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"?" caches


hukilaulau
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there has been a lot of discussion about how to keep your caches invisible to Intro App users.

three ideas are 1) PMO caches 2) multi-caches 3) mystery/puzzle caches.

I tried an experiment by placing two mystery caches where the caches were not at the listed coordinates, but the real coordinates were printed clearly on the cache page. One was called "READ THIS CACHE PAGE" and the other "ANTI INTRO".

On both pages I made it clear that my main goal was to keep TB's I was leaving out of the hands of Intro App users, and the only "trick" was that you have to read the cache page. This was intended to be an experiment to see how the idea was perceived by the community. Like it? Hate it? Indifferent? The reviewer temporarily rejected both of them, saying, "This is not a real puzzle, the coordinates are right there on the page."

 

I couldn't find anything in the guidelines that said a puzzle had to be hard. sometimes it's just a matter of choosing "view elements" or something. I've found several easy puzzle caches where the solution is staring right at you. So I'm interested in what the community thinks:

 

1) Do you like the idea?

 

2) Whether you like it or not, do you think there's any reason to not publish it?

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Personally I don't think it's a good idea, but it's your choice.

 

I don't see a reason not to publish, I've found several "puzzle" caches where the cache WAS hidden at the published co-ordinates, and others where it's not at the published co-ords but there's a "final" waypoint which contains the co-ords, in both cases the "puzzle" was just to work out that it's not a puzzle cache!

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I posted something similar just a week ago and the reply from more than one was, "I want to place caches I'll do and I don't like multis and puzzles" (or to that effect...).

 

We've seen puzzles where the actual coords are on the page.

Not sure what your issue was. Maybe an agenda?

 

I agree, it could be very simple, but won't show on the app.

An "if so and so did such and such on this date, the coords are... on this date, the coords are..." kinda puzzle even I can do. :)

 

A two-stage multi six feet apart works too.

 

But making a cache pmo is easy. Click. Which do you think'd be used most if "the app" is the only reason ?

Edited by cerberus1
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One was called "READ THIS CACHE PAGE" and the other "ANTI INTRO".

 

"Anti Intro" sounds agenda-ish to me. And not "respectful" of other cachers. Maybe that's the objection the reviewer had?

 

The reviewer temporarily rejected both of them, saying, "This is not a real puzzle, the coordinates are right there on the page."

 

that's interesting, because I've seen "?" where the coordinates are "right there on the cache page", but previously published caches aren't a precedent, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

I couldn't find anything in the guidelines that said a puzzle had to be hard. sometimes it's just a matter of choosing "view elements" or something. I've found several easy puzzle caches where the solution is staring right at you.

 

Nope, nothing about the "?" needing to be any more difficult than just reading the cache page.

 

It doesn't say that the "real" coordinates have to be different than the coordinates at the top of the page.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/about/guidelines.aspx

Mystery/Puzzle Caches

 

The information needed to solve this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

 

For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location, but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. The posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the appropriate vicinity searches and means that the mileage of Trackables passing through the cache will be reasonably accurate. Add the final set of coordinates and any additional waypoints to the cache listing before submitting for review.

 

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

 

1) Do you like the idea?

 

I like the idea that to find the cache, you actually need to read the cache page.

 

2) Whether you like it or not, do you think there's any reason to not publish it?

 

Don't know without reading the actual cache page.

 

 

B.

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It's called an "offset cache" and is typically listed as a multi-cache...though I've seen them listed as a "?" cache as well. Just give the person a distance and bearing and tell them the cache is not at the posted coordinates, but at the projected waypoint. You can still make your 'statement' without giving the reviewers heartburn.

Edited by J Grouchy
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I've done similar. One cache had paragraphs from random Wikipedia pages in the description, and the cache was at the posted location(I didn't say it wasn't)

 

I've also seen some puzzles where the CO uses ghosting. That is white text on the white background. Control+a highlights everything and makes it visible.

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I've done similar. One cache had paragraphs from random Wikipedia pages in the description, and the cache was at the posted location(I didn't say it wasn't)

 

I've also seen some puzzles where the CO uses ghosting. That is white text on the white background. Control+a highlights everything and makes it visible.

 

Apparently there was a time when one could publish a traditional cache as a "?" cache even though it WAS at the posted coordinates. I've found a couple like this, where there was no puzzle or mystery whatsoever.

