Jump to content

this just doesn't make any sense at all....


themulls
Followers 3

Recommended Posts

I was told I can't hide a cache within 528 ft of a cemetery in tennessee according to the law....but then told any caches already hid before the law went into affect are under the grandfather rule in the guidelines. What doesn't make sense is if it is against State Law to hide one there, why do they still allow caches that were placed before the law went into effect???

 

If its against the law its against the law, shouldn't matter when the cache was placed.

Link to comment

Tennessee Cemetery & Burial Site Laws

Statutory Laws

(Tennessee Code Annotated)

Title 46. Cemeteries

46-2-105. Crimes and offenses

No person shall willfully destroy, deface, or injure any monument, tomb, gravestone, or other structure placed in the cemetery, or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or-around the same, or injure any tree, plant or shrub therein, or hunt or shoot therein, play at any game or amusement therein, or loiter for lascivious or lewd purposes therein, or interfere, by words or actions, with any funeral procession or any religious exercises.

(A violation of this section is a Class E felony, punishable by 1 to 6 years in jail and a fine not to exceed $3,000)

Link to comment

In general terms new laws that are passed normaly don't effect things prior to tha passing of the law. There for if it was in effect before the law, it is allowed after the law.

 

Just as long as there is no change in the cache then it will be allowed to remain. I think if I was the CO I would go ahead and archive. It may be grandfathered in but is looking for it still legal?

Link to comment

Depends on the law. The law probably states somethign similair too, "caches may not be placed within 528 feet of the cemetary, old ones are allowed to stay but may not be moved to a new location in the cemetary area.

Most laws are this way. They include a grandfather clause.

 

OP: If it bothers you that much then don't search for cemetary caches.

 

And if you really want to get people to come look at the cemetary you might be able to do a puzzle cache that requires information from the cemetary. Just make sure to let everyone know that they'll need to go to the cemetary in the cache page- some folks don't like cemetary caches.

Link to comment

Depends on the law. The law probably states somethign similair too, "caches may not be placed within 528 feet of the cemetary, old ones are allowed to stay but may not be moved to a new location in the cemetary area.

Most laws are this way. They include a grandfather clause.

 

OP: If it bothers you that much then don't search for cemetary caches.

 

And if you really want to get people to come look at the cemetary you might be able to do a puzzle cache that requires information from the cemetary. Just make sure to let everyone know that they'll need to go to the cemetary in the cache page- some folks don't like cemetary caches.

 

play at any game or amusement therein
punishable by 1 to 6 years in jail and a fine not to exceed $3,000

Doesn't sound to me like I'd want to get information from a cemetery in that jurisdiction. The cost/reward equation seems out of balance.

Link to comment

In general terms new laws that are passed normaly don't effect things prior to tha passing of the law. There for if it was in effect before the law, it is allowed after the law.

 

Just as long as there is no change in the cache then it will be allowed to remain. I think if I was the CO I would go ahead and archive. It may be grandfathered in but is looking for it still legal?

Not according to that quote...Looking for it would be illegal, unless you were going to remove it...Unless there is some debate of the terms "Game" and "Amusement". Without definitions of those terms, the law would be impossible to enforce. Either way around...avoiding the confrontation would be the easiest solution.

Link to comment

I was going to hide one in our family cemetery but obviously can't now...i was just curious as to how other caches were still allowed to be there

You own the cemetary? Or you own the plot?

We own the land it is on

 

The No Fun Club strikes again!

 

Back in the day it was not at all unusual for family members to have a picnic near a dear departed's grave, play a little badminton or checkers and generally enjoy themselves.

 

For the past few decades attitudes have changed, cemeteries have become some holy of holy places where even a squirrel not dare chatter too loudly, so sacred that families don't even go visit graves, except to change out some dead flowers for some soon-to-be dead flowers.

 

If you don't like it, fight it. Write letters to those people who come up with these crazy statutes and explain why they are wrong and how you will next be voting for any opponent who will remove such silliness from the law books.

