Write a story or you're being disrespectful?

[+Ambrosia]

Well said, AR.

 

I'd also like to add that not everyone is computer literate, not everyone can type, not everyone can read and write well, not everyone enjoys writing, and there is a younger generation for whom text-speak is becoming the norm. I personally may not be happy about any of those things, but as I have no control over other people and their lives, I try not to get too bent out of shape about it.

 

Really, how much computer literacy, writing ability and typing skills are required to write a simple

"Nice cache, we really enjoyed the view. Thank you"?

 

This is what I've been thinking. I know that there has to be some people that really can't log or something, but the percentage has to be so low compared to the numbers I've been seeing lately.

 

I know cachers in their 80's who can navigate a computer well enough to log their caches.

 

My mom has a lot of difficulty with computers (she's in her 60's). I have to basically hold her hand through logging a cache. But it's very important to her to write a few good words in her log. She keeps asking me, is this a good thing to say? And I tell her that it's up to her to say what she thinks is right. She spends way too long worrying about being respectful and doing the right thing. I kind of laugh at her, but I respect that even in her computer illiteracy, she's trying to do her best at communicating with the caching world in a meaningful way.

 

I am fine if people really just want to log a TFTC (a little disapointed, but this is their right). The people I worry about are the ones that are just logging the way they see others log and don't realize the history of caching and that they can write longer logs if they want. They may never realize this, as they are just copying what they see. If they can understand their options, so they can make an informed decision, then I'm happy.

[+ThePetersTrio]

Well said, AR.

 

I'd also like to add that not everyone is computer literate, not everyone can type, not everyone can read and write well, not everyone enjoys writing, and there is a younger generation for whom text-speak is becoming the norm. I personally may not be happy about any of those things, but as I have no control over other people and their lives, I try not to get too bent out of shape about it.

 

Really, how much computer literacy, writing ability and typing skills are required to write a simple

"Nice cache, we really enjoyed the view. Thank you"?

 

Well that is hard for me to say. I am fairly computer literate, enjoy writing and have no problems typing. Maybe that question should be directed to someone who isn't any of those things.

 

I try not to impose my own expectations based on my personal set of skills or abilities onto others that I do not know AT ALL.

Edited November 29, 2009 by ThePetersTrio

[+Ambrosia]

If a person can navigate a computer enough to write a log that says, "TFTC", then they can type out a few words. I think we can lay the computer illiterate excuse to rest. I'm not saying that everyone can write a novel or anything, but if they can write a couple letters, then they can write a couple words.

[+ThePetersTrio]

If a person can navigate a computer enough to write a log that says, "TFTC", then they can type out a few words. I think we can lay the computer illiterate excuse to rest. I'm not saying that everyone can write a novel or anything, but if they can write a couple letters, then they can write a couple words.

 

With respect - you've not met my mother, the English major. She loves writing (typing too) and does so very well. She is not only computer illiterate (she's had a computer for 3 years now and only just learned what "google" is about) but she's also afraid of hitting the wrong button on her keyboard which would cause her computer to implode.

 

She has gone caching with me and though I set up an account for her, she has yet to log on-line once. If she did, she'd very likely only say something like, "TFTC".

 

And then there is another friend of mine who unfortunately has early on-set arthritis. Typing (among other things) can be very painful for her. She'd probably love nothing more than to write a long log note. In fact, I'd wager she'd do just about anything to get rid of her arthritis so she could write more, as that was something she used to love to do. She'd feel terrible if she knew that others were ticked off at her short cache note. She'd probably just stop logging on-line all together if she was aware of that.

 

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

But I guess that's just me.

[+Ambrosia]

If a person can navigate a computer enough to write a log that says, "TFTC", then they can type out a few words. I think we can lay the computer illiterate excuse to rest. I'm not saying that everyone can write a novel or anything, but if they can write a couple letters, then they can write a couple words.

 

With respect - you've not met my mother, the English major. She loves writing (typing too) and does so very well. She is not only computer illiterate (she's had a computer for 3 years now and only just learned what "google" is about) but she's also afraid of hitting the wrong button on her keyboard which would cause her computer to implode.

 

She has gone caching with me and though I set up an account for her, she has yet to log on-line once. If she did, she'd very likely only say something like, "TFTC".

 

And then there is another friend of mine who unfortunately has early on-set arthritis. Typing (among other things) can be very painful for her. She'd probably love nothing more than to write a long log note. In fact, I'd wager she'd do just about anything to get rid of her arthritis so she could write more, as that was something she used to love to do. She'd feel terrible if she knew that others were ticked off at her short cache note. She'd probably just stop logging on-line all together if she was aware of that.

 

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

But I guess that's just me.

 

That's why I said this, earlier:

 

I know that there has to be some people that really can't log or something, but the percentage has to be so low compared to the numbers I've been seeing lately.

 

Of course there are some cases of people that really have a reason. But not compared to the many many logs that I've been seeing recently. The word count has been going down, markedly, in recent years. On the same caches that got longer logs before! Of course, there are many reasons for this, which have been discussed in the other thread on this subject.

 

I really didn't want to get involved in this thread, as I've said a fair amount in the other thread and I don't like repeating myself. For some reason though, I got sucked into this one!

 

You don't have to tell me about walking a mile in someone else's shoes. I'm probably hundreds of logs behind, for a couple years now. I like writing long logs, but because of health issues, it's very difficult for me. I'd rather not log than to log poorly, so I just don't log very many anymore.

[+briansnat]

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

You seem to think we're judging people. Rather we are trying to encourage them. It already worked. We have one convert on the previous page and who knows how many more who haven't posted.

 

Convincing people that feedback is an important part of this sport is my goal.

 

Yeah I know about arthritics and quadriplegics and people with other disabilities that preclude their writing more than "Found it" or "TFTC". It is my guess that they constitute a fairly small percentage of people who are writing these cut and paste logs.

