for them.

I'm going to try a couple swaps during the next few caches and see how it goes.

 

Maybe others will do the same. Maybe they won't.

 

Excellent perspective. Thanks.

 

Chris

Edited June 16, 2015 by LaughterOnWater

[+narcissa]

It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

It isn't logical. The items that are already specifically mentioned - ammunition, food, knives, etc. - are commonly found in geocaches. Naming them hasn't made people stop placing them.

[+SwineFlew]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

[+LaughterOnWater]

It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

It isn't logical. The items that are already specifically mentioned - ammunition, food, knives, etc. - are commonly found in geocaches. Naming them hasn't made people stop placing them.

Okay, then let's unban them. What happens next?

[+narcissa]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

 

That's fine, we need something to get fired up about. "Here's a cool container" doesn't reel people in the same way that an outlandish scheme does.

Edited June 16, 2015 by narcissa

[+narcissa]

It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

It isn't logical. The items that are already specifically mentioned - ammunition, food, knives, etc. - are commonly found in geocaches. Naming them hasn't made people stop placing them.

Okay, then let's unban them. What happens next?

 

People continue to place them at approximately the same rate, and the community continues to have the same general baseline of grumbling about bullets and scented candles and religious pamphlets.

[+ArtieD]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

 

Pretty much this.

[+SwineFlew]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

[+narcissa]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

The guy has started a dozen threads. I think he's found his voice.

 

Some of you are afraid of the mere fact of disagreement.

[knowschad]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

 

Pretty much this.

 

Why do you feel so threatened by this? It is just an idea for discussion, not a law in front of Congress. Groundspeak will do what they feel the need to do, not what somebody suggests in a forum thread. I agree with SwineFlew... why are you so obsessed with this? And why does the number of posts someone has have anything to do with how good or bad an idea is? How many finds did Dave Ulmer have when he hid the first cache? That was still a pretty good idea, wasn't it?

 

Where would this forum be if people didn't start threads? What would you prefer to discuss?

[+SwineFlew]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

The guy has started a dozen threads. I think he's found his voice.

 

Some of you are afraid of the mere fact of disagreement.

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

[+narcissa]

 

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

So everyone should just encourage this guy to do something that's clearly a bad idea, because he's new? What's the benefit of that?

[+ArtieD]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

 

Pretty much this.

 

Why do you feel so threatened by this? It is just an idea for discussion, not a law in front of Congress. Groundspeak will do what they feel the need to do, not what somebody suggests in a forum thread. I agree with SwineFlew... why are you so obsessed with this? And why does the number of posts someone has have anything to do with how good or bad an idea is? How many finds did Dave Ulmer have when he hid the first cache? That was still a pretty good idea, wasn't it?

 

Where would this forum be if people didn't start threads? What would you prefer to discuss?

 

Hi, knowschad! I was afraid you were ill or something. You haven't jumped on anything I've said in a few hours.

[+ArtieD]

 

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

So everyone should just encourage this guy to do something that's clearly a bad idea, because he's new? What's the benefit of that?

 

I tend to agree. Are to just sit there and say "Great idea!" and just genuflect in the presence of the proposal, no matter how silly it may be? I thought dissent was and still is an important thing?

[+narcissa]

 

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

So everyone should just encourage this guy to do something that's clearly a bad idea, because he's new? What's the benefit of that?

 

I tend to agree. Are to just sit there and say "Great idea!" and just genuflect in the presence of the proposal, no matter how silly it may be? I thought dissent was and still is an important thing?

 

There wouldn't be anything to talk about.

 

"I'm going to put gummy worms out as swag."

 

"Wow! Nice idea!"

 

"Kids will love it!"

 

"I don't like green ones."

 

"Stop taking away his voice!"

 

MODERATOR CLOSES THREAD.

[+ArtieD]

 

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

So everyone should just encourage this guy to do something that's clearly a bad idea, because he's new? What's the benefit of that?

 

I tend to agree. Are to just sit there and say "Great idea!" and just genuflect in the presence of the proposal, no matter how silly it may be? I thought dissent was and still is an important thing?

 

There wouldn't be anything to talk about.

 

"I'm going to put gummy worms out as swag."

 

"Wow! Nice idea!"

 

"Kids will love it!"

 

"I don't like green ones."

 

"Stop taking away his voice!"

 

MODERATOR CLOSES THREAD.

 

[+SwineFlew]

 

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

So everyone should just encourage this guy to do something that's clearly a bad idea, because he's new? What's the benefit of that?

Thats what I am seeing from many of you. Why is the big question. Of what I really see, because he/she is new. GS isnt going to change the guideline about it.

