acceptable distance

[+Muggle B]

I was just wondering if there is an acceptable distance you can put a cache from ground zero, I know some times caches wander away, but Im talking about a newly placed one, can you place it far from GZ to make it harder, or is there an acceptable distance?

 

I found a mystery cache once where the cache was a good 50' off GZ

 

just wondering what the "rules" are, I couldn't find anything, so I thought I would ask here.

 

thankx

Muggle B

[+BulldogBlitz]

traditional cache... supposed to be AT gz +/- accuracy of GPSr

 

puzzle cache was "off" but not likely. it probably was "on" but you didnt' work the puzzle and they had the listed co-ordinates too close to the real co-ordinates.

[+tozainamboku]

The guidelines state

The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache.

So a traditional caches should be listed with the coordinates as accurately as possible. Intentional placing a traditional caches some distance from the posted coordinates would not be per the "rules".

 

Multi-caches and Unknown (puzzle caches) may be any distance from the posted coordinates. For puzzles the guidelines say

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

For Multi-caches there is generally something to find at the posted coordinates, usually the coordinates of the next stage or something used to determine the location of the next stage.

 

Remember also that for all caches

GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions.

So when placing multi-cache or puzzles there should be at least on stage in the hunt where you could enter coordinates in you GPS and go to that that location to find either the cache or some other object that you will need to find the cache. Edited June 23, 2010 by tozainamboku

[+dorqie]

I had a traditional cache of mine migrate about 20'. I can see how it would happen.

However, I once plugged a number in to my final wrong when I was hunting a puzzle cache, and it took me about 50' from where I should have been.

I just consider mnyself lucky it was only a minor screw up, and I didn't put the co-ords on the other side of town.

[+StarBrand]

The general accuracy of our handheld units is somewhere around 15 to 25 feet under most conditions. When you consider your possible error plus the hiders possible error - it would not surprise me to have to search 50 feet from where my unit says it should be at least once in a while.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

A cache may migrate, but when placed it should be at the most accurate coordinates you can derive.

 

Intentionally putting a cache off-coordinate to somehow be cute or tricky is nothing but sadly misguided unless it is identified and listed as an off-set cache.

Edited June 23, 2010 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+roziecakes]

A cache may migrate, but when placed it should be at the most accurate coordinates you can derive.

 

Intentionally putting a cache off-coordinate to somehow be cute or tricky is nothing but sadly misguided unless it is identified and listed as an off-set cache.

 

+1 I was going to say something similar... but the Alabama Rambler said it much better.

[+Muggle B]

Thankx for all the responses. Im not claiming that this cache placer put them off, I was just wondering if I should expand my search.

 

Can traditional caches take you to GZ and from there you can see a key element to where the cache is, but the actual place of the cache is not at the posted cords?

 

here is the cache im talkin about if your curious

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ef-5bd305831f5e

[+power69]

The general accuracy of our handheld units is somewhere around 15 to 25 feet under most conditions. When you consider your possible error plus the hiders possible error - it would not surprise me to have to search 50 feet from where my unit says it should be at least once in a while.

and if it was hid with an iphone, make that 100 feet.

[+Isonzo Karst]

I'd assume that the cache is under the bridge (I looked at the sat view, + the wading attribute). Just being near or under such a structure will introduce a lot of signal bounce.

 

All the steel/ concrete references in the write up certainly suggest a heckuva camo job is possible.

 

I'd assume the coords were the best the cache owner could get, but also understand that (assuming I'm right about "under") that best coords may have quite a lot of wiggle room

 

 

iPhone coords +- one half mile, but that's not the issue here....

[+Harry Dolphin]

I found a traditional cache where GZ was at a corner post of a fence. Lift the cap, written inside is 'Try again.' The cache was under a different fence post cap, about 50' away. That just isn't right for a traditional cache! It should have been listed as a mystery. To compund the problem, there were two containers with logs. One at the bottom of the first fence post, and the second in the seond fence post. Three of us were searching... It sounds as though someone moved the container to ground zero, and the owner replaced the container at the final, not knowing that.

[Whichwaydoigo]

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QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 23 2010, 07:28 AM) 4376817[/snapback]

I was just wondering if there is an acceptable distance you can put a cache from ground zero, I know some times caches wander away, but Im talking about a newly placed one, can you place it far from GZ to make it harder, or is there an acceptable distance?

 

I found a mystery cache once where the cache was a good 50' off GZ

 

just wondering what the "rules" are, I couldn't find anything, so I thought I would ask here.

 

thankx

Muggle B

Who are you trying to confuse, the good guys or the bad guys? If you've found a cache 50' from GZ, don't you suppose a bad guy could do the same thing with yours?

