Boneman65 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? I have had a few back-and-forth exchanges with my local reviewer before either getting approved or abandoning/altering my idea. Never had gone as far as taking it to Groundspeak for appeal. Never found a reason to. Quote Link to comment
+bittsen Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I have never had to take it past the reviewer but one cache took 4 "clarifications". Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? I have had a few back-and-forth exchanges with my local reviewer before either getting approved or abandoning/altering my idea. Never had gone as far as taking it to Groundspeak for appeal. Never found a reason to. What the dog said. So how long before we get the full story behind the OP's post...? Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Had a few questions to answer from time to time and 1 of mine got rejected outright but I knew it was a bit over the top and it was very early in my caching career - so no I have never appealed. Quote Link to comment
Boneman65 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 What the dog said. So how long before we get the full story behind the OP's post...? Left that part out on purpose. Nobody likes a troublemaker, although I think I already shot that dog in an earlier thread. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 So how long before we get the full story behind the OP's post...? I think I have a pretty good idea. Eager to see if my theory holds up, though. Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Had to do some explaining and lobbying for one that is on a pedestrian walkway that carries a greenway bike trail over the beltline once. Nothing more to it than that. Everything else has been published without much ado. Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What the dog said. So how long before we get the full story behind the OP's post...? Left that part out on purpose. Nobody likes a troublemaker, although I think I already shot that dog in an earlier thread. I think you'll get more in the way of real help if you keep it off the forums and work out the problems with the reviewer. The reviewers want nothing more than to publish your cache, but they will follow the guidelines. Work with them, not against them. If they have given you a clear set of "change this and we can work something out" then it's usually best to change that one thing. Dragging reviewer issues into the forums probably won't win you any points. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What the dog said. So how long before we get the full story behind the OP's post...? Left that part out on purpose. Nobody likes a troublemaker, although I think I already shot that dog in an earlier thread. Ouch! Think we could use a different metaphore, please? Sounds like my guess was right-on, though. Still haven't been able to get that cache archived, huh? You might win the battle, but lose the war. Your reviewer is your friend. Trust him, work with him, and he will do the same with you. Quote Link to comment
Boneman65 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Ouch! Think we could use a different metaphore, please? Sounds like my guess was right-on, though. Still haven't been able to get that cache archived, huh? You might win the battle, but lose the war. Your reviewer is your friend. Trust him, work with him, and he will do the same with you. That wasn't it at all. (I was wondering what you were getting at!) Jeepers, I'm not that petty. Edited August 18, 2009 by Boneman65 Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Ouch! Think we could use a different metaphore, please? Sounds like my guess was right-on, though. Still haven't been able to get that cache archived, huh? You might win the battle, but lose the war. Your reviewer is your friend. Trust him, work with him, and he will do the same with you. That wasn't it at all. (I was wondering what you were getting at!) Jeepers, I'm not that petty. Hey... you shot the dog, didn't you? Seriously... anybody that uses the word, "Jeepers" can't be all that bad. Quote Link to comment
NH Zamboni Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Hi Boneman. I took a look at your cache submission and since you are still in active discussion with your local reviewer wonder why you're considering contacting appeals. When your reviewer requested additional information your correspondence is honest, straightforward and informative which says a lot about your credibility. I'd recommend you continue perusing options with your reviewer with hopes of a viable solution to get your cache published. I appreciate you keeping the details out of the forums however, intentional or not, the thread could be perceived as an attempt to undermine your reviewer which could degrade your credibility and not always an ideal solution. NH Zamboni volunteer reviewer for NH / VT Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Just when I was starting to think the Reviewers quit reading the forums. WHA-BAM! Quote Link to comment
Boneman65 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Hi Boneman. I took a look at your cache submission and since you are still in active discussion with your local reviewer wonder why you're considering contacting appeals. When your reviewer requested additional information your correspondence is honest, straightforward and informative which says a lot about your credibility. I'd recommend you continue perusing options with your reviewer with hopes of a viable solution to get your cache published. I appreciate you keeping the details out of the forums however, intentional or not, the thread could be perceived as an attempt to undermine your reviewer which could degrade your credibility and not always an ideal solution. NH Zamboni volunteer reviewer for NH / VT Problem is, Zamboni, is that I'm a too eager noob with a lot of misguided notions and silly questions. Hopefully I'll be absolved of these as time goes by and I gain feedback from the people here who are good enough to give it. For the second time this week, I probably should apologize. I think I'll just stick to just reading the forums for the next little while. Quote Link to comment
+hydnsek Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Had to do some explaining and lobbying for one that is on a pedestrian walkway that carries a greenway bike trail over the beltline once. I did that cache! On my one and only trip to Raleigh a couple years ago. Very cool, but I can see why the reviewers might have had questions. Quote Link to comment