[+flask]

 

But i still think that some people simply CAN'T write a long log, and i respect their right not to

 

ah. i have NEVER said people ought to write a long log; just a decent one. a few informative or gracious words will do just fine. i can give you some links to very short and lovely logs that impressed me very much in that the writer had obviously found over a hundred caches in the day and yet took the time to write a few words for each one.

 

i have never been speaking of requirement, but simply the right way to do things. there's no law that says i have to let people into a long line of traffic, and there shouldn't be a law requiring it, but i still let people in. it's the right thing to do.

 

the right thing to do is usually not within the proper bounds of rules and laws.

 

i have very consistently argued in favor of decent containers in decent locations, with decent logs written. i have been very careful not to argue for really good containers in spectacular spots and pulitzer prize-winning logs.

 

even at the basic level, one can and should take the time to play well.

 

OK ... I replace "long" with "good" ....... some people may have "dificulty" composing something which you concider "good", and i respect their right not to have to ( and applaud the effort they do make)

 

oh, and i didn't say "good", either. i said "decent". i also said "a few words". it don't gotta be long. it don't gotta be beautiful.

 

i didn't say it should be required, and i'm not sure why you put "difficulty" in quotes.

 

but i still believe people oughta take the time to write a few informative, gracious, or funny words for each cache. why on earth should we aspire to the lowest common denominator? why should we encourage people to do things the easiest and cheapest way possible?

 

you wouldn't encourage a tee-ball team to play that sloppy; you'd encourage them to do their best with it. you wouldn't hear a kindergarten teacher saying "nobody should have to form his letters; whatever mark he chooses to make on the paper will be just fine", and you wouldn't hear a birder telling newcomers that they should just check off whatever birds look pretty on the checklist.

 

why not express hope that people will take the time to play well?

 

i am aware that i write better than most; would my argument in favor of decent logs sound less stringent if i was barely literate? i know some very fine people who aren't all that good with the written word and yet string together a few of them for each cache they find.

 

it isn't all that hard. we should not aspire to do only the barest minimum; we should not fall all over ourselves encouraging people to do only what is required and call it quits.

[+jeffbouldin]

If a person can navigate a computer enough to write a log that says, "TFTC", then they can type out a few words. I think we can lay the computer illiterate excuse to rest. I'm not saying that everyone can write a novel or anything, but if they can write a couple letters, then they can write a couple words.

 

With respect - you've not met my mother, the English major. She loves writing (typing too) and does so very well. She is not only computer illiterate (she's had a computer for 3 years now and only just learned what "google" is about) but she's also afraid of hitting the wrong button on her keyboard which would cause her computer to implode.

 

She has gone caching with me and though I set up an account for her, she has yet to log on-line once. If she did, she'd very likely only say something like, "TFTC".

 

And then there is another friend of mine who unfortunately has early on-set arthritis. Typing (among other things) can be very painful for her. She'd probably love nothing more than to write a long log note. In fact, I'd wager she'd do just about anything to get rid of her arthritis so she could write more, as that was something she used to love to do. She'd feel terrible if she knew that others were ticked off at her short cache note. She'd probably just stop logging on-line all together if she was aware of that.

 

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

But I guess that's just me.

 

Very well put. You never know who is on the other end and what their story is. There is an LPC near my house in a McDonalds parking lot. I met the owner at the cache, she's 4. She wanted to hide one and picked out the spot. If I did not know that and complained about another LPC how would that little girl feel? My kids have an account and while my 8 and 10 year old don't post much how would they feel if someone criticized them for what they did post? Maybe they are newbies and think TFTC is what is expected? If you berate them you might run them off. Why spoil others fun because they don't play the way you want them to? That is like the kid on the playground throwing a fit to get his way.

 

Maybe befriend the newbies in your area and offer guidance. I usually email every new cacher that logs my caches and welcome them. I let them know they can email me with questions any time. I have never had anyone be upset or offended. I have helped many and several have hidden some very nice caches, which increases my enjoyment of the game.

 

If you get to know them maybe you can influence them to become more fluent in their logs. Or maybe you'll find out the story behind why they log as they do.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

My best friend Sam was also my Dad's best friend. They went to school together and had a close lifelong friendship. Sam had no arms or legs, just stumps about six inches long with half a thumb on the inside of each arm stump. Got around by hopping on his butt like a rabbit. He was my best hunting and fishing buddy. Took a deer every year with a rifle, fished year-round, though he would occasionally flip his rod in the lake when casting. He ran a garage. He'd hire local kids, get them to sit him on a stool by the fender and tell them what to do under the hood. He raised 5 kids and put them all through quality colleges. He typed email with those little stubs of a thumb for years until he passed.

 

My friend Ric (ham operator K4SCI) was in a US Army tank patrolling the German border 21 years ago when the tank driver got careless and drove off the road on a steep hill. The tank rolled and broke Ric's neck. For 21 years until he passed a few months ago Ric operated a ham radio station as his primary contact with the world outside his bedroom. He ran an online hosting business and created web pages (including my w4aga.com and w4aga.com/forums) using a mouth stick. He had no motion except very limited motion of his head, mostly his mouth. He absolutely delighted when I and his caregiver loaded him in his van and went geocaching. What with loading and unloading him in his electric mouth-stick-driven wheelchair it may have taken an hour to do an LPC, but by golly when he got home he typed up a note about the trip.

 

I lost a leg and broke my neck and live in constant severe chronic pain. Most days when you don't see me post in this forum it's because I hurt too bad to sit in my wheelchair. But I've logged 2500+ caches and found about twice that.

 

It pisses ALL of us off when someone says that gimps can't do something, especially something like type!

 

If we post TFTC it's because we're thanking the cache owner for the cache, not because we can't do better! Please, find another excuse!

Edited November 29, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Ambrosia]

It pisses ALL of us off when someone says that gimps can't do something, especially something like type!

