Ohio geocaching:The dark side

[+TeamGuisinger]

OK, since the Groundspeak rep told me to hash this out on the forums, here I am. In a nutshell, we have a FTF chaser that breaks all the rules. Cemeteries after dark, cussing in logs, berating other cachers, and logging caches that they weren't present to sign . These are all justification for log deletion according to the rules published on the website. This cacher also provokes human responses when asked about such matters, but then privately contacts friends to attack those asking. Once they get everyone involved upset about what they did, they delete their logs and contact Groundspeak to report them for abuse. What gives?

[+brslk]

OK, since the Groundspeak rep told me to hash this out on the forums, here I am. In a nutshell, we have a FTF chaser that breaks all the rules. Cemeteries after dark, cussing in logs, berating other cachers, and logging caches that they weren't present to sign . These are all justification for log deletion according to the rules published on the website. This cacher also provokes human responses when asked about such matters, but then privately contacts friends to attack those asking. Once they get everyone involved upset about what they did, they delete their logs and contact Groundspeak to report them for abuse. What gives?

 

And the rest of the story is?

 

(sorry, didn't mean to sound rude but as you know... there are two sides to every story and it seems TPTB once again threw someone to the wolves)

Edited May 4, 2010 by brslk

[+TeamGuisinger]

I will only post facts here. No arguing, no bickering, no degrading of character, only facts. A night cache was listed, and a single cacher went after FTF during the day. That cacher signed their usual caching partners name in the log, while they were 10 miles away, trying for other FTFs. The owner of the cache deleted the logs of both, because he wanted it to be done at night, like intended by the noctournal listing title. He's new, and didn't know about ALRs, so GS sent him an email, and told him of his error. The FTF logs returned. When the topic of cheating showed up on the cache listing, lots of people had something to say. Most of it was from the caching community who is local to the cache, and a few others who agreed. The only ones opposed, live 80 miles away from the cache, and the only reason they became involved, is because they ones who cheated, contacted them and involved them. After sending private emails berating all the local cachers for having an opinion on how the game is played, they posted mean spirited notes on the cache page. They deleted them almost immediately. When a factual response was given on the cache page, they contacted GS, and reported everyone who posted notes. GS sent out emails warning everyone to edit the bickering out of their logs, so that's what happened. Today, the owner of the cache received an email from GS, informing them that if they didn't delete every note from their cache page, GS would archive it. The last word from GS said that anyone who posted a note is being watched, and will be banned if anything is ever mentioned in another log. Why is GS so gung ho to let certain people cheat, just because they lie well?

[jholly]

OK, since the Groundspeak rep told me to hash this out on the forums, here I am.

 

Heard that one before.

 

In a nutshell, we have a FTF chaser that breaks all the rules. Cemeteries after dark, cussing in logs, berating other cachers, and logging caches that they weren't present to sign .

A little shaky on the cemeteries after dark, cussing ... I'll give you that one, berating other caches, well, maybe, depends on what was said. Logging caches that weren't present to sign? Would love to hear this story. You mean you lied to the reviewer about the cache being active when you submitted the cache?

 

These are all justification for log deletion according to the rules published on the website.

yes and no.

 

This cacher also provokes human responses when asked about such matters, but then privately contacts friends to attack those asking. Once they get everyone involved upset about what they did, they delete their logs and contact Groundspeak to report them for abuse. What gives?

 

I'll wait until Paul Harvey comes around with page 4.

 

Oh, I forgot .....

 

 

and

 

Edited May 4, 2010 by jholly

[+TeamGuisinger]

TPTB?

[+TeamGuisinger]

No, this isn't a post for drama. I WANT the reviewers to explain how this happens. Someone cheats, and the ones trying to help a brand new cacher get it resolved are the ones who are being threatened with banishment? Granted, it didn't happen in the most elegant of ways, but the intentions were always about fairness and sportsmanship, nothing else.

[+Max and 99]

I think it's outright cheating to get your name signed on a log when you were 10 miles away finding another cache. A similar thing happened to me when I got a FTF and someone who wasn't even in the neighborhood when we got FTF claimed it also. Cheating! But allowed, since their name was on the physical cache log.

 

But you can't tell cachers to only find a cache in the day, or at night. I understand that to be an ALR.

 

I totally understand that the local cachers were trying to be supportive on the cache page. That's really a shame how it turned out. I sure hope this all works out, and fairly for everyone.

[4wheelin_fool]

It doesnt matter if they deleted their logs to cover what they did, as Groundspeak can still see them.

 

I suppose that both sides have been warned, and that you only heard about the warnings from one side.