NH Zamboni Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Problem is, Zamboni, is that I'm a too eager noob with a lot of misguided notions and silly questions. Hopefully I'll be absolved of these as time goes by and I gain feedback from the people here who are good enough to give it. For the second time this week, I probably should apologize. I appreciate your enthusiasm for our hobby. The ideal place for misguided notions and silly questions are these forums. I think I'll just stick to just reading the forums for the next little while. I'd recommend the opposite Keep up the good work. -Z Quote Link to comment
+WebChimp Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? Nope. I live in a groovy world. Quote Link to comment
+Jeep_Dog Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Yup, I have twice. Ultimately, both caches were approved. The first one was discussed in the forums, and can be found at this link: angst over cache approval. The second one, I just appealed to contact@geocaching.com, and had an answer within three days. Both times, the reviewer was dead-right on not approving the caches IAW the guidelines. However, I learned on both that the guidelines are there for common sense, and sometimes common sense doesn't fit the guidelines. TPTB applied common sense and made an exception to the guidelines in both of mine. Quote Link to comment
+Puppy Dawg Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? I have gone to Groundspeak a grand total of 37 times, 24 of them got published. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I think I'll just stick to just reading the forums for the next little while. I'd recommend the opposite See? Reviewers r smart! Quote Link to comment
+TexasGringo Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 When I was in Madison, WI....I've had the reviewer make me change a couple spots of a Multi-Cache....but I never complained or appealed.... I've also had the same reviewer help me with some web-page stuff to get my cache going.... And No problems down in the Dallas area....except I placed a cache too near a multi-stage a few times and it wasn't approved. So, I can't complain.... Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Never had a problem getting a cache approved. I've had reviewers ask questions that delayed the publication. "Have you read, and do you understand the guidelines?" "Yup" Quote Link to comment
+JustJackMN Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. He just approved a location that he would not approve of for me saying it was too close to the rr tracks. When I questioned him about it he said the other cache was farther away. I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Yup, I have twice. Ultimately, both caches were approved. The first one was discussed in the forums, and can be found at this link: angst over cache approval. The second one, I just appealed to contact@geocaching.com, and had an answer within three days. Both times, the reviewer was dead-right on not approving the caches IAW the guidelines. However, I learned on both that the guidelines are there for common sense, and sometimes common sense doesn't fit the guidelines. TPTB applied common sense and made an exception to the guidelines in both of mine. I looked at that thread, and that was a long time ago. I believe you would now take your issue to appeals at geocaching.com, not contact at geocaching.com Have I used it? well, sort of. I helped a then very young cacher (this was in 2005) get a physical cache approved very close to the arbitrary viewing coordinates to an Earthcache I own. The appeal was successful. Despite some of the replies in this thread, your local reviewer is not the ultimate authority on matters, and sometimes they can be wrong. This is why the appeals at geocaching.com email address exists. Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. He just approved a location that he would not approve of for me saying it was too close to the rr tracks. When I questioned him about it he said the other cache was farther away. I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. Lose the name calling. Not appropriate. Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. He just approved a location that he would not approve of for me saying it was too close to the rr tracks. When I questioned him about it he said the other cache was farther away. I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. If I was a betting Space Dog I would bet that there is more to this story than you present. Good luck in your future working relationship with your "doorknob", whatever that means. Quote Link to comment
Keystone Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 (edited) I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. He just approved a location that he would not approve of for me saying it was too close to the rr tracks. When I questioned him about it he said the other cache was farther away. I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. The coordinates for the new cache are 78 feet away from the coordinates posted for jacknsue's cache. Under a railroad guideline where 150 feet is the default test distance, 78 feet further away from the tracks can mean the difference between "published" and "archived." It would appear that jacknsue need to learn how to measure coordinates accurately in addition to learning how to behave in an internet forum. ... and now you know the REST of the story. In contrast, I found the OP's question entirely appropriate, and his conduct exemplary. When I say "no" to a cache, I encourage geocachers to pursue their appeal rights and I assure them that it doesn't bother me when they do. Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. Edited August 19, 2009 by Keystone Quote Link to comment
Nomex Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache Quote Link to comment
+doingitoldschool Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? NO, of course not, and I never, ever will. Can my awesomest, bestest reviewer hear me? That's d...o...i...(I think you get the picture) Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? NO, of course not, and I never, ever will. Can my awesomest, bestest reviewer hear me? That's d...o...i...(I think you get the picture) I think you deserve an admin brick for excessive sucking up. Quote Link to comment