 

This past spring, there was one agenda literature that said it was a QR code game and since I play that game on the side and when I tried to captured it, I found out that I was fooled since it was just a bible quote. It went straight into the trash can because it was a trick to get people to captured it. I find that annoying. Oh yea...it got the company logo on it and all. Oh yea. I am sure its against the company logo guideline as well. There are people out there thats trying to push their agenda and they wont stop at nothing because "someone might get saved". My brother inlaw is like that...and he keep getting fired from job after job after job and finally I told him...ENOUGH... you are support my sister and your kids and forget the bible on the job! He finally did and been with the company for over 3 years now and its his longest holding job he ever had.

 

How I feel about agenda literature? They get old after awhile. I often remove them because they often get blown away on a windy day(espcially in small containers that are so full) and that does cause geo liter.

[+niraD]

Seed caches were banned because they impose an agenda.

For the record, it is still perfectly acceptable to leave ready-to-hide geocache containers in other (obviously larger) caches. I've left a number of them as trade items myself.

 

What the guidelines prohibit are cache pages that require or strongly encourage the placement of new caches. Again, there are restrictions on cache pages that do not apply to trade items or to other cache contents.

[+AustinMN]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

I don't mind LoW having a voice. I mind his attitude that he/she knows more than everyone else, that those who try to teach him are not worth listening to, and that those who catch him in gross inconsistencies are to be ignored forever, and that he learned all this from his first 30 caches.

 

Ever follow the link in his signature? He's not interested in caching, he's interested in a flame war. Prediction: When he gets banned (it is inevitable), he will come back as a sock puppet to complain.

 

Austin

[+SwineFlew]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

I don't mind LoW having a voice. I mind his attitude that he/she knows more than everyone else, that those who try to teach him are not worth listening to, and that those who catch him in gross inconsistencies are to be ignored forever, and that he learned all this from his first 30 caches.

 

Ever follow the link in his signature? He's not interested in caching, he's interested in a flame war. Prediction: When he gets banned (it is inevitable), he will come back as a sock puppet to complain.

 

Austin

 

I dont worry about that, I trust that keystone will do a very fine job keeping that under control.

[+niraD]

I agree with SwineFlew... why are you so obsessed with this?

[+jwmoe1973]

The "leave no trace" ethic pre-dates geocaching, considerably.

 

Either way, I prefer 10 times a container full on "agendas" than a geocacher throwing trash in the woods.

 

+1

[+redsox_mark]

Whilst I don't personally agree with the need to ban "agenda litterature", I think the argument is somewhat logical. Groundspeak has listed certain items as not suitable to be in a cache for a reason - mainly health and safety related with the current list. Not everyone reads the guidelines or follows them, but I think most people do want to follow the rules. Placing food in a cache is obviously not a good idea, but I think some people do it out of ignorance.. and that the guidelines probably DO help reduce the amount of food left in caches. Most cachers I know are aware that food and knives are against the guidelines.

 

Of course Groundspeak making rules can't control what people do. All they can do is set down the guidelines. If Groundspeak decided that they didn't want "agenda litterature" in caches then it IS logical to add it to the list of "banned" items.

 

But I don't think Groundspeak cares or wants to control this particular aspect. And it is tricky as "literature" can have value to some. Where do you draw the line? A leaflet? A book?

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

It isn't logical. The items that are already specifically mentioned - ammunition, food, knives, etc. - are commonly found in geocaches. Naming them hasn't made people stop placing them.

Okay, then let's unban them. What happens next?

 

People continue to place them at approximately the same rate, and the community continues to have the same general baseline of grumbling about bullets and scented candles and religious pamphlets.

 

Especially Patchouli scented candles. That has got to stop.

 

Personally, I think the idea of a counter agenda card is kind of absurd and thought it was a joke at first. However, I understand wanting to engage in a pasttime without the continued bombardment of commercial solicitation and promotion of agendas.

 

If we look at the commercialization/gender guideline, which applies to caches listings, it states that cache listing *perceived* to be commercial or promoting an agenda will not be published. The key word there is perceived. When I find business cards or agenda pamphlets in a cache my perception is that the person that put them there is not to provide a trade item but that the geocache and those that find it is just another medium for spreading their agenda or trying to promote business. I don't think that changing the guidelines is going to stop it (because it's not enforceable) so all we can do is ask those that are using the game to promote their agenda or solicit for their business to stop doing it....especially if they're selling patchouli scented candles.

 

[+narcissa]

It's a logical next step to ban agenda literature for the main reason that most people will stop.

 

It isn't logical. The items that are already specifically mentioned - ammunition, food, knives, etc. - are commonly found in geocaches. Naming them hasn't made people stop placing them.