 

If the cachers were trying to punish the miscreants, I don't think that it would really be helpful anyway. Its probably best to get them to modify their behaviour, and let bygones be bygones.

Edited May 4, 2010 by 4wheelin_fool

[jholly]

No, this isn't a post for drama. I WANT the reviewers to explain how this happens. Someone cheats, and the ones trying to help a brand new cacher get it resolved are the ones who are being threatened with banishment? Granted, it didn't happen in the most elegant of ways, but the intentions were always about fairness and sportsmanship, nothing else.

 

The reviewers have nothing to do with this, so don't go dragging them through the mud. This is between the lackeys at Groundspeak and the people involved.

 

Groundspeak and most cache owners don't tolerate forum type posting in cache logs. If they are more than a couple deleting them is the right thing to do.

 

But the explanaitions are a bit short on what is going on. The facts, the true facts will never be posted. Nor should they. Life happens, time to move along. Some folks play baseball, some play Calvin ball.

[+Knight2000]

Personalities. What can you do?

 

Some people take those FTF seriously and will bend and break rules to get it. That coupled with the deletion of a log is enough to really irritate them.

 

I don't care about FTF as its just another find to me. I'm not a number counter so that's no biggie either. But I will say that I have been irritated when a log is deleted. When it comes right down to it, what can you do? (I admit I briefly thought of deleting every one of their logs from all of our caches but that certainly wouldn't make the situation any better and it would be just as childish as their deletion of my log. )

 

There a cliques/personalities everywhere in life. Personality A disliked B and then A will pick on anything they can that B says/does. It all goes back to -What can you do?

 

I suppose venting is nice. You can hash it out in the local forums. Unless it is so flagrant that GS bans this member(s) then it's a tough situation. Kill 'em with kindness maybe?

 

BTW- while I have never searched for any of your hides I hear they are legendary. I try to have trickier hides but I'd love to find your secret book of cache hiding ideas.

[+cx1]

 

But you can't tell cachers to only find a cache in the day, or at night. I understand that to be an ALR.

 

 

I don't believe thats quite true. Some places like public parks and some cemeteries are only open during the day. Caching in those places after hours would be illegal so requiring a cacher not to break the law would not be an ALR.

[+The Herd]

One of the things that so many of us love about caching is also one of the things that drives so many people batty. That being: it's a game. It's intended to be played the way that you want it to be played. Sadly, there are people that are going to do things in a way that you don't agree with, but, there aren't really a lot of rules to geocaching, just "guidelines." Those guidelines being, find the cache, sign the log, swap swag if you want" and that is it. As hard as it may be, the best thing to do would be to just ignore them. If the cache owner has an issue with what is going on, they can delete the log, and continue doing so if they continue to relog. If the cacher becomes a problem, they can contact gc.com about it. The more you bash or attack the cacher on the cache page, the more you are going to get your hand smacked from Groundspeak, as should be. You will never be able to change the way he plays his game, so just ignore it, and hopefully he will see he isn't getting under your skin anymore, and will go away.

Sure, he may claim FTF, but, is it really affecting you in anyway if someone else is signing his name on the cache when he isn't there? Obviously, if someone is already there doing that, you have lost out on your FTF chance anyway. Personally, I don't go for FTFs too often. I'd rather someone else go first, and confirm it's there, coords are good, etc.

[+Knight2000]

TPTB?

The powers that be.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

This sounds like the dramas my daughter used to love to build up with her girl friends, at about age 16. Thank God she grew out of it.

 

Don't pet the sweaty things; if other people's behavior affects your enjoyment of geocaching then they have way too much emotional power over you, and I seriously doubt a Reviewer is going to ride to the rescue... other than to tell y'all to keep it out of the cache logs.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

OK, since the Groundspeak rep told me to hash this out on the forums, here I am. In a nutshell, we have a FTF chaser that breaks all the rules. Cemeteries after dark, cussing in logs, berating other cachers, and logging caches that they weren't present to sign . These are all justification for log deletion according to the rules published on the website. This cacher also provokes human responses when asked about such matters, but then privately contacts friends to attack those asking. Once they get everyone involved upset about what they did, they delete their logs and contact Groundspeak to report them for abuse. What gives?

 

I don't know the whole story so I'll only comment on what is written. Someone else described the antics that a similar FTF hound did as "cheating". While the behaviors themselves might be considered questionable, the fact that they're associated with an attempt to get FTF is irrelevant.. There is no official guideline or rule from Groundspeak regarding First to Find. Any rules or acceptable tactics for finding a cache first are created by those that choose to participate in the FTF game. Neither Groundspeak nor the local reviewer is going to get involved. Now, to address the "rules" that were broken.

