Log sheets at every stage of a multi cache

October 8, 2011

I don't get it, why is it that some people put a log sheet in every stage of a multi cache? If the whole point of having stages is to provide additional clues or coords to the next stage or the final, why is a log sheet at each stage necessary? Technically a person could find stage 1 only and claim a find since they signed a log book. I've run into this a few times now, and although it baffled me, it never really bothered me until today.

I often load caches into my GPSr that I don't plan to look for right away. Today I happened to be near a park that has 4 caches so I stopped to look on a whim. These caches have been in my GPSr for over a year and of course I haven't looked at the cache pages since I downloaded them so the only info I had was cache name and coords. I have an older Etrex Venture HC, and it doesn't have the ability to save any more info than that.

Occasionally I will delete part of the cache name and replace it with the size so I have something to reference in the field. I had done just that with the first one I searched for. It was marked as a regular size but I found a micro instead. This didn't surprise me too much since people change their container size occasionally. As I was signing the log sheet I noticed a soggy scrap of paper wadded up in the bottom of the container. I dug it out and it had coordinates on it(different paper, font and font size than log sheet). I went to those coords but found nothing so I figured it was another finder's idea of a sick joke. Went to the next cache (different hider), found bison tube with log sheet, signed it and moved on.

Once I got home I went to log my finds and found that both of them were actually multis. I don't get what the point is of having logs at every stage, in both of these cases all it did was confuse me into thinking I had found traditional caches rather than stages of multis.

6.7k · October 8, 2011

Some people have been known to share the final location of multi-caches. In response some COs have decided that they will require signing of a log in each stage.

Personally I think it is an ALR. But as I seldom log as a find and couldn't care less about my numbers it really doesn't matter if a CO deletes my find. I got to enjoy the cache either way.

You also need to get you a way to keep cache info on hand. Check into an old PDA. Another thought is when you load caches to your GPS and change the title to the GC# instead of the GC use a code for the cache type. So GC1234 would be M1234 if a multi or T1234 if a traditional. Could save you some confusion.

7.9k · October 8, 2011

Another good reason not to do that (a log in every stage). <_<

Also, another good reason to update the waypoints in your GPSr more often than yearly! :lol:

I use GSAK to upload special icons for the different types of caches, so I can tell at a glance on the screen if it's a multi, mystery, traditional...I even have an override set for micros.

3.6k · October 9, 2011

People with control issue tend to do that. They worry about cheaters too much. <_<

2.4k · October 9, 2011

Question is... were the log sheets provided by the CO, or added by people who simply found the first container and stopped there and needed the smiley? Did the online logs show the multis as completed in full? I've seen a few that were missing stages and the last in place was considered to be the final... by the finder who returned to place the log there.

Most I've done have a micro/nano with coordinates for the next stage, I only remember one with a log for the first stage as well as stage two the final.

Doug 7rxc

1.7k · October 9, 2011

Most I've done have a micro/nano with coordinates for the next stage, I only remember one with a log for the first stage as well as stage two the final.

A good multi recognizes it's strengths (more creativity on coordinates stages without log book) and stops relying on it's weaknesses (Multi's inheritly don't get found as much, as such a larger cache is not needed because not much trading will be going on).

I think the ones you mentioned miss the point.

22k · October 9, 2011

I don't get it, why is it that some people put a log sheet in every stage of a multi cache? If the whole point of having stages is to provide additional clues or coords to the next stage or the final, why is a log sheet at each stage necessary? Technically a person could find stage 1 only and claim a find since they signed a log book. I've run into this a few times now, and although it baffled me, it never really bothered me until today.

I often load caches into my GPSr that I don't plan to look for right away. Today I happened to be near a park that has 4 caches so I stopped to look on a whim. These caches have been in my GPSr for over a year and of course I haven't looked at the cache pages since I downloaded them so the only info I had was cache name and coords. I have an older Etrex Venture HC, and it doesn't have the ability to save any more info than that.

Occasionally I will delete part of the cache name and replace it with the size so I have something to reference in the field. I had done just that with the first one I searched for. It was marked as a regular size but I found a micro instead. This didn't surprise me too much since people change their container size occasionally. As I was signing the log sheet I noticed a soggy scrap of paper wadded up in the bottom of the container. I dug it out and it had coordinates on it(different paper, font and font size than log sheet). I went to those coords but found nothing so I figured it was another finder's idea of a sick joke. Went to the next cache (different hider), found bison tube with log sheet, signed it and moved on.

Once I got home I went to log my finds and found that both of them were actually multis. I don't get what the point is of having logs at every stage, in both of these cases all it did was confuse me into thinking I had found traditional caches rather than stages of multis.

So let me guess, you want to claim a Found It for finding the first leg of a multi.

October 9, 2011

So let me guess, you want to claim a Found It for finding the first leg of a multi.