 

Thank you! I've been grumbling to myself for a while. It takes a lot to piss me off.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

It pisses ALL of us off when someone says that gimps can't do something, especially something like type!

 

Thank you! I've been grumbling to myself for a while. It takes a lot to piss me off.

Sorry, it lights my fire when the able say "But what about the cripples, they can't do... whatever"!

 

/soapbox

[knowschad]

OK... to sum this thread up (I hope!) just do not post TFTC for your logs, OK? Those that don't care if you do will be happy if you post more. Those that care will be happy that you posted more. Its a win-win.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

OK... to sum this thread up (I hope!) just do I will not post TFTC for your my logs, OK? Those that don't care if you I do will be happy if you I post more. Those that care will be happy that you I posted more. Its a win-win.

There, fixed it for ya.

[+ThePetersTrio]

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

You seem to think we're judging people. Rather we are trying to encourage them. It already worked. We have one convert on the previous page and who knows how many more who haven't posted.

 

Convincing people that feedback is an important part of this sport is my goal.

 

Yeah I know about arthritics and quadriplegics and people with other disabilities that preclude their writing more than "Found it" or "TFTC". It is my guess that they constitute a fairly small percentage of people who are writing these cut and paste logs.

 

Ok, fair point that you and Ambrosia make. Honestly, I get it.

 

I just wouldn't ever want to make a snap judgment based on a log note because that judgment could be wrong, that's all. People are different and they play the game differently. I am all for encouraging better log notes, just please (and this is a general plea, not directed to any one person) don't make assumptions about a cacher because of a log. As a CO myself, I greatly enjoy reading the logs posted to my cache...but long or short or 4 keystrokes to ME doesn't tell me anything about who that person is (lazy, disrespectful, unappreciative of my cache) - it is just a log note.

[+Too Tall John]

...I wouldn't call cookie cutter logs disrespectful, but they are disappointing.

Very well said...

I'll ditto that, too!!

The log is the only reward the cache hider gets. *snip*

Another eloquent statement. The log is not more important, but once I hide a cache that's all I get.

No, that isn't quite all we get. Sometimes, we get a return trip to the cache because someone was too busy/in too much of a hurry to put the cache back in it's proper location. Same kind of mentality that lead to... Oh never mind...

[+9Key]

This topic comes to mind when this issue pops up.

[knowschad]

OK... to sum this thread up (I hope!) just do I will not post TFTC for your my logs, OK? Those that don't care if you I do will be happy if you I post more. Those that care will be happy that you I posted more. Its a win-win.

There, fixed it for ya.

Nope. Ya broke it. Nice try, though, but I meant what I said. How did that old saying go?... oh yeah... "don't fix it if it ain't broke". Edited November 29, 2009 by knowschad

[calgriz]

OK... to sum this thread up (I hope!) just do I will not post TFTC for your my logs, OK? Those that don't care if you I do will be happy if you I post more. Those that care will be happy that you I posted more. Its a win-win.

There, fixed it for ya.

Nope. Ya broke it. Nice try, though, but I meant what I said. How did that old saying go?... oh yeah... "don't fix it if it ain't broke".

 

"wanting" is sometimes not getting, such is life.

[+Ambrosia]

So, generally speaking, I don't think judging people until you've walked a mile in their shoes is very wise.

 

You seem to think we're judging people. Rather we are trying to encourage them. It already worked. We have one convert on the previous page and who knows how many more who haven't posted.

 

Convincing people that feedback is an important part of this sport is my goal.

 

Yeah I know about arthritics and quadriplegics and people with other disabilities that preclude their writing more than "Found it" or "TFTC". It is my guess that they constitute a fairly small percentage of people who are writing these cut and paste logs.

 

Ok, fair point that you and Ambrosia make. Honestly, I get it.

 

I just wouldn't ever want to make a snap judgment based on a log note because that judgment could be wrong, that's all. People are different and they play the game differently. I am all for encouraging better log notes, just please (and this is a general plea, not directed to any one person) don't make assumptions about a cacher because of a log. As a CO myself, I greatly enjoy reading the logs posted to my cache...but long or short or 4 keystrokes to ME doesn't tell me anything about who that person is (lazy, disrespectful, unappreciative of my cache) - it is just a log note.

 

I really do think that we're all saying basically the same thing, just in different ways. Yes, it's important to not assume. We don't know each and every cacher and what they are going through. Each time I get a short log, I'm a bit deflated, but I say to myself that I don't know the reasons that they choose to log that way. The thing that gets me is that over the past almost eight years of caching, I've seen the huge change in logging styles. And so I know that only a small percentage of people are doing this because of physical or mental or age (etc.) reasons. I just don't know which is which for each cacher and so I can't assume individually but I can be saddened and disapointed as a whole in the way geocaching has changed.

 

I think it's important that this topic comes up either here in the forums or on a more local level, to help newer people who may not understand their options. As long as we can all be patient and understanding with each other as we share and educate.

[+fizzymagic]

I just wouldn't ever want to make a snap judgment based on a log note because that judgment could be wrong, that's all.

Calling an action rude is not a judgment on the person who did the action. It's a judgment on the action.

 

People are different and they play the game differently.

Cut-and-paste logs, no matter how long, are rude. Some people try not to be rude; others don't care. That's playing the game differently, and that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the behavior is rude.

[+Too Tall John]

If you can't even remember something unique about every cache you did, why even do them? Is it just for the numbers? Personally, I can't imagine voluntarily doing something that sucked 111 times in a day.

So true! Perhaps people should think about why they are caching? Rather than worrying about how long it takes to log a cache, maybe they should be worried about how long it takes to find a cache?

My intent here was to educate new cache owners that this is acceptable practice and to take the stick out of their, well you know and just enjoy geocaching their own way.

 

If you have time to get on these forums every day and start a flame war, bitch at people on cache pages and by email, then you need to get a life. I'm just trying to bring up a topic to discuss, and usually avoid the forums, under 500 posts in 5 years is pretty low.