Link to comment

I was going to hide one in our family cemetery but obviously can't now...i was just curious as to how other caches were still allowed to be there

You own the cemetary? Or you own the plot?

We own the land it is on

 

The No Fun Club strikes again!

 

Back in the day it was not at all unusual for family members to have a picnic near a dear departed's grave, play a little badminton or checkers and generally enjoy themselves.

 

For the past few decades attitudes have changed, cemeteries have become some holy of holy places where even a squirrel not dare chatter too loudly, so sacred that families don't even go visit graves, except to change out some dead flowers for some soon-to-be dead flowers.

 

If you don't like it, fight it. Write letters to those people who come up with these crazy statutes and explain why they are wrong and how you will next be voting for any opponent who will remove such silliness from the law books.

 

I like using charcol and doing rubbings of old headstones. And taking photos of some of the more interesting headstones.

 

I'm not sure if that counts has amusment or not.

 

In the end it is up to the governing board.

Link to comment

 

I like using charcol and doing rubbings of old headstones. And taking photos of some of the more interesting headstones.

 

I'm not sure if that counts has amusment or not.

 

In the end it is up to the governing board.

Yep, I was wondering if taking rubbings, or even hiking through would be an ammusement? It sounds like one of those laws that was written to be a Catchall for arresting anyone who is doing anything that someone doesn't like.

Link to comment

If you google Tennessee state laws, and look it up for yourself, you will see that there is an exception to that law. Under EXEMPTIONS 46-1-106: http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?...m&cp=tncode

 

It reads that the provisions in chapter one and two do not apply to family burial grounds and cemeteries owned by churches, religious organiations and municipalities. The criminal tresspassing provision is in chapter one, so anyone telling you you can't place a cache because it is "playing a game" in your own cemetery is wrong.

 

Unless I am reading the provision wrong, then I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

Link to comment

So the law only applies to cemetaries owned by states? I can't think of anyone other than a state that would fall within this law. Very strange really, wonder what was going on that someone felt the need to pass this. I'm pretty sure that caching in state owned cemetaries is the worst thing going on in Tennessee and all law enforcement attention should be diverted from whatever they're doing now to end this vile practice.

Edited by lachupa
Link to comment

I'm pretty sure that caching in state owned cemetaries is the worst thing going on in Tennessee and all law enforcement attention should be diverted from whatever they're doing now to end this vile practice.

 

i'm sure it is too. geocachers are known to take the most direct route to a cache, and some are even known to interrupt a funeral to see if a cache is in the casket.

 

:rolleyes:

Link to comment
Why on earth would they ban cemetery hides?
Possibly because many caches were being placed in cemeteries without permission. If it becomes too much of a problem in a state, province, etc., a legislative ban becomes the only solution.
The law didn't directly ban geocaching. We merely got caught up in a wider ban.
So the law only applies to cemetaries owned by states? I can't think of anyone other than a state that would fall within this law. ...
Of course it only applies to state-owned cemeteries. It would be impossible for them to ban legal activities on privately owned land. A law like that would never survive a court challenge.
Link to comment

If you google Tennessee state laws, and look it up for yourself, you will see that there is an exception to that law. Under EXEMPTIONS 46-1-106: http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?...m&cp=tncode

 

It reads that the provisions in chapter one and two do not apply to family burial grounds and cemeteries owned by churches, religious organiations and municipalities. The criminal tresspassing provision is in chapter one, so anyone telling you you can't place a cache because it is "playing a game" in your own cemetery is wrong.

 

Unless I am reading the provision wrong, then I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

I read this differently. The exemptions apply to the first chapter of the act, regulating various aspects of how cemeteries are run. The law banning games is part of the second chapter of the act applying to "any land or structure in this state dedicated to and used, or intended to be used, for interment of human remains."

 

Of course I will want to look at it more when I can get into Westlaw and am not tring to look at it while on the bus.

