Three Cache Monte by any other name

[+niraD]

I am aware of two "optimizations" used on numbers run trails like the ET Highway trail or the Route 66 trail:

 

Leapfrogging - a large team divides; the groups alternate caches, each finding only some of the caches (every other one with 2 groups, every third one with 3 groups, etc.) but logging them all online

 

Three Cache Monte - each cache is replaced with a similar container containing a pre-signed log; the log in the original container is signed en route to the next cache, where it is used as the replacement container

 

The term "leapfrogging" seems pretty well accepted. Even those who practice the technique use the term.

 

The term "three cache monte" is used by critics of the technique, but is rejected as pejorative by those who practice it.

 

So, what is a generally accepted term for the three cache monte technique? A few terms I've heard are:

Cache Shuffling

Swap and Drop

Catch & Release (or Cache & Release?)

Log Rolling

 

But are any of these generally accepted? If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

[+ChileHead]

So, what is a generally accepted term for the three cache monte technique? A few terms I've heard are:

 

The term I use is "lame"

[+ChileHead]

Leapfrogging - a large team divides; the groups alternate caches, each finding only some of the caches (every other one with 2 groups, every third one with 3 groups, etc.) but logging them all online

 

I'm amazed people actually claim finds this way. Find 1/2, 1/3, or even less of the series and claim finds on everything? Really? And they are proud about their numbers?

 

Three Cache Monte - each cache is replaced with a similar container containing a pre-signed log; the log in the original container is signed en route to the next cache, where it is used as the replacement container

 

At least this one you are physically going to each cache location, unlike the first method. Still, I find the practice revolting.

[+captnemo]

These are just names to justify and attempt to make a boring power trail interesting.

[+The_Wagners]

We use "cheesy"

[+lamoracke]

whatever they are, they are arguably sad justifications for folks to get #s up even faster when really, a power trail by its own definition is already fast in its design.

 

Why not bring 100 cars and be done with it in 1 hour?

 

(hence, you can tell that in my opinion, am not accepting of the whole thing)

Edited September 11, 2011 by lamoracke

[+alienbogey]

I've never heard of it before but 'lame' comes to mind, along with some other descriptive words.

 

As a cache owner, I'd be seriously annoyed if someone took my cache container/log and replaced it with another, as described in 3 Cache Monte.

[+Keelmann And Cici]

I leave comments on the general practice to others, but I do think taking the cache and replacing with a pre signed cache crosses a bad line. I don't think there's ever a justification to take a cache that doesn't belong to you.

[+niraD]

As a cache owner, I'd be seriously annoyed if someone took my cache container/log and replaced it with another, as described in 3 Cache Monte.

I absolutely agree. And for the record, I think the three cache monte is no longer "real geocaching" since a key part of "real geocaching" should be "Sign the logbook and return the geocache to its original location." And if it is done without permission from the cache owners, then it is a form of vandalism.

 

But all that is beside the point, and all that is off-topic in this thread.

 

The point is, this technique is accepted on certain numbers run trails. The cache owners allow it, and even encourage it.

 

What term(s) do they use to describe this technique? What term(s) do those who practice the technique use to describe it?

[+tozainamboku]

If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

Knickers twisters because using any of these techniques is sure to get someone else's knickers in a twist.

[AZcachemeister]

I think 'abomination' pretty well covers it.

 

Sounds about as justifiable as posting XXXX 'Found It' logs on my own cache.

 

I flew over it on my flight from Phoenix to Portland...I'm logging it!

[+niraD]

Thanks everyone, but "lame", "abomination", "knickers twisting", "cheesy", etc. describe too many other things.

 

I'm looking for a term that is more specific, that refers only to this particular "optimization" used on numbers run trails. Furthermore, I'm looking for a term that practitioners of this "optimization" use when they discuss it among themselves.

[Narcosynthesis]

People are free to do it as they like - if they want to do a trail as a team, then they are welcome to. It makes no difference to my life whatsoever if they get however many hundred caches in one day, I play the game entirely differently...

 

The one thing I will object to is the thought of moving logbooks - to move the first into the second, second into the third and so on means cache one has no log book any more, until you go and replace it. A couple of people try and do the same trail on the same day and you are left with a mess of out of order and missing logbooks.

[+dfx]

I call it "cheating".

 

Another term that comes to mind is "vandalism"

[+t4e]

 

As a cache owner, I'd be seriously annoyed if someone took my cache container/log and replaced it with another, as described in 3 Cache Monte.

