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Physical caches without a logbook or trinkets - Hybrid Traditional/Virtual


BerrydTreasures
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We found a wonderful family park that we thought would be a great location to hide a cache. When we examined the area, we realized that a traditional container cache just wouldn't work, but we could place an object among the structures that blends in naturally to the casual observer. This object cannot hold a logbook nor any trinkets. What we did, was write a question on the object. Then, the cache finder has to search out the object, note the question, and email us the question with the answer.

 

This makes it a hybrid between a virtual cache and a traditional cache (no container, but there is a cache'd object). We marked the cache as the 'Unknown/Surprise' type of cache.

 

Our proposal has been disapproved at this time and we were instructed to take the idea to the forum to gather people's feedback. This is definitely a cache that is targetted to the "in it for the hunt" type of cacher. We feel that the object is fairly difficult to locate and would be a challenge. Also, we have done several micro caches in the past that were too small for a logbook and only contained a question to be answered and we really enjoyed these caches.

 

So, what would you think of this type of hybrid cache, assuming that the Cache page clearly stated that the object was not a container but had a question written on it?

 

Thanks for your feedback.

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Not to beat a point too much, but not having the tools or skills - I consider something like that to be a challenge for myself. Many times in my life I've wanted to do something, but didn't have the skills. I searched out someone with the tools and picked their brains about how to get my job done. When it was all over, I had usually learned something that I can use again later in life.

 

I'm sure with as many finds under your belt as you have, you've seen some clever ways of creating cache containers, and that wealth of knowledge may give you some ideas as well.

 

quote:
Also, we have done several micro caches in the past that were too small for a logbook and only contained a question to be answered and we really enjoyed these caches.
The admins are pretty strict nowadays about any physical cache having a log book - even the micro caches. From what I can tell, the ones you describe aren't being approved anymore. That's why yours got denied, I believe.

 

My 2¢: caches should have log books in them if nothing else. I got stomped by a few people for having that opinion over here, and of course, there's the current topic where people are fretting about caches only having a logbook.

 

Others haven't chimed in, so I'd be interested in their opinion as well.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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I don't care one way or the other about log books. My written logs are boring anyway. I've even found caches and not opened them because it was pouring rain and I didn't wan't to drench the cache

 

You are right when you say a traditional park doesn't leave much room for a normal cache. I'm impressed you found an object that won't get plundered in it's own right.

 

So here is my take. A normal kiddie park isn't worth a virtual cache. "Come one come all, idenify the swingset by email to claim your find).

 

You solved a problem with a creative means. If you ever do find a way to hollow that puppy out great. If not, I don't see the harm. Besides you will get a chance to see if your object blends as well as you think it does.

 

Heck, give it two weeks. If it lasts...maybe try again with your admin.

 

Wherever you go there you are.

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I had an idea to put out some "password" caches in the remote areas I often backpack in, just to entice others to get out further than they normally do. In order to keep the clutter down, I was going to set these up in the tiny altoids tins with just a password glued to the inner lid, and a VERY SMALL geocache info sheet in a very small zip lock bag.

 

In order to log the cache, you simply e-mail me the password in the container. Having a container gets around setting up a virtual because there is something to find. The "log book" would be the cache page on this wonderful website.

 

Just my $0.02

Shane

 

Adversity is certain, misery is optional.

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

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There are quite a few of these style of caches in our area. I have no problem with them. They are some of the more challenging caches to search for because they can be very small, or odd shaped. I would vote for allowing caches like these.

 

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

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Our team has done plenty of these kinds of caches before. One was a scrap of paper tucked in a stick in the crotch of a tree. There is a whole series of them that are in small capsules the size of a tylenol capsule. I could go on and on, but the point I'm making is that we enjoyed each and every one of them. I'm not sure who got the idea that this should suddenly be controversial, or why.

 

The only reason I could see for not approving this is that the area is already saturated with caches and they really don't want to approve one more, but if that is the case, they should say that. People in the area of the proposed cache would probably be grateful for another fun cache in what sounds like a nice location. Are the many caches near to the proposed cache site?