[+narcissa]

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QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 23 2010, 08:28 AM) 4376817[/snapback]

I was just wondering if there is an acceptable distance you can put a cache from ground zero, I know some times caches wander away, but Im talking about a newly placed one, can you place it far from GZ to make it harder, or is there an acceptable distance?

 

No. No. No. No. No.

 

If you want to make a cache "harder," then use clever camo, or design some sort of multi or puzzle that requires some extra work. A traditional geocache should be at the stated coordinates.

[+zakthemaster]

For any cache ground zero should be exactly where the cache is, but depending on tree cover, gps sensitivity, accuracy of the gps, etc. your could be saying that ground zero is 10', 50', 70', etc. away from where the cache is. Also the sensitivity of the cache owners gps and accuracy of their gps at the time they obtained the coordinates could affect where ground zero is said to be.

 

About puzzle caches.

The cache usually is not at the posted coordinates. But for the acceptable distance from the posted coordinates the cache can be is here in a quote from the Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines.

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles (2-3 km) away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of trackables that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.

[knowschad]

That is a seldom|seen cache. I've never hunted over there, but I do know that he is very well respected hider in that area. I very much doubt that his coordinates are bad. Much more likely that its just a really good hide. A 3 difficulty, unspecified size hide on or near a trestle, with phrases like "In the process of building it" and his grandfather "teaching inmates of Waupun State Prison how to weld and craft ornamental iron"... maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I'm guessing this may be a very well crafted hide.

[+Muggle B]

thankx again for all the replys!

Im still new at all this and so all your experience is helping me.

 

This IS a Seldom Seen cache, so I know im facing a tough hide. And I would trust that he knows what he is doing having placed a good 200 caches already.

 

but my guess is since he has stumped over 10 people with 1000+ finds, I think its more like a 5 star.

[knowschad]

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QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 25 2010, 10:42 AM) 4378873[/snapback]

thankx again for all the replys!

Im still new at all this and so all your experience is helping me.

 

This IS a Seldom Seen cache, so I know im facing a tough hide. And I would trust that he knows what he is doing having placed a good 200 caches already.

 

but my guess is since he has stumped over 10 people with 1000+ finds, I think its more like a 5 star.

 

Nawww... not a 5 star difficulty:

 

GCQ1EM has stumped 41 so far, and it has a difficulty rating of 3

GCQR7W has stumped 187 so far, it even it isn't rated a 5 difficulty

GCVQCN is rated a 5 difficulty, but it has so far accumulated a whomping 205 DNFs

GC1764C is rated a 5 difficulty, but it has not yet been found, after 123 DNFs

[+briansnat]

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QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 25 2010, 11:42 AM) 4378873[/snapback]

thankx again for all the replys!

Im still new at all this and so all your experience is helping me.

 

This IS a Seldom Seen cache, so I know im facing a tough hide. And I would trust that he knows what he is doing having placed a good 200 caches already.

 

but my guess is since he has stumped over 10 people with 1000+ finds, I think its more like a 5 star.

 

Let me assure you that placing a lot of caches does not mean that someone knows what he is doing.

[+humboldt flier]

--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 25 2010, 11:42 AM) 4378873[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

thankx again for all the replys!

Im still new at all this and so all your experience is helping me.

 

This IS a Seldom Seen cache, so I know im facing a tough hide. And I would trust that he knows what he is doing having placed a good 200 caches already.

 

but my guess is since he has stumped over 10 people with 1000+ finds, I think its more like a 5 star.

 

Let me assure you that placing a lot of caches does not mean that someone knows what he is doing.

 

Amen to that.

Some years ago there were a group of cachers in the Sacramento, Calif area that hid all caches in an offset manner without so indicating on the cache pages. ( The Sacramento Style ) Fortunately, that group has moved on and their caches have all died off.

 

There are, however, a subset of folks who seem to feel that co-ords. from Google earth are a good substitute for " boots on the ground, GPS'r in hand and co-ord. averaging "

Edited June 25, 2010 by humboldt flier

[+thedeadpirate]

Let me assure you that placing a lot of caches does not mean that someone knows what he is doing.

Further let us assure you that having over 1,000 finds does not mean you are good at finding anything over at 1/1.

[Skippermark]

Bad coordinates don't make a cache hard. They just make people look in the wrong spot.

[knowschad]

Bad coordinates don't make a cache hard. They just make people look in the wrong spot.

+1. Its looking in the wrong spot that makes a cache hard.

 

 

[+dfx]

Its looking in the wrong spot that makes a cache hard.

technically it doesn't make the cache hard, it only makes it hard to find.