Okay, then let's unban them. What happens next?

 

People continue to place them at approximately the same rate, and the community continues to have the same general baseline of grumbling about bullets and scented candles and religious pamphlets.

 

Especially Patchouli scented candles. That has got to stop.

 

Personally, I think the idea of a counter agenda card is kind of absurd and thought it was a joke at first. However, I understand wanting to engage in a pasttime without the continued bombardment of commercial solicitation and promotion of agendas.

 

If we look at the commercialization/gender guideline, which applies to caches listings, it states that cache listing *perceived* to be commercial or promoting an agenda will not be published. The key word there is perceived. When I find business cards or agenda pamphlets in a cache my perception is that the person that put them there is not to provide a trade item but that the geocache and those that find it is just another medium for spreading their agenda or trying to promote business. I don't think that changing the guidelines is going to stop it (because it's not enforceable) so all we can do is ask those that are using the game to promote their agenda or solicit for their business to stop doing it....especially if they're selling patchouli scented candles.

 

I think there are good ways and bad ways to reinforce things that we would like to be community standards.

 

It is likely that the new cachers who get hooked on the game will find their way to an event or a Facebook group or the forum, where they will encounter other geocachers sharing stories. Hearing veteran geocachers talk about how disgusting it was to find a melted patchouli candle covered in ants will subtly tip them off about stuff in caches. Having someone publicly accuse them of leaving patchouli candles will probably just drive them away. And distributing cards complaining about patchouli candles will just spark the next grumbling conversation about junk in caches.

 

With agenda stuff, I don't know. I think actual people with an agenda (religious, political, or commercial) have that salesperson genetic code that doesn't process rejection or barriers. They're on a mission, plaintive mewling about rules won't stop them.

[+Mudfrog]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

The guy has started a dozen threads. I think he's found his voice.

 

Some of you are afraid of the mere fact of disagreement.

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

It does seem that no matter what is said, the same few people always come in and disagree. Of course it's ok to disagree but what i see in these cases are the same few people coming in and trashing the OP. The rudeness abounds in here and is uncalled for. These forums are for everyone to use. We can look at topics, see who started them, then make the decision to read and reply to them as we see fit. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do but if this OP really bothers you this much, then maybe you just need to stay away from his posts. Course i suspect this will never happen because i feel some of you thrive on the drama. There is no reason to get this angsty about a geocaching forum post.

 

At the same time, i feel that the OP is possibly a perfectionist. Wants everything to go smoothly and evenly, and would like things to go the way he thinks they should. The OP needs to realize that humans are in the mix and it's not gonna happen. Again, not trying to tell anyone what to do but, maybe it would be better to think about the issue first and realize that there is a good chance that nothing can be done about solving it. On this particular issue, even if a GC.com guideline was put into place, not much would change. People who believe in their cause are going to do what they want to get it out there.

 

I'm not usually one who just sits back and watches from the sidelines but i've learned that it's probably the best thing to do when it concerns something like geocaching. There are much more important things in life to be concerned about.

[+narcissa]

Of course it's ok to disagree but what i see in these cases are the same few people coming in and trashing the OP.

 

Disagreeing isn't "trashing."

[+ArtieD]

Of course it's ok to disagree but what i see in these cases are the same few people coming in and trashing the OP.

 

If the OP presents an idea which at best is ludicrous, you'd better believe people will call them out on it.

[+kunarion]

On this particular issue, even if a GC.com guideline was put into place, not much would change. People who believe in their cause are going to do what they want to get it out there.

True, because their "cause" is they find a Geocache and place trash in it as a prank.

[+Kelux]

Well, after all said and done, I have a humble suggestion that LoW can undertake, without any fuss.

 

Strengthen your geocaching, place some caches, with pristine containers... don't forget to drop your card inside them.

Who knows, you may start a trend and one of these days, they will be replicated in much more caches near yours.

 

In my hometown we started a similar idea, with messages in the logbook cover, asking for long and nice logs.

 

But that is another story...

[knowschad]

I mean this with all due respect, but...

 

Why are you so obsessed with this? We've already established that there are people who dig the stuff, so why are you so hell bent on getting rid of it?

On the flip side of the coin, why you and many others are so obsessed about this as well. Afraid that your right will be taken away? Many of you on the other side are so fast to tell the OP to get a life and leave this topic alone. Not sure why you are so worked up about it.

 

This particular user has started several threads, the gist of each one being "I have 30 finds, people are doing something I don't like, and here's my really aggressive plan to force them to stop."