If you are simply "bringing up a topic to discuss" then what seems to be your problem? Seems the topic you are trying to "educate new cache owners" on is a bit sensitive and is generating some discussion.

 

Maybe you're upset that the "new cache owners" are going to read that some people don't in fact, appreciate super short logs, and that maybe they aren't alone?

I'm not very politically correct so people will flame me for that. Oh my god he said @#@$. NO!!! AHH!! Grow up.

I haven't seen anyone upset about the language you've used, so now you're just diverting attention, or trying to.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

This topic comes to mind when this issue pops up.

Well, there ya go... 559 posts in that thread and ~170 here, not to mention all of the other threads where this has been discussed tells me that there is no correct answer!

 

It's up to the cacher how he chooses to post and up to the CO how he chooses to interpret that post!

 

Life is all about choices... I choose to interpret TFTC as "Thanks For The Cache!" and am perfectly satisfied by it.

 

Interesting corollary question... how many of you would quit hiding caches if all that was allowed was a Found It checkbox?

[knowschad]

"wanting" is sometimes not getting, such is life.

So, we should just bury our heads in the sand and say, "OK... that's how it is. Guess I'd better just resign myself to the lowest common denominator"? No thanks.

[knowschad]

This topic comes to mind when this issue pops up.

Well, there ya go... 559 posts in that thread and ~170 here, not to mention all of the other threads where this has been discussed tells me that there is no correct answer!

It's up to the cacher how he chooses to post and up to the CO how he chooses to interpret that post!

Life is all about choices... I choose to interpret TFTC as "Thanks For The Cache!" and am perfectly satisfied by it.

Interesting corollary question... how many of you would quit hiding caches if all that was allowed was a Found It checkbox?

Two possible replies to that:

 

 

Hey, TAR... thanks for the thoughtful post. While I can not quite agree with your casual stance at "TFTC" logs at this time, I'm certainly listening, and I can understand how letting go of my angst in that area could possibly better my own life"

OR:

"TFTP".

Edited November 29, 2009 by knowschad

[knowschad]

I'm sorry, but I just have to repeat something that I said early on... the subject of this post is "Write a story or you're being disrespectful". NOBODY but noboy is asking anybody, that I'm aware of, to "write a story". If you know of such a cache (and it is not an ALR), then please post it. The difference between "TFTC" and "writing a story" is so huge that I am surprised that anybody even took the time to comment on it.

 

Don't "write a story" if you don't want to. But understand that some hiders take "TFTC" to be an insult, and try to be a wise human being that strives to hit somewhere in between the two extremes, OK?

[+all done]

I/we are fairly new to this geocaching "thing" but here is my perspective as a newbie. Of course one can write whatever they want but for myself I like to write at least a little bit about every find or did not find. I guess as a newbie that's what I thought it was all about. I like that aspect of this hobby. One of our first finds was a place we had been to many times prior to geocaching and has long been one of my favorite spots in our local area. It just seemed natural to write how I felt about the area and let the hider know how much I liked "his" spot. He wrote me back and thanked me for the write up and noted how he appreciated when people actually write something instead of just leaving a TFTC TNLN STL etc etc. Being new I was surprized to hear people didn't always write something. We actually have placed a few caches ourselves now and of course we like when people write a little something even if it's only slightly more than TFTC. To each their own but for myself I like to take my time and enjoy the cache area's and also take the time to write something. If it ever becomes all about the numbers and I don't have the time to write the logs it will be time to rethink why I am doing this.

Just a newbies 2 cents worth.

[+fizzymagic]

Just a newbies 2 cents worth.

Worth a lot more than two cents!

 

I've been caching a pretty long time, and the thing that keeps me interested is the wonderful places it takes me that I would never have known existed, or the way it shows me new things about places I thought I knew. In both cases, writing something helps me remember and appreciate what I saw or learned. It also lets the placer know that I appreciate the thought that went into the cache placement.

 

For the vast majority of people I know, the numbers game gets very old after a year or so. Many stop caching altogether, but, in my experience, those who remain are those who can find and appreciate the special caches in the special places.

 

I don't tend to leave cut-and-paste logs not only because it is rude, but also because I try very hard to avoid cut-and-paste caches.

[calgriz]

"wanting" is sometimes not getting, such is life.

So, we should just bury our heads in the sand and say, "OK... that's how it is. Guess I'd better just resign myself to the lowest common denominator"? No thanks.

 

No. sorry I never said that. I know I was clear and pithy.

[+all done]

This topic reminded me of something I was kind of wondering about that is closely related that I hope fits here and isn't stealing the post.

Here goes. When we first started in January of this year we wrote comments in the log books, nice place took this left that etc etc but lately we just pretty much sign the log and do any "story telling" via the website logs. I have come to assume that due to the limited log book space in many caches that this would be the more proper thing to do. I am assuming that filling up a log book with what could easily be logged via the website is probably not desired. It seemed like when we first started we did come upon some that had a lot of writing in them. My wife (half of the putters) would actually sit there and read the log books out of curiousity, which leads to another question, I suppose reading the paper log books is okay and not unethical or any sort of improper etiquette?

[+The Blorenges]

It's fine to read the paper log book and many cachers enjoy a break sitting near the cache location reading through the comments from previous finders.

 

What you write in the the log book v. what you log online is up to you and the size of the logbook available. If we find a good-sized log book on a fine day at an attractive, secluded location it'll get more detail (and probably neater writing ) than a diddy logbook in a 'park and grab' next to busy main road.

 

MrsB

[+Ambrosia]

This topic reminded me of something I was kind of wondering about that is closely related that I hope fits here and isn't stealing the post.

