cache at a church?

[+woody_and_pip]

I love geocaching and so do my kids. I have noticed that some of the caches that we have found have been put there by different groups such as 4-H, Girl Scouts, and even school Geography classes. I think these are wonderful.

 

Now on to the question.

 

I have been kicking it over in my mind at different times for our church's youth group to place a geocache on our church's property and I was wondering how appropriate it would be and if it broke any of the rules of hiding and placing a cache. In order to sell it to the church for permission, I am certain that they would ask that it contain at least some religious related articles such as swag pertaining to the religion and maybe some suitable verses that describes the search and finding. I know that it is frowned upon to advertise a business or organization but would it be OK as long as it doesn't actually refer to going to a church or even post the church times?

 

I know that there are some caches that are close to some businesses that geocachers may go into after they make a find, I think that this would fall into that category.

 

Any input would be appreciated. Believe me, this would be done in good taste and zero pressure on any would be finders. I just think it could be something that could be fun for the youth group to put together and monitor it occasionally.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Heh. There are a few out there.

 

I don't much like acting stupid in a churchyard, but that's a popular series here.

[+ChileHead]

You can put in most anything for swag that you want within reason:

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

 

Just don't make the cache page itself an advertisement for your church or religion.

 

I'd rather find a cache at a church than a Walmart.

[+Pork King]

... In order to sell it to the church for permission, I am certain that they would ask that it contain at least some religious related articles such as swag pertaining to the religion and maybe some suitable verses that describes the search and finding.

 

I would have no problem with it, but I have known a few caches to be archived or not published (including one of my own) because of religious messages.

 

The guidelines state:

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

[+J the Goat]

Just keep it off the cache page and I don't see why you couldn't do it.

[+jeepdelfuego]

I have no problem with them, but some people have gotten bent out of shape over religous tracts.

[+woody_and_pip]

Thanks for the fast replies. I did want to get it across that this would be in no part an advertisement for the Church or that specific church. I would make the cache page the same as all the others with perhaps a hint that would make people realize that it really was hidden on the church property so they wouldn't be trespassing. Articles of swag placed there by the kids don't have to be obviously religious either. It could be any common everyday item that can have some sort of meaning to the kid.

 

Again, thank you for your replies, they are good food for thought.

[+Printess Caroline]

I did a nice mystery cache located at a church that required cachers to determine the final's location by reading information about their historical bell tower. If your youth group were to put together a cache that highlighted the history of your church, I think that your church would probably approve. A reviewer wouldn't mind that as long as the information couldn't be interpreted as a solicitation.

 

As far as swag is concerned, I would probably request something a bit broader in theme like leaving something of a spiritual nature; however, the best approach may be to leave a micro in which there would be little chance of the kiddos finding a possibly inappropriate item during their maintenance visits.

[+Printess Caroline]

Here's a link to that cache: Bell Tower

[+woody_and_pip]

The Bell Tower looks like a fun one.

 

Does anyone know if there is an Official of some sort that I can ask and get some clearer guidelines and advice from? Like someone from Groundspeak? I want to be prepared when I talk to the pastor and the youth group leader and don't want to be shot down after it is all said and done and disappoint the kids.

 

I am thinking that I can probably get by with swag that is more everyday available but has a more obscure spiritual meaning. I kind of like that, it can make the kids work a bit harder and use the brain a bit more.

[+Chrysalides]

Does anyone know if there is an Official of some sort that I can ask and get some clearer guidelines and advice from?

Look up a cache near you. See who is the reviewer who published the cache. Type up the cache page as you would like to have it published, DO NOT select "this cache is active", send the URL to your reviewer and ask them their opinion.

 

There's no guideline regarding religious swag, but as noted by others, there are some who seem upset by it.

 

If you do leave religious swag in there, do consider that paper does not survive for long in geocaches.

 

Off topic :

 

As for proselytizing, I think that are more effective ways of going about it than leaving tracts in random places. But as stated above, there's certainly no guidelines against it.

