(ODS) The One Degree of Separation Project

[vtmtnman]

Don't confuse me in this either Snoog,I still want to be a part of this.

[Mushtang]

I like how some folks bring up the original cache, complete with eyerolls. Sure, it wasn't in a scenic location though far better than a lot of less-than-inspired locations I've seen, it was on private property, was partially buried, and had food. At least it was in a sturdy container, had a logbook you could document what you took and left, and ~gasp~ had trade items!

 

Let's not forget it was also a prototype, so to speak.

 

What I saw was the quality of hides start to increase over time.

 

Sure, there were the soggy, less-than-inspired regular-sized caches, but guess what, folks probably figured cache had to be a regular and have trinkets to trade otherwise is wasn't a "real" cache. Today, those same types of folks are simply tossing out micros, because for some a trinket-less cache (a micro fits the bill) in an uninspired location is good enough.

 

Personally, I'd trade a lame uninspired cache for a Original Stash-like cache any day, all day, time after time.

This is the tired old argument of people that want to preach that their way is the best way. Quality is subjective. Something you see as low in quality becuase it's a micro, someone else sees as a really neat and well thought out project involving and uniting many cachers, caches, locations, all over the world.

 

You can't comprehend that if someone else enjoys something, it can be good, and good for the game, even if you don't enjoy it.

 

If you prefer a cache like the Original Stash, then that's what you should 1) hide, and 2) search for. You'll be a lot happier.

[+Snoogans]

Don't confuse me in this either Snoog,I still want to be a part of this.

 

 

You WILL be. ODS: PRIME!'s friends list is growing by the hour. If I can silence or at least hush the minority voice of dissent in phase 2 then all the better.

 

 

I expected dissent when I posted here. I knew full well what I was walking into. What I didn't expect was to confirm I am on the right track so quickly. I'm taking some hits, but I'm happy.

[vtmtnman]

Don't confuse me in this either Snoog,I still want to be a part of this.

 

 

You WILL be. ODS: PRIME!'s friends list is growing by the hour. If I can silence or at least hush the minority voice of dissent in phase 2 then all the better.

 

 

I expected dissent when I posted here. I knew full well what I was walking into. What I didn't expect was to confirm I am on the right track so quickly. I'm taking some hits, but I'm happy.

You'd be pretty nieve to think you could mention flim canister in here and NOT take hits.

[+Team GeoBlast]

What's wrong with ordinary and mundane? EVERYTHING can't be extraordinary

 

Why not just punt on third down then?

[Clan Riffster]

There are ONLY 712 Official ODS caches at this time. The project is 1 year old and noticeably slowing its foreword progress. What are the odds that 12,000+ micro hides will be the end result?

Kewl! Are all 712 ODS's film canisters? If so, I'd say that was roughly 712 too many carpy containers in the wild. Or, are some of those 712 plastic coffee cans? The purpose of a cache is to protect its contents, right? A film canister is second only to Gladware in failing to adequately protect its contents. Large plastic coffee cans are also notoriously bad at protecting their contents in harsh environments. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against film canisters, Gladware or coffee cans. I think they are great containers for holding film in my camera case, leftovers in my fridge and coffee in my cupboard, respectively. They just happen to stink at holding cache contents, even when those contents are nothing more than a scrap of paper and a pencil nub. Naturally, you can take the time to find a spot where a carpy container won't be affected by weather, (like my closet), or you can use a decent container and avoid the issue altogether. You opted to utilize two of the carpiest containers known to geocaching, and infect the planet with them. Do you find it odd that folks might not be wetting their pants in anticipation of your next blatant ego boost?

 

Had you given away 12,000 non-carpy containers, I imagine your detractors would be few and far between.

[+Snoogans]

 

What's wrong with ordinary and mundane? EVERYTHING can't be extraordinary

 

Why not just punt on third down then?

 

 

 

Let's not mix metaphors. I was referring to GEOCACHING.

 

 

 

If your sense of the extraordinary is so acute that you can't appreciate the VALUE of the merely ordinary then maybe your sense of expectation and entitlement need to be racheted down a few notches.

 

 

 

And by "you" in this context, I mean the royal you. I'm not on the attack.