Here goes. When we first started in January of this year we wrote comments in the log books, nice place took this left that etc etc but lately we just pretty much sign the log and do any "story telling" via the website logs. I have come to assume that due to the limited log book space in many caches that this would be the more proper thing to do. I am assuming that filling up a log book with what could easily be logged via the website is probably not desired. It seemed like when we first started we did come upon some that had a lot of writing in them. My wife (half of the putters) would actually sit there and read the log books out of curiousity, which leads to another question, I suppose reading the paper log books is okay and not unethical or any sort of improper etiquette?

When we first started caching, all logbooks were pretty much all spiral bound notebooks. It takes a while to fill those up. And yes, we all wrote our experiences in there. And as far as I know, a lot of us would read the other logs. It was a small community, of people you almost never saw, and it was neat to have this tangible connection to them. Because of this, I felt that my notebook log and my online log had to be different. After a little while, this started to be difficult to do (what can I say that is different? hm,haw), and when micros became popular it wasn't feasable to do anything but sign your name. So I decided to just start logging my name in the physical logbook and put the real meat of my experiences in the online log. But as long as there's room in the logbook, it's up to you how you want to handle it. I still skim through logs in physical logbooks if I have the time, it makes me feel like a kid on Christmas day.

[+briansnat]

Interesting corollary question... how many of you would quit hiding caches if all that was allowed was a Found It checkbox?

 

As I mentioned on the previous page, I place caches for the enjoyment of others and expect nothing in return. That said I spend a lot of time placing and tending to the caches, not to mention lots of money. I'm not going to do that unless I know people are enjoying my caches and the way I know that is through the logs.

 

On one of my early caches a finder ended his log with "Thanks for the bonding experience with my daughters". It made me think that if sticking an ammo box in the woods can do something like that, it was something worthwhile. Without that log and others like it, I probably would have lost the urge to place caches long ago.

 

It's the logs that tell me people are enjoying what I do. Without that knowledge I'd likely spend my time and money doing something else.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

All I see on this thread are a lot of blowhards who all share common denominators of being fast typers, well versed in aspects of the Tubes like forums and membership sites, have more than a passing interest in literature, and enjoy typing.

 

Of course the majority using this forum are long-log writers because they are also here typing long and/or meaningful forum posts.

 

It's ridiculous to read these forums and think you suddenly have found the heartbeat of geocaching and that the majority of geocachers are think this way, because I assure you they do not. This forum is a subculture of certain geocachers who share certain attributes... writing lots of words being one of them.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the only opinion on this topic I could actually respect is one of those who does not use the forums at all.

 

There are many different types of people yet I see people here making huge hasty generalisations, as though they have gone and consulted the statistics or conducted surveys, then simply stating it as fact.

 

Here's some advice, if I haven't already enraged you so much with my opinion above that you can't see through the red mist, get out of your little geocaching ghetto and go meet some people in real life.

 

Seek first to understand, if you wish to be understood.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

[

When we first started caching, all logbooks were pretty much all spiral bound notebooks. It takes a while to fill those up. And yes, we all wrote our experiences in there.

 

I found "The Spot" (GC39) a few months ago, which I believe is the 5th oldest active cache. It had a spiral notebook that, if I recall, is the original logbook in the cache. Pretty much everyone wrote a sentence or more in the logbook and I spent awhile reading some of the older ones.

[+briansnat]

Here's some advice, if I haven't already enraged you so much with my opinion above that you can't see through the red mist, get out of your little geocaching ghetto and go meet some people in real life.

 

Do you mean like those I meet through my 9-5 job, or like the soccer team I coach, or like the trail crews I work with, or like my fishing buddies, or like the guys on my softball team, or like my old college friends, or my extended family, or like the group I'm going hiking with this afetrnoon?

 

Or could you mean the the dozens local geocaches who I see regularly at events and group hikes, or perhaps you are referring to the hundreds of geocachers I've met over the years from all over the US, the UK, France, Canada, the Czech Republic, Slovkia and other countries?

 

Narrow down what you mean by people in real life I'd I'll be sure to go out and meet them. Again.

 

There are many different types of people yet I see people here making huge hasty generalisations...

 

You mean like someone you know quite well?

 

...as though they have gone and consulted the statistics or conducted surveys, then simply stating it as fact.

 

It's called empirical. When you've met close to a thousand geocachers, conversed with hundreds and spent lots of time with dozens, you learn a lot about what people think. I assure you that what geocachers talk about on the trail, in front of campfires, over drinks, etc. is very similar to what is discussed here.

Edited November 29, 2009 by briansnat

[+sbell111]

Interesting corollary question... how many of you would quit hiding caches if all that was allowed was a Found It checkbox?

 

As I mentioned on the previous page, I place caches for the enjoyment of others and expect nothing in return. That said I spend a lot of time placing and tending to the caches, not to mention lots of money. I'm not going to do that unless I know people are enjoying my caches and the way I know that is through the logs.

 

On one of my early caches a finder ended his log with "Thanks for the bonding experience with my daughters". It made me think that if sticking an ammo box in the woods can do something like that, it was something worthwhile. Without that log and others like it, I probably would have lost the urge to place caches long ago.

 

It's the logs that tell me people are enjoying what I do. Without that knowledge I'd likely spend my time and money doing something else.

I completely agree with your post. It is the online logs that make this game special. I believe that if it was not for these logs that the game (and the gc.com website) would not have been the success that it is.

 

That being said, I don't believe that the occasional 'TFTC' logged to a good cache is detrimental to anything.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Do you mean like those I meet through my 9-5 job, or like the soccer team I coach, or like the trail crews I work with, or like my fishing buddies, or like the guys on my softball team, or like my old college friends, or my extended family, or like the group I'm going hiking with this afetrnoon?

 

Or could you mean the the dozens local geocaches who I see regularly at events and group hikes, or perhaps you are referring to the hundreds of geocachers I've met over the years from all over the US, the UK, France, Canada, the Czech Republic, Slovkia and other countries?

