Logging your own Challenge cache?

[+SSO JOAT]

Been discussing some Challenge cache ideas with the boys 'round here and this thought came to mind; while it is not cool to log finds on your own physical caches, what about Challenge caches? The cache owner is basically just acting as the record keeper for those who are completing the challenge, so if the owner completes said challenge himself, he ought to be free and clear to log the find on his own cache without scorn, yes?

 

Thoughts?

[+W7WT]

-Hawk- and I (W7WT) set up the Kitsap County Challenge. It was his challenge and I did most of the verifying of the pages on the Atlas. I did the challenge myself which gave me first hand info on what caches would count for each page. I did take credit for finding all the pages and completing the challenge. Dick, W7WT

[+ZeLonewolf]

Call me old-fashioned; I feel like, in general, if you lay out a challenge cache you personally should have already completed whatever the challenge is. I know it's not a requirement, but I've always thought it's a bit silly to challenge other cachers to something you haven't done yourself!

[+dfx]

Call me old-fashioned; I feel like, in general, if you lay out a challenge cache you personally should have already completed whatever the challenge is. I know it's not a requirement, but I've always thought it's a bit silly to challenge other cachers to something you haven't done yourself!

actually, with some challenges it's a bit of a de-facto requirement. when you publish a challenge cache, the reviewer will require you to somehow demonstrate that the challenge can be met. with some challenges, the only, or at least easiest way to do that is to complete it yourself!

[+ChileHead]

Call me old-fashioned; I feel like, in general, if you lay out a challenge cache you personally should have already completed whatever the challenge is. I know it's not a requirement, but I've always thought it's a bit silly to challenge other cachers to something you haven't done yourself!

actually, with some challenges it's a bit of a de-facto requirement. when you publish a challenge cache, the reviewer will require you to somehow demonstrate that the challenge can be met. with some challenges, the only, or at least easiest way to do that is to complete it yourself!

 

Then log a FTF on your own challenge cache after it's published!

[+Tequila]

I created Ontario's first Fizzy Challenge (Tequila:81 Proof) before there was a massive influx of challenges.

 

At the time, there was no requirement for the CO to have completed the said challenge and, in fact, I was short by about 20 caches.

 

When I did complete T81, I logged a find on it. I have never logged a find on my caches before but felt that a fizzy challenge was significant enough to warrant an exception. Particularly a fizzy with a date restriction. And it was not about the numbers for me; I quit logging most of my finds years ago.

 

Of course, it is up to each individual to decide what is right for them. I doubt anyone would criticize you for logging the find, assuming the challenge was significant enough.

 

.

[+Isonzo Karst]

so if the owner completes said challenge himself, he ought to be free and clear to log the find on his own cache without scorn, yes

 

Well, my opinion would be that the cache owner would be free and clear to write a note about completing the challenge. I wouldn't bother to raise up any scorn myself, on this, or any other case of a cache owner logging a find on their own hide.

 

Challenge caches consist of 2 parts:

 

#1 complete challenge

#2 find cache

 

The owner can do #1 (and I agree, probably should do it BEFORE they post the challenge) but they can't do

#2 on their own cache, any more then they could on any other cache they own.

[+SSO JOAT]

Challenge caches consist of 2 parts:

 

#2 find cache

 

... they can't do #2 on their own cache, any more then they could on any other cache they own.

 

Now that point I strongly argue. The CO can not only find the cache, but they were in fact the first to find the cache and the location they put it. Second, the hide for a challenge is nothing more than a public place to put the logbook for people to sign. It's not like solving your own puzzle, or seeking out a difficulty 4 micro hide. In fact, I'd expect the Challenge cache itself to be somewhere about a 1.5/1.5 rating with nothing but a logbook to sign.

 

I don't log finds on my own traditional caches only because that is the guideline on how this sport is played. But that doesn't mean the CO didn't find the hide first. If the CO hadn't found it, his cache wouldn't be there, now would it?

 

In response to some other comments... I don't see the Challenge as being something the CO is challenging others to do because he did it himself. I see the Challenge as a goal for the entire caching community, to include the CO. The CO is just the person who has accepted the burden of maintaining the logbook and verifying that all who sign it completed the Challenge.