 

I know from experience placing a cache near a cemetery that a reviewer will specifcally ask that language be included about the available hours (and to respect those that are using the cemetery for it's intended purpose) in the cache description before it will be published. I have also included language for a cache that was near, but not on private property asking potential finders to stay off the private property. Realistically that's all one can do. If someone chooses to break the law to find a cache there's not really much one can do about it. The problems it can create are more serious then who gets to put FTF in their log. It can cause ill will between land owners and the game of geocaching, creating bans on specific areas (for example, cachers searching after the posted hours in a city park could cause the city to ban all geocaches in a local city park. In the case of the cemetery cache if someone chose to search after dark I'd consider archiving the cache, deleting the logs of those that searched after dark, then ask Groundspeak to lock out the logging.

 

Regard the use of bad language and berating other cachers. This is something that Groundspeak won't tolerate and I know of instances of someone that did it given a "time out" (had their account temporarily banned). I would asked the person posting a log on my cache which did that to edit their log to remove the offensive language or it would be deleted. If they did it again I was report it to Groundspeak.

 

Logging cache where they weren't present to sign falls into the cache owners obligation to manage their cache page to remove bogus logs. It's up to the CO to determine when a log is actually bogus but typically Groundspeak *should* support the deletion of logs of someone that didn't actually find (though the definition of find is not universal).

 

Groundspeak has taken a firm stance on the use of the online logs for anything other than their intended purpose. Using those logs to discuss the behavior of another cachers is outside those bounds. I can understand why GS would ask to CO to delete all logs which were discussion rather than a log which described the experience of finding the cache. As longs as any "discussion" logs remain it would likely cause someone else to continue the discussion in the logs rather than do it somewhere more appropriate (like these forums). I would suggest inviting all those involved (included the cachers accused of violating the rules) to come here to discuss the issue...or just drop the whole issue.

[Keystone]

No, this isn't a post for drama. I WANT the reviewers to explain how this happens. Someone cheats, and the ones trying to help a brand new cacher get it resolved are the ones who are being threatened with banishment? Granted, it didn't happen in the most elegant of ways, but the intentions were always about fairness and sportsmanship, nothing else.

This is not a reviewer issue.

 

I am the reviewer for the territory where the night cache was hidden. I've read the cache page, and I've read the deleted logs. My only comment is that I'm glad that reviewers are not the log police. I am glad that there is a paid staff at Groundspeak to deal with logging disputes.

[+TeamGuisinger]

I guess I should've said, "I would like someone who is "in the know", to explain how to remedy this. Again, this is not about FTF, and not about doing night caches during the day. This is about logging caches that you do not sign. I was trying to give a tiny bit of background on this cacher. I could go on with pages of stories about this cacher and their bad caching habits, from cachers all over Ohio. Many cachers have been negatively affected by them, and several have quit caching all together, because of one cacher. So what is the rule? And why is it so nonspecific? Does the official rule say that you claim smilies for signing the logbook, or does it say that you claim a smiley for getting your name in the logbook? It seems stupid to waste the time to make rules, with loopholes for cheaters.

[+sseegars]

Wow! That guy really gets around. I've seen that same person in South Carolina, North Carolina, and Alabama!

[+TeamGuisinger]

 

The reviewers have nothing to do with this, so don't go dragging them through the mud. This is between the lackeys at Groundspeak and the people involved.

 

Groundspeak and most cache owners don't tolerate forum type posting in cache logs. If they are more than a couple deleting them is the right thing to do.

 

But the explanaitions are a bit short on what is going on. The facts, the true facts will never be posted. Nor should they. Life happens, time to move along. Some folks play baseball, some play Calvin ball.

As far as dragging my reviewer through anything, I would never do that. My reviewer is fair and consistant. There are no surprises, there is no nitpicking. I purposely decided not to involve my reviewer when this all came up.

 

The cache owner was fine with the whole discussion, because he feels wronged...twice.

 

The facts, the true fact were posted, as they should've been, although the last paragraph doesn't make much sense to me.

[GOF and Bacall]

 

Sorry. That didn't come out so well. It says "The only permanent rule in Calvin ball is that you can't play it the same way twice!"

Edited May 5, 2010 by GOF & Bacall

[jholly]

 

Sorry. That didn't come out so well. It says "The only permanent rule in Calvin ball is that you can't play it the same way twice!"

 

Yes, and Calvin has been know to change the rules while the game is being played.

 

And to help along ....

Other kids' games are all such a bore!

They've gotta have rules and they gotta keep score!

Calvinball is better by far!

It's never the same! It's always bizarre!

