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Pilgrims7

deliberately inaccurate coordinates?

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I've just recently come across a cacher who deliberately gives inaccurate coords for their caches so finders have to guess where GZ is, never mind where the cache is. I have been told that it is done on their harder caches, with better camp & more sneakilly hidden, to make it harder. I was told by them that it is within the guidelines. I believed them until I looked up the guidelines myself only to see the opposite.

 

Can anything be done about this? It seems that in our geocaching area, no one seems to mind because some are fairly new cachers and think it's ok to have coords that are deliberately off. What can be done to educate cache hiders without it being unpleasant, since these types think what they're doing to make their cache harder to find and more challenging is ok. My partner has now refused to find caches by this particular cacher due to the deliberately inaccurate coords. My kids now even ask if a cache we're going to find is one of theirs because they're tired of the inaccurate coords and it wastes so much time.

 

They have very cleverly constructed caches and put a lot of effort into their caches so I like finding them, but it's such a shame that they seem to think it's part of the game to get more DNFs by giving wrong coords. My partner says it's a pride thing, to have a rep for difficult caches so they're unlikely to respond well to correction.

 

I've seen it referred to here as "dirtbagging"?

Edited by pilgrim4096

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Well...the general feelings...not cool. As for policy...not cool either. Dirtbagging...hmmm...reminds me of sandbagging in bowling lol...

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The guidelines state that you must use a GPS to provide the most accurate coordinates possible (that is my paraphrase... but essentially that is correct). Using "soft" coordinates to make a cache harder to find is a rank amateur prank that should never be tolerated. If the cache owner won't correct the coordinates, let the reviewer know. Bad coordinates make his/her job more difficult (and less accurate) as well.

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In case you need more "ammo", here is another thread that discusses the same issue: http://forums.Ground...howtopic=271335

... and one more: http://forums.Ground...howtopic=285587

... and another: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=258489

 

Exact wording of my paraphrased guidelines above (thanks, GOF):

 

Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the geocache site and obtain all the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and finding geocaches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from locations defined by coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include Additional Waypoints, see the guidelines specific to those cache types.
Edited by knowschad

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game..... unfortunately, some don't play it as respectively as we expect them to play.

 

Bad coordinates are a way of caching life......either by the lack of experience, lack of good equipment, or on purpose. ??? Each cache finder has to adjust their searching skills based on their own experience or equipment.

 

So.....unless you know this person and can talk to them directly about their coordinates.... but at the same time, trying to give them 'constructive criticism' that they'll accept - is a matter in itself. Good Luck with that!!!

 

For everyone else.... when we come across a cache where the coordinates are 'obviously off' - we'll often say "Coordinates were 50 feet off for us today". It's a *SOFT* way of saying the cache is 50 feet off the listed coordinates. This way...you don't really offend anyone yet you're warning future caches of the error.

 

Afterall....bad coordinates aren't necessarily done on purpose but by human error and other factors. You don't want to point blame....Keep it respectable...enjoy the game.

Edited by Lieblweb

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game...

Name one other "game" that has no rules. We have rules, and accurate coordinates is one of them. Edited by knowschad

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http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307

1. Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from a specific location already defined by set of coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include additional waypoints see the guidelines specific to those cache types.

 

And a few reasons why bad coordinates are "bad" for geocaching's reputation:

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=304

 

4. Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property. Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

5. Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching. Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species.

 

As to deliberately bad coordinates, you can either post a Needs Archived note, post more accurate coordinates in your log, or send an email to the reviewer, with details about the problem.

 

 

B.

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The guidelines state that you must use a GPS to provide the most accurate coordinates possible (that is my paraphrase... but essentially that is correct). Using "soft" coordinates to make a cache harder to find is a rank amateur prank that should never be tolerated. If the cache owner won't correct the coordinates, let the reviewer know. Bad coordinates make his/her job more difficult (and less accurate) as well.

 

I can tell you for a fact that our local reviewer "forced" two different soft coordinate afficienados to go get accurate coordinates, when it was brought to his attention. In both cases, these afficienados admitted in the body of their cache descriptions, or via notes on the cache pages, their love of using soft coordinates.