You would guess incorrectly, I've already posted my DNF's in fact. My point is, because I found containers with log books, I thought I had found traditionals rather than multis. Now I'll have to make a trip back to complete caches that I thought I had completed when I signed the logs.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Mushroom finder

October 9, 2011

Is it not a series, not a multi if you log every stage!

6.7k · October 9, 2011

Is it not a series, not a multi if you log every stage!

Only one GC#. Only one cache page. Multiple locations. Sounds like a multi to me.

10.1k · October 9, 2011

Sign log, log on-line, get smiley. If the CO put a log in the first stage, and I signed it, then it counts as a find! Requiring signatures at every stage is an ALR.

3k · October 9, 2011

The only multi I have found with a log in every stage was a newbie who probably didn't know better.

7.9k · October 10, 2011

Sign log, log on-line, get smiley. If the CO put a log in the first stage, and I signed it, then it counts as a find! Requiring signatures at every stage is an ALR.

And on the other fin, I'm only going to sign the log in the final if I know it's a multi.

Yes, it's an ALR. (Additional Logging Requirement)

If the owner insists on deleting my log because my sig was not on one or more of the intermediate stages, his cache might have repeated problems with missing stages. :anibad:

22k · October 10, 2011

So let me guess, you want to claim a Found It for finding the first leg of a multi.

You would guess incorrectly, I've already posted my DNF's in fact. My point is, because I found containers with log books, I thought I had found traditionals rather than multis. Now I'll have to make a trip back to complete caches that I thought I had completed when I signed the logs.

Okay, thank you.

I think the fact that you didn't know it was a multi is your fault. Cacher emptor.

That you found something that was apparently a logbook isn't really a problem when you know it's a multi.

bd

Edited October 10, 2011 by BlueDeuce

9.3k · October 10, 2011

I use GSAK to upload special icons for the different types of caches

Yeah, that's what I did for my 60CSx. My GSAK output was set to display an orange circle for multis, green circle for traditionals, blue circle for mysteries, white circle for virtuals and a purple circle for letterboxes. Then I alter the cache name so it displays the first several characters, then changes the last four to reflect type, size, difficulty and terrain. In the notes field, I get a hole heap of characters from the hint.

At a glance, I can tell what I am heading for.

October 10, 2011

Admittedly, I went after the caches blindly. Funny thing about unplanned caching runs when you're already out in the field, rarely do you have a chance to review the page before you set out. I knew full well that the caches I had saved might have since been relocated, might be missing, or might be disabled or even archived, that's a gamble I was willing to take.

Going blindly often adds to the challenge and enjoyment. BUT, I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation when you find a cache that it should be readily apparent what type of cache it is. When I find a container with a log sheet full of signatures, noting about that says to me "hey, I'm just a stage of a multi".

I'll go back to find them another day, but it will be interesting to see how many of the signatures at the first stages actually appear at the finals. After looking back through my finds, I guess I've actually only come across this scenario one other time, and the CO of that one happens to be the CO of one of these as well. If I remember correctly, there were far more signatures at stage 1 than there were at stage 2 and the final. Seems to me that CO's who do this actually shoot themselves in the foot because they make it easier for people to do exactly what they were trying to prevent ~ log a find without visiting all the stages.

3.2k · October 10, 2011

I'll go back to find them another day, but it will be interesting to see how many of the signatures at the first stages actually appear at the finals. After looking back through my finds, I guess I've actually only come across this scenario one other time, and the CO of that one happens to be the CO of one of these as well. If I remember correctly, there were far more signatures at stage 1 than there were at stage 2 and the final. Seems to me that CO's who do this actually shoot themselves in the foot because they make it easier for people to do exactly what they were trying to prevent ~ log a find without visiting all the stages.

You are correct, in fact had you come here saying you had found the final without signing the log, the thread would have went differently with most saying it was a valid find.

While I think what happened is a gray area due to the ALR of a log in stage one, I would probably handle it as you are. Good luck.

22k · October 10, 2011

<snip>... Seems to me that CO's who do this actually shoot themselves in the foot because they make it easier for people to do exactly what they were trying to prevent ~ log a find without visiting all the stages.

True enough.

3k · January 29, 2012

Can I get verification from a Reviewer and/or the Guidelines requiring a signed log at every stage is an ALR?

2k · January 29, 2012

ugh, luckily I have not seen one like that ever. If a CO did that for the sole reason of trying to "prove" a finder did each stage, ALR or not, would make me not want to do his/her caches in future.

January 29, 2012

Can I get verification from a Reviewer and/or the Guidelines requiring a signed log at every stage is an ALR?

It's an ALR. If they got to the final by finding every stage, got lucky and stumbled across the final, or were given the final coordinates from a friend, if their name is in THE logbook, the cache owner really can't delete it.