Link to comment

I'm pretty sure that caching in state owned cemetaries is the worst thing going on in Tennessee and all law enforcement attention should be diverted from whatever they're doing now to end this vile practice.

 

i'm sure it is too. geocachers are known to take the most direct route to a cache, and some are even known to interrupt a funeral to see if a cache is in the casket.

 

;)

 

They didn't go to the casket, but some geocachers did have an impact at a funeral: GCQBNG

"Someone at former Dunedin Mayor John Doglione's funeral saw the couple and called authorities. Enter the bomb squad."

Edited by dbrierley
Link to comment

The key words to the law is "" play at any game or amusement therein ""

 

the reason that the ones were grandfathered in before the law became known to the volunteers reviewers is simple. They did not know about the law, namely me the ( Max Cacher ) past reviewer

 

If there is a complaint about one of the existing caches in or near any cemetery in TN the cache will be archived by the local reviewer, everyone's even mine and one of mine was archived after there was a complaint just like it should have been

 

Even if permission is now given permission from the owner or the person in charge of the cemetery it does not trump the law

 

as I said before "" play at any game or amusement therein "" you can't get around that

 

in the famous words of Forest Gump " That enough on this Subject "

 

hope that explains the Tennessee Law and caches placement

 

Happy Trails

 

Joe

Link to comment

46-1-106 does say that the exemptions are for the 2nd chapter as well

 

hope that explains the Tennessee Law and caches placement

 

According to West. the current version of the law is actually T. C. A. § 46-1-313 [Destruction or injury to cemetery property; prohibited actions; penalties] rather than the statute quoted above (46-2-105). So, undoubtedly the current law does bring it in to the statute applying various exemptions.

 

The original statute predates geocaching, so it was certainly not passed in reaction to this game. Maybe we could blame it on the letterboxers.

 

Although the effect of moving it into the first chapter of the regulations pertaining to cemeteries might be interesting, the statute is not a model of draftsmanship. I doubt that the legislative intent was to allow people to "destroy, deface, or injure any monument, tomb, gravestone" in a public, municipally, owned cemetery but prohibit it in a private cemetery. I think the legislature probably intended to exempt city cemeteries, church cemeteries, family burial grounds, and the like from the numerous regulations, trust funds, reporting, and other requirements that apply to company cemeteries and simply moved the law prohibiting destruction or games to that section.

 

I will leave it to the locals to determine how Tennessee applies statutory interpretation, although it would be an interesting defense, I would error on the side of caution. It appears the reviewers in Tennessee currently do.

 

Of course it only applies to state-owned cemeteries. It would be impossible for them to ban legal activities on privately owned land. A law like that would never survive a court challenge.

 

Although as the statute literally reads, it is just the opposite. If the exemptions applied, then it would be illegal to deface a graveyard or play a game in privately-owned cemetery run by a company, but not one owned by a municipality, a church, a family burial ground, or one owned by a nonprofit general welfare corporation (under certain conditions). That result seems a bit absurd, which is why a court in my state might interpret it to have general applicability. But if a cache was placed by a family member on a privately owned family burial ground on private family owned property, I also doubt that there would be anyone to complain.

Edited by mulvaney
Link to comment

Depends on the law. The law probably states somethign similair too, "caches may not be placed within 528 feet of the cemetary, old ones are allowed to stay but may not be moved to a new location in the cemetary area.

Most laws are this way. They include a grandfather clause.

 

OP: If it bothers you that much then don't search for cemetary caches.

 

And if you really want to get people to come look at the cemetary you might be able to do a puzzle cache that requires information from the cemetary. Just make sure to let everyone know that they'll need to go to the cemetary in the cache page- some folks don't like cemetary caches.

 

play at any game or amusement therein
punishable by 1 to 6 years in jail and a fine not to exceed $3,000

Doesn't sound to me like I'd want to get information from a cemetery in that jurisdiction. The cost/reward equation seems out of balance.

+1

Link to comment

I was going to hide one in our family cemetery but obviously can't now...i was just curious as to how other caches were still allowed to be there

 

Could you move the cache over a few feet and put it outside the cemetery but still on your land? There might be room for compromise here.