 

 

 

 

maybe GS should add a new selection box to the cache submission page:

 

what did you use to obtain the coordinates?

• google
  
• iphone
  
• other GPS receiver
  

and automatically archive the listing when one of the first two options were selected

[+-cheeto-]

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QUOTE(Muggle B @ Jun 23 2010, 09:47 PM) 4377596[/snapback]

Thankx for all the responses. Im not claiming that this cache placer put them off, I was just wondering if I should expand my search.

 

Can traditional caches take you to GZ and from there you can see a key element to where the cache is, but the actual place of the cache is not at the posted cords?

 

here is the cache im talkin about if your curious

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...ef-5bd305831f5e

 

Muggle B - Since I'm from the area you cache in and have dnf'ed the cache in question and found probably more than 100 seldom|seen caches here are a few things for you to consider:

 

1. Perhaps you should start using a GPS to geocache. Just a suggestion. (for the rest of the Groundspeak forum regulars, this cacher finds all caches using mechanisms other than a GPS) at least that's proudly proclaimed in many cache logs. While it won't likely provide anymore help on this particular cache, it's just a suggestion to help improve your ability to find geocaches.

 

2. If seldom seen wanted it to be a puzzle cache it would be a puzzle cache. This is a traditional cache hidden at the posted coordinates. Likely the only puzzle here is, what kind of container did he craft specifically for this location.

 

3. # of finds does not matter a hill of beans, both in regards to the cache owner or the list of folks who have dnf'ed this cache. There are cacher's in this list who are good friends with seldom seen and have spoken to him personally regarding their dnf experiences on this cache.

 

4. Please visit www.wi-geocaching.com and become a member of the WGA (Wisconsin Geocaching Association) if you are not already. The WGA has State & Local forums and you can meet other cacher's in your community. Perhaps you could use the WGA forums to get together with a bunch of other cacher's to group hunt?

 

5. This cache is pure evil.

[+niraD]

5. This cache is pure evil.

Then why is it only 3 stars?

[+-cheeto-]

5. This cache is pure evil.

Then why is it only 3 stars?

 

I agree it is probably underrated on the difficulty.

[+seldom|seen]

5. This cache is pure evil.

Then why is it only 3 stars?

 

I agree it is probably underrated on the difficulty.

 

It's a three star because that's what I feel the difficulty was at the time I placed it. Sometimes these thing are hard to gauge until the cache has been active for a while. I can see now that the D rating needs to go up a tad.

 

As far as the question of accuracy goes, I will make a few points. First I never intentionally place a cache any distance from the posted cords or solved cords just to throw people off. If there is any accuracy issues, it derives from my GPS. Secondly, I respond to any comments about my caches being found any distance greater than 30 feet, first by confirming it is still where I placed it and then my modifying cords if I trust the field reports. There are times when one cacher will say, "we found it 60' from posted cords" and that will be immediately followed by "cords were dead on" so, as many have expressed above, there is some variability and that's part of the sport. After all, if the cords were always dead on, accurate to 5', there wouldn't much sport in the hunt save clever camo. Lastly, I welcome coordinate posts from any cacher who truly believes the accuracy of the location in is question, but under 30', I don't need to know that.

 

As far as attributes go, many cachers in the are know I like to have fun with those icons on many of my puzzle caches. They do not always represent true attributes. In this case, I have a "May require wading" and a "dangerous area" both of which are accurate. The key word for the first is "may" and the validity of the second was confirmed yesterday when Sagasu drew blood looking for it. NOW, understand, I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO THAT FAR! and Dave should know better, but there are some hazards to be mindful of.

 

The question I have about this entire thread and the asker of the initial question, is how can you even be certain you're on GZ, if you aren't using a GPS to zero in on it? Are you printing maps using Google Earth, Terrabrowser or some other mapping program? Posting questions to this GC forum that put in question the cache placing practices of someone who's been around the block a few times by someone who is openly circumventing the basic tenants is, well, a little beyond the pale.

[+Muggle B]

Thankx for responding Alex.

 

I am NOT saying that you put this cache off the cords, or questioning your practices I was just wondering the basic rules of traditional caches, and it came up after not being able to find this cache.

 

I am still pretty new at this (little over a month) so I have a lot to learn yet about rules and ratings.

 

As for me not using a GPS, I don't, I only use Google Maps and the geocaching website maps and hints. So far ive been doing well with it. But your right, I can't get a true GZ, just the basic area. I like the added difficulty in finding them muggle style. To each their own.

 

Im sorry if I upset anybody in this thread, thats not what it was about, my main question was answered long ago, and its that traditional caches are placed at the posted cords.

 

thankx