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Steve Dogan

Still missing after all this time?

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I'm looking for: N 44° 10.697 W 088° 16.338 From what I've been able to gather, it's somewhere in a big "spider web" in a local park playground. If it's up there, I can't climb those due to back issues and balance! Can I get help from a local? (Sherwood, Wis. USA) Is it up there, or is it somewhere else in the park

:mad:

Edited by Steve Dogan

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From what I've been able to gather, it's somewhere in a big "spider web" in a local park playground.

I wouldn't think so. Using Google Maps, the spider web is over 100 feet away from the coordinates. It's also extremely rare to see any cache containers hidden right on playground equipment, because the little kids explore every square inch of those things and it wouldn't last long.

 

I'd suggest you pick another cache as your first. This one involves looking for a tiny (you wouldn't believe how tiny!) container, which can be difficult even for experienced cachers. Try looking for a Traditional type cache with a size of regular or bigger. Once you sink your teeth into some like that, you'll start to think more like a cacher and can take on tougher caches.

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I'm looking for: N 44° 10.697 W 088° 16.338 From what I've been able to gather, it's somewhere in a big "spider web" in a local park playground. If it's up there, I can't climb those due to back issues and balance! Can I get help from a local? (Sherwood, Wis. USA) Is it up there, or is it somewhere else in the park

:mad:

 

If it's http://coord.info/GC12XJZ then the final of this multicache does appear to be in the spider web of the playground. (See the photos posted for the cache. *Spoiler*)

 

The problem I see with this cache is the low terrain rating of 2. That seems out of line with the climbing/dexterity required to retrieve the final container and sign the log.

 

Not all caches are meant to be found by all cachers. D/T ratings are supposed to reflect what abilities are required to retrieve the container and sign the log.

 

If you can find a local caching group, then maybe you could team up with someone to help.

 

 

B.

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From what I've been able to gather, it's somewhere in a big "spider web" in a local park playground.

I wouldn't think so. Using Google Maps, the spider web is over 100 feet away from the coordinates. It's also extremely rare to see any cache containers hidden right on playground equipment, because the little kids explore every square inch of those things and it wouldn't last long.

 

I'd suggest you pick another cache as your first. This one involves looking for a tiny (you wouldn't believe how tiny!) container, which can be difficult even for experienced cachers. Try looking for a Traditional type cache with a size of regular or bigger. Once you sink your teeth into some like that, you'll start to think more like a cacher and can take on tougher caches.

 

The coordinates posted by the OP bring me to this cache:

 

http://coord.info/GC12XJZ

 

Looking at the spoiler phtos, and reading the logs, the final container IS in the spider web and IS a regular container. Only stage 1 is a nano. (It's a multicache.)

 

Old cache published 2007, might not have made it through the Guidelines today.

 

And I don't think the Terrain 2 rating is appropriate for climbing a kids' spider web.

 

 

B.

Edited by Pup Patrol

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It kinda' looks like it's not in a container, but rather just a piece of paper stuck in the gap in the top....whatever it's called. Anyway, if what I see is it, it's WAAAAY up on the top of the thing. -GRRRRR!

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If it's up there, I can't climb those due to back issues and balance! Can I get help from a local?

 

Sure. Why not? I've had to get quite a bit of help over the years, especially after my caching accident back in '08. Since then I can't climb and my sense of balance is shot also. I have a few friends - cachers and non-cachers - who are more than happy to help me make the final grab. I still do the thinking part, they just act as my eyes and hands in places I can't go like up in a tree. Usually I can see the cache from ground level and just need someone to retrieve and return it for me. But to be clear, if I can't get to GZ, I won't take the find.

 

One of my cacher friends new I could not make it across a rugged valley to a cache and he offered to go find it and put both of our names in the log so I could log it. I don't know if he put both in there or not and it does not matter. I couldn't get to GZ, I'm not taking the smiley.

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It kinda' looks like it's not in a container, but rather just a piece of paper stuck in the gap in the top....whatever it's called. Anyway, if what I see is it, it's WAAAAY up on the top of the thing. -GRRRRR!

 

Unless things have changed a lot, there is a "regular" size container to be found at the 2nd location. Hence the name of the multicache.

 

Trackables have actually been placed in the final container. I'm stunned that this cache hasn't disappeared every day.

 

 

B.