 

Narrow down what you mean by people in real life I'd I'll be sure to go out and meet them. Again.

 

 

Wow, you've met hundred's of people... you think that's really a lot of people? And of those millions thousands hundreds, the percentage, outside of your social cliques, who have verified they think the same as you?

 

Actually, perhaps 'meet' itself is too shallow a word... I've met thousands of people from all over the globe, but of those I didn't get to know all of them, and only a tiny percentage are geocachers - and of that percentage the most common gripe was with micros - not online logs.

 

ETA: When you get into meeting thousands of people, you should have already found a great percentage of those people don't actually agree with you on a lot of things.

 

You mean like someone you know quite well?

 

Who are you referring to?

 

It's called empirical.

 

No sir, what you refer to is anecdotal.

 

When you've met close to a thousand geocachers, conversed with hundreds and spent lots of time with dozens, you learn a lot about what people think. I assure you that what geocachers talk about on the trail, in front of campfires, over drinks, etc. is very similar to what is discussed here.

 

Ahh the numbers again, so it's not hundreds it's thousands? Are you really sure of how many people you've met? You seem a little confused.

 

And even then, are you implying somehow that after you've spent lots of time with someone you're able to read their minds?

 

I see no survey being quoted here, I see you professing to be something that amounts to a geocacher-whisperer.

Edited November 29, 2009 by _TeamFitz_

[Mr.Yuck]

All I see on this thread are a lot of blowhards who all share common denominators of being fast typers, well versed in aspects of the Tubes like forums and membership sites, have more than a passing interest in literature, and enjoy typing.

 

Of course the majority using this forum are long-log writers because they are also here typing long and/or meaningful forum posts.

 

It's ridiculous to read these forums and think you suddenly have found the heartbeat of geocaching and that the majority of geocachers are think this way, because I assure you they do not. This forum is a subculture of certain geocachers who share certain attributes... writing lots of words being one of them.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the only opinion on this topic I could actually respect is one of those who does not use the forums at all.

 

There are many different types of people yet I see people here making huge hasty generalisations, as though they have gone and consulted the statistics or conducted surveys, then simply stating it as fact.

 

Here's some advice, if I haven't already enraged you so much with my opinion above that you can't see through the red mist, get out of your little geocaching ghetto and go meet some people in real life.

 

Seek first to understand, if you wish to be understood.

 

Ah yes. We haven't seen a "You're all a bunch of losers, back away from the keyboard, go outside and get some fresh air" post around here in ages.

 

Of course I've seen it before on every message board on every subject on the entire internet.

 

Not bad though, I give it a 7.5.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

Ah yes. We haven't seen a "You're all a bunch of losers, back away from the keyboard, go outside and get some fresh air" post around here in ages.

 

Of course I've seen it before on every message board on every subject on the entire internet.

 

Not bad though, I give it a 7.5.

 

[+Kit Fox]

All I see on this thread are a lot of blowhards who all share common denominators of being fast typers, well versed in aspects of the Tubes like forums and membership sites, have more than a passing interest in literature, and enjoy typing.

 

I'll take your opinion and throw it back at you. Compared to your 5 months of "vast geocaching experience," I've cached for 5 1/2 years, found over 7 times the number of caches you have, and I've hidden 141 more caches than you. I'm also a big fan of playing on the forum in my down time. To say that we are unexperienced, or lack opinions that you deem qualified is laughable.

 

Of course the majority using this forum are long-log writers because they are also here typing long and/or meaningful forum posts.

 

It's ridiculous to read these forums and think you suddenly have found the heartbeat of geocaching and that the majority of geocachers are think this way, because I assure you they do not. This forum is a subculture of certain geocachers who share certain attributes... writing lots of words being one of them.

 

I have come to the conclusion that the only opinion on this topic I could actually respect is one of those who does not use the forums at all.

 

There are many different types of people yet I see people here making huge hasty generalisations, as though they have gone and consulted the statistics or conducted surveys, then simply stating it as fact.

 

Here's some advice, if I haven't already enraged you so much with my opinion above that you can't see through the red mist, get out of your little geocaching ghetto and go meet some people in real life.

Seek first to understand, if you wish to be understood.

 

From my previous jobs of customer service, and my 12 1/2 years working in a large jail system, I can honestly say i've met thousands people from all walks of life. Does that make me better than you? The answer is no, but to hear you say we are unexperienced, haven't a clue, makes me think you enjoy being a bloviator yourself.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

I'll take your opinion and throw it back at you. Compared to your 5 months of "vast geocaching experience," I've cached for 5 1/2 years, found over 7 times the number of caches you have, and I've hidden 141 more caches than you. I'm also a big fan of playing on the forum in my down time. To say that we are unexperienced, or lack opinions that you deem qualified is laughable.

 

See my forum signature.

 

And if the only argument you have is to attempt to beat an argument by citing exerience or credentials... I actually pity you.

Edited November 29, 2009 by _TeamFitz_

[Clan Riffster]

Don't... Feed... The... Troll...

[+Kit Fox]

I'll take your opinion and throw it back at you. Compared to your 5 months of "vast geocaching experience," I've cached for 5 1/2 years, found over 7 times the number of caches you have, and I've hidden 141 more caches than you. I'm also a big fan of playing on the forum in my down time. To say that we are unexperienced, or lack opinions that you deem qualified is laughable.

 

See my forum signature.

 

And if the only argument you have is to attempt to beat an argument by citing exerience or credentials... I actually pity you.

 

My experience comes from "out in the field time," as a geocacher and as a geocache owner who appreciates geocachers who take the time to write personal logs, not "TFTC."

 

So far, your doing nothing more than trolling in this thread, you havent added anything substantive to the discussion at hand. As for your link, it is broken.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Kit Fox

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

How am I trolling? Trolling is now posting an opinion you personally don't like? Or is this an underhand tactic to get me banned from the forums by labelling me as such?

 

Let's go back over your original response and fisk it shall we?