 

Approve the cache, pick up your GPS and go outside. The cache you approve today may be the cache you have fun finding tomorrow!

 

[This message was edited by 8 Feet on March 27, 2003 at 08:52 PM.]

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My two cents. We like the challenge of non-traditional caches. We've enjoyed your caches before and this one sounds like fun too. Too many caches of the exact same type (go here and find the same old ammo can under the rocks) gets old really fast. If the powers that be won't approve it, please post it on the Arizona mailing list. It won't elevate anyone's numbers, but some of us aren't obsessed with numbers.

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quote:
Originally posted by 8 Feet:

The only reason I could see for not approving this is that the area is already saturated with caches and they really don't want to approve one more, but if that is the case, they should say that. People in the area of the proposed cache would probably be grateful for another fun cache in what sounds like a nice location. Are the many caches near to the proposed cache site?


 

The city where this cache is placed has only about 8 or 9 caches, with the nearest one about 5 miles from ours, so cache saturation is not an issue here, in fact cache starvation is more of a concern.

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Then what's to stop someone from throwing down an old sneaker and calling it a cache?

 

As for not being able to hide a cache, recently me and my better half were scouting an area and thought a particular spot would be too likely to be plundered. Well, lo and behold, come to find out there is a letterbox within a few feet and we had a hard time finding it! It was a small rubbermaid container large enough for a full sized log.

 

Also, there is a local park that one might assume you couldn't successfully hide a cache, but there are two full sized traditionals and a letterbox! ...all of which have full sized logs.

 

Another cache in a local park is in some bushes that perhaps better than a hundred joggers and walkers pass within feet every day. It's a large icecream bucket.

 

A local park has a medium tupperware container with full sized log and many trades hidden in low growth. Fairly hard to find. AND the same park has a virtual. (Yeah, they are too close.)

 

There is a playground with many kids every day that has a trading micro. It's very well concealed and hard to find.

 

My point is, if you look hard enough you will find a way to hide a tradition cache complete with log and maybe trades even where you once thought it impossible.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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So, whats to stop someone from throwing down an old sneaker with a log book in it and calling it a cache?

 

The answer is the geocachers that place the caches. And, while we don't know the specifics of this cache container, I'm doubtful that the item you must find for this cache is an old piece of trash.

 

So we have a cache, placed in an area that has very few caches, that follows a precident set by many other similar caches. I fail to see why this cache isn't online yet.

 

And what is so special about the logbook? If that is really the crux of this situation, then what about logbooks that nothing more than a scrap of paper? Should those be approved? There is a cache I once did that was called the "25 cent cache". The container was a capsule from a gumball machine with a scrap of paper in it. As I reached for the cache container, I couldn't believe that the cache got approved. (It turns out that the description doesn't let on what the container is, so I know how it got approved.) I just looked up that cache, and it has 74 finds on it. I'm sure each of those 74 teams had fun finding that cache.

 

Out here in the southwest, hides can be tricky. We don't have all the lush vegitation in our parks to hide stuff in and around. We do have plants in our parks, which are constantly landscaped to keep them looking good. (When you only have a few plants, you notice when they need trimming). I doubt that all the hiding possibilities that are available to you are available to everyone. I'm sure they aren't available to me in Arizona.

 

[This message was edited by 8 Feet on March 27, 2003 at 09:01 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by 8 Feet:

The answer is the geocachers that place the caches.


 

You're kidding me, right?

 

It's the cachers that are trying to get away with anything they can. I don't know the particulars, but I believe someone actually tried to get an old sneaker approved. I do seem to remember something about a virtual involving taking pictures of a rotting bird carcass.

 

To think people will automatically NOT submit a cache that is outside the bounds is simply wrong.

 

A traditional cache in it's most basic form is a suitable container and a logbook.

 

Yes, any container will do as long as it protects the contents, lasts, and doesn't harm the environment. (Depending on the location, some containers are more suitable than others.)