[hoosier guy]

I kniow a few cachers in local churches that have placed caches on the grounds. Their pastors/priests don't mind.

[+niraD]

As others have said, send email to one of your local reviewers if you want assurance that the location will be okay, but in general, it should be fine as long as you avoid violating the guidelines against solicitation. I've found a number of caches on church property.

 

As a practical matter, keep in mind that churches can be busy places at times, with lots of kids. Make sure the church staff knows about the cache, and consider the hide location carefully.

[+geodarts]

I would make the cache page the same as all the others with perhaps a hint that would make people realize that it really was hidden on the church property so they wouldn't be trespassing.

 

I would make this more than a "hint." If a cache is placed on private property, including a church, it helps to know that it is there with permission. For me, it makes a big difference in deciding whether I would try to find it. Also, there might be times when it is better not to search on church property -- I probably would not want to be poking about during services. In general, I would try to make sure that the cache is set up so that things work smoothly for both the church and the cachers who come there.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

... In order to sell it to the church for permission, I am certain that they would ask that it contain at least some religious related articles such as swag pertaining to the religion and maybe some suitable verses that describes the search and finding.

 

I would have no problem with it, but I have known a few caches to be archived or not published (including one of my own) because of religious messages.

 

The guidelines state:

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

As is the case for most of the guidelines, it's all in the interpretation. The guideline states "caches perceived to be posted...". It doesn't say anything about swag, or the description. If there is a perception that the caches was placed for religious reasons, it might not be published. Since you're talking about a cache on placed on church property, you'd have to be careful about every other aspect of the cache to avoid the perception that it's being placed for religious reasons. Religious swag often finds its way into caches but typically that has nothing to do with where the cache was located.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Yep.

 

Swag can have an agenda. The cache page cannot.

 

Religious messages in the cache would not likely prevent the cache from being published.

 

An agenda espoused on the cache page likely would prevent the cache from being published.

[+nativtxn]

I have a cache at our church. It's a small church and just about everyone knows I'm a Geocacher. I asked the Pastor and a few of the Elders for permission to hide on there in the woods surrounding the property. It's a personal cache and is not filled with religious propaganda, and I stated that in the notes to the Reviewer when I posted the cache.

 

I know some people don't like caches at churches, but don't let that stop you. You just can't please everyone. I personally don't care for McDonald's, so I just pass them on by. I don't bad-mouth them though-it's just a wasted effort. It's a choice to be crabby about things and I think some people get off on it.

 

Place your cache as long as you have permission and you let several folks in the congregation know it's there so they won't be upset if someone is searching the grounds. I think it's a great group activity for the youth!

[hoosier guy]

I have a cache at our church. It's a small church and just about everyone knows I'm a Geocacher. I asked the Pastor and a few of the Elders for permission to hide on there in the woods surrounding the property. It's a personal cache and is not filled with religious propaganda, and I stated that in the notes to the Reviewer when I posted the cache.

 

I know some people don't like caches at churches, but don't let that stop you. You just can't please everyone. I personally don't care for McDonald's, so I just pass them on by. I don't bad-mouth them though-it's just a wasted effort. It's a choice to be crabby about things and I think some people get off on it.

 

Place your cache as long as you have permission and you let several folks in the congregation know it's there so they won't be upset if someone is searching the grounds. I think it's a great group activity for the youth!

 

Hey N.T. greetings from the Hoosier State. Good point on the youth but ya know our men's group liked it too. Lot more fun than yet another pancake breakfast!

 

See ya on the trail,

 

HG

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Yep.

 

Swag can have an agenda. The cache page cannot.

 

Religious messages in the cache would not likely prevent the cache from being published.

 

An agenda espoused on the cache page likely would prevent the cache from being published.

 

Wouldn't religious messages in the cache as starter swag, plus the fact that it is placed on church property create a perception that the cache is promoting an agenda, even *if* the cache listing or title mentioned nothing about religion?

 

Personally, I think that, assuming proper permission is obtain, church property would probably be a nice place to find a cache. The area would often be well maintainer, serence, and just a nice place to sit and sign a log.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Yep.