3.4k · January 29, 2012

I haven't found very many multis, but on the only one I did find that had a log sheet in the first stage, it looked like the sheet had been added by a previous finder who evidently thought there should be one. I thought it was odd, but I signed it, then went on and found the final and signed that too. Fortunately, I knew I was looking for a multi, or I also might have quit after signing the first stage.

7.9k · January 29, 2012

Can I get verification from a Reviewer and/or the Guidelines requiring a signed log at every stage is an ALR?

It's an ALR. If they got to the final by finding every stage, got lucky and stumbled across the final, or were given the final coordinates from a friend, if their name is in THE logbook, the cache owner really can't delete it.

So now the question is, Should I post a 'Needs Archived' on the caches I know of that have this 'requirement', or would someone need to test the owners plan to check all the stages and delete if one is unsigned?

3.2k · January 29, 2012

So now the question is, Should I post a 'Needs Archived' on the caches I know of that have this 'requirement', or would someone need to test the owners plan to check all the stages and delete if one is unsigned?

Is the cache placed on private property or endangering the finder the seeker? Is it placed within guidelines and has the guideline violation directly impacted you? Is the CO MIA and th cache not maintained? If no, you should not post a NA.

If you get your log deleted because you only signed the final, the you need to contact Grounspeak directly via email to have it restored.

With almost 9K finds and 5000+ posts in the forums, I would have thought you would have been familiar with this process.re.

7.9k · January 29, 2012

Is it placed within guidelines and has the guideline violation directly impacted you? If no, you should not post a NA.

A cache that is in violation of the guidelines does not need to affect me directly to be in violation.

If someone digs a hole in a city park to bury their cache, it's a violation...doesn't affect me directly unless they dig the hole in my yard.

Should I report it to the reviewer, or just let it go since it didn't affect me directly?

Maybe I shouldn't have been concerned about the one on the railroad crossing gate, since I wasn't hit by a train. <_<

7.8k · January 29, 2012

So now the question is, Should I post a 'Needs Archived' on the caches I know of that have this 'requirement', or would someone need to test the owners plan to check all the stages and delete if one is unsigned?

Unless the owner is actively deleting logs based on this requirement, there isn't a problem. It sounds more like these are just COs that are unaware of how multis are intended to work. A better idea might be to send them a polite message educating them as to the proper way of hiding a multi (log only in the final) and pointing out the possible pitfalls of putting a log in each stage, as per Mushroom finders comment:

Seems to me that CO's who do this actually shoot themselves in the foot because they make it easier for people to do exactly what they were trying to prevent ~ log a find without visiting all the stages.

3.2k · January 29, 2012

Is it placed within guidelines and has the guideline violation directly impacted you? If no, you should not post a NA.

A cache that is in violation of the guidelines does not need to affect me directly to be in violation.

If someone digs a hole in a city park to bury their cache, it's a violation...doesn't affect me directly unless they dig the hole in my yard.

Should I report it to the reviewer, or just let it go since it didn't affect me directly?

Maybe I shouldn't have been concerned about the one on the railroad crossing gate, since I wasn't hit by a train.

The first part was answered in the part of my post that you comviently edited out. Your last question is not really comparable since it is a direct safety issue. Seriously, have you not been paying attention this whole time you have been here in the forums?

January 29, 2012

There is a multi-cache in this area placed by someone who has been in the game for quite some time. The cache page provides the waypoints for each of the four stages. At each stage is a digit required for the coordinates of the final cache. The stages also contain logsheets that you may sign to claim bonus smilies on the cache. So one for the final and 4 :rolleyes: for the stages.

14k · January 30, 2012

Admittedly, I went after the caches blindly. Funny thing about unplanned caching runs when you're already out in the field, rarely do you have a chance to review the page before you set out. I knew full well that the caches I had saved might have since been relocated, might be missing, or might be disabled or even archived, that's a gamble I was willing to take.

Going blindly often adds to the challenge and enjoyment. BUT, I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation when you find a cache that it should be readily apparent what type of cache it is. When I find a container with a log sheet full of signatures, noting about that says to me "hey, I'm just a stage of a multi".

I'll go back to find them another day, but it will be interesting to see how many of the signatures at the first stages actually appear at the finals. After looking back through my finds, I guess I've actually only come across this scenario one other time, and the CO of that one happens to be the CO of one of these as well. If I remember correctly, there were far more signatures at stage 1 than there were at stage 2 and the final. Seems to me that CO's who do this actually shoot themselves in the foot because they make it easier for people to do exactly what they were trying to prevent ~ log a find without visiting all the stages.

Maybe I missed something but a cache with a physical container that was part of a multi should have a set of coordinates for a subsequent stage. Granted, the inclusion of a log book might be confusing, but if there was also a set of coordinates in it I'd assume it was part of a multi.

