Electrical Box Hides

January 25, 2012

OK so I found two particular Caches that I have concerns about. Both owned by the same CO. They are both disguised as electrical components. I know this has been discussed before, however, I would like to show you my concerns- photos posted here, and get your opinion on these caches. Should they be left alone, reported, removed or what?

I know the CO went to some effort to place these i.e. obtaining this type of cache equipment- but I am concerned that there is inherent danger in getting people to touch/mess with electrical boxes/covers. These came apart magnetically, but what if a cacher (I am thinking of maybe someone younger here) decided to take a real box apart to look for a cache in it because they had seen these types of hides before. Could be a bad scene.

I am just looking for thoughts and suggestions here. (Hoping these photos work)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/arctic971/Geo/photo-1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/arctic971/Geo/photo.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/arctic971/Geo/photo-2.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b265/arctic971/Geo/photo-3.jpg

Edited January 25, 2012 by AneMae

January 25, 2012

OK so I couldn't get the photos embedded in the thread here (never done that before), sorry about that folks. But the links do work

Thanks.

2.6k · January 25, 2012

this will become a flame war

------

they are both cleary not eletric. They are fine.

January 25, 2012

I have no problem with hides like this.

4.8k · January 25, 2012

...reported, removed, or what?

You're going to get lots of varying opinions on this subject, but in the end you'll have to do what you feel is right.

Good luck!

7.3k · January 25, 2012

I know this has been discussed before,

Indeed...

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=288313

You gotta start filtering out the cache types you don't like.

Even I wouldn't have a problem with the ones in the photos.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Pup Patrol

7.5k · January 25, 2012

OK so I found two particular Caches that I have concerns about. Both owned by the same CO. They are both disguised as electrical components. I know this has been discussed before, however, I would like to show you my concerns- photos posted here, and get your opinion on these caches. Should they be left alone, reported, removed or what?

I know the CO went to some effort to place these i.e. obtaining this type of cache equipment- but I am concerned that there is inherent danger in getting people to touch/mess with electrical boxes/covers. These came apart magnetically, but what if a cahcer (I am thinking of maybe someone younger here) decided to take a real box apart to look for a cache in it because they had seen these types of hides before. Could be a bad scene.

I am just looking for thoughts and suggestions here. (Hoping these photos work)

http://i21.photobuck...Geo/photo-1.jpg

http://i21.photobuck...1/Geo/photo.jpg

http://i21.photobuck...Geo/photo-2.jpg

http://i21.photobuck...Geo/photo-3.jpg

I understand why people hide them - they're the easiest way to hide something in plain sight. I don't like them but lots of people do. I for one don't like the "danger" aspect especially when you can't tell if it's a live box or not. The box in your photo doesn't have wires going to it so it's not so bad. The switch plate encourages yanking on electric equipment until something comes off. Plus switch plates are sooooo booooooring after you've found a couple. And the tiny logsheet is almost always soaked.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Solitario R

7.3k · January 25, 2012

OK so I couldn't get the photos embedded in the thread here (never done that before), sorry about that folks. But the links do work

Thanks.

You need to click on the "insert image" box. It's the third one after the smiley face. Paste the url of the image into the box that pops up.

7.5k · January 25, 2012

Hmmmm. I wonder if they got permission to attach that box to the wall? :huh:

7.3k · January 25, 2012

Hmmmm. I wonder if they got permission to attach that box to the wall?

Who knows? Without any useful information, we're just guessing.

It could belong to the cache hider's house.

10.2k · January 25, 2012

Hmmmm. I wonder if they got permission to attach that box to the wall?

Who knows? Without any useful information, we're just guessing.

It could belong to the cache hider's house.

True. But in almost any location, even if that's a restroom building in a public park, I would say it requires permission.

The other one? I'd say I have no problem whatsoever, and of course those things are sold on Ebay, or at the websites of several Groundspeak authorized retailers. I'm quite sure one of them had them at Geowoodstock last year.

January 25, 2012

Not looking for a "Flame War" here as somebody else has mentioned. Just want thoughts and opinions from some more experienced cachers.

From what I read on the cache page there was permission to place the one on the building. The lamp post I am not sure.

I am not too concerned about the permission aspect though, more so for the danger aspect when it comes to the "electrical" nature of the hide and what it could lead to. Encouraging people to take apart electrical apparatus is somewhat troubling to me, (my personal opinion)

I just wanted to see what others thought of what I found here today. Clearly there will be a wide range of opinions- I am interested in hearing them all.

Any electricians or electrical safety authority persons out there? Would especially like to hear what they have to say about these.