 

Yes, a log can be only a slip of paper. I've come across a few of those. Micros, because of the size, mostly requires homemode logs--generally rolled up strips of paper.

 

As for your gumball cache, yes it's on the lower end, but still meets the minimum requirements.

 

As for hiding a cache, some of my references involved heavily landscaped parks and some places with no vegetation at all. I know of at least one local cacher that probably could figure out a way to successfully hide a traditional in a barren asphalt parking lot.

 

IMHO, much of hiding a cache is figuring out how to hide a traditional cache in difficult situations.

 

CR

 

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So what's next, Spot Caches? You go to the listed coordinates and take a picture of your GPS and post a find? No interesting spot, no cache, no nothing? Oh, wait, it should be called "Nothing/Locationless Hybrid," right?

 

But, wait, that's doesn't allow those without cameras to play. Hell, just go to the spot and log a find. Better yet, just email the owner that you thought about going to the spot and log a find. Oh, oh, even better, just log a find and don't even think about going to the spot.

 

Okay, so I was getting ridiculous. Point is either figure out a way to put micro in there or make it a virtual. Don't go trying to skirt the guidelines by writing a word on a rock and calling it a cache. You got to put more effort into it than that.

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quote:
My point is, if you look hard enough you will find a way to hide a tradition cache complete with log and maybe trades even where you once thought it impossible.

 

Maybe they don't want to? I don't buy the arguement that everybody who wants to do something like this is being lazy.

 

I fail to see why so many people are getting into such a tizzy over stuff like this. This is supposed to be a game/sport/hobby. It's for fun. Perhaps they don't want to hide a 'traditional cache'.

 

The only kind of cache I have any sort of problem with are the so called 'locationless' caches. But if people like them, so what?

 

The game is about find stuff with your GPSr and other tools/skills. So what if there's not a box full of cr#p to trade? So what if there's not a physical log? IF it's truely not about numbers, why does it matter?

 

I think hiding an object with a password is an interesting idea. I don't see how the type of the object matters as long as it's not breaking one of the rules about what can't be in a cache and doesn't harm the environment. Hell, if it was a shoe that'd be fine - but it'd likely be moved. If it's not an obvious item and it's not likely to be moved - great.

 

If it's about finding coordinates - I don't see how it can matter if it's "traditional", "micro", "virtual", or "hybrid/surprise" - or even event. There is a slight issue w/ locationless - but if it makes people happy - so what.

 

Too many people are getting upset over how OTHER people have fun.

 

If you don't like the type of cache or the description looks off - DON'T LOOK FOR IT.

 

SouthDeltan

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quote:
Originally posted by South Deltan:

quote:
My point is, if you look hard enough you will find a way to hide a tradition cache complete with log and maybe trades even where you once thought it impossible.

 

Maybe they don't want to? I don't buy the arguement that everybody who wants to do something like this is being lazy.

 

I fail to see why so many people are getting into such a tizzy over stuff like this. This is supposed to be a game/sport/hobby. It's for fun. Perhaps they don't want to hide a 'traditional cache'.

 

The only kind of cache I have any sort of problem with are the so called 'locationless' caches. But if people like them, so what?

 

The game is about find stuff with your GPSr and other tools/skills. So what if there's not a box full of cr#p to trade? So what if there's not a physical log? IF it's truely not about numbers, why does it matter?

 

I think hiding an object with a password is an interesting idea. I don't see how the type of the object matters as long as it's not breaking one of the rules about what can't be in a cache and doesn't harm the environment. Hell, if it was a shoe that'd be fine - but it'd likely be moved. If it's not an obvious item and it's not likely to be moved - great.

 

If it's about finding coordinates - I don't see how it can matter if it's "traditional", "micro", "virtual", or "hybrid/surprise" - or even event. There is a slight issue w/ locationless - but if it makes people happy - so what.

 

Too many people are getting upset over how OTHER people have fun.