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A caching friend of mine was once confronted with a cache that had been hidden near the top of an abandoned utility pole, maybe 30 feet up. He could see the cache, a bison tube, from the ground. He's like me, he no longer climbs trees and poles to get to a cache.

 

Just as he was about to give up on the cache, he spotted a young kid, maybe 12 years old, walking by. He offered the kid money (he never told me how much) to climb up the pole, retrieve the cache, bring it down, then replace it after my friend signed the log. The kid climbed the pole in a flash, and my friend claimed the smiley.

 

Thinking about the ethics of the situation, I don't think I could claim a smiley for a cache I couldn't personally get to, but my friend was pretty pleased with himself for solving the problem the way he did.

 

A similar situation arises when a group of cachers looks for a cache hidden high in a tree. I've been present a few times when one cacher (usually the self-proclaimed monkey in the group) climbs up the tree and brings the cache down to the group, whereupon everyone signs the log. I don't, and won't, criticize fellow cachers for that practice, but I've ending up feeling guilty when I've claimed the smiley on-line. If faced with that situation today, I might sign the paper log (peer pressure is a powerful force), but I would probably refrain from claiming the smiley on-line.

 

--Larry

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I did that one some time ago. No need to climb or play around the spiderweb thingy unless you want to do it for fun. I remember WP1 was a bit of a reach for me while keeping both feet on the ground....and WP1 is a container......

Edited by AstroD-Team

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Just as he was about to give up on the cache, he spotted a young kid, maybe 12 years old, walking by. He offered the kid money (he never told me how much) to climb up the pole, retrieve the cache, bring it down, then replace it after my friend signed the log. The kid climbed the pole in a flash, and my friend claimed the smiley.

 

Thinking about the ethics of the situation, I don't think I could claim a smiley for a cache I couldn't personally get to, but my friend was pretty pleased with himself for solving the problem the way he did.

I've logged a number of caches by using various retrieval tools, rather than somehow getting myself to the cache. Some retrieval tools have been provided by the CO. Some, I've improvised myself. I don't see much difference between using some sort of retrieval tool and arranging for someone to assist you.

 

I've even found a cache where the CO recommended bringing a small child to assist with the cache retrieval.

 

A similar situation arises when a group of cachers looks for a cache hidden high in a tree. I've been present a few times when one cacher (usually the self-proclaimed monkey in the group) climbs up the tree and brings the cache down to the group, whereupon everyone signs the log. I don't, and won't, criticize fellow cachers for that practice, but I've ending up feeling guilty when I've claimed the smiley on-line. If faced with that situation today, I might sign the paper log (peer pressure is a powerful force), but I would probably refrain from claiming the smiley on-line.
I've found multi-stage caches as part of a group. By the "gotta do it all myself" logic, none of us should have logged them. One person climbed a tree and tossed the container down, another person opened the container and tossed it back up when we were done, another person decoded the puzzle in the container, another person found the second stage, another person used his hiking staff to open the lid at the second stage, another person used her UV light to decode the instructions under the lid at the second stage, another person found the third stage, another person found the mechanism to lower the third stage, and so on.

 

Personally, I like searching huckle buckle beanstalk style. But if I'm in a group that prefers three musketeers style, I don't refuse to log the caches where someone else shouted "Got it!" and held the cache overhead for everyone to see.

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I did that one some time ago. No need to climb or play around the spiderweb thingy unless you want to do it for fun. I remember WP1 was a bit of a reach for me while keeping both feet on the ground....and WP1 is a container......

 

Interesting. From the cache page, I assumed that it was a typical multicache. Redirect in the first stage (a nano) and the log book is in stage 2 (regular).

 

Did you sign a log book, or did you just find stage 1 and consider that a "find"?

 

Or is there a log book in stage 1 and the cache is no longer a multicache?

 

 

B.

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I did that one some time ago. No need to climb or play around the spiderweb thingy unless you want to do it for fun. I remember WP1 was a bit of a reach for me while keeping both feet on the ground....and WP1 is a container......

 

Interesting. From the cache page, I assumed that it was a typical multicache. Redirect in the first stage (a nano) and the log book is in stage 2 (regular).

 

Did you sign a log book, or did you just find stage 1 and consider that a "find"?

 

Or is there a log book in stage 1 and the cache is no longer a multicache?

 

B.