 

It was kind of weird actually, a teenaged boy and teenaged girl, several towns apart, came up with the idea of soft coords around the same time, independently of each other. Not to say there aren't grown adults who think soft coordinates are just the Cats Pajamas. Fortunately, there's not many of them.

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game..... unfortunately, some don't play it as respectively as we expect them to play.

 

Bad coordinates are a way of caching life......either by the lack of experience, lack of good equipment, or on purpose. ??? Each cache finder has to adjust their searching skills based on their own experience or equipment.

 

So.....unless you know this person and can talk to them directly about their coordinates.... but at the same time, trying to give them 'constructive criticism' that they'll accept - is a matter in itself. Good Luck with that!!!

 

For everyone else.... when we come across a cache where the coordinates are 'obviously off' - we'll often say "Coordinates were 50 feet off for us today". It's a *SOFT* way of saying the cache is 50 feet off the listed coordinates. This way...you don't really offend anyone yet you're warning future caches of the error.

 

Afterall....bad coordinates aren't necessarily done on purpose but by human error and other factors. You don't want to point blame....Keep it respectable...enjoy the game.

I think the point of the OP was that Bad Coords in this case are done on purpose and the Cache Owner has admitted that it is how he/she increases the difficulty. That is something that should not be tolerated. Several have pointed out that Accurate Coords are expected. Equipment is one thing...but doing it on purpose is another.

 

Share your coords in your log...send an email to the reviewer...either way...the Cache Owner will start to get the point.

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game..... unfortunately, some don't play it as respectively as we expect

For everyone else.... when we come across a cache where the coordinates are 'obviously off' - we'll often say "Coordinates were 50 feet off for us today". It's a *SOFT* way of saying the cache is 50 feet off the listed coordinates. This way...you don't really offend anyone yet you're warning future caches of the error.

 

Afterall....bad coordinates aren't necessarily done on purpose but by human error and other factors. You don't want to point blame....Keep it respectable...enjoy the game.

Yes, I've been guilty of bad coords and have gone back to change them. Am in the process of getting a dedicated GPS. I thought that's just by mistake like me, but it turns out that it is deliberate for their harder caches they said. They suggested I look for easier caches of their's. I like clever caches, and their caches are well constructed, just not the coords that are off. I think the best thing for our family would be to avoid their caches from now on.

No worries, I think we'll just leave it. Thanks.

Edited by pilgrim4096

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Absolutely, send an email to the local reviewer. Then they can give this owner a swift kick in the pants to smarten up and fix their coordinates. Intentional soft coordinates aren't good for anyone.

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Yes, I've been guilty of bad coords and have gone back to change them. Am in the process of getting a dedicated GPS. I thought that's just by mistake like me, but it turns out that it is deliberate for their harder caches they said.

No worriers, I think we'll just leave it. Thanks.

 

And this is how the bad coordinates stay in the game...no one reports them to the reviewer.

 

:(

 

 

B.

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

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I kind of know these people from a distance in real life so am not going to report them. Although I have emailed them the rules as below.

 

"Step 3 - Placing Your Cache Once you arrive at the location of your hide, it is critical to obtain accurate GPS coordinates. This is the very heart of the activity, after all. Be aware that during bad weather, the accuracy of the GPS unit may be poor.

 

Some GPS units have the ability to take an average set of coordinates. If your device cannot, it is best to mark a waypoint, walk away from the location, then return and mark another waypoint. Continue marking waypoints at the location, around 7 - 10 times, and then select the best waypoint. Learn How to Average a Waypoint."

 

And

 

"1. Listing Guidelines for All Geocaches 1. Technical Requirements Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates."

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game..... unfortunately, some don't play it as respectively as we expect

For everyone else.... when we come across a cache where the coordinates are 'obviously off' - we'll often say "Coordinates were 50 feet off for us today". It's a *SOFT* way of saying the cache is 50 feet off the listed coordinates. This way...you don't really offend anyone yet you're warning future caches of the error.

 

Afterall....bad coordinates aren't necessarily done on purpose but by human error and other factors. You don't want to point blame....Keep it respectable...enjoy the game.