 

not if you placed 1000 film canisters in a row

[+briansnat]

So, what is a generally accepted term for the three cache monte technique? A few terms I've heard are:

 

The term I use is "lame"

 

I'm not sure what I'd call it, but geocaching is not a name I'd use.

[+Don_J]

Thanks everyone, but "lame", "abomination", "knickers twisting", "cheesy", etc. describe too many other things.

 

I'm looking for a term that is more specific, that refers only to this particular "optimization" used on numbers run trails. Furthermore, I'm looking for a term that practitioners of this "optimization" use when they discuss it among themselves.

 

Unfortunately, the type of people you are trying to get your answer from, generally don't frequent the forums. Even if they did, why wade in just to be insulted? I'm curious for the answer also. Too bad that everyone else here feels compelled to sabotage your thread.

 

My friends who did it on the original ET trail simply called it "cache moving", but that was a year ago before the practice really caught on, so it really didn't have a name.

[+BlueDeuce]

People are free to do it as they like - if they want to do a trail as a team, then they are welcome to. It makes no difference to my life whatsoever if they get however many hundred caches in one day, I play the game entirely differently...

 

The one thing I will object to is the thought of moving logbooks - to move the first into the second, second into the third and so on means cache one has no log book any more, until you go and replace it. A couple of people try and do the same trail on the same day and you are left with a mess of out of order and missing logbooks.

 

No people are not free to do as they like. You think they can just pick up my cache and replace it with another? I'll call that Not Found and you will compensate me.

Edited September 11, 2011 by BlueDeuce

[+BlueDeuce]

Thanks everyone, but "lame", "abomination", "knickers twisting", "cheesy", etc. describe too many other things.

 

I'm looking for a term that is more specific, that refers only to this particular "optimization" used on numbers run trails. Furthermore, I'm looking for a term that practitioners of this "optimization" use when they discuss it among themselves.

 

I'd have to say that people who participate would prefer a bit of the pejorative. I mean you know that it is riding the edge.

 

You tell me what it's like. Is it a shell game or a shuffle.

[+jelong]

I ran into that today on a power trail.

Each container had a presigned log along with the original and the container were just thrown on the ground

and not replaced as originally intended

[+niraD]

I'm curious for the answer also. Too bad that everyone else here feels compelled to sabotage your thread.

Thanks.

 

My friends who did it on the original ET trail simply called it "cache moving", but that was a year ago before the practice really caught on, so it really didn't have a name.

Ah, yet another name. I don't recall hearing that one before. Which gives us:

 

Cache Moving

Cache Shuffling

Catch & Release (or Cache & Release?)

Log Rolling

Swap and Drop

[+popokiiti]

If that is being done, I don't consider it a true power trail. Just my thought on the subject....

[knowschad]

If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

Knickers twisters because using any of these techniques is sure to get someone else's knickers in a twist.

 

Your 'puritanism" argument is not going to work for me here. This sort of stuff totally changes the game, turning it into a game that many of us are not interested in. Can we still play the game as we used to? Sure we can. But I refuse to lay down and say that we should not protect the ethics that we believe it just because some people like to post ice-cream eating frogs. These people should be playing Munzee instead.

[+briansnat]

If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

Knickers twisters because using any of these techniques is sure to get someone else's knickers in a twist.

 

Your 'puritanism" argument is not going to work for me here. This sort of stuff totally changes the game, turning it into a game that many of us are not interested in. Can we still play the game as we used to? Sure we can. But I refuse to lay down and say that we should not protect the ethics that we believe it just because some people like to post ice-cream eating frogs. These people should be playing Munzee instead.

 

Yesiree Bob!

[+Fianccetto]

We use "cheesy"

 

Cheese rolling?

 

It sounds like cheating to me.

[+The_Wagners]

We use "cheesy"

I liked the cheeseball thread you posted too in the 990 caches in a day thread! In fact, I just ordered a "Team Cheesball90210" stamp for our trip to the Route 66 trail in November. We are working on a shirt and might do a coin. The artwork will have a the route shield with a torn up log smashed by a frog or something like that. I like these "Power Trails and the people that do them are evil" "holier than thou" and "were better than them" forum threads. It's great motivation and when we were out on ET talk of the forum bashing regarding power trails and the comments made about people that place or do trails like in this thread always brought a laugh!

 

It's pretty comical reading sometimes and luckily when this one goes away someone else will post another!

 

Thin skinned, eh? Delicate sensibilities? I suppose if you cannot handle others' opinions perhaps you shouldn't read them? Just a thought.

[+niraD]

I just ordered a "Team Cheesball90210" stamp for our trip to the Route 66 trail in November.

