Best coordinates ever.

[legisine]

Me, Coldgears, WCbill are going to be hiding a cache with the best coordinates ever.

 

We have

 

1 Ipod touch

1 Android

1 Windows Phone 7

1 Magellan Explorist GC

1 Iphone

1 Cobra GPS 1000

 

 

Sadly, the Cobra is not with us at the moment of filming this video, also, the Windows Phone 7 was used for filming.

 

Look for the sequel in coming days with the cobra in the video, and a real camera used for filming so WP7 will be in the video.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Wont it just be a jumble of the errors of all the units?

And do iPods have GPS?

Edited August 1, 2011 by John in Valley Forge

[+mpilchfamily]

Do you plan to average the readings from all the units? You should know that the cords to an actual location will fluctuate a little due to the position of the satellites themselves. So you may get the perfect reading for that day but a week later if you head back it could be a few feet off. Plus various environmental factors can distort the signal not to mention placment og the GPSr in each device can cause each device to read differently. But good luck with the experiment.

[knowschad]

Here is a picture of all of that awesome equipment, ready to go:

 

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

Had to turn the volume up to make sure I heard what I heard....

 

Just what is a Maglin? Is that anything like a Magellan (like the explorer of wooden sailing ship days)?

 

Now here is the real question(s) re: "Best coordinates ever"....

 

How do you determine which device is going to provide the "best"? All of the devices I saw were all consumer-grade items, thus not meant (cost-wise) to provide super-accurate results -- only acceptably accurate results.

 

Should all or some of the devices not agree on the coords (quite likely), which ones are going to determine the "best" coords?

 

It seems that your attempt may well simply produce "argumentative" results -- much like the proverbial +/- 20' circle of Ground Zero.

[+Panther&Pine]

 

So far the best coords I've encountered where on a cache here in town placed by someone with a Garmin Legend. I 'zeroed out', set myGPS down, spent ages looking for the darn cache. It was directly under my GPS!

[+Vater_Araignee]

It seems that your attempt may well simply produce "argumentative" results -- much like the proverbial +/- 20' circle of Ground Zero.

Yup yup.

This thread reminds me. It is about time I recheck the coords on my caches for potential updating.

[knowschad]

 

So far the best coords I've encountered where on a cache here in town placed by someone with a Garmin Legend. I 'zeroed out', set myGPS down, spent ages looking for the darn cache. It was directly under my GPS!

 

Once I went back and finally found my very first DNF, I realized that I had set my day pack right on top of it.

[+mpilchfamily]

What really diferentiates the pro grade from the consumer grade? Is it just the accuracy of the internal clock? I'm pretty sure i remember that a big factor in an accurate reading, short of having a good signal from all 8-12 sats, is having a very accurate clock. Not to mention the ability to run the calculation rather fast.

[knowschad]

I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but that lineup of GPS devices giving the "Best Coordinates Ever" is like a room full of monkies trying to write Shakespeare.

[+Spraginator]

What really diferentiates the pro grade from the consumer grade? Is it just the accuracy of the internal clock? I'm pretty sure i remember that a big factor in an accurate reading, short of having a good signal from all 8-12 sats, is having a very accurate clock. Not to mention the ability to run the calculation rather fast.

 

It's not the accuracy of the clock. The on board clock doesn't matter at all. The unit needs to know what time it is, but that comes from the satellites. This is why you need 4 satellites instead of three, so the GPS solves 4 simultaneous equations for 4 variables (x,y,z,time). It would be impossible to put a clock accurate enough in any handheld (or mobile for that matter) GPS receiver.

 

I do not know exactly what sets the professional units apart.

[+addisonbr]

I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but that lineup of GPS devices giving the "Best Coordinates Ever" is like a room full of monkies trying to write Shakespeare.

It was the best of times, it was the *blurst* of times?!?!?

Edited August 1, 2011 by addisonbr

[+Vater_Araignee]

I haven't been able to watch the video yet, but that lineup of GPS devices giving the "Best Coordinates Ever" is like a room full of monkies trying to write Shakespeare.