Yes, I've been guilty of bad coords and have gone back to change them. Am in the process of getting a dedicated GPS. I thought that's just by mistake like me, but it turns out that it is deliberate for their harder caches they said. They suggested I look for easier caches of their's. I like clever caches, and their caches are well constructed, just not the coords that are off. I think the best thing for our family would be to avoid their caches from now on.

 

So you've already discussed this with them? If you now privately contact the reviewer to "go after them", they're going to strongly suspect it was you. That would be really ugly in my opinion. I vote for Avoid their caches.

 

And you say a lot of people in your area are new, and don't think there's anything wrong with it. Just hope the idea doesn't spread when they start placing their own. :P

 

EDIT: Sorry, we were posting at about the same time, kind of makes my post moot.

Edited by Mr.Yuck

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

 

No, because you know some wahoo from Terre Haute, Indiana or something, will post a note on the cache page chastising the cache owner. Not necessarily a regular poster, but probably a lurker. I'd put money on it. :o

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

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I think this may have come from the smartphones and the Geocaching apps with newer people. A local guy here didn't do it on purpose, but he was using his phone to get coords for his hides when he first started out. They were all 50+ft off. He found out at an event that he should'nt use a phone to do hides. He later got a dedicated GPS and fixed all of his hides.

Edited by gustav129

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game...

Name one other "game" that has no rules. We have rules, and accurate coordinates is one of them.

 

Sure, we have rules and people don't always play by the rules.

 

If this type of thing is bothersome to people - then send some communication to the reviewers. The reviewers have to use their own judgement, research input, yadda yadda yadda..... And separate the *he said/she said* from the actual.

 

It's easy for us (as cachers) to send an email to the reviewers ....but its the reviewers who get slammed with all the complaints and have to do the research. They're volunteers.... and I'm sure they're very busy!!

 

The guilty party/person will eventually get a bad reputation.... people will give them bad feedback via log notes.... they'll be known for being morons.... Every game has their morons. It'll take some time, but their caches will eventually get disabled or archived.....

 

Do you really have time to 'police' what everyone else is doing? VERSUS Getting out and having fun finding more caches?

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I think this may have come from the smartphones and the Geocaching apps with newer people. A local guy here didn't do it on purpose, but he was using his phone to get coords for his hides when he first started out. They were all 50+ft off. He found out at an event that he should'nt use a phone to do hides. He later got a dedicated GPS and fixed all of his hides.

No, this guy is doing it deliberately on his harder caches and told me this in an email when I said we weren't sure about the coordinates' accuracy of the cache. He's a relative of a friend of ours so we don't want any trouble. Thanks.

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Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

With that description, it doesn't sound at all like intentionally soft coordinates. That just sounds like a hard-to-find cache on which they've chosen not to provide a "gimme" hint. Nothing wrong with that.

 

Edit: Whoops, cross-posted with you. I see they've admitted it in messages to you. If they are deliberately doing it, they need to be stopped. You said there are a lot of new cachers in your area, and they need to see that soft coordinates are not allowed. We don't want them copying the same bad behaviour.

Edited by The A-Team

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game...

Name one other "game" that has no rules. We have rules, and accurate coordinates is one of them.

 

Sure, we have rules and people don't always play by the rules.

 

If this type of thing is bothersome to people - then send some communication to the reviewers. The reviewers have to use their own judgement, research input, yadda yadda yadda..... And separate the *he said/she said* from the actual.

 

Isn't that (contact the reviewer) what most of us have been saying?

 

Sorry, but "everyone plays the game their own way" just is not an acceptable philosophy for me. Try playing baseball with that philosophy sometime. Should be a riot. Literally.

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Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

With that description, it doesn't sound at all like intentionally soft coordinates. That just sounds like a hard-to-find cache on which they've chosen not to provide a "gimme" hint. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes. Vague hint is fine, or even none at all. I'm talking about deliberately wrong coordinates, which the CO said he does to increase the difficulty. I didn't realise it was deliberate until tonight when he told me. My partner had said it was probably deliberate as he has been caching longer than me, but I thought it was just error.

We'll continue to have fun. Anyway, we'll just avoid his caches as the rest of the family refuse to do any more of his hides. Thanks!