So are you saying that only people with high found count got a voice and give them the right to shut down low found count finders in here? Thats what I am really seeing. You ought to be shame of yourself. Give everybody a voice and learn to listen...sometime a newbie make us think when we dont wanna hear it.

 

I will also say this... some of you are afraid of changes.

 

The guy has started a dozen threads. I think he's found his voice.

 

Some of you are afraid of the mere fact of disagreement.

Not me because I dont see the need to disagree with a newbie everytime like some of you guys are doing. ... I see some of you that go up to arm against him and telling him to get "lost". I always wonder why you guys get so defensive every time someone is trying to find a voice here. If it isnt a big deal, you guys wont be posting in this thread, but somehow, you guys are.

 

It does seem that no matter what is said, the same few people always come in and disagree. Of course it's ok to disagree but what i see in these cases are the same few people coming in and trashing the OP. The rudeness abounds in here and is uncalled for. These forums are for everyone to use. We can look at topics, see who started them, then make the decision to read and reply to them as we see fit. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do but if this OP really bothers you this much, then maybe you just need to stay away from his posts. Course i suspect this will never happen because i feel some of you thrive on the drama. There is no reason to get this angsty about a geocaching forum post.

 

+100!

[+LaughterOnWater]

I think there are good ways and bad ways to reinforce things that we would like to be community standards.

 

It is likely that the new cachers who get hooked on the game will find their way to an event or a Facebook group or the forum, where they will encounter other geocachers sharing stories. Hearing veteran geocachers talk about how disgusting it was to find a melted patchouli candle covered in ants will subtly tip them off about stuff in caches. Having someone publicly accuse them of leaving patchouli candles will probably just drive them away. And distributing cards complaining about patchouli candles will just spark the next grumbling conversation about junk in caches.

 

With agenda stuff, I don't know. I think actual people with an agenda (religious, political, or commercial) have that salesperson genetic code that doesn't process rejection or barriers. They're on a mission, plaintive mewling about rules won't stop them.

 

We all come from different strengths and experiences. I welcome disagreement. But disagreement works best when it includes well-thought-out (or even half-thought-out) attacks on the logic of the original premise without ridicule or attacks on the original poster.

 

Merely saying "What a stupid idea," makes me work harder to prove something when I'm not hearing any reasonable effort to pull the legs off the milk stool upon which my argument stands.

 

Two nights ago, I was frustrated at being told, "What a dumb idea," and "You can't make any difference," and "What a noob." Half asleep, I whipped up a terrible idea in about an hour and a half -- the Counter Agenda Card. At first I was just joking. But the more others got involved, the more I realized that maybe it wasn't such a terrible idea after all.

 

You and others have at least acknowledged that agenda lit is a nuisance. If nothing else, it got you and other gamers who have been in the game for years a sense that even if the rules don't change, there are ways to educate others about problems that exist in the game in a fashion that abides by rules, yet at the same time publicly demonstrates to gamers that some rules, or the lack thereof, might be changeworthy. The Counter Agenda Card is an example of how rules or their absence can be effectively highlighted in a respectful but public way, in order to do one of two things:

 

a. Make agenda lit socially unacceptable, so that it becomes an unwritten game rule that we shouldn't drop agenda lit.

b. Bring it to the attention of the people who own the game so that they can adapt the rules.

 

We can't change people who don't play by the rules. Those who believe they are above the rules or laws are playing some other game. This is true in geocaching and in life.

 

We can make the game better for those who do play by the rules, even if we don't change the rules. And most of us play by the rules.

 

(And yeah, the smell of patchouli causes me to involuntarily hurl. )

 

Well, after all said and done, I have a humble suggestion that LoW can undertake, without any fuss.

 

Strengthen your geocaching, place some caches, with pristine containers... don't forget to drop your card inside them.

Who knows, you may start a trend and one of these days, they will be replicated in much more caches near yours.

 

In my hometown we started a similar idea, with messages in the logbook cover, asking for long and nice logs.

 

But that is another story...

Absolutely. Thanks Kelux. And I like the idea about asking for more interesting logs. I think I'll do the same when I create a cache.

[+ArtieD]

You and others have at least acknowledged that agenda lit is a nuisance. If nothing else, it got you and other gamers who have been in the game for years a sense that even if the rules don't change, there are ways to educate others about problems that exist in the game in a fashion that abides by rules, yet at the same time publicly demonstrates to gamers that some rules, or the lack thereof, might be changeworthy.

 

Nothing is wrong and the rules do not need to be changed. Again, ignore that swag if you don't like it.

 

Maybe in your mind people are in general agreeing with your point, but don't presume to speak for others.

 

What you propose is no different than what you claim to hate...you are pushing your agenda on others.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian

[+MartyBartfast]

It's why agenda-literature should be banned.