True the monkeys could eventually do it.

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically there is the possibility that they could (yet doubtful) eventually acquire extremely accurate coords but if they do then chances are GS wont be displaying them to us.

[+mpilchfamily]

Hmm, i thought it had to know what time the signal was sent and how long that signal took to be received by the GPSr. Therefore an accurate clock was needed to be able to count the fractions of a second involved.

[+addisonbr]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

What really diferentiates the pro grade from the consumer grade? Is it just the accuracy of the internal clock? I'm pretty sure i remember that a big factor in an accurate reading, short of having a good signal from all 8-12 sats, is having a very accurate clock. Not to mention the ability to run the calculation rather fast.

Can't say that I know exactly what the difference are between consumer-grade, professional-grade or military-grade (aside from cost of the items -- BIG difference, there).

I am pretty sure, however, that a smart phone GPS chip won't guide a Tomahawk missile through a particular window launched from 400 miles away, nor do many surveyors use a hand-held (as we know it) to define borders or property lines.

[+GeoBain]

Do you plan to average the readings from all the units?

 

No. He will post the coordinates given by each device. Then depending on what gps you own, you can choose the coordinates that work best for your device.

[knowschad]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

 

What he said. Wait, what?

[+SwineFlew]

The topic line just gave me a headache.

[knowschad]

What really diferentiates the pro grade from the consumer grade? Is it just the accuracy of the internal clock? I'm pretty sure i remember that a big factor in an accurate reading, short of having a good signal from all 8-12 sats, is having a very accurate clock. Not to mention the ability to run the calculation rather fast.

Can't say that I know exactly what the difference are between consumer-grade, professional-grade or military-grade (aside from cost of the items -- BIG difference, there).

I am pretty sure, however, that a smart phone GPS chip won't guide a Tomahawk missile through a particular window launched from 400 miles away, nor do many surveyors use a hand-held (as we know it) to define borders or property lines.

 

I don't pretend to know, either, but this website author at least sounds like he knows what he's talking about: http://www.forestpal.com/GPS.html

[+mpilchfamily]

As an Operation Specialist in the Navy (1998-2002) i had to use GPS to help monitor the ship's position on charts in CIC. But we where never really give any training on GPS other then this is how you mark those cords on the chart. We got all sorts of training on radar fundamentals but not GPS fundamentals.

[+Gitchee-Gummee]

I don't pretend to know, either, but this website author at least sounds like he knows what he's talking about: http://www.forestpal.com/GPS.html

 

Pretty impression compilation of info there.

[+John in Valley Forge]

Here is a picture of all of that awesome equipment, ready to go:

 

 

 

I think the tripods make it more accurate. I cannot hold my GPSr that sill when I am standing in the woods.

 

Oh, and the big dish antenna.

 

Oh yeah, they are painted yellow. That makes everything better.

[Clan Riffster]

We have

 

1 Ipod touch

1 Android

1 Windows Phone 7

1 Magellan Explorist GC

1 Iphone

1 Cobra GPS 1000

Well, this should at least prove entertaining.

Two low end handhelds, three phones and an MP3 player...

If your objective is to create consternation, you'll do fine.

If you want accurate coords, why not add at least one reasonably accurate GPS receiver?

[+mpilchfamily]

Here is a picture of all of that awesome equipment, ready to go:

 

 

 

I think the tripods make it more accurate. I cannot hold my GPSr that sill when I am standing in the woods.

 

Oh, and the big dish antenna.

 

Oh yeah, they are painted yellow. That makes everything better.

No bacon makes everything better. LOL

[knowschad]

Here is a picture of all of that awesome equipment, ready to go:

 

 

 

I think the tripods make it more accurate. I cannot hold my GPSr that sill when I am standing in the woods.

 

Oh, and the big dish antenna.

 

Oh yeah, they are painted yellow. That makes everything better.