 

The Challenges we've been discussing are actually pretty simple concepts. We're looking at breaking areas within our region up into distinct geographic zones and the Challenge is to find every traditional cache within the zone. What we've been talking about is the criteria that would need to be in place to claim that Challenge complete. Obviously new caches are added and existing ones are disabled on a regular basis. So, we were looking at ways that you could take a snapshot of the day you claim to have reached the goal and it would require a "my finds" PQ generated on that date as well as the PQ for that geographic area minus all disabled and any other cache features we would consider not part of the challenge (e.g. we might remove any 5-star terrain caches from the mandatory list as an unreasonable expectation for some cachers to be able to find them as they don't have a boat or the ability to rock climb or whatever). Pretty much means the cache would be a PMO listing due to the PQ requirement, unless we want to incorporate a work-around for basics, such as the CO using GSAK filtering to generate the basic's find list. Either way, it would be a lot of work for the CO to verify the cache count, but I don't expect that there would be a lot of people completing such a Challenge so it should be manageable.

 

Anyone know of some Challenges similar to this with links or GC# so I can look at them?

 

Thanks for the discussion!

Edited October 10, 2010 by SSO JOAT

[+The Leprechauns]

Been discussing some Challenge cache ideas with the boys 'round here and this thought came to mind; while it is not cool to log finds on your own physical caches, what about Challenge caches? The cache owner is basically just acting as the record keeper for those who are completing the challenge, so if the owner completes said challenge himself, he ought to be free and clear to log the find on his own cache without scorn, yes?

 

Thoughts?

Have a look at this prior discussion from 2007, which popped up within days of when I completed my goal of finding caches in every Pennsylvania DeLorme Grid and Pennsylvania County so I qualified for those challenges. Thousands of travel miles, hundreds of dollars worth of gasoline. I had intended on visiting the cache containers and logging finds on the challenge caches, which I co-own under a team account shared with several other people.

 

The views in the thread surprised me, and I have not logged finds on the challenges that I co-own. I didn't burst into flames, and I did enjoy finding all the caches, but the experience did change my views about challenges. Challenges are becoming the "new ALR's." I'm in favor of locking all the existing challenges and creating a small number of challenges with worldwide availability, which would be "owned" by Groundspeak and awarded when the challenge criteria are met. The new Souvenirs feature seems like a good vehicle for this. Challenges are like achievement badges in my favorite xBox video game.

[+The Leprechauns]

The Challenges we've been discussing are actually pretty simple concepts. We're looking at breaking areas within our region up into distinct geographic zones and the Challenge is to find every traditional cache within the zone. What we've been talking about is the criteria that would need to be in place to claim that Challenge complete. Obviously new caches are added and existing ones are disabled on a regular basis. So, we were looking at ways that you could take a snapshot of the day you claim to have reached the goal and it would require a "my finds" PQ generated on that date as well as the PQ for that geographic area minus all disabled and any other cache features we would consider not part of the challenge (e.g. we might remove any 5-star terrain caches from the mandatory list as an unreasonable expectation for some cachers to be able to find them as they don't have a boat or the ability to rock climb or whatever). Pretty much means the cache would be a PMO listing due to the PQ requirement, unless we want to incorporate a work-around for basics, such as the CO using GSAK filtering to generate the basic's find list. Either way, it would be a lot of work for the CO to verify the cache count, but I don't expect that there would be a lot of people completing such a Challenge so it should be manageable.

When designing your Challenges, be sure to read the applicable listing guideline provisions as well as the Knowlege Book Page about Challenge Caches. Note that, in your quest for a valid verification method, you cannot require other geocachers to send pocket query files (including the All Finds query) to the Challenge Cache owner. That would violate the terms of use for pocket queries.

[+webscouter.]

Many of the challenges here in Kansas and Missouri are "owned" by an account set up just for challenges. Then the cache owner can log a find on them.

[+hydnsek]

Second, the hide for a challenge is nothing more than a public place to put the logbook for people to sign. It's not like solving your own puzzle, or seeking out a difficulty 4 micro hide. In fact, I'd expect the Challenge cache itself to be somewhere about a 1.5/1.5 rating with nothing but a logbook to sign.