[+TrailGators]

Okay, it is time, I guess, for me to weigh in here. As you likely know, I am not a fan of MicroSpew, aka LUMs. While I am certainly not as extreme as the Hawaiian cacher who brags that he CITOS all the LUMs which he encounters, I remain appalled at the proliferation of the genre. Now, I enjoy Snoogans, his posts and most of his caches (yes, I have found several) and projects a lot, but I do have strong reservations about the ODS project. . .

 

First, as several posters have already mentioned, such a project can easily lead to the proliferation of more kudzu, oops, I mean MicroSpew. On the other hand, that does not necessarily have to be the case... As we have already seen, at least a few of the ODS caches which have been examined here were intelligently placed in great settings. And, for another example, my wife Sue somehow ended up with an ODS seed last year, and she chose to make it into a 2/2 puzzle cache which tends to receive rather lengthy and effusive find logs. However, I doubt seriously that the majority of cachers who end up with an ODS seed in their hands would necesarily manage to reach the same level of quality as that seen with some of the better high-end ODS cache hides, and thus, I am VERY relieved to learn that only about 712 of the 13,000 ODS seeds have actually been emplaced and listed so far. However, even that number may be just a bit too much!

 

Next, I must agree with CyBret and CR (and other posters) that the thesis of one degree of separation because one has handled or found a cache which is a part of the ODS project is somewhat shaky and specious. Much like CyBret and CR, I would prefer to measure degrees of separation not by such tenuous threads but rather by criteria which are more solid and robust, such as actually meeting a cacher who has met other cachers.

 

Lastly, no offense to Snoogans nor anyone else, but, much like CyBret, I also made the linguistic leap to the synonymous term "odious" when I first heard of the ODS project last year!

This sums up my feelings as well.....O.D.S....ODIOUS......How ironic is that! You have to see the humor in that. Well maybe one day you'll laugh about it.... Edited May 20, 2007 by TrailGators

[+KBI]

The primary complaint I hear over and over from those who loudly despise easy urban micros is that those types of hides would be more ‘acceptable’ to them if only people would put more creativity into those hides.

 

One of the specific forms of creativity that is almost always suggested by these Complainers is a theme.

 

Now along comes someone who has managed to do exactly what is asked for by the Complainers: He has applied creativity, he has made the micros more interesting, and he has done so by applying a rather cool and interesting theme.

 

The fact that the regular Complainers continue to complain just as loudly in the face of this new and clever theme disproves the very integrity of the “we’re only asking for a little more creativity” argument.

 

EDIT: grammar

Edited May 20, 2007 by KBI

[+Team GeoBlast]

 

What's wrong with ordinary and mundane? EVERYTHING can't be extraordinary

 

Why not just punt on third down then?

 

 

 

Let's not mix metaphors. I was referring to GEOCACHING.

 

 

 

If your sense of the extraordinary is so acute that you can't appreciate the VALUE of the merely ordinary then maybe your sense of expectation and entitlement need to be racheted down a few notches.

 

 

 

And by "you" in this context, I mean the royal you. I'm not on the attack.

 

 

I suppose I should rewind the clock and start at the "kickoff" of ODS in my state.

 

Our first and only experience with ODS was a vacation cache that was placed in the middle of an insect infested thorn bush, less than 10 feet from a road way where cars average 50mph. The cache itself was a second hand ice chest with about 30 film canisters inside. Understand that this cache was placed in Ewa Beach, an area where a tourist would have to be very lost to be in. When local cachers mentioned to the visitor that this was not really the kind of cache that is encouraged in Hawaii and that the cache was missing, this was her parting words before archiving it;

 

March 11 by ashcoveredsoul (177 found)

"I have had my relative pick up the geocache. I had good intentions in placing this One Degree of Separation Cache. I placed it in Hawaii hoping tourists would take a mini cache and move to their homeland. Unfortunately all that happened was a bunch of locals complaining and whining and stealing the mini caches. I had originally wanted to place it in a nearby park, but someone not following the rules placed a mystery cache and against geocaching rules did not keep the actual cache within the required distance (1-2 miles of posted coordinates). A little traffic and a few thorns have not kept me from geocaches. All who griped are a bunch of judgemental, rule-breaking, holier than thou's. I had read blogs on geocaching sites about the attitude of hawaii geocachers. I was hoping they were wrong, but I found them to be spot on. I appreciate those that enjoyed the cache, and hope you will plant the mini caches. Good riddance Hawaii."