No bacon makes everything better. LOL

Like this?

[+Vater_Araignee]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

~~edit to clarify~~~

Edited August 1, 2011 by Vater_Araignee

[+addisonbr]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

~~edit to clarify~~~

Ah, yes. It is true that GS only displays up to three decimal points, and will round.

 

I thought you meant that GS was intentionally scrambling the data, akin to how they used to display caches in Google Earth.

[knowschad]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

~~edit to clarify~~~

 

What GPS do you use that has that much precision? Every one I've ever used only goes to the thousanths. Any rounding is done by the GPS itself.

[+Markwell]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

OK - here we go. The problem is the definitions of accuracy and precision.

 

Accuracy has to do with whether the number is right or not.

Precision has to do with how many decimal points to which you take the number.

What needs to happen is a balance between the two.

 

My son was born October 4, 1995 at 12:03 AM CST

He's a teenager

He's fifteen years old

He's 15.8 years old

He's 5780.558 days old.

 

Each level is more precise. But they are all accurate. How accurate does it need to be?

Depends on who wants to know. Are we...

...going to the movies?

...applying for a learner's permit to drive?

...applying for a job?

...applying for the Boy Scouts?

 

Let's say applying for the Boy Scouts. "Teenager" isn't the best answer because that could be anywhere from 13 to 19 - and those are big swings could make him ineligible (once you turn 18, you can't be in Boy Scouts, but you can be a Venture Scout). Most of the time, even on an official application of sorts, knowing that he's 15.8 years old is too precise, but it's nice to know that he's closer to 16 than 15. That would make a difference in applying for a job or a learner's permit.

 

So how precise should numbers go? That's where significant digits come in: numbers for which the precision gives you useful information. Your example of the different between N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615 and N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 shows a difference of 3.795 feet *. The store-bought GPS units are only accurate to about 30 feet. The rounding of the digits is not significant enough to give you a better location. If it were, the GPS companies would allow you to enter seven or even eight digits beyond the numbers you see on Geocaching.com. Changing the coordinates on your GPS from N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615 to N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 will not give you a better location for which to search for the cache because the unit isn't that accurate.

 

So Groundspeak is not "adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically". They are giving you a number that is precise enough to be accurate.

 

 

*Interesting little side-note. Your post said "A difference of roughly 3.7 ft". The math comes out to 3.795 feet. If that number were rounded correctly, it would be 3.8 feet. That's because just looking at the number in the tenths position is not sufficient to round. You need to look at the number in the hundredths position. In other words, your supposition of "roughly 3.7 feet" was not accurate, because you didn't look at a precise enough number. Had you said "4 feet" you would have been accurate, and probably precise enough to make your point, which of course was inaccurate.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Markwell

[+John in Valley Forge]

We have

 

1 Ipod touch

1 Android

1 Windows Phone 7

1 Magellan Explorist GC

1 Iphone

1 Cobra GPS 1000

Well, this should at least prove entertaining.

Two low end handhelds, three phones and an MP3 player...

If your objective is to create consternation, you'll do fine.

If you want accurate coords, why not add at least one reasonably accurate GPS receiver?

 

Actually though, I have the Explorist GC and find it to be pretty accurate.

The GPSr chip is the same as in all Magellan units, I believe. The difference between models is more in the maps and software.

 

I would love to see sometime an experiment where a lot of people place various brand consumer GPS units on a particular immovable spot and write down the coordinates, just to see how far off they are from each other. Come to think of it, I am going to a EVENT this evening. Maybe I will try to get some people to try it.

[Clan Riffster]

I would love to see sometime an experiment...

I did a similar experiment, though mine was focused on marking a fixed point, (actually 3 fixed points in varying degrees of tree cover), then returning to it at different times of day. Essentially, I wanted to see how well assorted handhelds and phones could return to a location.

[+TerraViators]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

OK - here we go. The problem is the definitions of accuracy and precision.

 

Accuracy has to do with whether the number is right or not.