 

Examples:

http://coord.info/GCMFXD

http://coord.info/GCH7J3

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It's called an "offset cache" and is typically listed as a multi-cache...though I've seen them listed as a "?" cache as well. Just give the person a distance and bearing and tell them the cache is not at the posted coordinates, but at the projected waypoint. You can still make your 'statement' without giving the reviewers heartburn.

I suspect the fact that he's trying to make a 'statement' with the cache page is the problem. If it wasn't considered to be a violation of the agenda guideline, it probably should have been.
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I've done similar. One cache had paragraphs from random Wikipedia pages in the description, and the cache was at the posted location(I didn't say it wasn't)

 

I wonder how much time people wasted trying to find the puzzle in the cache description before giving up.

 

I've some instances of geoart that consisted of puzzle caches that were intended to be as easy as possible. In one case, the description for each puzzle contained a word, and there were specific instructions on the page which explained how to convert the word into digits (a simple alpha to numeric substitution). To me, that comes across a gaming the system so that geoart could be created without proximity issues and worrying about where the actual cache is located.

 

 

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

Edited by JPreto
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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

 

I'd much rather see a cache that is designed to be extremely difficult than another parking lot cache set to PMO.

 

Nothing wrong with cache owners setting the bar a bit higher by requiring finders to think once in a while.

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

The spirit of the game is to be free and open? No, here we pay to play and support the private company that provides us a service.

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

 

I'd much rather see a cache that is designed to be extremely difficult than another parking lot cache set to PMO.

 

Nothing wrong with cache owners setting the bar a bit higher by requiring finders to think once in a while.

I agree. Especially when their reach keeps expanding with each release (new one today...)/update, with still no consideration to the owners of the caches.

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..."ANTI INTRO".

 

On both pages I made it clear that my main goal was to keep TB's I was leaving out of the hands of Intro App users, and the only "trick" was that you have to read the cache page.

First, while I'm not a reviewer, I see a cache named "ANTI INTRO" and containing such a statement in the description as clearly failing the "no agenda" guideline. On that count alone, I would support not publishing the cache.

 

Second, by stating that you're only making it a "?" to prevent Intro app users from viewing it, you're freely admitting that you're submitting it with an intentionally incorrect cache type. A reviewer would be perfectly within their rights to deny publication until you change the cache type to the correct one, which would be Traditional in this case.

 

While I understand that you want to make a statement, I don't feel this is the way to do it.

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

Since 23 April 2012, the guidelines have contained the following (Guidelines section II-2.-3.):

The information needed to solve this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

...

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

Puzzles where you have to guess what the hider was thinking are no longer allowed.

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Especially when their reach keeps expanding with each release (new one today...)/update, with still no consideration to the owners of the caches.

The reach of INTRO APPS is allowed by GeoCaching.com website, that permits connections to the database. They could only allow their app to do it, right?

 

I follow the same line of thought... that can be wrong but it is... If Groundspeak allows it I´m not going to find ways to inhibit Groundspeak allowance, thus, in my opinion, going against the spirit of the game projected by Groundspeak, to be free for all that have a GPSr device.

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Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

Since 23 April 2012, the guidelines have contained the following (Guidelines section II-2.-3.):

The information needed to solve this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

...

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

Puzzles where you have to guess what the hider was thinking are no longer allowed.

I knew that guideline put I also know of some geocachers after the "?" is published they change the description is order for it to be almost impossible to solve. One of those caches was disabled by reviewers after the post-publication changes, when they understood what was happening. :ph34r:

 

Moreover, if I cipher the coordinates with some word or number that makes sense (BrazilGeocaching) and thus approved by reviewers. Guessing what type cipher I used and doing reverse on that can be very very tricky for you but for all my friends that know it, it is quite simple! You have "virtually" a private geocaching game listed in GC.com. No?

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I agree with the posters that have said that the caches appear agenda driven. You're clearly and directly saying, "one segment of the geocaching community is unworthy; I'm setting up this cache so they can't do it."

 

However, I've got a cache I set as a mystery to keep intro app users away. :ph34r: I just didn't say it so blatantly on the cache page. The coords for the cache are in a nearby, traditional cache (which intro users can find, but do they know what "Q.P.Q. 43.123 N, 78.123 W" means, and can they navigate to it?), so there's not a big puzzle aside from finding one other cache. :)

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I knew that guideline put I also know of some geocachers after the "?" is published they change the description is order for it to be almost impossible to solve. One of those caches was disabled by reviewers after the post-publication changes, when they understood what was happening. :ph34r:

Changing a cache post-publication to get around a guideline is an excellent way to get on the bad side of a reviewer very quickly. If you know of any cases where this has happened and the reviewer doesn't know about it, feel free to let them know. I'd fully support you acting as what some would term a "cache cop" in scenarios like this. When this happens, caches are generally archived as fast as the reviewer can get to the button.