Then you'd be shocked by some of the challenge finals here in Washington state. People have actually DNF'd the final to our Fizzy challenge (linky). The final for our Hike 100 Miles Challenge requires a hike (!), and the final of our Fire Lookout Challenge is...guess where.

 

The Challenges we've been discussing are actually pretty simple concepts. We're looking at breaking areas within our region up into distinct geographic zones and the Challenge is to find every traditional cache within the zone. What we've been talking about is the criteria that would need to be in place to claim that Challenge complete. Obviously new caches are added and existing ones are disabled on a regular basis. So, we were looking at ways that you could take a snapshot of the day you claim to have reached the goal and it would require a "my finds" PQ generated on that date as well as the PQ for that geographic area minus all disabled and any other cache features we would consider not part of the challenge (e.g. we might remove any 5-star terrain caches from the mandatory list as an unreasonable expectation for some cachers to be able to find them as they don't have a boat or the ability to rock climb or whatever). Pretty much means the cache would be a PMO listing due to the PQ requirement, unless we want to incorporate a work-around for basics, such as the CO using GSAK filtering to generate the basic's find list. Either way, it would be a lot of work for the CO to verify the cache count, but I don't expect that there would be a lot of people completing such a Challenge so it should be manageable.

 

Anyone know of some Challenges similar to this with links or GC# so I can look at them?

We have several similar challenges in Washington, commonly called Blackout challenges. You can find them on our Washington Challenge Caches bookmark list.

[+SSO JOAT]

Thanks for the links to the old thread and the WA bookmark list. I'll be doing more reading and research.

 

BTW, the concept of using the club's account to publish the challenge's was brought up early and is certainly a consideration. One of the reasons I asked was to help decide whether to push for the club to publish or for individuals to do them.

[AZcachemeister]

... ought to be free and clear to log the find on his own cache without scorn, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

NO.

I wouldn't even consider it.

From my stats I could create any number of 'challenges' I would qualify for.

[+niraD]

This issue helps convince me that geocaching challenges would make more sense as some sort of badge system ("Souvenirs"?), rather than as the current system of challenge caches.

[+Ambrosia]

I think it would be interesting if Groundspeak would set some sort of badge/souvenir thing up. I've met some challenges, and am close to some/could work on others. I love that sort of stuff. But I've mostly given up on it because the finals are so far away from me or too hard for me to get to physically (I live in Washington state ). So that kind of takes the wind out of my sails, and I don't even want to bother.

[+Isonzo Karst]

The CO can not only find the cache, but they were in fact the first to find the cache and the location they put it.

 

Well, sure. But if that's your logic, then log finds on all your owned hides. And really, this is okay by me. But whether the cache has a leading challenge (approved ALR) or it's a traditional cache at coords, logging a find on a cache you placed is outside the norm for this game.

 

I like Lep's notion,

 

"I'm in favor of locking all the existing challenges and creating a small number of challenges with worldwide availability,..awarded when the challenge criteria are met. The new Souvenirs feature seems like a good vehicle for this. "

 

Yepper. I like this a lot. Tough to come up with "worldwide availabilty" - All terrain difficulty grid (Fizzy) and then what?

[+Tequila]

The challenge with Groundspeak assuming ownership of the challenges is policing the requirements.

 

Locally, we have a cacher who:

 

(1) Changed the name of a cache to a nonsensical name in order to make it easier for other cachers to complete an alphabet challenge.

 

(2) Changed a cache rating to an hard to get rating and then archived the cache in order to mess up the matrix of several cachers trying to complete the fizzy challenge.

 

As the owner of two challenges, I only need to "police" a few cachers. If GS owned all the challenges, they would have to dedicate a full time employee to validating etc.

 

 

.

[+briansnat]

I don't log finds on my own caches, so no, I would not log find on my own challenge cache. I already know where it is so how can I "find" it?

 

It would be like hiding my keys under the sofa at night then bragging in the morning that I found them.

[+sbell111]

The challenge with Groundspeak assuming ownership of the challenges is policing the requirements.