You don't need a team or a referee!

You know that it's great, 'cause it's named after me!

Edited May 5, 2010 by jholly

[+USMCGecko]

You're playing a game that relies a lot on the honor system. Some people have no honor. FIDO!!!!

[+narcissa]

This game is more fun and less stressful when you realize you can't control how others play the game, and "FTF" is a side game without any official rules.

 

A geocache is a bit like a work of art. Once it's out in the world, people impose what they want to on it, and there's very little you can do about it. They might find it the "wrong" way, they might find it while naked, they might have a friend sign them in. Oh well.

 

If someone's being a deliberately provocative geotroll, the best thing to do is ignore them - entirely. That goes for irl cachers, and forums too. I am still learning how to do this. If there's something occurring that violates guidelines or Groundspeak's terms of service, handle it through the appropriate channels. Don't bother engaging with creeps - you'll just get dragged down.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

This game is more fun and less stressful when you realize you can't control how others play the game...

 

I see this sentiment posted a lot and agree with it, up to a point.

 

There comes a point where how others play the game directly impacts how others may choose to play the game. Some geocachers are in it for the numbers and try to rack up as many finds as possible. If that way of playing the game becomes pervasive in an area eventually easy and typically uninteresting park n grabs saturate an area that there is essentially no room for caches that might be difficult innovative hides, require nice long walks, or large containers with lots of room for swag items and trackables. Similary, I was recently in area which had a very high concentration of puzzle caches. I know that a lot of people don't like puzzles and if someone enjoys power cacheing and such an environment is not conducive to those cachers that enjoy that aspect.

 

Now I know someone is going to say, "just ignore the caches that you don't like and find the ones that you do". That might be fine if you happen to live in an area with hundreds if not thousands of caches of all varieties but we don't all enjoy that luxury. At some level how others play the game is going to impact how others play it.

[+GeoGeeBee]

I will only post facts here. No arguing, no bickering, no degrading of character, only facts. A night cache was listed, and a single cacher went after FTF during the day. That cacher signed their usual caching partners name in the log, while they were 10 miles away, trying for other FTFs. The owner of the cache deleted the logs of both, because he wanted it to be done at night, like intended by the noctournal listing title. He's new, and didn't know about ALRs, so GS sent him an email, and told him of his error. The FTF logs returned. When the topic of cheating showed up on the cache listing, lots of people had something to say. Most of it was from the caching community who is local to the cache, and a few others who agreed. The only ones opposed, live 80 miles away from the cache, and the only reason they became involved, is because they ones who cheated, contacted them and involved them. After sending private emails berating all the local cachers for having an opinion on how the game is played, they posted mean spirited notes on the cache page. They deleted them almost immediately. When a factual response was given on the cache page, they contacted GS, and reported everyone who posted notes. GS sent out emails warning everyone to edit the bickering out of their logs, so that's what happened. Today, the owner of the cache received an email from GS, informing them that if they didn't delete every note from their cache page, GS would archive it. The last word from GS said that anyone who posted a note is being watched, and will be banned if anything is ever mentioned in another log. Why is GS so gung ho to let certain people cheat, just because they lie well?

 

My two cents:

 

Finding a night cache during the day: not prohibited, and certainly not "cheating." It's not something I would do, but it's not something you can delete a log over, either. He found it, he signed the log, he gets to claim it.

 

Signing for another person who was ten miles away: Again, not something I would do. But if a person's name is in the log, I'm not going to delete their online log. But I guess the question is "how do you KNOW the person was ten miles away?" No, wait... an even better question is "Why do you care?"

 

Deleting the notes placed on the cache page: notes on the cache page are not to be used as a discussion forum. That's a long-standing rule.

 

Based on what you have posted, GS is not "gung ho to let certain people cheat," they are enforcing a long-standing rule that says an owner cannot delete a legitimate log. And if the finder's name is in the logbook, it is by definition a legitimate log.

[+mndvs737]

 

There comes a point where how others play the game directly impacts how others may choose to play the game.

 

 

I'd also add there may come a point where how others play the game could directly impact where others are allowed to play the game - a city/county/state/federal agency may place certain parks, cemeteries, or other areas off-limits to future caches and require that current caches be pulled due to individuals ignoring posted hours for access or other regulations.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

 

There comes a point where how others play the game directly impacts how others may choose to play the game.

 

 

I'd also add there may come a point where how others play the game could directly impact where others are allowed to play the game - a city/county/state/federal agency may place certain parks, cemeteries, or other areas off-limits to future caches and require that current caches be pulled due to individuals ignoring posted hours for access or other regulations.