 

Moreover, if I cipher the coordinates with some word or number that makes sense (BrazilGeocaching) and thus approved by reviewers. Guessing what type cipher I used and doing reverse on that can be very very tricky for you but for all my friends that know it, it is quite simple! You have "virtually" a private geocaching game listed in GC.com. No?

This is a common type of puzzle. With the ones I've seen, there's usually some type of hint on the page to help identify the cipher and/or keyword. A cache where there's no hint for either would be virtually impossible and I don't think many reviewers would allow them. Remember, "the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page".

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

Actually, if your goal is to make caches accessible to a wider audience, then you've got it backwards.

 

The PMO option also "discriminates." And it discriminates not just against INTRO APP users but also against non-paying members. The OP's method only discriminates against INTRO APP users.

 

Of course, if your goal really is to open the game to every user, then you should be opposed to both the OP's idea and PMOs...and Wherigos and 5-star terrain caches and UV-flashlight caches and...

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PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

Actually, if your goal is to make caches accessible to a wider audience, then you've got it backwards.

 

The PMO option also "discriminates." And it discriminates not just against INTRO APP users but also against non-paying members. The OP's method only discriminates against INTRO APP users.

I don´t say I agree with PMOs... They discriminate, no doubt about it! But if you see my profile I don´t own a single one! What I say is that under the proposals of the OP, PMO seems the only one within the spirit of the game proposed by Groundspeak. Groundspeak allows PMO so, according to them, It´s within the game rules. the other hypothesis are, in my opinion, ways to bend the guidelines.

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"?" caches are not, as many believe, "puzzles". "?" caches are "Unknown" caches, and can be anything you come up with that allows GPS technology to be used to find a physical container at a set of coordinates.

 

Mystery/Unknown caches can be at the coordinates.

 

I'd appeal this right up to Groundspeak. appeals@Groundspeak.com

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Remember, "the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page".

 

That statement still provides a lot of wiggle room. For example, an unknown cache is supposed to be within 2 miles of the published coordinates. I'll often use the published coordinates to help solve a puzzle, but if it's the only information provided on the cache page that can be used to determine the actual coordinates it's "technically" solvable. I actually saw an unknown cache which only stated that the final was on a guardrail within 1 mile of the published coordinates. The published coordinates were in the center of a grid of rural roads which apparently had a guardrail along one of them.

 

I don't know if the requirement to describe the methodolgy used for a puzzle prohibits guess what I'm thinking puzzles. I've seen quite a few puzzle where people have apparently solved but I can't find a clue on how to even approach it.

 

 

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Thanks for all the great replies!

I realize now that I really do have an agenda and it is completely transparent. I DO NOT want these caches to be "available to everyone."

There are simpler ways to accomplish that without bringing my personal bias into it.

The reviewer did not mention this aspect, only questioned the puzzle part. If he had said it sounded like I was pushing an agenda I probably would have just changed them to PMO caches (and changed the names) and moved on. I guess it's clear that my thoughts on the INTRO APP belong in the forums and not on my cache pages!

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I like the idea that to find the cache, you actually need to read the cache page.

 

Whether you like it or not, do you think there's any reason to not publish it?

 

Don't know without reading the actual cache page.

 

Asking a cacher to look at the cache page is, indeed, a chore.

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Remember, "the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page".

 

That statement still provides a lot of wiggle room. For example, an unknown cache is supposed to be within 2 miles of the published coordinates. I'll often use the published coordinates to help solve a puzzle, but if it's the only information provided on the cache page that can be used to determine the actual coordinates it's "technically" solvable. I actually saw an unknown cache which only stated that the final was on a guardrail within 1 mile of the published coordinates. The published coordinates were in the center of a grid of rural roads which apparently had a guardrail along one of them.

I don't know if the requirement to describe the methodology used for a puzzle prohibits guess what I'm thinking puzzles. I've seen quite a few puzzle where people have apparently solved but I can't find a clue on how to even approach it.

It's good to hear from a veteran that I'm not alone with puzzle problems. I think the unspoken secrets of puzzles are : (1) in many cases you do have to read the creator's mind, & (2) many puzzle-solvers get help.

