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people not completing challenges but logging as such


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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

Yes. One of my challanges got armchaired with a bogus photo. I would like the option to delete such logs on challanges that I create if they are not even attempted, much less completed.

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I think people need to come to terms with how the challenges are setup. It seems you want to control the logging process just like a conventional cache. The challenges are not set up like that. They are based on completer integrity for logging. There is no way that the froggie's lackeys want to get into arbitrating whether a log is actual a valid completion. Think of it as free range logging.

 

That is probably why they don't count it in your finds.

 

All the whining (and there has been plenty) in the forums about this subject has fallen on deaf ears.

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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

.

I did the first challenge and have to say that those people who only went halfway up are really missing out on a great view.

The people who visited today have a valid pic, and say they made the climb up, sounds like a perfectly fine log to me.

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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

.

I did the first challenge and have to say that those people who only went halfway up are really missing out on a great view.

The people who visited today have a valid pic, and say they made the climb up, sounds like a perfectly fine log to me.

 

No way to know for sure, but there was mention of hiking from the top down.

 

BTW, did you just thumbs-down my cave challenge? Oddly, before I posted on the forum, no thumbs-downs, then suddenly 1. Just saying. :unsure:

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That is probably why they don't count it in your finds.

 

I think the reason they don't add to your find count is because lots of people complained about them and the related feedback thread had 5000+ votes. Because when those things were first created they did add to your find count.

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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

.

I did the first challenge and have to say that those people who only went halfway up are really missing out on a great view.

The people who visited today have a valid pic, and say they made the climb up, sounds like a perfectly fine log to me.

 

No way to know for sure, but there was mention of hiking from the top down.

 

BTW, did you just thumbs-down my cave challenge? Oddly, before I posted on the forum, no thumbs-downs, then suddenly 1. Just saying. :unsure:

 

I have not seen your cave challenge. If I had I would have voted thumbs down and flagged it. Writing on stones and adding them to the cave is a bad idea. We should not be striving to change the environment in which we play. Just visiting should be enough.

 

As for the bogus logs all you can do is flag them. If enough people flag the logs they will be deleted.

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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

.

I did the first challenge and have to say that those people who only went halfway up are really missing out on a great view.

The people who visited today have a valid pic, and say they made the climb up, sounds like a perfectly fine log to me.

 

No way to know for sure, but there was mention of hiking from the top down.

 

BTW, did you just thumbs-down my cave challenge? Oddly, before I posted on the forum, no thumbs-downs, then suddenly 1. Just saying. :unsure:

 

Nope wasn't me, but I did thumbs up your other one.

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That is probably why they don't count it in your finds.

 

I think the reason they don't add to your find count is because lots of people complained about them and the related feedback thread had 5000+ votes. Because when those things were first created they did add to your find count.

 

And because Jeremy didn't want them to be counted towards the find count to begin with. I have the vague feeling that that helped a bit. :ph34r:

Edited by dfx
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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

 

This is only one of the many reasons I have been so against these challenges in the first place. No accountability.

They get published without any sort of review process, cannot be edited after someone accepts a challenge, there is no way to insure any sort of quality or even legality. Groundspeak really should have simply listened to its customers when the request was to bring back virtuals. Not provide apples for oranges.

There is one here in my area where absolutely no verification is required to log as a completion. http://coord.info/CX1CFB

 

Fortunately, no one has lowered themselves to do such but in all reality, anyone in the world can claim the completion without ever setting foot in the park as suggested.

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:laughing:

 

I guess I shouldn't care, really, but I've got people logging challenges I created as found, after not actually completing the task.

 

For instance, I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top. Sounds simple, right? Some people have taken a picture of themselves 1/2-way up, some have taken no picture at all, and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave. 1 cacher actually completed the challenge, 2 other cachers claimed they couldn't fit in the cave, so took a picture of themselves outside the cave and logged a 'completed' anyway.

 

Wonder if anyone else is experiencing this amusing phenomenon? :laughing:

This is one of the reasons I've been such a huge advocate for challenges.

 

It is an oft cited theory in these forums that geocachers, as a whole, are generally nicer than the average muggle because we all play a game which is utterly dependent upon the good will of others. Challenges takes that concept to a whole new level by making them entirely self regulating. There is no need to stress over that which you cannot control. Seeing the wisdom in this, Groundspeak opted to set challenges up so once they are created, they are set free to survive or perish on their own merits.

 

My advice?

 

Create the best challenges you can. (The two you describe sound pretty neat!)

 

Walk away and let them go.

 

Folks will enjoy them, or not.

 

Folks will log them as intended, or not.