1.4k · January 25, 2012

Both caches look just fine to me.

January 25, 2012

Did either of the caches require a screw driver to open? It looks to me, from the picture only, that the second one (the lamp) was magnetic. I couldn't tell if the first used real screws and required a screw driver.

Truth be told, even if it did require a screw driver, simply un-screwing a 'cache' and seeing a ton of live wires isn't dangerous. You have to then reach in and touch the live wires for there to be a problem. Now, I am of the belief that having to use a real screw driver to open an electrical box to see if it's the cache or not is not a good idea. I guess that's where I draw the line. I would never use a screw drive to open an electrical box to see if my guess about a cache location is correct.

So, were they magnetic or some other means or was a reas screw driver required?

If they did not require a screw driver then I'm okay with them.

If they did require a screw driver then I'd frown upon them but I still wouldn't be too concerned with people getting electrocuted for my above stated reasons.

Also, the 'teaching kids bad habits' argument doesn't work for me. I have two kids I cache with (9 and 7) and I look to myself for their safety, not a CO. When they are old enough to cache by themselves is when I decide they don't need me to tell them not to open electrical boxes...and if for some reason they do and see wires not to touch them. (More of that first part (don't open)).

3.1k · January 25, 2012

Any electricians or electrical safety authority persons out there? Would especially like to hear what they have to say about these.

Here's a blog by a geocacher who's also an electrical safety professional.

January 25, 2012

Thanks for the blog link CanadianRockies, this address' all the things I am concerned about. I would suggest everyone reading this thread click on it and give it a quick read over. Lots of food for thought there.

January 25, 2012

I'm thinking of taking an old factory electrical box full of the big stuff and mounting it to a fence in the middle of nowhere and making sure it is plain as day that it isn't hooked to anything just to see who will complain. Just about every urban cache I've seen is against the rules in some way, shape or form. If you don't like them, don't go to them.

January 25, 2012

Thanks for the blog link CanadianRockies, this address' all the things I am concerned about. I would suggest everyone reading this thread click on it and give it a quick read over. Lots of food for thought there.

That blog absolutley got me off of the fence and on the side of "no electrical decoy caches" For the obvious reasons of being in or around it is an element of danger you really dont need to add to make the game fun. And the other element of a child who sees this cannot make the distinction that every time he or she sees a piece of electrical equipment "oh it must be a cache" Thirdly, they just aren't all that original anymore. There are so many other cache types you can hid that can be decoys that pose no risk. Most of the types you can use your imagination. As a finder, isn't it more fun (frustraing) to have to sift through a few pine cones to find a nano stuffed in one rather than dinking around electrical equipment that is not only unsafe but looks very suspicious - and on that note - there is a long story about a cacher who hid a ammo can on a trail that was property of an electrical utility company - which turned into feds and other three letter agencies raiding someones house and the CO getting into some trouble. So I doubt they would want anyone putting a decoy on their electrical equipment outdoors.

January 25, 2012

We were looking for a cache once. And there was a box like that up against the wall. And I was just about to give up, and I noticed it. As I was reaching down it started sparking. Im so glad I didnt go for it.

I went inside the building and informed somebody of the situation and decided to stop searching for the cache. I wont reach near those boxes since that day.

January 25, 2012

I have yet to read the linked blog (but it's on my list). That withstanding, I found an electrical box cache once that I thought was done well. It actually had a label clearly stating that it was a geocache on the outside. If I remember correctly, it was near some other boxes that were actually locked.

Usually if I poke something and it doesn't seem like it wants to come apart, I'll move on to something else. I don't like going in and dismantling stuff that looks official.

January 25, 2012

I have yet to read the linked blog (but it's on my list). That withstanding, I found an electrical box cache once that I thought was done well. It actually had a label clearly stating that it was a geocache on the outside. If I remember correctly, it was near some other boxes that were actually locked.

Usually if I poke something and it doesn't seem like it wants to come apart, I'll move on to something else. I don't like going in and dismantling stuff that looks official.

I find I have difficulty being worried about these caches. If I can identify the fake box, I look, if I am unsure even slightly, I stop.

That said, the main problem with these types of hides usually isn't the hide themselves, but its that you can have other micros in the vicinity of electrical equipment, but not actually hidden in a fake electrical box. Someone might mistakenly tamper with real, possibly damaged electrical equipment, thinking "oh, that must be fake, it isn't locked..."

I would still think that the risk of dying in traffic on the way to the cache or being hit by a car on the side of the road while searching for some caches is higher than the risk of electrocution because of these hides.