 

Swag can have an agenda. The cache page cannot.

 

Religious messages in the cache would not likely prevent the cache from being published.

 

An agenda espoused on the cache page likely would prevent the cache from being published.

 

Wouldn't religious messages in the cache as starter swag, plus the fact that it is placed on church property create a perception that the cache is promoting an agenda, even *if* the cache listing or title mentioned nothing about religion?

 

Personally, I think that, assuming proper permission is obtain, church property would probably be a nice place to find a cache. The area would often be well maintainer, serence, and just a nice place to sit and sign a log.

Nope. The swag does not have to be mentioned at all on the cache page. It's not relevant. Now if the cache page says "Be sure to pick up one of our religious flyers from the cache and be saved!", then that likely would not be published.

 

And just being on the property of the church does not constitute an agenda.

[+bobdammit]

There shouldnt be an issue as long as this cacher doesnt pay you a visit:

But then again, if you are going to go to a cache AT a church, you should expect what you will find.

 

I never understood why the Anti-religion isnt an agenda, but thats a discussion for another day.

Edited June 15, 2010 by bobdammit

[+NYPaddleCacher]

Yep.

 

Swag can have an agenda. The cache page cannot.

 

Religious messages in the cache would not likely prevent the cache from being published.

 

An agenda espoused on the cache page likely would prevent the cache from being published.

 

Wouldn't religious messages in the cache as starter swag, plus the fact that it is placed on church property create a perception that the cache is promoting an agenda, even *if* the cache listing or title mentioned nothing about religion?

 

Personally, I think that, assuming proper permission is obtain, church property would probably be a nice place to find a cache. The area would often be well maintainer, serence, and just a nice place to sit and sign a log.

Nope. The swag does not have to be mentioned at all on the cache page. It's not relevant. Now if the cache page says "Be sure to pick up one of our religious flyers from the cache and be saved!", then that likely would not be published.

 

And just being on the property of the church does not constitute an agenda.

 

You seem to be missing my point. I know that the swag doesn't need to be mentioned. All I am saying is that if the cache is located on church property, that is one data point that might suggest that it might be placed to promote an agenda. The CO might have to take extra care to make sure there is nothing else associated with the cache that might increase the perception that there is an agenda involved.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I'm not missing the point.

 

Your question was "Wouldn't religious messages in the cache as starter swag, plus the fact that it is placed on church property create a perception that the cache is promoting an agenda, even *if* the cache listing or title mentioned nothing about religion?"

 

The answer to that question is "No.".

[+TeamMJ2]

As a youth pastor and new geocacher I'm not sure how much weight my opinion has, but heck, here goes. Logistically, there doesn't seem to be a real definitive problem. On the cache page, you could just mention that you have permission for the cache to be on private property. You wouldn't even have to say that it's a church or hint at it.

 

But in regards to leaving religious swag...i get sorta uneasy. As a proud, evangelical Christian I have no problem sharing by beliefs with others...when appropriate. However, I'm also painfully aware of the ultra and maybe even over sensitivity some people have toward religion and especially evangelical Christianity. Even though I think your motives are probably innocent and harmless, I would hate to see a bent out shape geocacher with an axe to grind leave some nasty note or log about your church or Christians in general on the cache site. I guess all I'm trying to say brother is be careful your actions don't needlessly offend people.

[hoosier guy]

"I would hate to see a bent out shape geocacher with an axe to grind leave some nasty note or log about your church or Christians in general on the cache site."

 

Too late, it has already been done several times.

[+Trucker Lee]

Place it, but be sure to mention "cache placed with permission of church council". That should be sufficient to let cachers know that certain times of the week may not be the best of times to search, that you do have the proper permission, and whom you got the permission from.

 

As to the swag, tracts that I have seen in caches soon get soggy unless enclosed in plastic. Without being offensive, other items I have seen in caches include handmade crosses of wood and hook stitch, plastic children's necklace with cross, and once, a rosary. Of course, keep in mind that you will also have others leave items there, and will need to keep a watchful eye on the swag for proper decorum.