 

Being a control freak harms no one but yourself. B)

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What is the general consensus (lol) on claiming credit for a challenge if you had previously been to a spot before the challenge existed? Valid to claim it or not?

 

Just because you had visited the spot before the challenge was created, is no reason to claim it completed. If you accepted the challenge to go do what is required, then you should go do it. If you do not want to go back to that spot and do what is required, then do not accept the challenge. Why lie about completing the challenge?

 

Why should we be expected to accept those lies about completing a challenge?

 

John

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Just because you had visited the spot before the challenge was created, is no reason to claim it completed. If you accepted the challenge to go do what is required, then you should go do it. If you do not want to go back to that spot and do what is required, then do not accept the challenge. Why lie about completing the challenge?

But they did complete the challenge. The challenge is just a specific task, right? Completing a task is completing a task, independent of anyone who may or may not have asked you to do it.

 

Why should we be expected to accept those lies about completing a challenge?

Well, it's not like you have much choice there... :P

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Just because you had visited the spot before the challenge was created, is no reason to claim it completed. If you accepted the challenge to go do what is required, then you should go do it. If you do not want to go back to that spot and do what is required, then do not accept the challenge. Why lie about completing the challenge?

But they did complete the challenge. The challenge is just a specific task, right? Completing a task is completing a task, independent of anyone who may or may not have asked you to do it.

 

Actually you are not completing a "task", you are being challenged to GO AND DO. You are NOT being asked if you have ever been to a spot. 2 separate and distinct actions.

 

John

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Just because you had visited the spot before the challenge was created, is no reason to claim it completed. If you accepted the challenge to go do what is required, then you should go do it. If you do not want to go back to that spot and do what is required, then do not accept the challenge. Why lie about completing the challenge?

But they did complete the challenge. The challenge is just a specific task, right? Completing a task is completing a task, independent of anyone who may or may not have asked you to do it.

 

Actually you are not completing a "task", you are being challenged to GO AND DO. You are NOT being asked if you have ever been to a spot. 2 separate and distinct actions.

 

Well, unless this is spelled out somewhere (and I mean spelled out, not creatively interpreted), I will stand by what I said. A challenge is a location-specific task and if you've already done that, then you've already completed the challenge.

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Just because you had visited the spot before the challenge was created, is no reason to claim it completed. If you accepted the challenge to go do what is required, then you should go do it. If you do not want to go back to that spot and do what is required, then do not accept the challenge. Why lie about completing the challenge?

But they did complete the challenge. The challenge is just a specific task, right? Completing a task is completing a task, independent of anyone who may or may not have asked you to do it.

 

Actually you are not completing a "task", you are being challenged to GO AND DO. You are NOT being asked if you have ever been to a spot. 2 separate and distinct actions.

 

Well, unless this is spelled out somewhere (and I mean spelled out, not creatively interpreted), I will stand by what I said. A challenge is a location-specific task and if you've already done that, then you've already completed the challenge.

 

Check your dictionary, where you will find it spelled out. It is a call to engage in an activity. It is not a question of 'have you ever been there done that".

 

John

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Check your dictionary, where you will find it spelled out. It is a call to engage in an activity. It is not a question of 'have you ever been there done that".

 

Syntax error, does not compute.

 

"Geocaching challenges" are as much "geocaching" as they're "challenges". Hence my reference to "creatively interpreted". Unless the site itself says somewhere, as a rule or guidelines or whatever, that past completion don't count, neither point of view is objectively right or wrong.

 

The only thing that I can see that vaguely suggests that only "new" completions are supposed to count is that you have to "accept" the challenge first and only then you can mark it as completed. But the reasons for having this sequence in place could well be very different.

Edited by dfx
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Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave.

 

You have a challenge that requires vandalism to complete it? Really?

 

Littering, not vandalism. We covered this on the other sign a rock and toss it in the rock pile thread. :anibad:

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That is probably why they don't count it in your finds.

 

I think the reason they don't add to your find count is because lots of people complained about them and the related feedback thread had 5000+ votes. Because when those things were first created they did add to your find count.

 

And because Jeremy didn't want them to be counted towards the find count to begin with. I have the vague feeling that that helped a bit. :ph34r:

For those of you who didn't follow the issue, Jeremy didn't want them to count toward your finds, but the lackys, and people in the feedback forum convinced him to let them count. But then once we saw what challanges were, everyone (approximatly) jumped up and down demanding that they not count toward your find count. So Jeremy, already not really wanting them to count, made it so.

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Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave.

 

You have a challenge that requires vandalism to complete it? Really?

 

Littering, not vandalism. We covered this on the other sign a rock and toss it in the rock pile thread. :anibad:

 

Call it what you want it still shouldn't be done.