 

It's a typical multicache. WP1 is a container (nano) holding coords to the final (regular) which holds the logbook (yeah, I signed the logbook - twice actually!). If the OP needs help, the CO is a great guy and would offer assistance if asked!!

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I'm looking for: N 44° 10.697 W 088° 16.338 From what I've been able to gather, it's somewhere in a big "spider web" in a local park playground. If it's up there, I can't climb those due to back issues and balance! Can I get help from a local? (Sherwood, Wis. USA) Is it up there, or is it somewhere else in the park

:mad:

 

If the OP needs help, the CO is a great guy and would offer assistance if asked!!

 

As AstroD stated...Giz is more than happy to give you any help you might need.

 

That being said, with a little seasoning under your belt, the final location for this multi is pretty easy to deduce even without finding WP1. It's "around" the park somewhere.

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Well, my instincts tell me that the log sheet couldn't be just stuck inside the gap of the corner of the bumper considering it would constantly be exposed to weather. It would HAVE TO be IN something, wouldn't it? It's just that none of the other bumpers (whatever those things in all the corners the ropes are tied to are called)appear to have anything stuck in them. This looks like something in the gap between the center metal piece and the outside plastic pad. But it just doesn't make sense someone would leave it exposed to weather like that.....

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I'm STILL looking for that one supposedly hidden in that park in Sherwood Wisconsin with the big spider web thing. The coordinates lead me to the N.E. corner of the pavilion in the front of the park closest to the road but there is nowhere to hide it there except in the eaves trough running along the edge of the roof. Problem is, I doubt it would be there because you can't get up there without dragging a 12' ladder along. (I don't think the current construction guys, or the people around the park or the town's liability insurance would like that too much!) It's not under the trash can, it's not under the edge of the counter window or under a picnic table and it certainly wouldn't be hiding in any of the construction machinery or in a roped off area. If it were in 1 of the washrooms, that would mean that 50% of people couldn't find it :)

I thought it was in the web up on the top but the coordinates are WAAAAY off for that and was told it ain't there anyway. There's no place else to put it without it being stepped on. Is it not there anymore?

Edited by Steve Dogan

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Boy, I dunno...

 

I finally found your previous thread (using your cryptic descriptions of what your were referring to) and even the cache itself (on the map).

 

Must ask though, have you really read the responses in your earlier thread? You posted responses but it doesn't seem like you read any of those that actually provided help. At least one of those respondents has actually found it (the cache).

 

If you are short in stature or cannot climb, it's obvious to me that you cannot get stage 1 (without some help, anyway). So... perhaps you shouldn't waste time looking under anything or expect to step on it. Previous logs indicate that you should be looking (or feeling) higher. The first stage is a nano -- it can be smaller than your little fingernail.

 

With your current status of "finely honed" geocaching abilities, it is a pretty big leap to assume it isn't there anymore.

 

Is this your first search? I see no "Finds" in your profile. If it is your first attempt, perhaps you should just disregard this one for the time being and obtain some experience finding easier ones for a bit. Experience does wonders at fine-tuning one's "geo-senses".

I think you should log your DNF and go out to find some others, first.

That sounded pretty crude, but it really is easier with a bit more practice and it just may help you learn what you need to look for.

 

Lastly... don't get "stuck" into believing that your GPSr will take you TO it, normally it only takes you to "near" it.

Edited by Gitchee-Gummee

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There really wasn't any reason to start a new thread about the same cache.

 

You've gotten some serious hints in the current thread:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=313235

 

Have you asked the cache owner for a hint?

 

Perhaps you should let this one go for a while, and try your hand at finding some other caches.

 

It might be easier to start with looking for single stage, "traditional" caches, with ratings of 1.0/1.0, and sizes of "small" or larger.

 

 

B.

Edited by Pup Patrol

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A building like the one shown on the satellite map would probably have several places to hide a nano. It could be as small as (or smaller than) the tip of your little finger.

I am a little curious why you're so intent on finding this one now. There are a number of caches in the area that would be easier, and would give you some valuable experience.

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I guess many people misunderstand me and/or my intentions due to my writing style and issues understanding some things (all I care to elaborate on that is issues not of my fault)so sometimes it takes me awhile to fully understand or "get" things. (I've been told a hundred times I repeat things and don't notice -nothing intentional to "bug" anyone.)