[+roziecakes]

Yes, permission is very important! We have one hide in front of a local church, as it is a stop on a historical walking tour of our town. In our case, we needed to get permission from the local historical society, and we did; for placing our caches on the historical walking tour (they get a lot of traffic, which the historical society loves).

 

On our cache page we mention some brief history of the church, and information for folks to complete the entire walking tour if they wish. I agree with previous posters to avoid promoting attending the church itself on the cache page.

 

GC24905

[+Wacka]

A local cache is at a Mormon Church. It is in a tree (haven't found the cache yet) next to a softball diamond on the church property. The cache owner stated he got permission from the bishop. No problems with it. Just a good hide I couldn't find on my first attempt.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

"I would hate to see a bent out shape geocacher with an axe to grind leave some nasty note or log about your church or Christians in general on the cache site."

 

Too late, it has already been done several times.

Not a problem, go for it!

 

I've hidden caches at churches (my now-adopted-out cache 'East Berlin' is a magnetic key holder inside the church bell mounted on a pedestal near the front steps).

 

I've found numerous caches at churches. The Steeplechase series in TN is 100 caches at churches with steeples all around Nashville, for instance.

 

You have made it clear that it won't have a religious agenda.

 

Hide it and they will come!

 

As a Southern Baptist Chaplain I can tell you that you will get some flack from some whom even the thought of religion scares into a case of the leaping fantods. Their criticism of and resistance to religion in any form can lead them to some quite bizarre behavior. As the cache owner you can ask anyone who posts an inappropriate log to edit it or you can delete it.

[+CCCooperAgency]

James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

 

Yet Psalm 53:1 describes those man that does not believe God.

 

Curiously no one gets bent out of shape whenever there's a series "glorifying" Hell or mocking Christ.

Equal time.

 

"Solicitation" and "agenda" are strong terms because intent needs proven.

Those who know God realize it is a personal decision offered FREELY and the price was already paid

at the Cross. So hence it is NOT a solicitation because there is no exchange of money.

Take it or leave it but again it's a choice.

[+Panther&Pine]

James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

 

Yet Psalm 53:1 describes those man that does not believe God.

 

Curiously no one gets bent out of shape whenever there's a series "glorifying" Hell or mocking Christ.

Equal time.

 

"Solicitation" and "agenda" are strong terms because intent needs proven.

Those who know God realize it is a personal decision offered FREELY and the price was already paid

at the Cross. So hence it is NOT a solicitation because there is no exchange of money.

Take it or leave it but again it's a choice.

???????

 

I'd love a historic churches multi around my area, but I doubt that is what your trying to say.

 

*Wanders off pondering a "Stations of the Cross" series.*

 

*Note, I'm not overly religious. I don't mean to pick a fight, I'm just wondering what someone who is religious might think of a "Stations of the Cross" Series.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Everyone is reminded that this thread is not about religion. The merits or lack of merit of one or more religions are off-topic and are not to be discussed in this thread. There are other avenues for those discussions.

 

Thanks.

[+popokiiti]

We found a cache at a lych gate to a church. The only thing there was the history of lych gates and this one in particular, nothing about religion in any way, shape or form. I would think that a chat with the official of the church is in order prior to placing this cache on their property.

[+Marwood5]

I just placed a cache at the church where our Scout Troop is chartered. The cache has a Scout theme and is placed with permission of the church board. I've cached in church parking lots before and I found a benchmark in a Jehovah Witnesses lot before. I say if you have permission let er rip!

[dementedtribe]

Our two caches are at area churches. We just gave the history of the church on the cache page and times when there are likely to be people around. Both were published without problems. The second cache of the series of three isn't up and running yet. The church is on private property and permission to place a cache was revoked at the last minute. So, now we are working on converting the traditional cache to a puzzle cache and finding a hiding spot fairly close by using info off the sign to give the coords for the cache spot. Our two caches have been up for about 2 months and we are close to 20 finds on each.