 

Locally, we have a cacher who:

 

(1) Changed the name of a cache to a nonsensical name in order to make it easier for other cachers to complete an alphabet challenge.

 

(2) Changed a cache rating to an hard to get rating and then archived the cache in order to mess up the matrix of several cachers trying to complete the fizzy challenge.

 

As the owner of two challenges, I only need to "police" a few cachers. If GS owned all the challenges, they would have to dedicate a full time employee to validating etc.

Seems that most of the 'policing' could be automated.

I don't log finds on my own caches, so no, I would not log find on my own challenge cache. I already know where it is so how can I "find" it?

 

It would be like hiding my keys under the sofa at night then bragging in the morning that I found them.

Many times, I've been quite happy to 'find' my keys. Sure, they were where I left them, but that didn't lower the challenge.

 

Similarly, the thing about these caches is completing the challenge. If an owner of a challenge cache complete's that cache's challenge, then it is fine by me if he logs the find. I likely would, also.

 

Of course, whether the practice matters to you and I is moot. The arbiter as to whether a cache is found continues to be the cache owner. If he believes that a 'find' is appropriate, then it is.

[+Tequila]

 

Seems that most of the 'policing' could be automated.

 

 

That is a very good point. Software would be much better at finding name changes, rating changes etc.

[+t4e]

i agree with those that suggested Challenge Caches to be "awarded" with a different icon or put in their own category

 

while i strongly disagree with logging own caches as found the challenges are different and the "challenge owner" certainly has a right to brag about achieving it

 

challenge caches are totally different than just a regular cache

as it stands now in the absence of a better method the only way to recognize the fact that someone completed a challenge is to have a box with a log someplace...which is fact is not what the challenge is about, technically you logging a find on a very easy cache but with difficult to complete ALR's

 

i think separate category with its own icon and perhaps a distinct badge for the specific challenge would be more appropriate and instead of having to log a "find" you would have "achieved" or "completed" type log

Edited October 11, 2010 by t4e

[+SSO JOAT]

I also agree with these last couple ideas. The "no log" folks seem to stick to the "finding your own cache" part. Since finding the silly box isn't the intent of the Challenge, then we just need to get rid of the box & book. An event cache is easily logged without having to find any box, so a Challenge cache ought to be the same way. If you've completed the goal, you get the log.

 

The discussion is interesting, but I've learned this morning from our reviewer that a Challenge that requires you to find every cache within a geographic area is against the challenge guidelines. They consider that to be an "explicit list" of caches.

[+briansnat]

I also agree with these last couple ideas. The "no log" folks seem to stick to the "finding your own cache" part. Since finding the silly box isn't the intent of the Challenge, then we just need to get rid of the box & book. An event cache is easily logged without having to find any box, so a Challenge cache ought to be the same way. If you've completed the goal, you get the log.

 

Finding the box at the end is most certainly part of the challenge. It's a geocache and all geocaches have a challenge involved, whether it is a clever hide, difficult terrain,a puzzle, finding it without being seen, whatever. In the case of a so called challenge cache the nature of the challenge is different but in the end you're still looking for a geocache. You can conceivably complete the challenge and get skunked on the actual find, well unless you're the one who hid it and knows where it is.

 

If they ever added a category simply called "challenges" that did not require a container, then your argument would hold weight. Until then you are still hunting a geocache, whether it's a challenge cache or not.

Edited October 11, 2010 by briansnat

[+DanOCan]

My thoughts:

 

- I would not log a Find on a challenge cache I have hidden.

 

- I think all challenges should have been dropped with all the other ALRs.

[+ZeLonewolf]

My thoughts:

 

- I would not log a Find on a challenge cache I have hidden.

 

- I think all challenges should have been dropped with all the other ALRs.

 

I think the challenges have added an interesting element to the game, particularly the DeLorme, fizzy, county, etc. challenges. It gives you yet another interesting meta-challenge to meet. I've been working on the cache every day challenge and I'm near the end of it. I would hate for that to go away.