 

Thanks for adding this. I was actually going to mention this in my previous post.

 

Every geocacher is a potential ambassador for the game. If some of them behave in a manner that presents geocaching in a bad light, that is the perception that a land manager that may have heard of it but doesn't know how it's played.

[+wimseyguy]

It's a good thing that those land managers do not look in here to see how we behave at times then.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

It's a good thing that those land managers do not look in here to see how we behave at times then.

 

It would probably be interesting if they did, and I wonder if it would influence the forum behavior of those that participate. In any case, more often than not, when there is a thread about a questionable geocaching practice, generally the prevailing consensus *is* a more favorable view of geocaching then what they might encounter out in the field. If more land managers read the forums they might actually come away with the impression that most geocachers actually *do* care about the environment, respect private property, etc.

[+Lil Devil]

... Again, this is not about FTF, and not about doing night caches during the day. This is about logging caches that you do not sign.

Sorry, I stopped reading the thread at this point, because, who cares if they log caches they didn't sign? There is no award for the most logs. It doesn't affect you. The only person cheated is the person that didn't find the cache. They didn't get to enjoy the fun of finding it.

 

It will only bother you if you let it. Instead, shrug your shoulders and go on with life.

[knowschad]

It's a good thing that those land managers do not look in here to see how we behave at times then.

... or, DO they?

[4wheelin_fool]

... Again, this is not about FTF, and not about doing night caches during the day. This is about logging caches that you do not sign.

Sorry, I stopped reading the thread at this point, because, who cares if they log caches they didn't sign? There is no award for the most logs. It doesn't affect you. The only person cheated is the person that didn't find the cache. They didn't get to enjoy the fun of finding it.

 

It will only bother you if you let it. Instead, shrug your shoulders and go on with life.

 

It's annoying, but it shouldn't be. If someone else signs them in there really is not much you can do about it. If they purposely taunt others about it, then just ignore them.

Edited May 5, 2010 by 4wheelin_fool

[+TeamGuisinger]

So basically, I can start logging all the caches my friends find if I have them sign my name? I can't believe that so many of you care so little, but then again, that's what's wrong with most of the world nowadays. No one cares, it's not their problem, they don't have time, it's not important. How many of you who don't see a problem with this, have quality hides? Something that you spent longer than one day to create? A cache that everyone finds something to like about, one that you put your heart and soul into? Any of you? I do it on every one I hide. I take pride in the location, the container, and any challenge I can work into it. If someone feels the need to steal a smiley for their greedy little numbers infatuation by having someone sign their name in my logbook, I will delete it, and it will stay deleted. I have done it in the past, and I have sent messages along asking them to put my caches on their ignore list. If you have no respect for me and my caches, I don't want you looking for them, let alone finding them. By the way, one of a couple ways I know that one person signed for two people. 2 people drove 70 miles on a FTF run. One was dropped off, and entered the woods at a night cache at 10:30 am(both online logs note the time)and took 4 1/2 hours to complete it. The other was trying for FTFs on three of my own caches. A friend of mine called me to say that two cachers were looking for my new cache at 11:10am on the same day.(the cache is across the street from her house) The DNF log that one cacher left, states that she met the cacher in question at this cache. She also confirmed the time. I also know the cheating cachers physical abilities. I have done this night cache twice myself, and confidently say, there's no way the cheating cacher made it through the terrain involved in this cache. Someone once told me "You'll get nowhere by looking for help on the forums." I'm beginning to believe them.

[jholly]

So basically, I can start logging all the caches my friends find if I have them sign my name? I can't believe that so many of you care so little, but then again, that's what's wrong with most of the world nowadays. No one cares, it's not their problem, they don't have time, it's not important. How many of you who don't see a problem with this, have quality hides? Something that you spent longer than one day to create? A cache that everyone finds something to like about, one that you put your heart and soul into? Any of you? I do it on every one I hide. I take pride in the location, the container, and any challenge I can work into it. If someone feels the need to steal a smiley for their greedy little numbers infatuation by having someone sign their name in my logbook, I will delete it, and it will stay deleted. I have done it in the past, and I have sent messages along asking them to put my caches on their ignore list. If you have no respect for me and my caches, I don't want you looking for them, let alone finding them. By the way, one of a couple ways I know that one person signed for two people. 2 people drove 70 miles on a FTF run. One was dropped off, and entered the woods at a night cache at 10:30 am(both online logs note the time)and took 4 1/2 hours to complete it. The other was trying for FTFs on three of my own caches. A friend of mine called me to say that two cachers were looking for my new cache at 11:10am on the same day.(the cache is across the street from her house) The DNF log that one cacher left, states that she met the cacher in question at this cache. She also confirmed the time. I also know the cheating cachers physical abilities. I have done this night cache twice myself, and confidently say, there's no way the cheating cacher made it through the terrain involved in this cache. Someone once told me "You'll get nowhere by looking for help on the forums." I'm beginning to believe them.