 

If you don't like the type of cache or the description looks off - DON'T LOOK FOR IT.

 

SouthDeltan


 

Ditto! I did my first "offset cache" this past weekend. To tell the truth...it kind of sucked. I don't like the idea of them now. So...I will look for other types of caches. I have done a few "V" caches. 1 was cool...the others...well...I might do some again.

 

Bottom line...If you don't like that kind of cache DON'T DO IT! If you don't like the caches I place, don't search for any of mine.

 

BTW, all of my caches I have placed are "T" caches but, one does require a boat. Don't like that kind of cache...you get the idea.

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quote:
Too many people are getting upset over how OTHER people have fun.

 

If you don't like the type of cache or the description looks off - DON'T LOOK FOR IT.


 

I guess you haven't approached a park manager yet to request permission to place a physical cache, had them look at the other caches near them, then tell you they'll allow a virtual because it's just as popular and easier for them.

 

It's happened to me. icon_frown.gif

 

I realize that's off the topic of micro's w/o log books, but it looks like this thread has migrated off topic anyway icon_wink.gif The same trend could occur if people hid wine bottle corks in parks and challenged people to find them and e-mail them the winery's name. I suspect you'd also find the bureaucrats latching onto that as an alternative to an ammobox that they might just allow in "their" park.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't want geocaching to go into a death spiral because a vocal few want to just have fun their way.

 

~erik~

 

[This message was edited by ~erik~ on March 28, 2003 at 10:11 AM.]

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I support this type cache. I support all kinds of non-traditional caches. I believe the sport should be broad enough to appeal to a range of tastes. It sounds like there are already examples of caches similar to the style being proposed, so there shouldn't be any issue. It is not a virtual, because an object has been placed for people to find. It is actually better than a traditional with a log book, because the finder needs to verify the find. Sounds cool. I think I'll plant a couple.

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

I don't know the particulars, but I believe someone actually tried to get an old sneaker approved.


 

Woo hooo! That new search engine rocks!

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 1

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 2

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 3

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 4

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 5

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 6

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 7

Mention of the Sneaker Cache 8

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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I don't see any problem with calling this a virtual cache. It doesn't fit the bill of a "traditional cache" obviously.

 

As long as your description points out that there is no log book and nothing to trade, I don't see a problem.

 

When looking for caches to do with the kids, I see many that state that there is nothing to trade. Since the kids need the "reward" of finding a "treasure", we simply do not go looking for those types of caches.

 

In my opion, what you are describing is really no different.

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First off, I want to thank everyone who has posted a reply on this thread so far. It has been interesting seeing people's views. I have another quesiton related to this topic: What is the "Unknown/Surprise" category of cache supposed to be used for when placing a cache?

 

When we submitted the cache, we did not list it as a Traditional cache, because it is not a Traditional cache. There really isn't a good description, that we could find anyway, of the "Unknown/Surprise" category. So, what do people think this means, and is it appropriate for the type of cache we placed?

 

Thanks again.

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Hey, would that engine that "rocks" be a search engine thats development was funded by charter members dues (that are paid by teams who are trying to better the sport) like the team that started the thread? I doubt you'll see a charter member team "... trying to get away with anything they can."

 

Perhaps you could use that search engine to find caches with logbooks and I could use it to find caches without logbooks and we could both geocache in harmony.

 

[This message was edited by 8 Feet on March 28, 2003 at 01:41 PM.

 

[This message was edited by 8 Feet on March 28, 2003 at 01:42 PM.]

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I think people are misinterpreting my suggestions. I'm not in any way shape or form saying icon_mad.gificon_mad.gificon_mad.gif"Don't do this! It will be the death of our sport! Grrrrr!! icon_mad.gificon_mad.gificon_mad.gif" I simply made some suggestions to try to fit within the guidelines that have been established.

 

Apparently, TPTB are reluctant to have caches that use a "code word" or "tell me what's inside." With that in mind, I suggested that maybe it would be possible to use some ingenuity and create something similar with a hollowed out spot to place a log book.