[+Chokecherry]

I think it would be interesting if Groundspeak would set some sort of badge/souvenir thing up. I've met some challenges, and am close to some/could work on others. I love that sort of stuff. But I've mostly given up on it because the finals are so far away from me or too hard for me to get to physically (I live in Washington state ). So that kind of takes the wind out of my sails, and I don't even want to bother.

 

I'm with you there. Most of the challenge caches are so far away that it makes little sense for me to go through with the requirements when I'll never find the actual cache. Without finding the cache you're kind of drifting back into locationless caches in a way.

 

Equally frustrating is finding a good challenge to work on only to discover that at the end you get to find some nano or micro somewhere. That takes the wind out of my sails too.

[+t4e]

I think it would be interesting if Groundspeak would set some sort of badge/souvenir thing up. I've met some challenges, and am close to some/could work on others. I love that sort of stuff. But I've mostly given up on it because the finals are so far away from me or too hard for me to get to physically (I live in Washington state ). So that kind of takes the wind out of my sails, and I don't even want to bother.

 

I'm with you there. Most of the challenge caches are so far away that it makes little sense for me to go through with the requirements when I'll never find the actual cache. Without finding the cache you're kind of drifting back into locationless caches in a way.

 

Equally frustrating is finding a good challenge to work on only to discover that at the end you get to find some nano or micro somewhere. That takes the wind out of my sails too.

 

but but...that was the point i was trying to make earlier, a challenge cache is not about the final box with the logbook, is about completing it

 

also IMO challenge caches are what you make of them, if you choose to make them your only purpose for caching they can certainly be frustrating

what we do is we got a few on the go but will not bend over backwards to complete them in a certain amount of time, instead we made a list of the qualifying ones and when and if we are around the area we will seek them out

 

of course there is no right or wrong in approaching challenge caches, its whatever works for you

[+Chokecherry]

I'm rarely in the area of the final caches of the final caches. Just live too darn far away. And a bunch of them revolve aroudn caches in that area to top it off. They're interesting for me to read about but not something I actively take up doing because of the proximity issues.

[+Keith Watson]

The challenge with Groundspeak assuming ownership of the challenges is policing the requirements.

 

Locally, we have a cacher who:

 

(1) Changed the name of a cache to a nonsensical name in order to make it easier for other cachers to complete an alphabet challenge.

 

(2) Changed a cache rating to an hard to get rating and then archived the cache in order to mess up the matrix of several cachers trying to complete the fizzy challenge.

 

As the owner of two challenges, I only need to "police" a few cachers. If GS owned all the challenges, they would have to dedicate a full time employee to validating etc.

 

.

 

Did the cache owners admit this to you, or are you just making claims based on you own deduction or hearsay?

 

I hope you meant "police" a few caches, as policing cachers kind of sounds like stalking to me.

 

Why would it matter what other people did with their own caches? They were not placed as game pieces for your challenge caches. Lots of caches have their difficulty and or terrain updated after comments from other cachers who experience it from a different point of view.

 

As for claiming a find on your own cache, all i can say is that i don't. I don't even claim finds on my own events which is common practice.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Keith Watson

[+Tequila]

...

 

.Lots of caches have their difficulty and or terrain updated after comments from other cachers who experience it from a different point of view.

 

 

Very true but doubtful in this case given,

 

(1) The cache existed blissfully as a 4.0/2.0 for almost 6 years.

 

(2) All of the finders in the past 15 months found it because they needed the original rating for their Fizzy Grid. Hard to imagine they would recommend a change in the ratings.

 

(3) The CO changed the difficulty from 4 to 5 after he published the puzzle solution on the listing effectively making a tough puzzle cache into a simple traditional. Common sense would suggest that if the difficulty rating needed changing, it would decrease, not increase.

 

(4) The CO changed the terrain rating from 2.0 to 4.5 in spite of the fact it is the same 400 meter hike from the parking along a defined trail with minimal elevation changes that it has been for almost 6 years.

 

It is even more interesting that the chosen new rating of 5.0/4.5 is a very rare combination locally; one that required many cachers to drive up to 8 hours to find a legitimate one.

 

However,whatever the reasons for the changes, it was all for naught. The caching gods must have noticed this anomaly as well. Somehow, after being archived, the rating was magically restored to its original rating.