 

#Apologies too as I know the reviewer should be informed but since we know these people in real life, we can't risk any trouble over a game.

Edited by pilgrim4096

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

Sounds like an excellent use of the ignore list. I would put *all* of the owners caches on my ignore list and move on. If they don't want me finding their caches I'm quite happy to oblige them.

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So you've already discussed this with them? If you now privately contact the reviewer to "go after them", they're going to strongly suspect it was you. That would be really ugly in my opinion. I vote for Avoid their caches.

 

And you say a lot of people in your area are new, and don't think there's anything wrong with it. Just hope the idea doesn't spread when they start placing their own. :P

 

EDIT: Sorry, we were posting at about the same time, kind of makes my post moot.

Exactly!

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Sound like inconsiderate cachers, doing these hides.

 

Bear in mind sometimes you get people like me, who are on their way through an area and looking to pick up a few finds, drop some trackables, etc. After a couple of "these" sort of hides we'll skip the rest in the area and move on, possibly adding something to our DNF logs along the lines of "The Cache Owner needs to learn how to properly read coordinates. This cache was a waste of time and I decided to skip any more finds in this area as they appear to be geared to aggrevating cachers and wasting time."

 

A stinging rebuke from a few cachers may be what it takes for them to see the light.

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Everyone has their own way of playing the game...

Name one other "game" that has no rules. We have rules, and accurate coordinates is one of them.

 

I have heard the "ultra-liberal" excuse of "everyone plays their own way" and frankly I think that is the lamest, sorriest load of crap anyone ever tried to sell. (just my opinion)

Even when we have family gatherings and play horseshoes, monopoly, or whatever, we frequently play by "house rules" NOT the official sanctioned regulation rules.

 

The biggest difference is... everyone playing agrees to these rules beforehand.

 

That is NOT what is happening here.

 

As for "soft" coords, I feel sorry for the Owners who do this. Either they lack creativity, have a self confidence problem, or just find it entertaining (in a sick twisted sense) watching the DNF's pile up.

 

For all who would argue otherwise... why would you place a cache you did not want to be found?? You want to hide a nano in the forest with a high difficulty rating, I can see that. You place the same cache with coordinates that are intentionaly off, you have issues.

 

 

opinions rendered in this post are solely the views of the poster, and may or may not be endorsed by Groundspeak.

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The idea in general is so not cool. How does the CO think that soft coords make his hides look more clever? He needs to figure out a way to make tough hides with good coords so that DNFs are earned. No respect to anyone who tries to trick people like that. :mad:

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

Sounds like an excellent use of the ignore list. I would put *all* of the owners caches on my ignore list and move on. If they don't want me finding their caches I'm quite happy to oblige them.

 

Problem with that is that others are going to see those caches, see nothing was done about them and assume soft coords are a dandy way to add some challenge to the hunt. The problem will only get worse.

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If I find a cache and the coordintaes are off I usually post "found cache 30 feet from PC". That's a statement that when I arrived at the container, the GPS told me it was 30 feet away. Maybe the coordinates were intentionally soft. Maybe the hider arrived on a poor signal day. Maybe I arrived on a poor signal day. I just report my experience, take my smiley and move on. If a cache receives several messages to the same effect, I can choose to post a needs maintenance based on the experience of several finders on several days. The community polices the issue, not the reviewer, not a particular individual. And oh, by the way, the vast majority of caches I have found were less than 15 feet from PC. I make it a habit to check the "distance to" number after I finish doing the usual business. Lots of times I find it 30 feet from GZ, and after I have let it settle a few minutes it spins down much coser.

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I have one "soft" cache. It wasn't on purpose and after another cacher found it and posted their quads I went out to try to correct mine...

 

... unfortunately 4 GPSRs all gave me the same reading (which is off by about 10-15'). I've posted in the hint that the quads are off and my plight with trying to fix them, I've also given a fairly "gimmie" hint and (because the cache is close to my home) if I see fellow cachers poking around in the wrong area I go and help them out.