 

What sort of help did you have in mind? Did you perhaps expect us to organize the tar and feather party? Or perhaps we would start a petition to get the frog to delete the logs and issue a stern warning? Whether I care or not there is not much I can do for you. The frogs position is if there is a signature in the log and there is nothing wrong with the online log then the smiley stands. If *you* can convince the frog that the logs are bogus then you have a case for deletion and *you* can delete the log. But there are more serious things to worry about, what are we going to do about GROPE and the Forest Defender?

[+Jumpin' Jack Cache]

But there are more serious things to worry about, what are we going to do about GROPE and the Forest Defender?

 

GROPE the Forest Defender?

 

***This post is purely a lame attempt at humor. It is in no way meant to belittle the OP's position.

[jholly]

But there are more serious things to worry about, what are we going to do about GROPE and the Forest Defender?

 

GROPE the Forest Defender?

 

***This post is purely a lame attempt at humor. It is in no way meant to belittle the OP's position.

 

Now there is an idea ..... hmmm.

[Clan Riffster]

So basically, I can start logging all the caches my friends find if I have them sign my name?

Wouldn't that turn you into the type of person you're whining about?

You ask, "Who Cares?". Apparently not the cache owner, since they are not in here bristling with umbrage at the "cheaters".

Of all the things you've droned on about, the only issue even worth mentioning is one goober signing for another.

Everything else is just noise, which you and the lynch mob helped create.

There are some pretty heinous things that happen from time to time in this game. Things really worth getting fired up over.

Someone signing another person's name in a logbook isn't one of them.

Several people have suggested you at least try to look at this from a reasonable perspective. You have refused.

One would think, from your reaction to such good advice, that you just like being angry.

Good luck with that.

[+TeamGuisinger]

The help I have been looking for is where the line is drawn for logging a cache. If there is no definite line, then why is there a rule at all. The cache owner does care. He's also only been caching for a month, and I introduced him to it. He has 100 finds already and has hidden a dozen. So a week after he buys a premium membership, he gets to see first hand, cachers who don't care about him or any of the effort he's put into such an ambitious cache one month after he started. He was livid, so he deleted their logs. Then he gets a very rude snotty email from GS, about deleting logs. Then he gets personal emails from cachers he's never met, talking smack because they're friends with the so and so that started this mess. Then a warning from GS that he needed to remove any notes from his cache page within 24 hours, or the cache would be archived by GS. He has already mentioned forgetting all about caching, and deleting his account. GS has him made him feel like he can't say anything, and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So to say that he doesn't care is ludicrous. I think I'll keep playing the game my way, while steering clear of the trolls, because honesty is a much better trait than deception. Keep rolling over and letting the few who don't care ruin it for the rest of us, that seems to be the new hip thing to do.

[+TeamGuisinger]

You're playing a game that relies a lot on the honor system. Some people have no honor. FIDO!!!!

Kudos! I couldn't have said it better, and thank you for being one that does.

[4wheelin_fool]

The help I have been looking for is where the line is drawn for logging a cache. If there is no definite line, then why is there a rule at all.

They crossed the line, but not by much. Their names were in the logs but how they got there is the question.

 

The cache owner does care. He's also only been caching for a month, and I introduced him to it. He has 100 finds already and has hidden a dozen. So a week after he buys a premium membership, he gets to see first hand, cachers who don't care about him or any of the effort he's put into such an ambitious cache one month after he started. He was livid, so he deleted their logs. Then he gets a very rude snotty email from GS, about deleting logs.

Perhaps he went too far and deleted valid logs also. Once you overreact to a situation then you have lowered yourself deeper than the person who is initially at fault.

 

Then he gets personal emails from cachers he's never met, talking smack because they're friends with the so and so that started this mess. Then a warning from GS that he needed to remove any notes from his cache page within 24 hours, or the cache would be archived by GS.

Creating your own forum on a cache page is just perpetuating the problem, and making it worse.

 

He has already mentioned forgetting all about caching, and deleting his account. GS has him made him feel like he can't say anything, and he doesn't know how to deal with it. So to say that he doesn't care is ludicrous. I think I'll keep playing the game my way, while steering clear of the trolls, because honesty is a much better trait than deception. Keep rolling over and letting the few who don't care ruin it for the rest of us, that seems to be the new hip thing to do.