So what do you call the technique being discussed? Cache Moving? Cache Shuffling? Log Rolling? Something else?

[knowschad]

We called it whatever the ET Highway cache owners called it, it was their suggestion. I do know one guy at the event was complaining to anyone that would listen about "Bait and Switch" logging - that continued exchange had us laughing for awhile.

 

Good for you guys. Laughing at those with guts enough to stand up for their convictions in a crowd of those that disagree with them deserve to be laughed at. I'm glad to see that you brought him down to size.

[+The_Wagners]

Since "cheesy" has had such a warm reception, here's another that seems fitting:

 

"Smoke and Mirrors Caching"

 

[+dfx]

I just ordered a "Team Cheesball90210" stamp for our trip to the Route 66 trail in November.

So what do you call the technique being discussed? Cache Moving? Cache Shuffling? Log Rolling? Something else?

 

How about "cheeseballing"?

[AZcachemeister]

'Pink Air*' caching!

 

*'Pink Air' is akin to 'blowing smoke up your A**'.

 

"You signed all those logs? Sounds like Pink Air to me."

[knowschad]

We called it whatever the ET Highway cache owners called it, it was their suggestion. I do know one guy at the event was complaining to anyone that would listen about "Bait and Switch" logging - that continued exchange had us laughing for awhile.

 

Good for you guys. Laughing at those with guts enough to stand up for their convictions in a crowd of those that disagree with them deserve to be laughed at. I'm glad to see that you brought him down to size.

Yeah made us feel awesome dude!! just like it must feel for someone that doesn't like an aspect of geocaching or the way others play the game and they and you go in the forums and ridicule the way others play the game. The topic of this thread is exactly that! We don't like the way people did that dadgum power trail ( which has been covered ad nauseum) so let's assign their evil methods a name! Three Card Monte, Log Rolling, one guy even called it Vandalism! Vandalism really? Wow that'll bring those guys down to size! Now thats courage!

Are you making the assumption that I don't like the power-caching aspect of geocaching? Because I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about the attitude projected in your post, and was saying nothing about my opinion of power-caching. Please don't read stuff into my opinion of your intimidation tactics that I didn't intend.

[+Don_J]

We called it whatever the ET Highway cache owners called it, it was their suggestion. I do know one guy at the event was complaining to anyone that would listen about "Bait and Switch" logging - that continued exchange had us laughing for awhile.

 

Good for you guys. Laughing at those with guts enough to stand up for their convictions in a crowd of those that disagree with them deserve to be laughed at. I'm glad to see that you brought him down to size.

Yeah made us feel awesome dude!! just like it must feel for someone that doesn't like an aspect of geocaching or the way others play the game and they and you go in the forums and ridicule the way others play the game. The topic of this thread is exactly that! We don't like the way people did that dadgum power trail ( which has been covered ad nauseum) so let's assign their evil methods a name! Three Card Monte, Log Rolling, one guy even called it Vandalism! Vandalism really? Wow that'll bring those guys down to size! Now thats courage!

 

That was not the topic of the thread at all. The topic was a specific question. The OP asked what the people that approve of the method, call it. It's unfortunate that only those that disapprove of it responded and did so in a negative way.

[knowschad]

We called it whatever the ET Highway cache owners called it, it was their suggestion. I do know one guy at the event was complaining to anyone that would listen about "Bait and Switch" logging - that continued exchange had us laughing for awhile.

 

Good for you guys. Laughing at those with guts enough to stand up for their convictions in a crowd of those that disagree with them deserve to be laughed at. I'm glad to see that you brought him down to size.

Yeah made us feel awesome dude!! just like it must feel for someone that doesn't like an aspect of geocaching or the way others play the game and they and you go in the forums and ridicule the way others play the game. The topic of this thread is exactly that! We don't like the way people did that dadgum power trail ( which has been covered ad nauseum) so let's assign their evil methods a name! Three Card Monte, Log Rolling, one guy even called it Vandalism! Vandalism really? Wow that'll bring those guys down to size! Now thats courage!

Are you making the assumption that I don't like the power-caching aspect of geocaching? Because I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about the attitude projected in your post, and was saying nothing about my opinion of power-caching. Please don't read stuff into my opinion of your intimidation tactics that I didn't intend.

Intimidation tactics? You don't like my comment so you say I'm intimidating you - WOW! That is awesome, now that really brought me down to size! Another reason to come here!

No... I said that you and your cronies were intimidating the guy that was trying to get you all to rethink what he was calling "Bait and Switch" logging by laughing at him. I never said that I was intimidated.