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Another one I created asks people to go into a cave and place a rock with their caching name at the back of the cave.

 

You have a challenge that requires vandalism to complete it? Really?

 

Let's be real here for a second, this is no worse than any of us going out into a forest and purposely placing plastic/metal containers out there. I'm sure there are argument threads on that one too. I like the rock idea. Hundreds of years from now someone will walk into that cave and see all those names. No worse than cave drawings left by cavemen. I'm not for littering or vandalizing, but facts are facts. Leaving a Tupperware bowl in the woods is no better than throwing it out your car window.

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My advice?

 

Create the best challenges you can. (The two you describe sound pretty neat!)

 

Walk away and let them go.

 

Folks will enjoy them, or not.

 

Folks will log them as intended, or not.

 

Being a control freak harms no one but yourself. B)

 

My advice rather would be "Create no challenges at all" unless you really do not care at all what others will do with them. Caring about this aspect does not mean being a control freak.

 

Cezanne

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My advice?

 

Create the best challenges you can. (The two you describe sound pretty neat!)

 

Walk away and let them go.

 

Folks will enjoy them, or not.

 

Folks will log them as intended, or not.

 

Being a control freak harms no one but yourself. B)

 

My advice rather would be "Create no challenges at all" unless you really do not care at all what others will do with them. Caring about this aspect does not mean being a control freak.

 

Cezanne

 

+1 Thanks. :D Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it? I"m not planning to flag anybody's challenge completion if they don't actually do it, but I think the topic is still worthy for discussion. Mostly when I started this thread, I was interested in hearing other people's stories about whether or not most people are actually completing the challenges they created. For the ones I"ve submitted, one challenge is getting a 50% completion rate, another about 75%.

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress". There is a somewhat religious mantra which is apt, and includes words to the effect of, "________ (insert Deity of choice) grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change". Since Groundspeak elected to remove ownership/control over challenges, don't get worked up over how some folks choose to log them. Create the best challenges you can, and accept that many folks will do them as intended, enjoying the experience, whilst others will do them contrary to how you intended, but will still enjoy the experience.

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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress". There is a somewhat religious mantra which is apt, and includes words to the effect of, "________ (insert Deity of choice) grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change". Since Groundspeak elected to remove ownership/control over challenges, don't get worked up over how some folks choose to log them. Create the best challenges you can, and accept that many folks will do them as intended, enjoying the experience, whilst others will do them contrary to how you intended, but will still enjoy the experience.

 

AMEN! I like the way they are, without a owner. I got one challenge that I created and I enjoy the logs and pictures. Gotta take the bad with the good. I am not going to let cheaters get me all worked up.

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We haven't done any challenges yet however it's the armchair geocachers that have our Goat. We've done a series where there were 30 caches and the previous logger to ours NEVER actually signed the log. It seems as though he checked what previous cachers logged on the GC'g site and BS'd his own version of the find, only very short and sweet. "easy, good hide TFTC". On our own series of 15 caches in a 2 mi stretch, he's logged them as found and after checking all the logs, NOT A SINGLE SIGNATURE on the log sheet. We just did 6 caches in a park, 5 of which were recently found by this same person on the GC'g site but NO SIGNATURE on the log sheet again. This individual has THOUSANDS of finds, but are they REAL??????. Route 66 series, in southern CA has 800 caches and this was done by this same individual. Did he even leave NY.???????

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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress". There is a somewhat religious mantra which is apt, and includes words to the effect of, "________ (insert Deity of choice) grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change". Since Groundspeak elected to remove ownership/control over challenges, don't get worked up over how some folks choose to log them. Create the best challenges you can, and accept that many folks will do them as intended, enjoying the experience, whilst others will do them contrary to how you intended, but will still enjoy the experience.

 

I'm not 'all worked up about it'. If you read my original post, I say 'amusing phenomon' and put 2 LOLs. I just want to discuss, that's OK, right? I"m sure we can have a nice discussion without name-calling.

Edited by The_Incredibles_
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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress".

 

I do not feel that using the term "control freak" in your posting does fit well to this type of message.

 

Cezanne

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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress".

 

I do not feel that using the term "control freak" in your posting does fit well to this type of message.

 

Cezanne

 

Unfortunately, I've noticed alot of name-calling and sarcastic comments on this forum. This sort of thing would never happen in another forum I frequent. People are respectful. Not coindentally, that forum is busier than this one, even though this is a worldwide forum and the other one is just a local forum. People need to feel like they won't get attacked when they post. Or the whole forum suffers.

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I"ve got challenge that asks people to hike up a mountain and take a photo of yourself at the top.----- and one clever couple today drove up to the top and hiked down (after taking a photo of themselves at the top, LOL).