+mrbort Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Creepy. I am not able to award admin bricks, but if I could your little pun would not likely rise to the level required to receive one. If you are indeed attempting to exemplify the work product needed you will need to step up your efforts considerably. Quote Link to comment
+mrbort Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Creepy. I am not able to award admin bricks, but if I could your little pun would not likely rise to the level required to receive one. If you are indeed attempting to exemplify the work product needed you will need to step up your efforts considerably. Er.. I just meant the awesome metal pantaloons... That was my not serious suck up to the volunteer reviwer who I have never seen or heard of. I dont get the bit about the pun (and based on your response I don't want to!) so I guess it was unintentional. I was just trying to be funny but I guess, like in various things, I failed. Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Creepy. I am not able to award admin bricks, but if I could your little pun would not likely rise to the level required to receive one. If you are indeed attempting to exemplify the work product needed you will need to step up your efforts considerably. Er.. I just meant the awesome metal pantaloons... That was my not serious suck up to the volunteer reviwer who I have never seen or heard of. I dont get the bit about the pun (and based on your response I don't want to!) so I guess it was unintentional. I was just trying to be funny but I guess, like in various things, I failed. I was referring to the nomex undies that I thought you were referring to. Like you I was just trying to be funny. I guess I failed as well. Quote Link to comment
+mrbort Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Creepy. I am not able to award admin bricks, but if I could your little pun would not likely rise to the level required to receive one. If you are indeed attempting to exemplify the work product needed you will need to step up your efforts considerably. Er.. I just meant the awesome metal pantaloons... That was my not serious suck up to the volunteer reviwer who I have never seen or heard of. I dont get the bit about the pun (and based on your response I don't want to!) so I guess it was unintentional. I was just trying to be funny but I guess, like in various things, I failed. I was referring to the nomex undies that I thought you were referring to. Like you I was just trying to be funny. I guess I failed as well. dammit! now I dont know to what I was referring... and it sucks that we both flopped... (I'm willing to take the blame on this one if you're willing to let me take the blame on the next one)... I just did a search on nomex undies and turns out that it's a pretty common phrase. That's probably why "undies" clicked into my head unconsciously. Solved... Now calling: The next stupid post of mine! Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. This doorknob completely agrees with the above. I think the OP had an excellent and most appropriate question as well. Good luck with the cache I like your undies.... can I get wrastro's prize? Creepy. I am not able to award admin bricks, but if I could your little pun would not likely rise to the level required to receive one. If you are indeed attempting to exemplify the work product needed you will need to step up your efforts considerably. Er.. I just meant the awesome metal pantaloons... That was my not serious suck up to the volunteer reviwer who I have never seen or heard of. I dont get the bit about the pun (and based on your response I don't want to!) so I guess it was unintentional. I was just trying to be funny but I guess, like in various things, I failed. I was referring to the nomex undies that I thought you were referring to. Like you I was just trying to be funny. I guess I failed as well. dammit! now I dont know to what I was referring... and it sucks that we both flopped... (I'm willing to take the blame on this one if you're willing to let me take the blame on the next one)... I just did a search on nomex undies and turns out that it's a pretty common phrase. That's probably why "undies" clicked into my head unconsciously. Solved... Now calling: The next stupid post of mine! Ok, I am also willing to admit you were wrong. Glad we got that resolved. I will take your offer under consideration but I wouldn't hold out much hope. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 In a desperate attempt to steer this back on topic, (not that nomex undie discussions are a bad thing), I can say I've never felt the need to forward any reviewer decisions up the chain of command. I've had long talks with all three of them, (4 if you count Greg), and I can say with some certainty that, as cachers themselves, they will bend over backward to help folks get their caches published. Every single guideline error I've made had clearly been a fault of mine, and they were all resolved peacefully, without the need to pester any Groundspeak Lackeys. Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 In a desperate attempt to steer this back on topic, (not that nomex undie discussions are a bad thing), I can say I've never felt the need to forward any reviewer decisions up the chain of command. I've had long talks with all three of them, (4 if you count Greg), and I can say with some certainty that, as cachers themselves, they will bend over backward to help folks get their caches published. Every single guideline error I've made had clearly been a fault of mine, and they were all resolved peacefully, without the need to pester any Groundspeak Lackeys. Spoilsport. All of my caches have been approved as submitted. Boring, I know. Quote Link to comment
+Sagefox Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? Nope. Not with 111 caches placed have I had to fight for a placement. I got rejected on two virtuals when the "wow" factor hit and I hadn't heard of it. I was grumpy for about an hour and then agreed that the two murals I was trying to tag, great though they were, they were just two in literally a million on the west coast. I had one cache accepted within 20' of an active railroad (one with a whopping 20 mph speed limit along the entire line). I presented my case well with lots of supporting logic and got it approved without additional questions asked. The reviewer consulted with others and then published it. Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. Next time I see "the doorknob" at an event, we will have a good chuckle over that, I'm sure! Most of us think S.J. does an awesome job for us. Quote Link to comment