Some of the way I write comes off "different" (wired personality on that one guys). I was more paraphrasing/half kidding when I talked about looking under the trash can as well as my "50% of people wouldn't be able to get to it" referring to it being in the public washroom (I thought the humor in that would be evident) :)

Don't mean to come across the wrong way guys, just don't take anything I say as intentionally trying to annoy or repeat myself, etc., huh? :)

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Many who responded to my first 2 or 3 topics really were a help, but then the thing suddenly disappeared.

I guess chat boards are filled with people who take things WAY too seriously and aren't willing to have room for those who are different. Sorry, won't bother anyone again. I'll do what I can on my own.

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I merged together two threads about the same cache hunt.

 

If you DNF your own thread, do a search on your previous posts to find it - either from the forum search feature or from your Geocaching.com public profile page.

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Many who responded to my first 2 or 3 topics really were a help, but then the thing suddenly disappeared.

I guess chat boards are filled with people who take things WAY too seriously and aren't willing to have room for those who are different. Sorry, won't bother anyone again. I'll do what I can on my own.

OK, I merged *this* separate thread too. Please let me do my job, by keeping your discussion all in one place. Please don't start repeated threads about the same subject, and you won't get your threads merged (not disappeared).

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Steve Dogan, complete the challenge of the cache experience - keep looking...

perhaps bring along someone else to help you retrieve the elusive stage 1... OR... forget that cache hide. then go look for another one...

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Many who responded to my first 2 or 3 topics really were a help, but then the thing suddenly disappeared.

I guess chat boards are filled with people who take things WAY too seriously and aren't willing to have room for those who are different. Sorry, won't bother anyone again. I'll do what I can on my own.

OK, I merged *this* separate thread too. Please let me do my job, by keeping your discussion all in one place. Please don't start repeated threads about the same subject, and you won't get your threads merged (not disappeared).

As I said, apparently many people today don't give those who are different a chance. It's nothing intentional I did. I'm probably going to unknowingly or unintentionally do it again not understanding. Just please get rid of my posts and I won't mess up anything again.

Don't take this wrong...it's ME people don't understand. Nothing at all against you.

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Many who responded to my first 2 or 3 topics really were a help, but then the thing suddenly disappeared.

I guess chat boards are filled with people who take things WAY too seriously and aren't willing to have room for those who are different. Sorry, won't bother anyone again. I'll do what I can on my own.

OK, I merged *this* separate thread too. Please let me do my job, by keeping your discussion all in one place. Please don't start repeated threads about the same subject, and you won't get your threads merged (not disappeared).

As I said, apparently many people today don't give those who are different a chance. It's nothing intentional I did. I'm probably going to unknowingly or unintentionally do it again not understanding. Just please get rid of my posts and I won't mess up anything again.

Don't take this wrong...it's ME people don't understand. Nothing at all against you.

 

Steve, the most important thing that you can learn about Geocaching is that you don't have to find all of the caches, and that there are some that you simply will never find. Just put this one aside in your head for a bit and go find some others.

 

I looked on and off for one cache for over seven years. If I had refused to find any others until I had found that one, I wouldn't have done very much geocaching.

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OK, where does this go before I get chewed out again? :)

How long does one have to wait before reporting one smuggled out of its spot? That one at that park in Sherwood is NOT there guys. I've looked at every square inch of that building and it's not there. Gimme' another hint or 2 and I'll go away if I'm wrong about it missing. :) Obviously it's not taped to the side of the building, I was told (due to height clues about ....keeping your feet on the ground) it's not under the water fountain or any of the tables -unless the person who said that is a midget.

Yeah, I KNOW I'm focused on this one, but it's part of me (it's hard to explain so anyone would understand) to go at something until I finish it. It's just bugging the heck out of me not seeing it :) I'm about 6' tall. Would I have a hard time "keeping both feet on the ground" Is it in an area that could easily be demolished by a large enough supply of termites or beavers, or would you need hydrochloric acid to do that?

If it's too risky giving hints here (I can understand why) let me know at: stevexdogan "at" yahoo "dot" c o m (I didn't know if actual addresses would show here)

Edited by Steve Dogan

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Rather than post something derogatory about starting yet another new thread :rolleyes: , I'll just suggest looking for the final in the little woodlot about 500 feet away and a little south of due east.

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You don't need to start new threads for the same topic. You were told by the moderator Keystone to not start new threads about the same topic.