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PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

Actually, if your goal is to make caches accessible to a wider audience, then you've got it backwards.

 

The PMO option also "discriminates." And it discriminates not just against INTRO APP users but also against non-paying members. The OP's method only discriminates against INTRO APP users.

 

Of course, if your goal really is to open the game to every user, then you should be opposed to both the OP's idea and PMOs...and Wherigos and 5-star terrain caches and UV-flashlight caches and...

I don´t say I agree with PMOs... They discriminate, no doubt about it! But if you see my profile I don´t own a single one!

Previously, you said PMOs are okay for you. Not so much now, I guess.

 

What I say is that under the proposals of the OP, PMO seems the only one within the spirit of the game proposed by Groundspeak.

So, I guess you threw in that goal "to be open to every user" just to add meaningless words to your post.

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I've found a number of puzzle caches that were at the posted coordinates. I've found a number of puzzle caches where the puzzle itself was pretty trivial, although none had the coordinates in plain text with no obfuscation whatsoever. I've seen challenge caches where the challenge was easily fulfilled by even the newest newbie.

 

If you want a mystery/puzzle cache that can be found by virtually anyone who can read the cache description, then it seems to me that you should be able to do so in a way that complies with the guidelines.

 

Just watch out for agendas.

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

 

As a cache owner, I am not able to understand why anyone would put out a puzzle cache that only they or a close circle of friends could solve. If the object is to frustrate the puzzle solvers, congrats...they win. If they actually want the cache found by solving the puzzle, they'll probably die of boredom before that happens.

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I think that the reviewer should react to the fact that the cache is not of the right type.

 

If the listing contains the final coordinates, it's actually a tradi, not multi or mystery.

 

Making such 'mysteries' will mess with statistics, because people will be finding mysteries like tradis. Many people are proud that they have not so many finds, but, say, 20% of them are mysteries. You'll depreciate that statistic by placing such caches.

 

It's enough that the 'smiley' statistic was broken by the power trails.

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I think that the reviewer should react to the fact that the cache is not of the right type.

 

If the listing contains the final coordinates, it's actually a tradi, not multi or mystery.

 

Making such 'mysteries' will mess with statistics, because people will be finding mysteries like tradis. Many people are proud that they have not so many finds, but, say, 20% of them are mysteries. You'll depreciate that statistic by placing such caches.

 

It's enough that the 'smiley' statistic was broken by the power trails.

 

A traditional is at the *posted* coordinates. Most mystery cache descriptions contain the final coordinates in some fashion. Some are just easier to extract than others.

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Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

Since 23 April 2012, the guidelines have contained the following (Guidelines section II-2.-3.):

The information needed to solve this type cache must be available to the general community and the puzzle should be solvable from the information provided on the cache page.

...

Before you submit the cache listing, post a Note to Reviewer with an explanation of how the puzzle is solved. This log will auto-delete on publication.

Puzzles where you have to guess what the hider was thinking are no longer allowed.

I knew that guideline put I also know of some geocachers after the "?" is published they change the description is order for it to be almost impossible to solve. One of those caches was disabled by reviewers after the post-publication changes, when they understood what was happening. :ph34r:

 

Moreover, if I cipher the coordinates with some word or number that makes sense (BrazilGeocaching) and thus approved by reviewers. Guessing what type cipher I used and doing reverse on that can be very very tricky for you but for all my friends that know it, it is quite simple! You have "virtually" a private geocaching game listed in GC.com. No?

 

Not really. There are many caches that make use of ciphers. Just make sure the difficulty level is appropriate. If you want to give hints to your friends, as a cache owner that is your business.

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A traditional is at the *posted* coordinates. Most mystery cache descriptions contain the final coordinates in some fashion. Some are just easier to extract than others.

 

Yes, but posting final coordinates in plain text is already a 'going around' the type definition.

It's like making multi with 1 meter projection. Technically possible, but practically it's not a quiz/multi.

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Making such 'mysteries' will mess with statistics, because people will be finding mysteries like tradis. Many people are proud that they have not so many finds, but, say, 20% of them are mysteries. You'll depreciate that statistic by placing such caches.

 

I don't buy that argument. You still have a choice over which caches you will hunt.

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Before the intro app made PMO caches all the rage we occasionally had people complain about people not reading the cache listings. Sometimes the listing contained important nformation that was being overlooked.

 

The advice was often to make it a mystery and put the coordinates on the csche page.

 

Other than the agenda issue, I don't see a difference.