3k · January 30, 2012

There is a multi-cache in this area placed by someone who has been in the game for quite some time. The cache page provides the waypoints for each of the four stages. At each stage is a digit required for the coordinates of the final cache. The stages also contain logsheets that you may sign to claim bonus smilies on the cache. So one for the final and 4 for the stages.

Should be 4 Traditionals and 1 bonus cache (Mystery). :rolleyes:

7.9k · January 30, 2012

Is it placed within guidelines and has the guideline violation directly impacted you? If no, you should not post a NA.

A cache that is in violation of the guidelines does not need to affect me directly to be in violation.

If someone digs a hole in a city park to bury their cache, it's a violation...doesn't affect me directly unless they dig the hole in my yard.

Should I report it to the reviewer, or just let it go since it didn't affect me directly?

Maybe I shouldn't have been concerned about the one on the railroad crossing gate, since I wasn't hit by a train.

The first part was answered in the part of my post that you comviently edited out. Your last question is not really comparable since it is a direct safety issue. Seriously, have you not been paying attention this whole time you have been here in the forums?

Can you argue a point without bordering on a direct insult?

If I know of a cache (in my local area) that appears to be in violation of the guidelines, I think maybe it is my duty as a responsible geocacher to let the reviewer know about it. There have been cases where the cache text was edited post-approval to get around issues the CO knew the reviewer wouldn't allow.

3.2k · January 30, 2012

Is it placed within guidelines and has the guideline violation directly impacted you? If no, you should not post a NA.

A cache that is in violation of the guidelines does not need to affect me directly to be in violation.

If someone digs a hole in a city park to bury their cache, it's a violation...doesn't affect me directly unless they dig the hole in my yard.

Should I report it to the reviewer, or just let it go since it didn't affect me directly?

Maybe I shouldn't have been concerned about the one on the railroad crossing gate, since I wasn't hit by a train.

The first part was answered in the part of my post that you comviently edited out. Your last question is not really comparable since it is a direct safety issue. Seriously, have you not been paying attention this whole time you have been here in the forums?

Can you argue a point without bordering on a direct insult?

If I know of a cache (in my local area) that appears to be in violation of the guidelines, I think maybe it is my duty as a responsible geocacher to let the reviewer know about it. There have been cases where the cache text was edited post-approval to get around issues the CO knew the reviewer wouldn't allow.

Possibly if you stop asking questions you already know the answers to.

However, let me answer this one as I do know you have discussed before,

Stating you have to sign each stage of a multi will cause a cache not to be approved. If you edit it after the fact to say it is required, it becomes an ALR when you delete a found it log based on the requirement.

In this topic, and strictly speaking to the OPs topic, until it affects you directly it is not your concern. When it becomes an issue, it will be dealt with accordingly.

9.3k · January 30, 2012

I use GSAK to upload special icons for the different types of caches, so I can tell at a glance on the screen if it's a multi, mystery, traditional.

I used to do that prior to going paperless. I also used the GSAK script that included the size and D/T rating as part of the cache name, and X number of letters from the hint in the note field.

5.7k · January 30, 2012

US Cacher of the Year whenever briansnat is not

Bahahahaha! Nice.

January 30, 2012

I have to agree with a couple fo comments - mainly, you have cachers who will share with their buddies the final location. If you put the time, energy and effort into a good multi-stage cache, you want people to do every stage. We have cachers in my area notorious for taking short cuts (its a good way for the male cachers to get in good with the female cachers too, lol ;-> ) However, the CO still needs to verify logs which would be a PITA to do.

There is a better way though - the good all ALR - alternate log requirements. Take a pic of each stage with your gps, and email it to the CO.

Me personally, I am working on a multi and i wont do either. If people want to short change themselves on the fun stages of a good multi, be my guest. If numbers are that important, then as far as I am concerned, what fun do you really get out of the game?

January 30, 2012

There is a multi-cache in this area placed by someone who has been in the game for quite some time. The cache page provides the waypoints for each of the four stages. At each stage is a digit required for the coordinates of the final cache. The stages also contain logsheets that you may sign to claim bonus smilies on the cache. So one for the final and 4 for the stages.

Should be 4 Traditionals and 1 bonus cache (Mystery).

Probably, but you aren't required to log the 1st 4 stages, just allowed by CO to do so.

3.2k · January 30, 2012

There is a multi-cache in this area placed by someone who has been in the game for quite some time. The cache page provides the waypoints for each of the four stages. At each stage is a digit required for the coordinates of the final cache. The stages also contain logsheets that you may sign to claim bonus smilies on the cache. So one for the final and 4 for the stages.

Should be 4 Traditionals and 1 bonus cache (Mystery).

Probably, but you aren't required to log the 1st 4 stages, just allowed by CO to do so.

You're never required to log anything, however if the CO allows it, it should be 4 traditionals and 1 mystery.

Log sheets at every stage of a multi cache

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