+Castle Mischief Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? I have gone to Groundspeak a grand total of 37 times, 24 of them got published. Holy cow. Without getting bogged down in the details, could you tell us what the general difficulties were? I only ask because of such a stupendous number (compared to my experience and the responses of the posters in this thread). Quote Link to comment
+ArcherDragoon Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. He just approved a location that he would not approve of for me saying it was too close to the rr tracks. When I questioned him about it he said the other cache was farther away. I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. The coordinates for the new cache are 78 feet away from the coordinates posted for jacknsue's cache. Under a railroad guideline where 150 feet is the default test distance, 78 feet further away from the tracks can mean the difference between "published" and "archived." It would appear that jacknsue need to learn how to measure coordinates accurately in addition to learning how to behave in an internet forum. ... and now you know the REST of the story. In contrast, I found the OP's question entirely appropriate, and his conduct exemplary. When I say "no" to a cache, I encourage geocachers to pursue their appeal rights and I assure them that it doesn't bother me when they do. Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. Glad we got more of the story...but is basically what I thought... I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. Next time I see "the doorknob" at an event, we will have a good chuckle over that, I'm sure! Most of us think S.J. does an awesome job for us. Agreed!!! Topic at hand: Nope...never have taken anything to appeals...my reviewer has been great from the start. I made a number of mistakes when I was very new... SurferJoe is a great reviewer... Quote Link to comment
+Jeep_Dog Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I looked at that thread, and that was a long time ago. I believe you would now take your issue to appeals at geocaching.com, not contact at geocaching.com Dude, the preferred nomenclature to "long time ago" is "in the days not so long ago in which we had different guidelines and appeal procedures." Tell me if one thing has changed: who gets the chocolate now that hydee is a retired lackey? Hmmmm? Ack! I did indeed steer wrong, my white urkel friend! It is appeals@, not contact@. You know, I'm going to go back under the "long time ago" rock from which I crawled... In contrast, I found the OP's question entirely appropriate, and his conduct exemplary. When I say "no" to a cache, I encourage geocachers to pursue their appeal rights and I assure them that it doesn't bother me when they do. Knowing there's an appeal process promotes confidence in the listing service. Once again, Keystone demonstrates he's a swell guy who restores the peasants' confidence in reviewers and the review process in general. (and, no, my pursed lips are not firmly planted upon his buttocks!) Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 (edited) I have and our reviewer is a doorknob. Next time I see "the doorknob" at an event, we will have a good chuckle over that, I'm sure! Most of us think S.J. does an awesome job for us. Doesn't that just mean that anyone who grabs him can have a turn? I found the cache about a football's length from where mine would have been. Go figure. The coordinates for the new cache are 78 feet away from the coordinates posted for jacknsue's cache. Under a railroad guideline where 150 feet is the default test distance, 78 feet further away from the tracks can mean the difference between "published" and "archived." It would appear that jacknsue need to learn how to measure coordinates accurately in addition to learning how to behave in an internet forum. ... and now you know the REST of the story. Must have been one of them Paul Bunyan sized footballs. Edited August 19, 2009 by wimseyguy Quote Link to comment
knowschad Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Once again, Keystone demonstrates he's a swell guy who restores the peasants' confidence in reviewers and the review process in general. (and, no, my pursed lips are not firmly planted upon his buttocks!) Just lightly touching? Quote Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Once again, Keystone demonstrates he's a swell guy who restores the peasants' confidence in reviewers and the review process in general. (and, no, my pursed lips are not firmly planted upon his buttocks!) Just lightly touching? Still standing in line waiting his turn. Quote Link to comment
+mtn-man Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? NO, of course not, and I never, ever will. Can my awesomest, bestest reviewer hear me? That's d...o...i...(I think you get the picture) I hear your reviewer has dog ears and can hear really well. I've never had a problem with my reviewer either. Cheers to gpsfun and erik88l-r. Quote Link to comment
+doingitoldschool Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 A lot of you have placed a lot of caches. Have you ever had to fight for a placement, or go through the appeal process? NO, of course not, and I never, ever will. Can my awesomest, bestest reviewer hear me? That's d...o...i...(I think you get the picture) I hear your reviewer has dog ears and can hear really well. I've never had a problem with my reviewer either. Cheers to gpsfun and erik88l-r. You're the best! Seriously, Good job. There's a lot of people out there who think that your job is to simply approve a cache, and you do a good job of balancing our whimsey with the rules and expectations of gs. Quote Link to comment
+BackPAQer Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 So far, not yet. But I got pretty narky with my local reviewer because he held up publishing my event cache on "a pesky unwritten guideline". So...if it isn't a guideline that anyone is able to read...what's the hassle? Anyway...I complied and cache is now published. I've now published another event which is due to happen in 3 weeks time...I published it 3 days ago. I think the reviewer is ignoring me...so the event might not get released in time. Or he's hoping he can ignore it until it passes the 2 week minimum notice guideline so that he can veto me on a "written guideline" just to make a point. Though it's probably just my hot-headed paranoia... Quote Link to comment
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