 

I don't do challenges, though I am glad they are there for those that want them.

 

That being said, if I did a challenge, or a geocache that was on a mountain I could either climb or drive up, I would drive up. At my age hiking is getting harder, I would save the tough hike for one that could not be done any other way.

 

There are plenty of mountains that the top can't be reached by any other means than climbing. I love driving the mountain roads. Therefore I will drive the ones I can and save the hikes for those that can't be driven. :D :D B)

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"Don't stress"

I do not feel that using the term "control freak" in your posting does fit well to this type of message.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the relationship between being a control freak, and being stressed about things that are beyond your control? I mention this because, from here in the cheap seats, the causality is crystal clear. So clear, in fact, that the terms often run hand in hand.

 

People are respectful.

Perhaps the fear of attack you mention comes from opening posts utilizing passive/aggressive techniques to question the intelligence of other players, with snarky terms such as "one clever couple"? Or is that considered respectful where you come from?

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Why create a challenge if you don't care if anybody does it?

Contrary to interpretations, that is, in no way, what I am suggesting. The message I was trying to convey is, "Don't stress".

 

I do not feel that using the term "control freak" in your posting does fit well to this type of message.

 

Cezanne

 

Unfortunately, I've noticed alot of name-calling and sarcastic comments on this forum. This sort of thing would never happen in another forum I frequent. People are respectful. Not coindentally, that forum is busier than this one, even though this is a worldwide forum and the other one is just a local forum. People need to feel like they won't get attacked when they post. Or the whole forum suffers.

 

People here are respectful since I dont let them get under my skin.

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geocaches can also be logged without being found. WHO CARES?

in any game there will always be cheaters.

 

I'm sure there are people who care. When it comes to Geocaches, Groundspeak cares enough to give Cache Owners the ability to delete logs and (among other things) tells them to delete logs that appear to be bogus. Challenges don't have owners so don't have anyone to delete bogus logs. Since that is not likely to change, it is a very good thing that Challenges are not counted in your total finds.

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geocaches can also be logged without being found. WHO CARES?

in any game there will always be cheaters.

 

I'm sure there are people who care. When it comes to Geocaches, Groundspeak cares enough to give Cache Owners the ability to delete logs and (among other things) tells them to delete logs that appear to be bogus. Challenges don't have owners so don't have anyone to delete bogus logs. Since that is not likely to change, it is a very good thing that Challenges are not counted in your total finds.

Sure there are people who believe that "bogus" means that the finder didn't sign the physical log. However Groundspeak has never said what they mean by bogus.

 

It's just as likely that they are concerned by the use of the online logging capability to post spam or other off-topic material. The online log is supposed to be for sharing your geoacaching experience, but on the internet people use logs and comments to spam or to create false links to influence search engine results. We had a example this week in this forum of a bot that created innocuous comments in threads that appeared to be legitimate posts, but which had a hidden link embedded in the post.

 

In the case of physical caches there is also some concern about so called couch potato logs. A apparent find when nobody actually looked for a cache can give a false impression about the state of cache. People might look for a cache that would otherwise appear to be missing or a cache owner might forgo needed maintenance because someone logged it as found when they didn't actually look for the cache. Groundspeak has also come out against couch potato logs on grandfathered virtual caches. Here they have indicated that couch potato logging is not geocaching so use of the log to answer questions or post pictures of a virtual cache you didn't actually visit is deemed an abuse of the online log.

 

The removal of ownership on challenges and thus the inability of challenge creators to monitor the logs is probably due in part to cache owners who insisted on deleting logs which in Groundspeak's opinion were not bogus. If you see logs that are spam or off topic (including someone obviously not completing the challenge), you can always flag it. Apparently, if flagged enough time these logs will be removed. There is no need for creators to have this ability, and if they did, there is little doubt that some would abuse this capability.

 

It was abuse of the ability to delete cache logs that resulted in the ALR guidelines be changed. Now cache owners cannot arbitrarily delete cache logs. Groundspeak decided that if a cacher has signed the physical cache log they must be allowed to log a find. Cache owners can and should still delete spam and offensive posts, and are allowed to delete logs they consider to be spoilers as well; but if the cache owner deletes logs for arbitrary reasons now, Groundspeak will restore the log and probably lock the cache page so the owner cannot delete it again.

 

One thing I'm almost sure of is that reason challenges are not "counted" has nothing to do with cache owners being able to delete found logs but challenge creators not being able to delete completion logs. The find count is not a score that is validated by cache owners enforcing some arbitrary definition of a find. "There is no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there is no reason to get your knickers in a twist over anyone else's definition of a find."

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