Precision has to do with how many decimal points to which you take the number.

What needs to happen is a balance between the two.

 

My son was born October 4, 1995 at 12:03 AM CST

He's a teenager

He's fifteen years old

He's 15.8 years old

He's 5780.558 days old.

 

Each level is more precise. But they are all accurate. How accurate does it need to be?

Depends on who wants to know. Are we...

...going to the movies?

...applying for a learner's permit to drive?

...applying for a job?

...applying for the Boy Scouts?

 

Let's say applying for the Boy Scouts. "Teenager" isn't the best answer because that could be anywhere from 13 to 19 - and those are big swings could make him ineligible (once you turn 18, you can't be in Boy Scouts, but you can be a Venture Scout). Most of the time, even on an official application of sorts, knowing that he's 15.8 years old is too precise, but it's nice to know that he's closer to 16 than 15. That would make a difference in applying for a job or a learner's permit.

 

So how precise should numbers go? That's where significant digits come in: numbers for which the precision gives you useful information. Your example of the different between N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615 and N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 shows a difference of 3.795 feet *. The store-bought GPS units are only accurate to about 30 feet. The rounding of the digits is not significant enough to give you a better location. If it were, the GPS companies would allow you to enter seven or even eight digits beyond the numbers you see on Geocaching.com. Changing the coordinates on your GPS from N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615 to N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 will not give you a better location for which to search for the cache because the unit isn't that accurate.

 

So Groundspeak is not "adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically". They are giving you a number that is precise enough to be accurate.

 

 

*Interesting little side-note. Your post said "A difference of roughly 3.7 ft". The math comes out to 3.795 feet. If that number were rounded correctly, it would be 3.8 feet. That's because just looking at the number in the tenths position is not sufficient to round. You need to look at the number in the hundredths position. In other words, your supposition of "roughly 3.7 feet" was not accurate, because you didn't look at a precise enough number. Had you said "4 feet" you would have been accurate, and probably precise enough to make your point, which of course was inaccurate.

Okay, now I have tired head after reading all that Your response is both accurate and precise...and excessive, but funny.

[+lamoracke]

accuracy really only depends if you are doing apples to apples. So many folks are saying, cool, I must be in the right spot because my GPS says I have 10 feet accuracy...but it depends on how the owner hid it. Do they have the same GPS? You could think you are accurate with yours but then someone with a different GPS may disagree. I cant imagine an Ipod or Iphone is even worthy of being considered accurate really compared to other GPS units.

 

I honestly do not know. I have a Garmin 60CSX. I also have an Oregon 450T. I have met some cachers who will talk until they are blue in the face that their phone android GPS is as much or more accurate than either of my two. I personally cannot believe that. However, I just have grown to learn that some CO's hides are all over the map when it comes to accuracy compared to my units, so, I consider accuracy how good yours is vs what the CO has and how they do it....(and then of course forest cover, buildings, etc, etc).

[+Ladybug Kids]

an experiment where a lot of people place various brand consumer GPS units on a particular immovable spot and write down the coordinates, just to see how far off they are from each other. Come to think of it, I am going to a EVENT this evening. Maybe I will try to get some people to try it.

GeocacheAlaska! events routinely feature a GPS "accuracy" contest. The game organizer averages coordinates for a spot for hours before the event and marks it in a way (sometimes using two ropes stretched from trees and then recoiled) that isn't identifiable to the game players. Players are each given a survey flag to initial and they place the flag where they think GZ is. It's interesting to see the spread of answers, though the same people usually finish with the top three to five placements regardless of the brand/model of GPS they are using. They are the cachers who know how to hold their GPS (vertical or horizonal), know how to let the GPS settle, and know how to be patient.

 

Another way to check one's GPS is to find a benchmark with adjusted coordinates.