 

If someone reported this cache to a reviewer because my quads are "soft" I would not be happy about it. :ph34r:

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http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=307

1. Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates. You must visit the cache location and obtain the coordinates with a GPS device. GPS usage is an integral and essential element of both hiding and seeking caches and must be demonstrated for all cache submissions. Projecting waypoints from a specific location already defined by set of coordinates is permissible. For geocaches that include additional waypoints see the guidelines specific to those cache types.

 

And a few reasons why bad coordinates are "bad" for geocaching's reputation:

 

http://support.Groundspeak.com/index.php?pg=kb.page&id=304

 

4. Geocache placements do not damage, deface or destroy public or private property. Caches are placed so that the surrounding environment, whether natural or human-made, is safe from intentional or unintentional harm. Property must not be damaged or altered to provide a hiding place, clue, or means of logging a find.

 

5. Wildlife and the natural environment are not harmed in the pursuit of geocaching. Geocaches are placed so that plant and animal life are safe from both intentional and unintentional harm. In some regions geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species.

 

As to deliberately bad coordinates, you can either post a Needs Archived note, post more accurate coordinates in your log, or send an email to the reviewer, with details about the problem.

 

 

B.

Also of the cache they placed is too close to another cache, some CO fudge the coords to get them approved.

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If they allow new coords to be posted in find logs, then I don't see it as a big deal. However, if they get upset over that, then perhaps they deserve a whuppin.

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If they allow new coords to be posted in find logs, then I don't see it as a big deal. However, if they get upset over that, then perhaps they deserve a whuppin.

 

Yes, but future cache seekers shouldn't have to hunt through the previous logs in order to find better coords.

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Can you post the GC code of one of these caches? I'd like to see exactly what they wrote about the coordinates.

Initially, they don't write anything except a vague clue. Then as people log DNFs, they change the description with comments like where not to look, or where it's close to, etc. It is very time consuming to do their caches as a result.

Sounds like an excellent use of the ignore list. I would put *all* of the owners caches on my ignore list and move on. If they don't want me finding their caches I'm quite happy to oblige them.

 

Problem with that is that others are going to see those caches, see nothing was done about them and assume soft coords are a dandy way to add some challenge to the hunt. The problem will only get worse.

I totally agree. Ignore is great if YOU don't want to do a cache but if a cache is going against the guidelines and cachers ignore it, others will think there is no problem with it and that tends to spread.

Like someone buries one and you ignore it and walk away and then other cachers say "Hey cool creative hide, I might put some in my area" Then you got cachers pointing saying they are doing it and no one is complaining.

ignoring isn't always Bliss

Many of you talk about the guidelines but what do you do when you go out and see a violation? Ignore it or report it?

Edited by jellis

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I have one "soft" cache. It wasn't on purpose and after another cacher found it and posted their quads I went out to try to correct mine...

 

... unfortunately 4 GPSRs all gave me the same reading (which is off by about 10-15'). I've posted in the hint that the quads are off and my plight with trying to fix them, I've also given a fairly "gimmie" hint and (because the cache is close to my home) if I see fellow cachers poking around in the wrong area I go and help them out.

 

If someone reported this cache to a reviewer because my quads are "soft" I would not be happy about it. :ph34r:

 

If four GPSr's gave you the same result, how do you know the guy who reported the bad coords wasn't actually off by 10-15'?

That was a rhetorical question. In reality 0-15' is within the margin of error. You are fine. If someone reports you for that, they don't undestand GPSr's very well.

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I've just recently come across a cacher who deliberately gives inaccurate coords for their caches so finders have to guess where GZ is, never mind where the cache is. I have been told that it is done on their harder caches, with better camp & more sneakilly hidden, to make it harder. I was told by them that it is within the guidelines. I believed them until I looked up the guidelines myself only to see the opposite.

 

How much intentional error are we talking about here? If the actual coords are 50' or 60' from the given coords on the cache page, that is a problem and should be reported to the reviewer. I believe you can do this anonymously.

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I have one "soft" cache. It wasn't on purpose and after another cacher found it and posted their quads I went out to try to correct mine...

 

... unfortunately 4 GPSRs all gave me the same reading (which is off by about 10-15'). I've posted in the hint that the quads are off and my plight with trying to fix them, I've also given a fairly "gimmie" hint and (because the cache is close to my home) if I see fellow cachers poking around in the wrong area I go and help them out.