[+briansnat]

We called it whatever the ET Highway cache owners called it, it was their suggestion. I do know one guy at the event was complaining to anyone that would listen about "Bait and Switch" logging - that continued exchange had us laughing for awhile.

 

Good for you guys. Laughing at those with guts enough to stand up for their convictions in a crowd of those that disagree with them deserve to be laughed at. I'm glad to see that you brought him down to size.

Yeah made us feel awesome dude!! just like it must feel for someone that doesn't like an aspect of geocaching or the way others play the game and they and you go in the forums and ridicule the way others play the game. The topic of this thread is exactly that! We don't like the way people did that dadgum power trail ( which has been covered ad nauseum) so let's assign their evil methods a name! Three Card Monte, Log Rolling, one guy even called it Vandalism! Vandalism really? Wow that'll bring those guys down to size! Now thats courage!

 

That was not the topic of the thread at all. The topic was a specific question. The OP asked what the people that approve of the method, call it. It's unfortunate that only those that disapprove of it responded and did so in a negative way.

 

If only people who approved of the methods answered it would have been a very short thread.

[+ArcherDragoon]

If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

Knickers twisters because using any of these techniques is sure to get someone else's knickers in a twist.

I don't care who you are...that is funny right there...

[+ArcherDragoon]

If not, then is there some other term that is generally accepted?

Knickers twisters because using any of these techniques is sure to get someone else's knickers in a twist.

 

Your 'puritanism" argument is not going to work for me here. This sort of stuff totally changes the game, turning it into a game that many of us are not interested in. Can we still play the game as we used to? Sure we can. But I refuse to lay down and say that we should not protect the ethics that we believe it just because some people like to post ice-cream eating frogs. These people should be playing Munzee instead.

Ok...that was funny too...I just spit coffee all over my computer screen...

[+niraD]

Yeah made us feel awesome dude!! just like it must feel for someone that doesn't like an aspect of geocaching or the way others play the game and they and you go in the forums and ridicule the way others play the game. The topic of this thread is exactly that!

No, that is not the topic of this thread.

 

We don't like the way people did that dadgum power trail ( which has been covered ad nauseum) so let's assign their evil methods a name! Three Card Monte, Log Rolling, one guy even called it Vandalism! Vandalism really?

Please reread what I wrote. I said that if it is done without permission from the cache owners, then it is a form of vandalism. That is clearly not the case on the ET Highway trail, the Route 66 trail, and a few others.

 

And I acknowledge that Three Cache Monte and Bait & Switch are pejorative terms, not terms used by those who practice the technique. (Log Rolling, on the other hand, was used by one person who practiced the technique, but I heard it third-hand, and I haven't heard any other references to it.)

 

So, back on topic, since you seem to be one of the folks who practice this technique:

 

What do you call this technique? What do others who practice it call it?

 

Imagine that you're discussing the logistics of your upcoming numbers run with someone else. How would you fill in the blank: "We do [or don't do] leapfrogging. Also, we do ________________ when we're on numbers run trails that allow it."

 

That's really what I want to know, and why I started this thread.

[+jacb8s]

Obviously, these "super cachers" don't find all the caches they say they do. They log finds en masse that were found by others. There is simply no way to find as many as some of the stats say and still eat and sleep (and work as some claim they do). If you didn't ink the log, you didn't find the cache and you shouldn't have logged it... simple as that.

[+CanadianRockies]

If you didn't ink the log, you didn't find the cache and you shouldn't have logged it... simple as that.

Ah, but even that isn't so simple. What is "the" log? Those employing the "Three Cache Monte" method do visit every cache and ink a log. But they take the log from one cache and leave it at another cache along the power trail.

 

If "the" log is the one currently in the cache and must remain in the cache, then what about situations where people remove log sheets that are completely full and replace them with empty log sheets. I've been "guilty" of that on a number of occasions and have no qualms logging them as finds.

 

But I've never done the "Three Cache Monte."

[+niraD]

If you didn't ink the log, you didn't find the cache and you shouldn't have logged it... simple as that.

Sure, when I'm caching by myself, I ink every log. But when I'm caching with a group, I don't always sign my own name on the log. Sometimes someone else signs my name for me while I trade for signature items or bring up the next cache on the device. Sometimes someone else signs an informal team name on behalf of everyone in the group. Sometimes I'm the one who signs the informal team name. This is normal group caching practice as far as I can tell.

 

I'm not going to hold people on numbers runs to a higher standard than people on normal group geocaching trips.

[+narcissa]

Cache vandalism is the correct term.