 

Is there a reason you can't log a "dnf" and just move on to looking for other caches?

 

Did you take the advice given in your other thread and ask the cache owner for a hint or some help?

 

Did you read the help given in the other thread that people who have found it gave to you?

 

You do realize that you are looking for a nano for stage 1? A nano can be very, very small.

 

There have been no "found it" logs posted since last year. The first stage might be missing, or it might not be.

 

Posting a "dnf" is the best course of action here.

 

http://coord.info/GC12XJZ

 

 

B.

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You don't need to start new threads for the same topic. You were told by the moderator Keystone to not start new threads about the same topic.

 

Is there a reason you can't log a "dnf" and just move on to looking for other caches?

 

Did you take the advice given in your other thread and ask the cache owner for a hint or some help?

 

Did you read the help given in the other thread that people who have found it gave to you?

 

You do realize that you are looking for a nano for stage 1? A nano can be very, very small.

 

There have been no "found it" logs posted since last year. The first stage might be missing, or it might not be.

 

Posting a "dnf" is the best course of action here.

 

http://coord.info/GC12XJZ

 

 

B.

As I said in a previous note somewhere, I'm not up on "etiquette" or "norm" in chat room stuff (I'm rather new, and don't go on them much anyway, and also have issues that make it hard to understand or absorb info. ....I don't mean to annoy anyone -or whatever the term is on-line- intentionally.)

Anywho, this first small thing is what I need to find (for myself if nothing else) as stated before. All I need is a clue or 2. Maybe there's 1 in my e-mail already....I'll check. That's why I asked about the "termites or HCL acid"

Again, this "thread" and "topic" and "room" etc. stuff confuses me. I don't mean to break any rules intentionally. What exactly is a "new thread about the same topic"? I guess I never understood the meaning of that.

Edited by Steve Dogan

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This is a thread, a newly created post on the board /forum which people can read and reply in.

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This is a thread, a newly created post on the board /forum which people can read and reply in.

 

And since this is about something you asked about before it's a new thread on the same topic. There's no need to do that. It ignores previous replies, and is repetitive. Like asking your friend "what do I do about X?!" every day.

 

Have you asked the cache owner for advice? That's step one. It's their cache.

 

And if the hint is to keep your feet on the floor, why can't it be on a picnic table? I crouch with my feet on the floor.

 

It hasn't been found in a year. It may or may not be missing. Message the cache owner.

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I agree, it is very possibly missing so my advice would be email the cache owner to check if its still there.

 

Log your DNF if you haven't already, and if you're confident you've looked everywhere then you can log a Needs Maintenance on it.

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Log your DNF if you haven't already, and if you're confident you've looked everywhere then you can log a Needs Maintenance on it.

I can't tell you how many times I've been confident that I've "looked everywhere" and the cache turned up somewhere else. Logging a DNF is good advice. If there are several other DNFs already posted, then it might be time for a Needs Maintenance (and a site visit by the owner).

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A couple terms:

 

Topic: What you are talking about. In this case, a tough multi cache.

 

Thread: When you click on "Start A New Topic", you are opening up a thread.

 

Post: Each reply to a topic is a post.

 

Free advice: Some people skim the first post and inflict their thoughts on the topic immediately. For that reason and others, very few people are willing to repeat their advice even if you don't get it on the first reading. If you don't understand, read it a few more times instead of asking the poster to repeat themselves. If you are still confused, ask a specific question about what has you puzzled.

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Oh. I think I'm getting it guys. :)

It just takes me a bit. You're saying that Asking if anyone's found "X" and saying YOU looked and it may be gone, as long as it is still about "X" same topic, huh? Where as I can't find "Y" would go under a new one?

 

It was actually "I had a hard time keeping my feet on the ground" that I was told by someone. That's why unless it's a midget that told me that I'm not looking under anything.

You're not going to give me my hint as far as the beavers or termites I take it? :)

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Oh. I think I'm getting it guys. :)

It just takes me a bit. You're saying that Asking if anyone's found "X" and saying YOU looked and it may be gone, as long as it is still about "X" same topic, huh? Where as I can't find "Y" would go under a new one?

 

It was actually "I had a hard time keeping my feet on the ground" that I was told by someone. That's why unless it's a midget that told me that I'm not looking under anything.