 

If someone reported this cache to a reviewer because my quads are "soft" I would not be happy about it. :ph34r:

 

This has no bearing to this situation, as the OP has said here a couple of times:

 

No, this guy is doing it deliberately on his harder caches and told me this in an email when I said we weren't sure about the coordinates' accuracy of the cache. He's a relative of a friend of ours so we don't want any trouble. Thanks.

 

Also of the cache they placed is too close to another cache, some CO fudge the coords to get them approved.

 

This is a really good point.

 

There's no way for the reviewer to know that the cache owner has lied about the coordinates on the cache submission form. Because that's what deliberate "soft" coordinates are...a lie. A pretty pathetic way to get around the saturation guidelines, and a pathetic example to new cachers.

 

 

B.

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[snip]

 

There's no way for the reviewer to know that the cache owner has lied about the coordinates on the cache submission form. Because that's what deliberate "soft" coordinates are...a lie. A pretty pathetic way to get around the saturation guidelines, and a pathetic example to new cachers.

 

B.

Most experienced cachers are going to make a lot of comments about the coords being off and suggesting means to improve them, such as get a better GPSr and posting the coords they find it at.

 

Caching is a learning experience, sometimes people with a peculiar bent need some encouragement to straighten up and fly right.

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Isn't that (contact the reviewer) what most of us have been saying?

 

Sorry, but "everyone plays the game their own way" just is not an acceptable philosophy for me. Try playing baseball with that philosophy sometime. Should be a riot. Literally.

 

You are referring competition sports between teams or players where the outcome is a WINNER or a LOSER.

The goal or outcome of the game is WINNING. Keeping score and rules that apply to keep the game play FAIR between teams/players.

 

We are not keeping score. We are not competing against each other (although, some people might believe so). There are NO winners and no losers in this game.

 

How do you judge 'the rules' on caches that aren't rated properly? How do you judge 'the rules' when people claim finds but don't sign the log books? How do you judge 'the rules' when people don't maintain their caches? How do you judge 'the rules' when people don't log their TB's properly?

 

Geocaching is kinda like driving your car everyday. No winners or losers - just people who don't use their turn signals, don't know what a blind spot is, don't merge properly, stop on the acceleration lane, pre-occupied with their cell phones...bla bla bla

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Wonder if this might be one of them,

seems like a few alternate coordinates are given

One of the latest ones has had the coords changed due to originally pointing to the middle of grass, after I asked CO about the coords being correct. It now points to a spot on the playground area which is not gz. It's a micro in the play equipment with lots of nuts and bolts.

 

Another cache that is a micro pointed to the middle of a causeway. Then as DNFs pile up, they give clues to cachers where not to look but leave the incorrect coords. It seems the idea with their caches is the difficult ones require cachers to guess where gz is after several attempts and visits. In short, one has to guess the gz on their harder hides even with micros. In our area, some people seem to think high DNFs is a good reputation.

 

Both the above 2 are now permanent DNFs for us as my partner refuses to go back. In fact he said we will avoid their caches altogether as incorrect coords defeats the whole purpose of the game. I wasn't so definite until I read the rules and sent the relevant sections to CO last night.

Edited by pilgrim4096

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One of the latest ones has had the coords changed due to originally pointing to the middle of grass, after I asked CO about the coords being correct. It now points to a spot on the playground area which is not gz. It's a micro in the play equipment with lots of nuts and bolts.

 

Another cache that is a micro pointed to the middle of a causeway. Then as DNFs pile up, they give clues to cachers where not to look but leave the incorrect coords. It seems the idea with their caches is the difficult ones require cachers to guess where gz is after several attempts and visits. In short, one has to guess the gz on their harder hides even with micros. In our area, some people seem to think high DNFs is a good reputation.

 

Both the above 2 are now permanent DNFs for us as my partner refuses to go back. In fact he said we will avoid their caches altogether as incorrect coords defeats the whole purpose of the game. I wasn't so definite until I read the rules and sent the relevant sections to CO last night.

 

This is a cheap way to make a cache more challenging, and not the intended way it is supposed to be done.