They only ruined it because he allowed himself to get upset. They did not kidnap trackables, rob coins, or defecate in, or steal the cache container now, did they? There are worse things to worry about. It's only a game. They took the smile away from his face, so he in turn deleted their smilies.. It's a big country, just go out and find caches..

[Clan Riffster]

The cache owner does care.

Yeah, I see that. He's certainly been vocal in his opposition to such villainy.

 

cachers who don't care about him or any of the effort he's put into such an ambitious cache

So, he's equating one guy finding a night cache during the day as someone who doesn't care about him? Really? Some mook supposedly signing someone else's name in a logbook means the cacher doesn't care about him? Seriously?

 

He was livid, so he deleted their logs.

Ah... I see. Is this guy, per chance, in junior high? I ask because I'm sensing some kind of drama fest. I'm trying to picture the psyche of someone who would be "livid" over such a trivial thing, and teenager is all I could come up with. Should the logs be deleted? The guy who found the cache most definitely earned the smiley. As an owner of three active night caches, I can tell you they are a heck of a lot harder to find during the day. Adding some other guy's name to the log is pretty cheesy, and if he can prove it, would likely be grounds for deletion. Can he prove it? It doesn't look like it, regardless of your earlier conspiracy theory. If he can, that's between him and Groundspeak. Arbitrarily deleting logs is a pretty serious thing, and has some very real consequences.

 

Then he gets a very rude snotty email from GS, about deleting logs.

Can you provide a copy of that e-mail? I ask because I've never seen any correspondence from The Lily Pad that was anything but polite. Perhaps "rude snotty" is an exaggeration on your end? In fact, as a customer, if I ever got a "rude snotty" e-mail from TPTB I would be posting it everywhere so others could see how the business was treating their customers. I noticed the cache owner didn't do that. How come? Could it be the e-mail isn't as "rude snotty" as you claim?

 

Then he gets personal emails from cachers he's never met, talking smack because they're friends with the so and so that started this mess.

Consequences. Gotta love 'em. As much as you love preaching doom & gloom about how the caching community has no moral compass, there are actions that are guaranteed to generate angst. Stealing caches is one example. Deleting legitimate logs is another example. Your buddy acted badly. That he did so following what he perceived as bad behavior of another does not excuse his actions.

 

Then a warning from GS that he needed to remove any notes from his cache page within 24 hours, or the cache would be archived by GS.

Did he really think that his cache page was an appropriate platform for a debate on what constitutes an acceptable find?

 

He has already mentioned forgetting all about caching, and deleting his account.

Tell him we said "Bye". If he's such a control freak that he can't handle someone caching their own way, perhaps the game would be better off without him.

 

GS has him made him feel like he can't say anything, and he doesn't know how to deal with it.

By telling him not to use his cache page to preach his agenda? Really? Groundspeak gives him a forum for discussing stuff. They give him the ability to message anyone else playing this game. They even give him clear, concise directions regarding how to handle conflict... and he can't say anything, and doesn't know how to handle it? Seriously? I don't have an answer for that one. Some kids today don't handle reality very well. Perhaps your friend is one of them?

 

So to say that he doesn't care is ludicrous.

Actually, to say he doesn't care is simply an observation. He's been given a perfect platform to air his grievance, and all we hear from him are cricket sounds. The only one who seems to give a hoot is you.

 

Keep rolling over and letting the few who don't care ruin it for the rest of us, that seems to be the new hip thing to do.

Speaking of ludicrous... Has someone ruined the game recently? Or perhaps you are simply exaggerating... again. Just so you know, exaggeration can be an effective debate tactic, if used properly. You are not using it properly, so it's failing for you.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Clan Riffster

[+BulldogBlitz]

So basically, I can start logging all the caches my friends find if I have them sign my name? I can't believe that so many of you care so little, but then again, that's what's wrong with most of the world nowadays. No one cares, it's not their problem, they don't have time, it's not important. How many of you who don't see a problem with this, have quality hides? Something that you spent longer than one day to create? A cache that everyone finds something to like about, one that you put your heart and soul into? Any of you? I do it on every one I hide. I take pride in the location, the container, and any challenge I can work into it. If someone feels the need to steal a smiley for their greedy little numbers infatuation by having someone sign their name in my logbook, I will delete it, and it will stay deleted. I have done it in the past, and I have sent messages along asking them to put my caches on their ignore list. If you have no respect for me and my caches, I don't want you looking for them, let alone finding them. By the way, one of a couple ways I know that one person signed for two people. 2 people drove 70 miles on a FTF run. One was dropped off, and entered the woods at a night cache at 10:30 am(both online logs note the time)and took 4 1/2 hours to complete it. The other was trying for FTFs on three of my own caches. A friend of mine called me to say that two cachers were looking for my new cache at 11:10am on the same day.(the cache is across the street from her house) The DNF log that one cacher left, states that she met the cacher in question at this cache. She also confirmed the time. I also know the cheating cachers physical abilities. I have done this night cache twice myself, and confidently say, there's no way the cheating cacher made it through the terrain involved in this cache. Someone once told me "You'll get nowhere by looking for help on the forums." I'm beginning to believe them.