 

The commercial grade equipment pictured can achieve accuracy to within a couple of centimeters under the right conditions, whereas our handhelds are having a good day with they get within a couple of meters.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Ladybug Kids

[knowschad]

Here's an interesting little article on the accuracy of Smartphone GPSrs: http://mashable.com/2011/03/09/smartphone-gps-accuracy/

[+John in Valley Forge]

I would love to see sometime an experiment...

I did a similar experiment, though mine was focused on marking a fixed point, (actually 3 fixed points in varying degrees of tree cover), then returning to it at different times of day. Essentially, I wanted to see how well assorted handhelds and phones could return to a location.

 

I have done that too, using a tree stump in my front yard and an umbrella stand in the back yard (as reference points that are pretty much non-moving). Surprising how varied the readings can be on different days.

 

May be cool to see how the readings are all at about the same time.

 

 

[cb82]

Here's an interesting little article on the accuracy of Smartphone GPSrs: http://mashable.com/2011/03/09/smartphone-gps-accuracy/

 

In all fairness, most people do not leave the GPS on they're phone turned on when they're not using it. I would care to bet that the majority of the inaccurate positions obtained in the article were probably based on the cell network, which doesn't come close to the performance of the phone with GPS enabled.

[knowschad]

I would love to see sometime an experiment...

I did a similar experiment, though mine was focused on marking a fixed point, (actually 3 fixed points in varying degrees of tree cover), then returning to it at different times of day. Essentially, I wanted to see how well assorted handhelds and phones could return to a location.

 

I have done that too, using a tree stump in my front yard and an umbrella stand in the back yard (as reference points that are pretty much non-moving). Surprising how varied the readings can be on different days.

 

May be cool to see how the readings are all at about the same time.

 

I did that with my 60CSx over a period of three days, several different times of day, each day, and I found the extremes to be off by about 8 feet (16 foot total). I was very pleased and surprised.

[+TomToad]

Considering Groundspeak adds up to 3.5 feet of inaccuracy automatically

Wait, what?

You didn't know that?

If you input N 41 41.7965 W 084 48.3615

GS rounds the last digit to the nearest zero rendering that N 41 41.7970 W 084 48.3620 and drops the zero to display N 41 41.797 W 084 48.362

A difference of roughly 3.7 ft

 

~~edit to clarify~~~

 

What GPS do you use that has that much precision? Every one I've ever used only goes to the thousanths. Any rounding is done by the GPS itself.

My Delorme Earthmate PN-60 displays to the ten thousandth place. It really doesn't do much good though, because the accuracy on the best day and best conditions is about 6-7' which is far greater than what can be measured by that much precision. Typically the accuracy is more like around 10-15'

[+niraD]

Once I went back and finally found my very first DNF, I realized that I had set my day pack right on top of it.

That sounds very familiar. Except for me, it's usually my bicycle. I park my bike near GZ, expand my search radius, give up, get ready to leave, and spot the cache right where I left my bike.

[+rjb43nh]

Spraginator-“It's not the accuracy of the clock. The on board clock doesn't matter at all. The unit needs to know what time it is, but that comes from the satellites. This is why you need 4 satellites instead of three, so the GPS solves 4 simultaneous equations for 4 variables (x,y,z,time). It would be impossible to put a clock accurate enough in any handheld (or mobile for that matter) GPS receiver.”

 

True, the time from the satellite constellation continually updates the time in your handheld to within a small fraction of a second. The satellites actually run on GPS time that doesn’t correct for leapseconds and currently is ahead of UTC (Coordinated Universal Time) by 15 seconds. The received time in UTC is then adjusted to your local time zone and used by your GPS. If you have your GPS inside a building where it cannot receive a signal then it will use the internal clock that will drift over a period of time. Once you receive satellite lock it will sync to the GPS satellites once again.

 

The Trimble Thunderbolt timing GPS receivers I use at home with a fixed antenna on the roof average the position over 24 hours to get a good fix to several decimal places. These are used to get time and frequency accuracy to parts per trillion. Surveying GPS receivers have position accuracy of 5 millimeter.