 

Let me make this absolutely clear: I don't care about trade trinkets. I so rarely trade anymore I don't care if someone puts a 50 gallon drum out in the forrest and there's nothing but a log book.

 

But to forego the log book takes some of the fun away from the people that aren't first to find the cache. Some people don't log online. Where can I read their stories?

 

What about the casual finder that stumbles across this placed object? They pick it up and see a password on the bottom that means nothing to them. They can either A) ignore it or B) cart it off to the local authorities thinking it was an act of vandalism (somebody defaced this rock/tree trunk/etc.).

 

However, I don't see this as a huge deal. Someone asked for opinions and I had one. Can we disagree without getting nasty? icon_frown.gif

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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Well, now the initial hub-bub has died down, I went back and reread the cache guidelines. It says (and I quote) "A physical (traditional) cache is a container that, at a bare minumum, contains a logbook. In addition, objects for trade can be put in a cache." Now in the original post it said this was a "Hidden/Surprise" cache since it wasn't quite traditional and not quite virtual. Is there an unwritten rule that they must have a log as well? What do people expect to find when they seek a 'Hidden/Surprise' cache?

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quote:
What do people expect to find when they seek a 'Hidden/Surprise' cache?

 

Per the first sentence of the guideline you quoted, if the "Hidden/Surprise" cache is physical a logbook is expected by the site.

 

Some people have different expectations. Some expect to find adventure on a cache hunt, some want only to earn a "smilie", some hope to run into another geocacher and find love. icon_wink.gif Seriously, a "surprise" cache should be one that delights in an unexpected way, not an ordinary cache called that to get around a rule.

 

quote:
Is there an unwritten rule that they must have a log as well?

There really are no unwritten rules, just interpretations of the posted ones. Those who interprete them differently from the cache approver post here to invite discussion - hence this thread.

 

erik - geocaching.com admin

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Erik, Thanks for the response. I noticed the team that planted this cache had been asking the same question, but no one was answering it.

 

I've been in touch with the team that planted the cache that started this thread. They placed an item (which makes it physical) designed to blend in with the surroundings in an area that other solutions seemingly would not fit. I think that for the finders, it will be a surprise as, because of the surroundings, you just wouldn't expect that something could be hidden there.

 

I'm sure it is tough being an admin (a discussion you and I had when you were not approving one of my caches icon_wink.gif) but this just didn't seem worthy of all the discussion it was getting (unique hide, in an area without many caches, listed as a 'surprise/hidden', that only was lacking a physical logbook).

 

Thanks for taking the time to provide some admin insight.

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For me, the search for the cache is 60% of the fun. Heck, make it 80%. I love getting out to places I've never been before and appreciate the efforts of cachers who have found great parks and/or sites.

 

But the most fun is the search. An unusual container, something "hidden in plain sight," or a really clever hiding spot is what makes it fun for me. I'm discouraged by the crackdown on what can and cannot be hidden and I've started encouraging others to hide them anyway. So what if we can't post them here? We're in it for the hunt, not the numbers, right?

 

This cache sounds interesting. I hope it gets approved. But if it doesn't go ahead and set it anyway and let your locals know. I bet they appreciate your efforts.

 

X is for X, and X marks the spot, On the rug in the parlor, The sand in the lot, Where once you were standing, And now you are not.

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i'm for it. but then again, i come down again and again on the side of "i'll hunt anything". i like variety, and i don't care what i find. benchmarks, virts, log, no log, whatever.

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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This sounds like a virtual cache (and an extra nifty one at that) that should be approved. We've seen many virtual caches that say seek out the marker, plaque, etc. and answer such and such a question which can be found on the given marker, plaque, etc. To place an object, that blends in... and to have a question on it...sounds great! If this cache were near us, we would give it a shot. If virtuals don't need a logbook, why should this? Maybe require a picture near the object in question as a sort of physical "log"? This peoples feedback say "approved!"

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