 

all this drama because someone is cheating in a game to find tupperware in the woods for a little pixel smiley? as for the ALR stuff, i actually try and play along with the CO on those... but that is a personal choice. we have a sacred cow in the area that believes he is the one true defender of all that is holy within geocaching and the letter of the law is the only thing that must be accounted - i.e. he refuses to do even a silly picture as an ALR...and doesn't mind threatening the CO on behalf of GS.

 

oh...and that was a wise person who told you that about the forums. just fill in the blank _______ forums are of no use, just snarky off topic stuff.

[+9Key]

That's too bad it's affecting the cache hider in a negative way. People here can post all they want about "just let it go", but when someone picks on your hard work or messes it up it's annoying.

[+tozainamboku]

Verily did the puritan find tha Satan had come and loggeth a find on cache he did not signeth. An lo, he did complaineth in the forum, "Woe! what has become of geocaching that I may not deleteth Satan's log. Verily did the frog say that I must not deleteth the log or else my cache would be archived. For Satan had his minions complaineth that I am a malicious cache owner. Alas. all I have done is to stand up to Satan's evil to preserveth the dignity of the game."

 

And lo the forum regulars did say "Why doth thou loseth sleep over trivial matters. Let Satan have his smiley and let thyself continueth to enjoy caching." But unless good men stand to fight Satan, then evil will fill the game and destroy it. So, until this day, we read the lamentations of the puritan and verily nothing will be done.

[+David]

we read the lamentations of the puritan and verily nothing will be done.

 

Thus sayeth the prophet. Amen.

 

For the record, I hear the the OP and I empathize. Count me as one who does care.

 

Alas, nothing will be done save wailing and gnashing of teeth. Verily.

[Clan Riffster]

Count me as one who does care.

I think most folks would side with you. However, there's a huge difference between caring about the intricacies of the game and wailing about how one guy logged another guy's cache. Historically, cachers as a whole have a strong sense of right & wrong, probably because the existence of this game is dependent upon trust. If the cache owner came in here grumbling about a possible bogus log, I would show some degree of empathy. But someone else, not related to the cache in any way throwing a fit over it? Sorry. That doesn't rate much sympathy from me.

 

In accordance with the teachings of the Prophet Toz

Edited May 6, 2010 by Clan Riffster

[+David]

The cache owner does care. He's also only been caching for a month, and I introduced him to it.

 

Count me as one who does care.

But someone else, not related to the cache in any way throwing a fit over it? Sorry. That doesn't rate much sympathy from me.

 

The OP is related to the cache. I included the relationship above, as it was explained earlier.

Edited May 6, 2010 by David

[Clan Riffster]

Ahh... That sheds a little light on the subject. Thanx!

If someone who I started in this addiction had what they perceived to be a bogus log on their cache, I would let them be the one to grumble about it, if they cared enough to grumble. Perhaps his caching protege realises that this is a pretty minor offense? Not worth getting fired up over? Maybe the master could learn from the student?

 

"Grasshopper, if you can take the film can from my hand, you will have learned..."

[+TeamGuisinger]

Thank you acknowledging my feelings everyone. I've known the guy for 17 years, I've tried to sell him on caching for 3. If this was one person doing something out of character one time, I would've ignored it, like I have done many times since I started caching. This event was the proverbial straw on the camels back. Things like this and worse have been going on with this person for over a year. I realize that some of you would never make a snap decision in the heat of the moment. I also realize that caching is right above washing the driveway on some of your list of important things in life. Myself and countless others have tried to ignore it, but it affects so many in so many ways. If I thought I wouldn't catch flak from GS, I would've started a post with the persons cache name in it, asking cachers to post stories about how their caching experience was negatively affected by this one person. It would be quite a read. However, it seems that most cachers I've talked to about the forums, never realized there was a midwest section for Ohio. I came here thinking that someone out there has or has had similar problems with a similar animal, and might have worthwhile input or advice. Trying to change my mind, is simply wasting bandwidth.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

...Trying to change my mind, is simply wasting bandwidth.

Yeah, we got that part!