3.9k · January 25, 2012

I would think it's OK if they are magnetic. If you have to use a screwdriver to access the logbook (that looks real), then the cacher will start unscrewing real electric boxes to look for the cache. This is like sprinkler caches, there needs to be a (nearly obvious) way to look and tell that it isn't real.

January 25, 2012

I would think it's OK if they are magnetic. If you have to use a screwdriver to access the logbook (that looks real), then the cacher will start unscrewing real electric boxes to look for the cache. This is like sprinkler caches, there needs to be a (nearly obvious) way to look and tell that it isn't real.

The problem with both of these ideas is that once you get it in your head to check these places, you are tempted to look for this type of location when the actual cache, hidden differently, doesn't turn up. I think disassembling a sprinkler could end up being mildly destructive in some circumstances.

January 25, 2012

The horse was confirmed dead on the scene. Everyone can stop beating it now! :signalviolin:

January 25, 2012

I don't have much problem with that type of cache.

My general rule of the thumb is that I stay away from live electrical equipment and wires, and if there's any doubt I assume its live and real.

That means a cache hidden on live electric equipment, real electric equipment whether live or not, or a cache that looks too real, all will likely get passed by me.

But a cache that is identified as such in some way, one that can't possibly be real, or is obviously not live, those can be fun.

10.1k · January 25, 2012

I just wanted to see what others thought of what I found here today. Clearly there will be a wide range of opinions- I am interested in hearing them all.

Nope. Not a wide range of opinions. Most will say that they're commonplace, and not a problem. Definitely no problem with the faceplate. If it moves, it's a cache. If it doesn't move, then it isnt.

The box is trickier. If it's stuck in the ground then that's a guidelines violation. If it's attached to the building there's a violation. If that rock is a fake rock cache, then there's a violation.

But nothing to get in a big huff about.

6.1k · January 25, 2012

The hazards depend entirely on the specific location, and if you need tools to access IMO.

6k · January 25, 2012

I believe the danger of electrical caches is scheduled for the third thursday to avoid it coming up incessantly at other times. You might want to review the many prior discussions but basically the answer is if you don't like them don't look for them but let others make their own decision.

6k · January 25, 2012

I believe the danger of electrical caches is scheduled for the third thursday to avoid it coming up incessantly at other times. You might want to review the many prior discussions but basically the answer is if you don't like them don't look for them but let others make their own decision.

2.7k · January 26, 2012

The hazards depend entirely on the specific location, and if you need tools to access IMO.

You are assuming that every box with electricity flowing in it is properly secured. Assumptions like that is what gets people killed.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Glenn

2.7k · January 26, 2012

As long as the cache is rated properly then there shouldn't be any issue. IMHO, any cache that is made to look indistinguishable from a working electrical box or panel or cover should carry a Terrain rating of 5 because it requires specialized equipment or knowledge to tell the difference.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Glenn

January 26, 2012

I think for me the verdict is in on this one. If this is what the experts, see below, (and a Geocacher in this case) have to say, I will gladly heed their advice.

I think the community needs to be pro-active on this.

One by not placing these types of caches, and

Two by appropriately dealing with them when found.

It is not enough to just say "If you don't like them then don't do them"- there is a safety factor that needs to be considered here for everyones benefit.

Then there is the whole placing them on private property issue- which the guidelines clearly address.

I am certainly not in a "huff" about this, but I will deal with an issue I think is important- and safety is always important.

From Johnny-Geo's blog:

Adding the element of electrical equipment to our game increases the risk of injury or death that should not be part of our hobby, or any other hobby.

Now to the "meat and potatoes" of this Blog:

Have you ever geocached in, on or around green power boxes(padmount transformers), lamp post caches (LPC's), electrical transmission tower legs and sometimes even FAKE electrical boxes/equipment? Again, all added risk that shouldn't be part of our hobby.

Fake electrical boxes: "What's the danger there?"

Children tend to stick their hands in anywhere and if a child can open a cover to something they’ll do it cause they’re curious. They learn what's safe and what's not safe by watching adults. If we teach kids that it’s okay to open up fake electrical boxes because caches are hidden in them, then I feel that we are placing children in danger.

If that child comes across real electrical equipment that was left open because it was vandalized, would they know to stay away from it? I would say no. Would you stay away from it? Do you know the difference between real and fake electrical equipment? I've seen some very realistic stuff out there.

It’s not okay for children(and adults for that matter) to get-use-to playing around electrical equipment.