[+J Grouchy]

Leapfrogging - a large team divides; the groups alternate caches, each finding only some of the caches (every other one with 2 groups, every third one with 3 groups, etc.) but logging them all online

 

I'm amazed people actually claim finds this way. Find 1/2, 1/3, or even less of the series and claim finds on everything? Really? And they are proud about their numbers?

 

 

How about finding the first in a power trail and then just logging a find on all the rest? How is that any worse than only technically finding 1/2 or 1/3 of them? Is there an acceptable line even the most die-hard of the PT cachers won't cross?

[+NeverSummer]

So, what is a generally accepted term for the three cache monte technique? A few terms I've heard are:

 

The term I use is "lame"

Group power caching, where you steal the original container and place it elsewhere.

[+Roman!]

Three cache monte is used on PTs such as E.T. Highway. If it takes 10 seconds to open/sign/clise a cache over the course of the trail by using three cache monte (which doesn't break any rules and is accepted by the COs) you'd save 25,000 seconds or 416 2/3 minutes or just under 7 hours of burning gas so I'd call three cache monte as being environmental friendly.

[+NeverSummer]

Three cache monte is used on PTs such as E.T. Highway. If it takes 10 seconds to open/sign/clise a cache over the course of the trail by using three cache monte (which doesn't break any rules and is accepted by the COs) you'd save 25,000 seconds or 416 2/3 minutes or just under 7 hours of burning gas so I'd call three cache monte as being environmental friendly.

So is walking.

[+Roman!]

Three cache monte is used on PTs such as E.T. Highway. If it takes 10 seconds to open/sign/clise a cache over the course of the trail by using three cache monte (which doesn't break any rules and is accepted by the COs) you'd save 25,000 seconds or 416 2/3 minutes or just under 7 hours of burning gas so I'd call three cache monte as being environmental friendly.

So is walking.

 

Can't walk 250 miles in the desert but I'd get I find more caches/gallon than you.

[+NeverSummer]

Three cache monte is used on PTs such as E.T. Highway. If it takes 10 seconds to open/sign/clise a cache over the course of the trail by using three cache monte (which doesn't break any rules and is accepted by the COs) you'd save 25,000 seconds or 416 2/3 minutes or just under 7 hours of burning gas so I'd call three cache monte as being environmental friendly.

So is walking.

 

Can't walk 250 miles in the desert but I'd get I find more caches/gallon than you.

I don't drink fossil fuels, and human respiration has drastically less... Ah, nevermind.

[+tallglenn]

I've done the ET Highway and most of Route 66, plus many other PTs across the country. I love them and I'd do them all over again if I ever ran out of caches to find. "Three Card Monte" and "Leapfrogging" are confusing terms to me - it implies you skipped every third cache, or leaped over every other cache. I prefer "Swap & Drop". I am picking up, signing, and returning a log to each site. The cache owners are unable to check 2000 caches for signatures, so does it really matter which log is in which site? The CO doesn't expect it, so why would outsiders? Even those too cool to ever go near a PT preach the proper technique. The COs trust us to be honest about our finds. Those who aren't honest will know their finds are a lie and lose motivation to geocache anymore. I signed every freaking log, and someone on a team of four might've only found 1/4, but I really don't give a crap about anyone else's technique or numbers. I don't know why this is so tediously argued about here.

[+niraD]

Cache vandalism is the correct term.

Well, yes, when the CO does not accept the use of the three cache monte on his/her geocache(s), it absolutely is cache vandalism.

 

But even though I don't consider the practice to be geocaching (it's that whole "return the geocache to its original location" thing), I don't see how it can be considered cache vandalism when the CO accepts and even encourages the practice. And honestly, I didn't start this thread to debate the merits of the practice. I started it to find out what its practitioners call it.

 

 

"Three Card Monte" and "Leapfrogging" are confusing terms to me - it implies you skipped every third cache, or leaped over every other cache.

Well, in "leapfrogging", you are leaping over every other cache. The term comes from a team dividing into two vehicles, with the people in one vehicle finding the odd-numbered caches in the series, and those in the other vehicle finding the even-numbered caches in the series. The two vehicles are likely to pass each other repeatedly, like a game of leapfrog continuing down the numbers run trail.

 

The term "three cache monte" doesn't refer to skipping every third cache. It refers to the con game (three card monte) where the mark loses the bet because he can't find a specified card. When the three cache monte is used, no one will be able to find the original log/container for any given cache in a numbers run trail.

 

I prefer "Swap & Drop".

And we're back on topic. Thanks.

 

So that's a vote for "Swap & Drop".