 

Reviewer said I have to move it 528 feet from the cemetery, which is no longer on the property

Link to comment

Did you explain you own the property?

 

I can not see how the state determines what games we play on our own property.

 

I have not read the law and am relying on previous posters who have. If they are correct that the law does not apply to private property I would point that out to the reviewer.

Edited by Prescott Patrol
Link to comment

Did you explain you own the property?

 

I can not see how the state determines what games we play on our own property.

 

I have not read the law and am relying on previous posters who have. If they are correct that the law does not apply to private property I would point that out to the reviewer.

 

Its kind of a strange chapter. I just read it again during lunch and was struck by how sloppy it is. The primary purpose of the entire code is to regulate private cemetery companies. It establishes a comprehensive system, relating to a number of duties and responsibilities, but exempts municipal cemeteries, church-owned cemeteries, family burial sites, and certain nonprofit cemeteries from the provisions of the chapter.

 

Then at the end, it tacks on a poorly written, general provision relating to defacement of graves, playing games in cemeteries, and the like: "No person shall [do all sorts of bad things] in the cemetery , or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or around the cemetery . . . " The word "the" seems odd.

 

It makes no sense to prohibit defacement of graves in cemeteries owned by private companies but not from public ones, churches, or family burial sites. Although Tennessee might do things differently, I think a court in my state would find that the intent was to apply this section to the actions of people in all cemeteries as defined earlier in the code. Unlike the previous sections, it does not relate to the duty of a cemetery, but the conduct of an individual. In any event, I would not want to be the subject of a test case.

 

I am not certain about the type of ownership that is involved. If it is a family burial site, on your own land, then I don't think anyone would ever complain. If it is something where the plot is owned by an individual within a larger cemetery, then the situation might be different. In some areas, the certificate of ownership requires you to follow rules and regulations relating to the cemetery as a whole. Although said in a different context, a Kansas court noted that "a cemetery, by inherent nature, is not subject to laws of ordinary property."

 

I still have to wonder why the law targets games -- it definitely predates our own game, so what were they playing in Tennessee that led to this?

Edited by mulvaney
Link to comment

I'm pretty sure that caching in state owned cemetaries is the worst thing going on in Tennessee and all law enforcement attention should be diverted from whatever they're doing now to end this vile practice.

 

i'm sure it is too. geocachers are known to take the most direct route to a cache, and some are even known to interrupt a funeral to see if a cache is in the casket.

 

:D

 

They didn't go to the casket, but some geocachers did have an impact at a funeral: GCQBNG

"Someone at former Dunedin Mayor John Doglione's funeral saw the couple and called authorities. Enter the bomb squad."

 

that's sweet! i clicked the link and expected to see some fun little log by someone with a tagname i've never seen before... and yet no, i see a herd of folks from my area over there as the last ones to log it. looks as though they should get read the riot act for their insensitivity. :)

Link to comment

I was going to hide one in our family cemetery but obviously can't now...i was just curious as to how other caches were still allowed to be there

 

Could you move the cache over a few feet and put it outside the cemetery but still on your land? There might be room for compromise here.

 

Reviewer said I have to move it 528 feet from the cemetery, which is no longer on the property

 

I think some of the reviewers are taking this law a little more into their own interpretation than is really necessary. I was at the MWGB where a Tennessee reviewer was in a panel that talked about this. He is erring completely on the side of caution by saying it would be silly to get a felony charge for playing this game in the cemetery.

 

I highly doubt this is what was intended by the law, and in my personal (and not legal in any way) opinion, I think it is being way overprotective.

 

As for the 528 feet, that is completely arbitrary. There is no rule from this website which prohibits the placement of a cache within a specified distance from any cemetery. The only other specified distances I have ever heard of are 150' from certain things like bridges or railroad tracks. I believe the reviewer is making an arbitrary decision on this one, and you would be best served by appealing to the reviewers email address.