Now let's talk about geocaching on a piece of electrical equipment (i.e. a transmission tower leg) What's the chance of that piece of electrical equipment failing? (Probability) Low? Okay, I could agree with that.

Let's say it failed. What is the consequence when a person touches a failed piece of electrical equipment and that person gives electricity another path to ground?(severity) I know from personal experience that there's usually no second chance of life. I choose to stay away from the equipment, I do not accept that risk into my life. Plain and simple.

There's no need to jeopardize yourself or others to the added risk of electricity.

January 26, 2012

I have sent the CO of the caches I am concerned about a message expressing my reservations, and a link to the blog post.

I hope they do not take offence, but I feel being proactive on this is important.

19k · January 26, 2012

As long as the cache is rated properly then there shouldn't be any issue. IMHO, any cache that is made to look indistinguishable from a working electrical box or panel or cover should carry a Terrain rating of 5 because it requires specialized equipment or knowledge to tell the difference.

Agreed!

19k · January 26, 2012

I think for me the verdict is in on this one. If this is what the experts, see below, (and a Geocacher in this case) have to say, I will gladly heed their advice.

I think the community needs to be pro-active on this.

One by not placing these types of caches, and

Two by appropriately dealing with them when found.

It is not enough to just say "If you don't like them then don't do them"- there is a safety factor that needs to be considered here for everyones benefit.

Then there is the whole placing them on private property issue- which the guidelines clearly address.

I am certainly not in a "huff" about this, but I will deal with an issue I think is important- and safety is always important.

From Johnny-Geo's blog:

Adding the element of electrical equipment to our game increases the risk of injury or death that should not be part of our hobby, or any other hobby.

Now to the "meat and potatoes" of this Blog:

Have you ever geocached in, on or around green power boxes(padmount transformers), lamp post caches (LPC's), electrical transmission tower legs and sometimes even FAKE electrical boxes/equipment? Again, all added risk that shouldn't be part of our hobby.

Fake electrical boxes: "What's the danger there?"

Children tend to stick their hands in anywhere and if a child can open a cover to something they'll do it cause they're curious. They learn what's safe and what's not safe by watching adults. If we teach kids that it's okay to open up fake electrical boxes because caches are hidden in them, then I feel that we are placing children in danger.

If that child comes across real electrical equipment that was left open because it was vandalized, would they know to stay away from it? I would say no. Would you stay away from it? Do you know the difference between real and fake electrical equipment? I've seen some very realistic stuff out there.

It's not okay for children(and adults for that matter) to get-use-to playing around electrical equipment.

Now let's talk about geocaching on a piece of electrical equipment (i.e. a transmission tower leg) What's the chance of that piece of electrical equipment failing? (Probability) Low? Okay, I could agree with that.

Let's say it failed. What is the consequence when a person touches a failed piece of electrical equipment and that person gives electricity another path to ground?(severity) I know from personal experience that there's usually no second chance of life. I choose to stay away from the equipment, I do not accept that risk into my life. Plain and simple.

There's no need to jeopardize yourself or others to the added risk of electricity.

IMO, Johnny Geo is indeed a "crazy alarmist guy.". I'm sorry, but people are not dropping like flies because of these public electrical devices. I have never, ever, ever heard of one single instance of a geocacher getting killed or injured by retrieving a cache like these, and children need to be taught young that they can eat the red berries, but not the black ones (or whatever). The world has many dangers. Nowhere near as many as previous generations, and they managed to propogate just fine.

January 26, 2012

Nice to have you back.

January 26, 2012

Yet more reasons to avoid "electrical caches"

In February 2007, the police department of Portsmouth, New Hampshire investigated what turned out to be a small geocache attached to an electrical panel at a supermarket. A couple of weeks earlier, an advertising agency's marketing ploy had effectively shut down the city of Boston when citizens reported suspicious electric devices placed in odd locations. The Portsmouth police department issued a report, chastising the geocacher for placing the cache in an area that could have caused a panic and warned geocachers that anyone hiding a cache in Portsmouth could be prosecuted. Geocachers have heard rumors that the entire state is considering a ban on geocaching out of the interest of public safety.

Some geocachers have followed the philosophy that hiding a cache isn't a problem until someone makes it one, but most argue that such an attitude is harmful for the hobby and casts all geocachers in a bad light.

Geocaches placed under the skirts of LPCs expose finders to the risk of being electrocuted from wiring that has shorted. What is particularly dangerous is when the cache is hidden inside the pole, where people are sticking their fingers near wiring. Even if the cache is not hidden inside the pole, people will still investigate there if the cache doesn't turn up immediately.