 

As far as having accurate internal clocks (actually an accurate frequency standard that drives a clock display), in a portable GPS is very possible. The smallest 10Mhz rubidium frequency standard I have is 3.5” square by 0.75” thick and capable of accuracy of parts in 10E-11 so it could be done but where the receiver clock is set to the received signal from the satellites this isn’t necessary.

 

A typical handheld GPS receiver with WAAS enabled will probably be within 10 feet 95% of the time or 15 feet with WAAS not enabled. This is horizontal distance and vertical distance will be up to twice those values. Also the model of the earth doesn’t exactly conform to the shape of the real earth so the vertical distance may be off up to 200 feet, give or take. A minimum of 3 satellites is needed for position, 4 for altitude.

 

Bottom line, no matter what you use for a commercial grade handheld GPS, even a “Maglin”, to place a cache, the combination of your error added to the searchers error could add up to 20-30 feet.

[ferjea]

do some of you people collect points for being rude?

even if you have a valid point, stating it rudely gets you no where.

good grief.

[+TerraViators]

do some of you people collect points for being rude?

even if you have a valid point, stating it rudely gets you no where.

good grief.

You have to be a platinum or carbon fiber level member to collect rude points. I'm currently at level 2. I received bonus points for being rude to Keystone, but we're cool, now. Good luck and keep playing. I hope to insult you someday on the trail. Good times.

[+lamoracke]

do some of you people collect points for being rude?

even if you have a valid point, stating it rudely gets you no where.

good grief.

 

to be quite honest, the only rude post I have seen in this entire thread is the one you just did.

[Suscrofa]

Feet, inches, miles ???? So if you work in 1/128 inch you will be more accurate ?

 

Oh by the way, which feet do you use ? The survey one or the one defined according to the metric standard ?

 

When I see "feet" and "accuracy" in the same post, I laugh !

 

And you can pile up commercial grade GPS, you won't get more "accuracy".

Edited August 1, 2011 by Suscrofa

[+briansnat]

do some of you people collect points for being rude?

even if you have a valid point, stating it rudely gets you no where.

good grief.

 

to be quite honest, the only rude post I have seen in this entire thread is the one you just did.

 

Silly posts sure, but I really didn't see anything rude.

[Clan Riffster]

Here's an interesting little article on the accuracy of Smartphone GPSrs

We had an event recently where a GPSr specialist gave a pretty interesting talk about GPSr function and accuracy. Part of his talk discussed the inherent inaccuracies of cell phone based GPS receivers. He talked at length about how much better they are today, now that many cellular devices are utilizing actual GPS signals, rather than using cell tower signals, but stressed that even with this improvement there is no comparison with a dedicated handheld. Once all the scientific jargon was boiled away, he was saying that the biggest issue is the antennas. Droids, Blackberries and iPhones apparently use fairly crappy patch antennas, which can be measured with the right equipment between the antenna and the processor. An attendee brought up the fact that his phone regularly claimed an accuracy of 5 feet, which led to a detailed explanation about EPE, (estimated position error), and the algorithms which produce that all but worthless number.

 

Naturally, after the demonstration, the smart phone crowd still insisted their phones were as accurate as a 60CSx. At that point, all I could do was giggle. It's tough to argue with a fanatic who is willing to ignore scientific data just to maintain an illusion.

[knowschad]

do some of you people collect points for being rude?

even if you have a valid point, stating it rudely gets you no where.

good grief.

 

Who? What?!? Who was rude? Where? Have I really become so jaded? I see a few lightly humorous posts, and a number of helpful posts regarding GPS accuracy. But I don't see rude.

[+Chokecherry]

 

So far the best coords I've encountered where on a cache here in town placed by someone with a Garmin Legend. I 'zeroed out', set myGPS down, spent ages looking for the darn cache. It was directly under my GPS!

 

Once I went back and finally found my very first DNF, I realized that I had set my day pack right on top of it.

 

I sat on top of one once while trying to figure out where the heck it could be.