 

So gather, brothers and sisters by the compass-rose alter of the Counter Agenda Card. Let us spread as many of these cards as we can today and swap them for all other agenda literature, so that those ungameworthy agendas may meet their soggy slowly composting inevitability.

 

 

I haven't read all of this thread as it's not something that is a problem in the UK (that I'm aware of), but the irony that you're going to leave literature in caches to push your own agenda against literature in caches is particularly staggering.

 

How is your agenda (and it is an agenda) any more acceptable than those against which you are railling?

 

Or maybe I missed something ?

[+ArtieD]

I haven't read all of this thread as it's not something that is a problem in the UK (that I'm aware of), but the irony that you're going to leave literature in caches to push your own agenda against literature in caches is particularly staggering.

 

The irony is delicious indeed.

 

How is your agenda (and it is an agenda) any more acceptable than those against which you are railling?

 

Or maybe I missed something ?

 

It isn't, but the OP fails to see it.

[+LaughterOnWater]

I haven't read all of this thread as it's not something that is a problem in the UK (that I'm aware of), but the irony that you're going to leave literature in caches to push your own agenda against literature in caches is particularly staggering.

 

The irony is delicious indeed.

Exactly. It's sublimely awful. But it is a fair swappable, and it has no agenda other than to counter all other agendas. A perfect swap-even. In areas where agenda lit is as-or-more common than any "swag", it's the only game-abiding retaliatory answer.

 

Where agenda lit is negligible, it's a non-issue. You don't need to print Counter Agenda Cards. Keep Calm and Cache On.

 

But logically, it's entirely appropriate to use this card where agenda lit is rampant. Others in the thread have pointed out that the only appropriate action is to swap up or even, the same was with any other item dropped into the cache. If others are swapping their mini-bike business flyers and restaurant menus for religious zines, that would be an even swap, right? So how is this any better or worse than other gamers swapping their preferred agenda lit? Isn't it actually better because it brings awareness to the fact that agenda lit (even the Counter Agenda Card) is just spam? This card is shouting quietly to be disallowed.

 

C

[+narcissa]

But logically, it's entirely appropriate to use this card where agenda lit is rampant.

 

Define "rampant."

[+bflentje]

Maybe I should back off a bit.

 

Yes, focus on problems of greater importance.. like feeding the poor and sheltering the homeless.

[+Car54]

OK, I will admit this comment is the height of nitpickiness, but I prefer to be called a "cacher" instead of "gamer". I know it doesn't actually harm me to be called a gamer, but I personally don't care for it. Maybe I should just be a bigger person and find it within me to ignore it.

 

Mrs. Car54

[+LaughterOnWater]

Maybe I should back off a bit.

 

Yes, focus on problems of greater importance.. like feeding the poor and sheltering the homeless.

I already do volunteer at a number of organizations.

Do you?

None of the organizations where I volunteer spam geocaches.

 

But logically, it's entirely appropriate to use this card where agenda lit is rampant.

 

Define "rampant."

rampant

- (especially of something unwelcome or unpleasant) flourishing or spreading unchecked."political violence was rampant"

[+cerberus1]

OK, I will admit this comment is the height of nitpickiness, but I prefer to be called a "cacher" instead of "gamer". I know it doesn't actually harm me to be called a gamer, but I personally don't care for it. Maybe I should just be a bigger person and find it within me to ignore it.

 

Mrs. Car54

I kinda agree. I still consider this a hobby.

If someone thinks me a hobbyist, I'm good with that.

[+narcissa]

rampant

- (especially of something unwelcome or unpleasant) flourishing or spreading unchecked."political violence was rampant"

 

And on what basis have you determined that this particular issue is rampant? Can you qualify this assessment?

[+bflentje]

Maybe I should back off a bit.

 

Yes, focus on problems of greater importance.. like feeding the poor and sheltering the homeless.

I already do volunteer at a number of organizations.

Do you?

None of the organizations where I volunteer spam geocaches.

 

This isn't about me. I do not waste my precious time on this earth worrying about 1st world problems like literature in a cache. You suggested you should back off a bit and I suggested ways you can fill the extra time on your calendar once you've finished printing out your anti-agenda cards.

[+ArtieD]

rampant

- (especially of something unwelcome or unpleasant) flourishing or spreading unchecked."political violence was rampant"

 

And on what basis have you determined that this particular issue is rampant? Can you qualify this assessment?

 

He's presumably found a few geocaches with things in it that he does not like, has amplified the importance of it and has determined it to be rampant.

 

That's at least what I gather from his posts.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Arthur & Trillian