Link to comment

There was a bill introduced in 2007 to take the language relating to games and amusement out of the law (section 46-1-313, "relative to trespass or injury to cemetery property"). Which gives rise to another question, was Senator Wilder or Assembly Person Maddow a geocacher?

 

And did a television news show in 2005, focusing on cachers working to clean Nashville cemeteries, and how much fun caching in cemeteries might be, stir up any interest? The "no good deed goes unpunished" type of scenario.

 

But a 528 foot buffer seems a little cautious. I can see a reviewer not wanting to list a cache too close, to give it a little distance just to be safe, but as long as you are not playing a game within the cemetery or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or around the cemetery you should be okay.

Edited by mulvaney
Link to comment

As a cacher who lives in the same area as JoeGPS and one of the TN Reviewers I have spoken to both on this subject. The law is about 100 years old and no one has ever been convicted under it. Hardly anybody outside of caching knows it exists. My understanding is a cacher stumbled across the law and brought it up to the reviewers and Groundspeak. After much debate it was decided, as Joe stated, to let existing ones stand and archive them only if there is a problem. however new ones would be prohibited until the law was changed. Who wants to be the first one prosecuted under that law? If this law has not been tested in court than we cannot say how the court would apply it to private or public cemeteries (my understanding is under TN law any cemetery must be open for the public to visit no matter who owns the land it is on, so maybe all are public?). So who wants to test the law in court?

 

As for the 528 foot rule. At first caches were published if they were anywhere outside of the cemetery. But some cachers decided to play games. Move it after publication, lie to the reviewer about the cemetery bounds, etc. So because of these few bad apples we all have to move further away. Don't blame the reviewer who is trying to keep our game legal and in good standing with the authorities, blame the ones who refuse to play within the guidelines.

 

Instead work with the reviewer. I know The Seanachie and TNCacher, both of those guys will bend over backwards to help you get your cache published. But if you fight them, try to pull tricks, or throw a fit (I am not saying you were but these are things others have done) then they will examine every hide you do with a fine tooth comb. Also you are close enough to the Nashville area (my mother was FTF on your hide and I have four caches in your area) to come to an event and meet both Joe and The Seanachie. Talk to them face to face and get there advice on how to make your hide work.

 

To answer another question on here, No the legislators were not geocachers. But some cachers from Jackson and Memphis worked with them to try to get the law changed. It just didn't work out.

Link to comment

Did you explain you own the property?

 

I can not see how the state determines what games we play on our own property.

 

I have not read the law and am relying on previous posters who have. If they are correct that the law does not apply to private property I would point that out to the reviewer.

 

Its kind of a strange chapter. I just read it again during lunch and was struck by how sloppy it is. The primary purpose of the entire code is to regulate private cemetery companies. It establishes a comprehensive system, relating to a number of duties and responsibilities, but exempts municipal cemeteries, church-owned cemeteries, family burial sites, and certain nonprofit cemeteries from the provisions of the chapter.

 

Then at the end, it tacks on a poorly written, general provision relating to defacement of graves, playing games in cemeteries, and the like: "No person shall [do all sorts of bad things] in the cemetery , or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or around the cemetery . . . " The word "the" seems odd.

 

It makes no sense to prohibit defacement of graves in cemeteries owned by private companies but not from public ones, churches, or family burial sites. Although Tennessee might do things differently, I think a court in my state would find that the intent was to apply this section to the actions of people in all cemeteries as defined earlier in the code. Unlike the previous sections, it does not relate to the duty of a cemetery, but the conduct of an individual. In any event, I would not want to be the subject of a test case.

 

I am not certain about the type of ownership that is involved. If it is a family burial site, on your own land, then I don't think anyone would ever complain. If it is something where the plot is owned by an individual within a larger cemetery, then the situation might be different. In some areas, the certificate of ownership requires you to follow rules and regulations relating to the cemetery as a whole. Although said in a different context, a Kansas court noted that "a cemetery, by inherent nature, is not subject to laws of ordinary property."