 

BTW, I would be curious to know if you have an explanation for the cache name change incident. I see the cache has been renamed again but the rather odd "0' at the beginning remains.

 

.

[+Trucker Lee]

Call me old-fashioned; I feel like, in general, if you lay out a challenge cache you personally should have already completed whatever the challenge is. I know it's not a requirement, but I've always thought it's a bit silly to challenge other cachers to something you haven't done yourself!

Not always the case. You could lay out a state or county challenge as a means to give yourself an incentive as well. And if you have already done it, can you add your name to the list of those who complete it?

[+lamoracke]

Challenges. Have found a lot of them. Almost 40 in the state of Washington and almost 10 in Oregon.

 

In my profile I consider my 2 own challenges completed, but I have not logged a find. My sense based on Washington cachers general opinion, that I would be lambasted for logging a find on my own challenge....course, some folks do use sock puppets to get around that. However, I will not a log a find on my challenges though sometimes I wish I could. Moun10Bike has not logged a find on his Washington Delorme Challenge either, nor has Lizzy on her Washington State County Challenge.

 

I find many people love the idea of challenge caches, even if there are some out there you will never get. I will never do the Forest Fire Lookout one or some other ones, but thats okay. Ignore them if you do not want to be bothered by them, many folks like challenges.

 

There are some challenges I do not consider well made, but its not for me to decide whats a challenge. I have a set of rules in my head of what a challenge is (vs say a series) but I imagine it would be difficult to come up with a set of guidelines of what a challenge is.

 

As far as souvenirs and challenges go. I like the idea in theory, but the problem with souvenirs....they cant be deleted. What if someone claimed a find on a challenge or any cache but the find got deleted? The souvenir would still be there. I imagine souvenirs will be flushed out more as time goes by.

 

So, I love challenges.

Edited October 12, 2010 by lamoracke

[+Keith Watson]

...

 

.Lots of caches have their difficulty and or terrain updated after comments from other cachers who experience it from a different point of view.

 

 

Very true but doubtful in this case given,

 

(1) The cache existed blissfully as a 4.0/2.0 for almost 6 years.

 

(2) All of the finders in the past 15 months found it because they needed the original rating for their Fizzy Grid. Hard to imagine they would recommend a change in the ratings.

 

(3) The CO changed the difficulty from 4 to 5 after he published the puzzle solution on the listing effectively making a tough puzzle cache into a simple traditional. Common sense would suggest that if the difficulty rating needed changing, it would decrease, not increase.

 

(4) The CO changed the terrain rating from 2.0 to 4.5 in spite of the fact it is the same 400 meter hike from the parking along a defined trail with minimal elevation changes that it has been for almost 6 years.

 

It is even more interesting that the chosen new rating of 5.0/4.5 is a very rare combination locally; one that required many cachers to drive up to 8 hours to find a legitimate one.

 

However,whatever the reasons for the changes, it was all for naught. The caching gods must have noticed this anomaly as well. Somehow, after being archived, the rating was magically restored to its original rating.

 

BTW, I would be curious to know if you have an explanation for the cache name change incident. I see the cache has been renamed again but the rather odd "0' at the beginning remains.

 

.

 

I still don't understand what this has to do with the original post. The caches you mention are owned by other people to do with as they please provided they don not violate the listing guidelines. If you really have a problem, contact Groundspeak. It sounds like you have plenty of evidence you have been gathering on specific cachers by recording what there cache listings look like over time. Kind of creepy if you ask me.

 

Since this is about logging ones own challenge, I would suggest you take what ever personal issues you have with other cachers to the appropriate channels. Perhaps you can start an new thread on the evils of cache owners who change their listings.

[+northernpenguin]

Been discussing some Challenge cache ideas with the boys 'round here and this thought came to mind; while it is not cool to log finds on your own physical caches, what about Challenge caches? The cache owner is basically just acting as the record keeper for those who are completing the challenge, so if the owner completes said challenge himself, he ought to be free and clear to log the find on his own cache without scorn, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

On my challenge caches, I've posted a "note" instead of a "found it".

Personal preference. Everyone plays the game as they see fit.