 

As for the "permanent DNFs" - meh, who cares? Other than it's not fun to search for a cache that isn't where the CO said it was, nobody else can see those anyway. DNF doesn't imply "the CO won and you lost," or at least it's not supposed to. It just means "you didn't find it."

 

I'd email the reviewer and express your concerns about the specific caches in question, and explain that you want to be anonymous because you know the CO personally. However, I probably wouldn't worry about it coming back on you over much - they'll probably notice you don't find their caches anymore.

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Accurate co-ordinates are a part of the game, and required by the guidelines.

 

It sounds as if your friends really want to make puzzle caches, but aren't smart enough to make one. :lol:

 

Since you have 'tipped your hand', and they know that you know it is being done deliberately, there isn't much you can do (while avoiding a conflict) other than ignoring their caches. Perhaps some day they will ask you why you haven't been finding theirs, and you can quietly state that you don't enjoy caches with 'bad' co-ordinates. Since your kids don't like them, say you took a family vote.

 

If it was me...I'd create a sock-puppet account, find their caches, and log that I thought the cache must have been accidentally moved, so I put it back at/closer to the listed co-ordinates. :ph34r:

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They have very cleverly constructed caches and put a lot of effort into their caches so I like finding them, but it's such a shame that they seem to think it's part of the game to get more DNFs by giving wrong coords. My partner says it's a pride thing, to have a rep for difficult caches so they're unlikely to respond well to correction.

 

I've seen it referred to here as "dirtbagging"?

 

I will just post after I log my find that the cords are off and I'll use my GPS and list proper cords for the next cacher. From what I know, you are supposed to list as close as possible.. Its your ability to hide that makes the chalange. I often use my gps and check the cords a couple of times to make sure they are accurate. But I'm sort of a newbe myself.

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Isn't that (contact the reviewer) what most of us have been saying?

 

Sorry, but "everyone plays the game their own way" just is not an acceptable philosophy for me. Try playing baseball with that philosophy sometime. Should be a riot. Literally.

 

You are referring competition sports between teams or players where the outcome is a WINNER or a LOSER.

The goal or outcome of the game is WINNING. Keeping score and rules that apply to keep the game play FAIR between teams/players.

 

We are not keeping score. We are not competing against each other (although, some people might believe so). There are NO winners and no losers in this game.

 

Try telling that to those that play the FTF game.

 

Theoretically there are no winners or losers in the game of Geocaching but the reality is that there are many that do see it as a competition, and many *do* keep score (for example, using a GSAK macro to display various statistics) even if they're just competing with themselves. Despite the frequent claims of "it's not about the numbers", you'll find quite a few examples in these forums where others are "judged" by how many finds they have.

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Geocaching is kinda like driving your car everyday. No winners or losers - just people who don't use their turn signals, don't know what a blind spot is, don't merge properly, stop on the acceleration lane, pre-occupied with their cell phones...bla bla bla

I agree with your analogy, but not the part about "no losers". If someone doesn't use their turn signal, doesn't check their blind spot, etc., it can easily lead to a dangerous situation, or even a crash. Bringing the analogy back to geocaching, if someone doesn't follow the guidelines, a seeker could get into trouble via trespassing, doing something illegal, unknowingly going somewhere dangerous, etc. There may not be winners, but there can very much be losers. The guidelines are there for a reason.

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I have one "soft" cache. It wasn't on purpose and after another cacher found it and posted their quads I went out to try to correct mine...

 

... unfortunately 4 GPSRs all gave me the same reading (which is off by about 10-15'). I've posted in the hint that the quads are off and my plight with trying to fix them, I've also given a fairly "gimmie" hint and (because the cache is close to my home) if I see fellow cachers poking around in the wrong area I go and help them out.

 

If someone reported this cache to a reviewer because my quads are "soft" I would not be happy about it. :ph34r:

You raise a good point... what is 'soft' when it comes to coordinates in the 21st century? I would say that 10'-15' is about as good as it gets. But how far off is tolerable? Obviously, that is dependent on the size and type of the hide and the surroundings where it is hidden. An ammo can hidden in the prairie with one hollow tree for miles could probably be 50' off and pose no real problem.

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