 

I still have to wonder why the law targets games -- it definitely predates our own game, so what were they playing in Tennessee that led to this?

 

I see what you mean. However, "The" cemetery would directly describe the one mentioned before which excluded privately owned cemeteries like the OP's.

 

I fully realize I am not a lawyer, nor am I pretending to be one. As a cop for ten+ years I have just a smattering of legal knowledge. I can not see this statute being enforceable in any way to the OP's cemetery.

If the OP is hesitant, buy 15 minutes from a local lawyer and have them look at it. Some will then ask if buying lawyer time is worth placing a cache. Only the OP can answer that. My answer would be yes.

 

Either way, I'd place the cache. If it is denied, I'd appeal through Groundspeak. There is no way that because I bury MY family members on MY land that I give away trespassing rights. One can not sign away property rights to the general public because their family is buried on it.

Edited by Prescott Patrol
Link to comment
The key words to the law is "" play at any game or amusement therein ""

 

the reason that the ones were grandfathered in before the law became known to the volunteers reviewers is simple. They did not know about the law, namely me the ( Max Cacher ) past reviewer

 

If there is a complaint about one of the existing caches in or near any cemetery in TN the cache will be archived by the local reviewer, everyone's even mine and one of mine was archived after there was a complaint just like it should have been

 

Even if permission is now given permission from the owner or the person in charge of the cemetery it does not trump the law

 

as I said before "" play at any game or amusement therein "" you can't get around that

 

in the famous words of Forest Gump " That enough on this Subject "

 

hope that explains the Tennessee Law and caches placement

 

Happy Trails

 

Joe

In my town, the only fires that are allowed are "recreational fires". So if I'm burning trash or leaves, I have to make darned sure I'm having fun doing it. If I'm not having any fun geocaching, can I then cache in their cemeteries? I do have a bad day now and then.
Link to comment

As a cacher who lives in the same area as JoeGPS and one of the TN Reviewers I have spoken to both on this subject. The law is about 100 years old and no one has ever been convicted under it. Hardly anybody outside of caching knows it exists. My understanding is a cacher stumbled across the law and brought it up to the reviewers and Groundspeak. After much debate it was decided, as Joe stated, to let existing ones stand and archive them only if there is a problem. however new ones would be prohibited until the law was changed. Who wants to be the first one prosecuted under that law? If this law has not been tested in court than we cannot say how the court would apply it to private or public cemeteries (my understanding is under TN law any cemetery must be open for the public to visit no matter who owns the land it is on, so maybe all are public?). So who wants to test the law in court?

 

As for the 528 foot rule. At first caches were published if they were anywhere outside of the cemetery. But some cachers decided to play games. Move it after publication, lie to the reviewer about the cemetery bounds, etc. So because of these few bad apples we all have to move further away. Don't blame the reviewer who is trying to keep our game legal and in good standing with the authorities, blame the ones who refuse to play within the guidelines.

 

Instead work with the reviewer. I know The Seanachie and TNCacher, both of those guys will bend over backwards to help you get your cache published. But if you fight them, try to pull tricks, or throw a fit (I am not saying you were but these are things others have done) then they will examine every hide you do with a fine tooth comb. Also you are close enough to the Nashville area (my mother was FTF on your hide and I have four caches in your area) to come to an event and meet both Joe and The Seanachie. Talk to them face to face and get there advice on how to make your hide work.

 

To answer another question on here, No the legislators were not geocachers. But some cachers from Jackson and Memphis worked with them to try to get the law changed. It just didn't work out.

 

Well said. I am not going to argue it, I just wanted to see peoples opinions on why old caches were allowed to stay if it was against the law. Knowing the law has never been enforced, it makes more sense to me why they are still there. I don't want to be the person to test it! I'm not going to take the time to appeal to Groundspeak or try to argue with the reviewer or anything of that nature. I'll just find a new place to hide a cache!

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 3
×
×
  • Create New...