[+SSO JOAT]

As the discussion in our local group has progressed a bit, the leaning is more and more toward making our challenge concept a NON-Groundspeak deal, so it wouldn't be a cache and wouldn't have anything to do with GS. The reason is the GS prohibition on a Challenge that requires all active caches in a geographic area to be the Challenge.

 

At any rate, back to my OP question, the info I was looking for has been provided by the forum community. Thanks for the feedback.

[+sbell111]

As far as souvenirs and challenges go. I like the idea in theory, but the problem with souvenirs....they cant be deleted. What if someone claimed a find on a challenge or any cache but the find got deleted? The souvenir would still be there. I imagine souvenirs will be flushed out more as time goes by.

How do you know that your bolded comment is correct? It seems that the system could be set to delete a souvi icon if the associated find log was deleted. Of course, this assumes that the system is set to recognize to different types of souvis. One souvi is merely for caching in a specified area. These souvis do not require that a found log is made on any specific cache (for smartphone users, anyway). The other type of souvi is tied directly to a cache find/event attended. These souvis should be set to be deleted if the find was determined to be bogus.

 

As the discussion in our local group has progressed a bit, the leaning is more and more toward making our challenge concept a NON-Groundspeak deal, so it wouldn't be a cache and wouldn't have anything to do with GS. The reason is the GS prohibition on a Challenge that requires all active caches in a geographic area to be the Challenge.

I don't understand the concept of an 'all caches in area' challenge.

 

Imagine an area with 50 caches. Cacher A finds all 50 caches and completes the challenge. Cacher B hides a new cache in the area. Cacher C now has to find 51 caches to complete the challenge. Is Cacher A's completion of the challenge voided until he finds that new cache? If not, does the completion of the challenge have any meaning at all since thier is no way to compare the achievements of the 'completers'.

Edited October 13, 2010 by sbell111

[+SSO JOAT]

According to another thread on 10/10 in re the souvies, once the log that generated the prize was deleted from the cache listing, the souvie disappeared along with it.

 

And the "all caches in an area" challenge we came up with was for a snapshot in time. Hence, the challenge is complete for the cacher for the date that he finds the last active & unfound cache on the map. A cache placed the next day doesn't have any effect on his completion of the previous day's list. It just means that on that one date, he had found every single cache in that area.

[+addisonbr]

I don't understand the concept of an 'all caches in area' challenge.

 

Imagine an area with 50 caches. Cacher A finds all 50 caches and completes the challenge. Cacher B hides a new cache in the area. Cacher C now has to find 51 caches to complete the challenge. Is Cacher A's completion of the challenge voided until he finds that new cache? If not, does the completion of the challenge have any meaning at all since thier is no way to compare the achievements of the 'completers'.

I don't really have a problem with this. If my local organization had a badge for "clearing Manhattan" it wouldn't bother me that people could earn that badge at different times with different difficulty levels. I once cleared the island, after finally solving a 5-star difficulty puzzle I'd been working on for 18 months, and I was super excited about it... I've never had the island cleared since, but it doesn't matter, I did something that took me almost two years. And that was pretty awesome. It wouldn't bother me if someone else had the badge from 2004 and didn't have to find as many caches.

[+addisonbr]

I have a couple of reasons why I'm not enthusiastic about badges or souvenirs taking the place of challenge caches.

 

The first is that geocaching is different from XBox and other all-electronic endeavors. I love my XBox and I love my achievement badges... but I think it's cool that to commemorate a geocaching challenge you typically go out and find a geocache. The final step in the accomplishment pays tribute to the guts of the game. That to me is great.

 

The other thing is that I would really, really miss the logs that people leave for challenge caches. I have dozens of them on my watchlist, especially the more difficult ones, and I've found that the logs people leave are among the most interesting and inspiring logs caching-wide. If it morphed into a situation where an electronic badge automatically pops into your profile, I would really miss not being able to share these moments with the proud cachers who have completed the challenges. In the past I've emailed people I don't know just to reach out and tell them how awesome their logs were.

 

I know that Groundspeak is striving to make geocaching a more social game, but I really think that the online logs are a big part of that, and the online logs for challenge caches are among the best. I'd be sad to lose those.