 

I'll take your opinion and throw it back at you. Compared to your 5 months of "vast geocaching experience," I've cached for 5 1/2 years, found over 7 times the number of caches you have, and I've hidden 141 more caches than you.

 

where did you get the quote "vast geocaching experience" - I didn't state these words or anything near them.

 

I can't believe you're basically trumping my opinion with a post about experience. Words just fail me completely if that is the only way you can present an argument. All I can say is 20 years experience may simply be 1 year repeated 20 times.

 

But then what is the point of debating with you at all, you're pretty much convinced of your own superiority and not open to fresh new ideas. I'm just glad there are people who don't think like you or we may not have had the major technological inventions we've had of the past 100 years and beyond.

 

I'm also a big fan of playing on the forum in my down time. To say that we are unexperienced, or lack opinions that you deem qualified is laughable.

 

Once again, stating words and phrases that didn't come from me. Are you sure you were responding to my post? inexperienced? I think the only people stating that - as an argument against my position is you and briansnat. "lack opinions?" who said this? Not me, in fact I think I inferred the opposite, these forums are full of blowhards offering their opinions from experience and credentials.

 

From my previous jobs of customer service, and my 12 1/2 years working in a large jail system, I can honestly say i've met thousands people from all walks of life.

 

How about we all just agree we've all met thousands of people everywhere, put this to bed.

 

The question here is has every single one of those people you've met had the same opinion of online geocaching logging as you? Do they have the same opinions on anything at all? Do you have any proof, a survey conducted? It's not trolling to ask for proof of some kind of survey.

 

I've found in my vast inexperienced life that the more people I meet and get to know the more I find differing opinions. Actually I'm glad for their differing opinions, they make me question my own position.

 

If I meet someone who has less experience than me in a subject with a differing opinion, I sometimes find I learn something - I most certainly don't try to beat them over the head with my own flawed experiences.

 

One of the best pieces of advice I ever received in my life was from a 6 year old. I won't divulge it here but all I'll say is sometimes the simplest understandings are the best way to approach life.

 

Does that make me better than you? The answer is no

 

I wouldn't have guess from the tone of your post - this feels more like a token statement than a heartfelt one.

 

but to hear you say we are unexperienced, haven't a clue, makes me think you enjoy being a bloviator yourself.

 

Once again, to hear me say... say what? You've basically put up a straw man argument.

 

My experience comes from "out in the field time," as a geocacher and as a geocache owner who appreciates geocachers who take the time to write personal logs, not "TFTC."

 

I don't think this thread was about TFTC, it's about story telling versus a short log. Some people have turned this into a TFTC.

 

Once again a straw man, as though my posts were about TFTC.

 

So far, your doing nothing more than trolling in this thread, you havent added anything substantive to the discussion at hand. As for your link, it is broken.

 

You've done nothing but set up a straw man to attack: inexperience, TFTC logging, lacking opinion, trolling - none of the things I mentioned in my post or response to briansnat.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

How am I trolling? Trolling is now posting an opinion you personally don't like? Or is this an underhand tactic to get me banned from the forums by labelling me as such?

You are not addressing the topic, and what you are posting is hostile and rude.

 

That's a shame, because I agree with some of what you've said.

 

However, your attack-dog manner is in fact trolling for a similar response.

 

Most of us can debate without our tactics being debatable, and disagree without being disagreeable. Try it out!

[+ThePetersTrio]

Don't... Feed... The... Troll...

 

Speaking of rude...

 

Why is it whenever someone who is fairly new starts posting and they are disagreeing with some of the people who are oldtimers (and by that I mean people who have been on these boards for years) they get called a "troll"? Does that mean you cannot debate or discuss the issue reasonably with this person and so you call him/her a troll as a way to make yourself feel superior without having to do any of the work of actually engaging in the discussion?

 

It kinda reminds me of my 12 year old rolling her eyes at me when she realizes that I have a valid point. Of course, she has the advantage of actually being an adolescent when she acts that way.

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

How am I trolling? Trolling is now posting an opinion you personally don't like? Or is this an underhand tactic to get me banned from the forums by labelling me as such?

You are not addressing the topic, and what you are posting is hostile and rude.

 

That's a shame, because I agree with some of what you've said.

 

However, your attack-dog manner is in fact trolling for a similar response.

 

Most of us can debate without our tactics being debatable, and disagree without being disagreeable. Try it out!

 

OK I accept that my style has been abrupt. It's something I need to work on - but I'm not fishing for similar responses, though I realise that is what I got.

 

I know this is throwing out another cliche, but the elitism in these forums sometimes reaches a level that is nausiating. So I react badly sometimes.

[CoyoteRed]

Seek first to understand, if you wish to be understood.

Good advise. Maybe you ought to take it.

 

I know this is throwing out another cliche, but the elitism in these forums sometimes reaches a level that is nausiating.

What you see as elitism is the attempt to keep a certain level of quality to the hobby that has been enjoyed up until recently. There has been a slow decline to the hobby into the lowest common denominator (something you're mentioned in a different context.) Yes, actions that we're talking about having been happening for a long time. There was no switch to flip, but it's been a slow infiltration of a certain type of hobbyist who is moving the hobby away from the way it was played years ago. Yes, you're one of the one's I'm talking about. Quite frankly, if those like you had never showed up on the scene this hobby would be better off.

 

How? Look at your own profile to garner a little insight. More than half your cache placements are micros--mostly in places that could support a much larger cache. Only one regular. Can't tell from the list the quality of the hide--time is short. From your finds you rather find a micro or small and definitely would rather find a traditional. Now I haven't done a whole lot of research to see if that's all that is available to you, but on first blush this tells me you're lazy. Place easy, cheap hides and like to maximize your smilie to effort ratio. Now, you're in a thread about log size and cut-n-paste.