You're not going to give me my hint as far as the beavers or termites I take it? :)

 

Never looked for that cache. And I don't like to give hints to other cache owner's caches.

 

Have you contacted the person who owns this cache?

 

Have you found nano before?

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Why would you even post a thread in the forums about not finding a cache? Email the CO...or email a recent finder for another hint. The forums are for GC members from all over the world, so posting in here will not get you much in the way of help.

 

As for just saying "it's not there"...don't ever post a log like that unless you can say so with 100% certainty. You can only be that certain if you personally have found it before or are with or talking directly to someone who has found it before. The minute you post "it's not there", some newbie with 5 finds will come in and post "easy find! tftc!"

Edited by J Grouchy

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I'll give you a hint:

 

File a DNF log. Then ask the CO for an additional hint.

 

Many Cache Owners will not supply additional hints without the requester logging a DNF. Think about it... why would they?

You email and say you cannot find it... they look at the logs, but fail to see that you filed anything.

 

We here in the forums have tried to help you beyond the norm. We are glad to help others... but there is a point where that help stops, and I think you may have very well reached it. If you did not catch it earlier (regarding both of the other threads) I told you that somebody that has found that cache had posted to help, yet it seems that you simply ignored my telling you that as well as that poster in the thread before.

 

Perhaps you have read all those posted responses... it just doesn't seem like it to me.

 

It may be that you do not comprehend some things... such as a warning not to start another thread on the same matter.... then do it again, anyway. I am beginning to believe that you ignore a lot of stuff.

Edited by Gitchee-Gummee

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Well then never mind. It's sad so many people are so skeptical & negative & accusing on-line.

Edited by Steve Dogan

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Well then never mind. It's sad so many people are so skeptical & negative & accusing on-line.

 

There seems to be a major miscommunication happening with this issue.

 

Folks have tried to help you in numerous threads.

 

You haven't responded to them. Your replies don't let us know that you have followed the helpful suggestions already given to you. Starting new threads about the same cache makes folks wonder what the point is in trying to help you, since you seem to be ignoring what they've already posted.

 

"Skeptical" and "negative" are your perceptions of what people having been trying to recommend you do. They aren't being skeptical or negative. If that's your perception of the advice given to you is, then there's not anything more that others can do.

 

Simple question: have you emailed the cache owner for a hint?

 

 

B.

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Well then never mind. It's sad so many people are so skeptical & negative & accusing on-line.

I haven't seen anyone be skeptical or negative or accusing.

 

I've seen people repeatedly make the same suggestions and ask the same questions while you ignore them. It sounds like you ignored a previous offer for help. People have been kind and trying to explain how online communities work and how to get the help you want.

 

Have you asked the CO for help?

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Well then never mind. It's sad so many people are so skeptical & negative & accusing on-line.

Sorry. Hope this helps, it is behind the drain pipe. It is stuck down in the strap holding the drain pipe so you have to look really hard.

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An international forum on geocaching is probably not the place to ask for hints or help with a difficult cache or to report problems with a specific cache.

 

The best people can do here is respond with general information about how to log your DNF or how to contact the cache owner. You might be able to get a little encourgement from others who can tell you how they have dealt with a difficult cache. Often, if you keep trying, you might find the cache. But on the other hand, posting a DNF and asking for the cache owner to check on the hide may reveal that in fact it wasn't there. Hopefully the owner can replace the container and you can try again.

Edited by tozainamboku

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Well then never mind. It's sad so many people are so skeptical & negative & accusing on-line.

Sorry. Hope this helps, it is behind the drain pipe. It is stuck down in the strap holding the drain pipe so you have to look really hard.

 

I'll bet 6,000,000 quatloos that hint still isn't specific enough. :rolleyes:

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Well, went back out by my favorite geo :) yesterday with someone with a lot more experience than me and she even agreed with me that the one by the park in Sherwood, Wis. is missing -at least the first piece is. Now.....what is the next step in having it fixed? There is also one by "1 = 7" or "7 = 1" (or something like that) hid in a local pet cemetery which we both agreed was gone. So who do I tell what to exactly?

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Post a Needs Maintenance log.

Explain you were with a cacher that has found the cache previously.

Explain what's wrong, eg Part 1 missing

 

Wait. If no action is taken, post Needs Archived.

 

There are those that say you need to post a DNF log as well...

(That's another discussion! :ph34r: )

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