 

If you want to be legalistic about it, then change the last digit of the coordinate and then your cache will no longer be at the posted coordinates. Then put the correct coordinates in the listing.

 

(And remove the agenda wording)

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PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.

Actually, if your goal is to make caches accessible to a wider audience, then you've got it backwards.

 

The PMO option also "discriminates." And it discriminates not just against INTRO APP users but also against non-paying members. The OP's method only discriminates against INTRO APP users.

 

Of course, if your goal really is to open the game to every user, then you should be opposed to both the OP's idea and PMOs...and Wherigos and 5-star terrain caches and UV-flashlight caches and...

I don´t say I agree with PMOs... They discriminate, no doubt about it! But if you see my profile I don´t own a single one!

Previously, you said PMOs are okay for you. Not so much now, I guess.

 

What I say is that under the proposals of the OP, PMO seems the only one within the spirit of the game proposed by Groundspeak.

So, I guess you threw in that goal "to be open to every user" just to add meaningless words to your post.

 

In the first part I answer to the OP question which one you would choose: "1) PMO caches 2) multi-caches 3) mystery/puzzle caches." So I said PMO is OK to protect the cache, selecting from the options mentioned.

 

The second part, responding to a wider audience I said that I do not like PMO exactly because they discriminate, that´s why I don´t have a single one.

 

I don´t see any contradiction in that, if that´s what you are trying to point out... :blink:

Edited by JPreto
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I think that the reviewer should react to the fact that the cache is not of the right type.

 

If the listing contains the final coordinates, it's actually a tradi, not multi or mystery.

 

Making such 'mysteries' will mess with statistics, because people will be finding mysteries like tradis. Many people are proud that they have not so many finds, but, say, 20% of them are mysteries. You'll depreciate that statistic by placing such caches.

 

It's enough that the 'smiley' statistic was broken by the power trails.

 

A traditional is at the *posted* coordinates. Most mystery cache descriptions contain the final coordinates in some fashion. Some are just easier to extract than others.

 

You could put a padlock on the cache.

Then make it a "?" for the lock...

 

Doesn't mean the lock 'locks' the cache. :ph34r:

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I call this discrimination on INTRO APP users... they are also geocachers, right?

It isn't at all discriminatory as these people would still have full access to the cache information if they simply accessed it from the website.

 

Imagine that people start doing "?" with some key/riddle that only the friends understand? Would you like that?

 

Imagine a community that uses GC.com for listing their caches, all are "?" with special codes that only they can decode? You couldn´t neither place nor visit any cache within that community. Would you like that?

A person who has read the listing guidelines would know that such a cache would not be listed.

 

PMO is, for me, ok to protect your cache from new users but I feel that doing it like you are talking is against the spirit of the game to be open to every user, even tho there are some problems of being like that.
I have little doubt that there is an active thread on this very issue or will be one in the next day or so, so I'll leave that side discussion alone. Edited by sbell111
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A traditional is at the *posted* coordinates. Most mystery cache descriptions contain the final coordinates in some fashion. Some are just easier to extract than others.

 

Yes, but posting final coordinates in plain text is already a 'going around' the type definition.

It's like making multi with 1 meter projection. Technically possible, but practically it's not a quiz/multi.

 

The question is where you draw the line. I've seen many purposely easy puzzles. E.g. watch a video and at the end the coordinates are shown.

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Moreover, if I cipher the coordinates with some word or number that makes sense (BrazilGeocaching) and thus approved by reviewers. Guessing what type cipher I used and doing reverse on that can be very very tricky for you but for all my friends that know it, it is quite simple! You have "virtually" a private geocaching game listed in GC.com. No?

No more or less than you would by using any word for the cipher key. It isn't impossible to solve and once it is, you'd find that it is quickly shared among the local community.

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I don't know if the requirement to describe the methodolgy used for a puzzle prohibits guess what I'm thinking puzzles. I've seen quite a few puzzle where people have apparently solved but I can't find a clue on how to even approach it.

That's most every puzzle cache that I've ever seen.
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A traditional is at the *posted* coordinates. Most mystery cache descriptions contain the final coordinates in some fashion. Some are just easier to extract than others.

 

Yes, but posting final coordinates in plain text is already a 'going around' the type definition.

It's like making multi with 1 meter projection. Technically possible, but practically it's not a quiz/multi.

 

It's still not a traditional, since the owner doesn't intend it to be found at the *posted* coordinates. It has nothing to do with your silly statistics.

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