Maybe it is time for Groundspeak to address this. Think about it- how would you feel if someone was injured or killed as a result of a cache you placed-especially if you knew the risks involved in advance and chose to ignore them for the sake of a good hide.

Look, I am a cop. I have placed far too many bodies in body bags for stupid reasons. Reasons that people thought would never happen to them or their families.

Safety first. Period.

7.3k · January 26, 2012

children need to be taught young that they can eat the red berries, but not the black ones (or whatever).

Remind me to never let you into my backyard unsupervised. You might decide to eat the nightshade berries.

4.2k · January 26, 2012

I have sent the CO of the caches I am concerned about a message expressing my reservations, and a link to the blog post.

I hope they do not take offence, but I feel being proactive on this is important.

what exactly is your concern with this caches? i don't see anything remotely making them look real :unsure:

Edited January 26, 2012 by t4e

January 26, 2012

I have sent the CO of the caches I am concerned about a message expressing my reservations, and a link to the blog post.

I hope they do not take offence, but I feel being proactive on this is important.

what exactly is your concern with this caches? i don't see anything remotely making them look real

They look real enough! Besides read what I posted from Johnny-Geo's blog. That explains it all.

2.6k · January 26, 2012

I have sent the CO of the caches I am concerned about a message expressing my reservations, and a link to the blog post.

I hope they do not take offence, but I feel being proactive on this is important.

what exactly is your concern with this caches? i don't see anything remotely making them look real

They look real enough! Besides read what I posted from Johnny-Geo's blog. That explains it all.

.... and everything we read on the internet is true beyond reproach.

January 26, 2012

Ah, I see now how these spin out of control. Thanks for the demo. I'm new ya know. I thought common sense was common. I see I was mistaken.

Yes, pushing on an exposed box to see if it's magnetic could kill people. They should put signs up or fences or something if walking by and leaning on a street lamp or transformer can kill you. Why don't they put those fences up? We need bigger government.

(see what I did there? I tied all the crazy angst into one post...brilliant!)

January 26, 2012

I have sent the CO of the caches I am concerned about a message expressing my reservations, and a link to the blog post.

I hope they do not take offence, but I feel being proactive on this is important.

what exactly is your concern with this caches? i don't see anything remotely making them look real

They look real enough! Besides read what I posted from Johnny-Geo's blog. That explains it all.

.... and everything we read on the internet is true beyond reproach.

I would refer you to common sense on this one.

I have expressed my concerns (here and to the CO) , solicited opinions from the community, and found what I consider to be knowledgable information on the issue to help me make up my mind.

We could go on and on but I think I am done. I am clear in where I stand. Thanks to all who thoughtfully responded.

I will leave it to the rest of you to continue this as you see fit, but I am respectfully bowing out at this point.

Thanks again for the riveting discussion.

19k · January 26, 2012

I would refer you to common sense on this one.

I have expressed my concerns (here and to the CO) , solicited opinions from the community, and found what I consider to be knowledgable information on the issue to help me make up my mind.

We could go on and on but I think I am done. I am clear in where I stand. Thanks to all who thoughtfully responded.

I will leave it to the rest of you to continue this as you see fit, but I am respectfully bowing out at this point.

Thanks again for the riveting discussion.

I hope that you never have to change a lightbulb!

2.6k · January 26, 2012

People got very sick and even die from Lymes disease. You should avoid all caches that are near and vegation or where you must cross vegation to get to the cache.

Yes I know thats a bit extreme but claiming anything that might even resemble something that could be used for eletric service is just as extreme.

Take the proper precautions and enjoy without stressing out.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Totem Clan

January 26, 2012

Lyme disease?

First magnetic boxes on a wall, then light bulbs, and now plants? We're all gonna die! Think of the kids!

3.7k · January 26, 2012

Both caches look just fine to me.

+1. I've found dozens of caches like that over the years; they are "classic" hides in my area. I've also found some that were way more realistic - wires and tubing, etc.

6.1k · January 26, 2012

Well, I nearly was electrocuted while looking for a cache. Its nothing to joke about.

There was hardly ANY warning about lightning storms from the weatherman that day. Shocking, I know.

1.3k · January 26, 2012

If that rock is a fake rock cache, then there's a violation.

Fake rock caches aren't allowed?

15.3k · January 26, 2012

People got very sick and even die from Lymes disease. You should avoid all caches that are near and vegation or where you must cross vegation to get to the cache.

Don't forget the thousands and thousands of traffic deaths every year. We'd better stop driving to trailheads, or (gasp!) finding P&G caches.

Electrical Box Hides

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