 

Are you lazy? I don't know. Maybe your style of caching is all you know. You might not have ever had the chance to experience caching the way us old timers have. You know, (well, you wouldn't, never mind) the chaff-to-wheat ratio very low. Today, in order to get the wife out caching I have to hand pick caches for her. She'd rather not go when she used to be rabid about caching. Yes, it's that different.

 

I don't know, it could be you're defending short or cut-n-paste logs because you feel that's all your caches are getting and you think that's a measure of your caches. Guess what, it is.

 

Anyway, the elitism you see is actually you looking up to a standard many of us have seen exist and would like for that to continue.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Seek first to understand, if you wish to be understood.

Good advise. Maybe you ought to take it.

 

I know this is throwing out another cliche, but the elitism in these forums sometimes reaches a level that is nausiating.

What you see as elitism is the attempt to keep a certain level of quality to the hobby that has been enjoyed up until recently. There has been a slow decline to the hobby into the lowest common denominator (something you're mentioned in a different context.) Yes, actions that we're talking about having been happening for a long time. There was no switch to flip, but it's been a slow infiltration of a certain type of hobbyist who is moving the hobby away from the way it was played years ago. Yes, you're one of the one's I'm talking about. Quite frankly, if those like you had never showed up on the scene this hobby would be better off.

 

How? Look at your own profile to garner a little insight. More than half your cache placements are micros--mostly in places that could support a much larger cache. Only one regular. Can't tell from the list the quality of the hide--time is short. From your finds you rather find a micro or small and definitely would rather find a traditional. Now I haven't done a whole lot of research to see if that's all that is available to you, but on first blush this tells me you're lazy. Place easy, cheap hides and like to maximize your smilie to effort ratio. Now, you're in a thread about log size and cut-n-paste.

 

Are you lazy? I don't know. Maybe your style of caching is all you know. You might not have ever had the chance to experience caching the way us old timers have. You know, (well, you wouldn't, never mind) the chaff-to-wheat ratio very low. Today, in order to get the wife out caching I have to hand pick caches for her. She'd rather not go when she used to be rabid about caching. Yes, it's that different.

 

I don't know, it could be you're defending short or cut-n-paste logs because you feel that's all your caches are getting and you think that's a measure of your caches. Guess what, it is.

 

Anyway, the elitism you see is actually you looking up to a standard many of us have seen exist and would like for that to continue.

Total bull-honkery and an unfair attack.

 

Perhaps he hides and finds micros because HE LIKES THEM! (As do I, but then I like all caches).

 

For you to scold and belittle someone because they do not play the game your way is completely out of line!

[+CanUK_TeamFitz]

What you see as elitism is the attempt to keep a certain level of quality to the hobby that has been enjoyed up until recently. There has been a slow decline to the hobby into the lowest common denominator (something you're mentioned in a different context.) Yes, actions that we're talking about having been happening for a long time. There was no switch to flip, but it's been a slow infiltration of a certain type of hobbyist who is moving the hobby away from the way it was played years ago. Yes, you're one of the one's I'm talking about. Quite frankly, if those like you had never showed up on the scene this hobby would be better off.

 

How? Look at your own profile to garner a little insight. More than half your cache placements are micros--mostly in places that could support a much larger cache. Only one regular. Can't tell from the list the quality of the hide--time is short. From your finds you rather find a micro or small and definitely would rather find a traditional. Now I haven't done a whole lot of research to see if that's all that is available to you, but on first blush this tells me you're lazy. Place easy, cheap hides and like to maximize your smilie to effort ratio. Now, you're in a thread about log size and cut-n-paste.

 

Are you lazy? I don't know. Maybe your style of caching is all you know. You might not have ever had the chance to experience caching the way us old timers have. You know, (well, you wouldn't, never mind) the chaff-to-wheat ratio very low. Today, in order to get the wife out caching I have to hand pick caches for her. She'd rather not go when she used to be rabid about caching. Yes, it's that different.

 

I don't know, it could be you're defending short or cut-n-paste logs because you feel that's all your caches are getting and you think that's a measure of your caches. Guess what, it is.

 

Anyway, the elitism you see is actually you looking up to a standard many of us have seen exist and would like for that to continue.

 

I'll admit, that just knocked me for six. I didn't think this was going to degrade into a discussion on my own finds and caches placed....

 

It's pretty obvious you've never lived in England. I came back from being introduced to caching in Canada to find that the majority of caches hidden here are micros and small - not that I'm complaining.

 

Generally our countryside is flatter than yours, I don't live 5 minutes from any mountains, so terrain tends to be no more than a 3.

 

Our countryside is probably used a lot more than yours too being smaller, hence smaller hides are easier to keep hidden, but yes there are some unnecessary micros hidden in the woods.

 

This means, unfortunately that all we have to find are micro and small, and the occasional regular. If you'd read my profile further, you'd see I've been attempting more puzzles lately on the difficulty scale, because I like a challenge. But for England, the terrain challenges are mostly horizontal and not vertical - so the they tend to be easy if you are just looking at one cache.

 

With regards to my own hides, the micros are hidden in places that I assure you larger containers could not be hidden, however that's difficult to prove to you since you are slating me from such a distance away.

 

Thankfully I have met geocachers that are not like you, and so your comments won't make me kick this hobby too easily.

 

There is a simple solution if you're not enjoying this hobby anymore. Quit. Stop hunting for micros - too bad I can't see the caches you logged because you use a variation of a sock-puppet account but I see 6 micros there with disparaging remarks from you.

 

The question is if you no longer get enjoyment from something, why do it? I'm frequently surprised when the miserable old fogies complain about the quality and saturation, when it's suggested they try terracaching or opencaching they're objection is that there's not enough caches there to find.

 

Yes, you're one of the one's I'm talking about. Quite frankly, if those like you had never showed up on the scene this hobby would be better off.

 

Quite frankly if those like you would just leave this game and let us who enjoy it carry on this hobby would be better off.