 

I suppose it bears mentioning that for several weeks afterward, this very lovely and engaging visitor took it upon herself to place nasty notes on several cache pages owned by the people who took exception to this hide. It was the only time we have ever had a cacher behave this way.

 

Granted, it could be that my acute sense of the extraordinary has overridden my ability to appreciate the value of the ODS project in my state. But with the kind of numbers that the ODS project has put up, is it reasonable to say this is an isolated incident? Your posted photos were of the extraordinary (hundreds of nice sized caches that are well camo'd and ready for distribution). Given our experience with the project, one has to wonder if that was a slight misreputation of what is -really- happening with this project.

 

To be clear, I am not attacking you personally but rather I am questioning the value of the ODS project to geocaching in a general sense.

Edited May 20, 2007 by Team GeoBlast

[+mamid]

I'd love to place one of those caches. just tell me what I need to do. ^.^

 

 

To participate in the first phase, just find an ODS seed pod and take a seed to hide yourself.

 

 

To participate in the second phase, just send ODS: PRIME! a friend request.

 

 

When phase two is in pre-launch, you and all the others on ODS: PRIME!'s friends list will be notified of how to begin getting your cache together (if you wish to participate), suggested page set-up, where to download the official log forms, and of the exact launch date. It will be at least a few months before the launch is announced.

The nearest pod to me that doesn't require crossing an international border requires a two hour ferry trip after an hour in the car. I looked.

Edited May 20, 2007 by mamid

[+HoustonControl]

OK, I'm one of those misguided folks who helps Snoogans put this together. I donated some Folgers cans I collected from work (shift workers drink LOTS of coffee), attended at least one preliminary event to stuff micros.. uh, seed caches... and sand and paint the pod caches. At the GW4 event, I took two seed pod caches with me to place. One I placed in scenic vista location (well, as scenic as you can get on the flat coastal prairie), and the other I hid near a major freeway with the intent of making it easier for the seeds to be spread far and wide. The second placement was muggled (twice) and in retrospect probably wasn't that good of a spot. Live and learn!

 

I really enjoyed the events and the teamwork of putting the project together. After all, the entent of this geocaching thing is TO HAVE FUN. As a bonus, I ended up with a seed pod cache bearing my name hidden in Ontario, Canada, of all places!

Edited May 20, 2007 by HoustonControl

[+TrailGators]

The primary complaint I hear over and over from those who loudly despise easy urban micros is that those types of hides would be more 'acceptable' to them if only people would put more creativity into those hides.

 

One of the specific forms of creativity that is almost always suggested by these Complainers is a theme.

 

Now along comes someone who has managed to do exactly what is asked for by the Complainers: He has applied creativity, he has made the micros more interesting, and he has done so by applying a rather cool and interesting theme.

 

The fact that the regular Complainers continue to complain just as loudly in the face of this new and clever theme disproves the very integrity of the "we're only asking for a little more creativity" argument.

 

EDIT: grammar

Must you always argue? I call it arguespew. It gets really old. Can't we simply hear some honest opinions from both sides for once?

[+Texas Dreamweaver]

Although I know that this is really a part of Snoogans plot to overtake the free world, I have whole heartedly supported his ODS project. I did help at prep events in getting micro seeds into pods, etc. More importantly, whenever I am travelling to another part of the country I specifically look for ODS caches with "familiar names". Last November, while on business in Nashville, I set up my cache route to ensure that I could go to a seedpod named after a caching friend of mine. I was 700 miles from home and still connected to a fellow cacher. The cache owner offered to meet me for coffee and now I have cache friends in Nashville. I think that it is an effective tool to bring a different, more social aspect to traditional caching.

[+The Jester]

The primary complaint I hear over and over from those who loudly despise easy urban micros is that those types of hides would be more 'acceptable' to them if only people would put more creativity into those hides.

 

One of the specific forms of creativity that is almost always suggested by these Complainers is a theme.

 

Now along comes someone who has managed to do exactly what is asked for by the Complainers: He has applied creativity, he has made the micros more interesting, and he has done so by applying a rather cool and interesting theme.

 

The fact that the regular Complainers continue to complain just as loudly in the face of this new and clever theme disproves the very integrity of the "we're only asking for a little more creativity" argument.

 

EDIT: grammar

Must you always argue? I call it arguespew. It gets really old. Can't we simply hear some honest opinions from both sides for once?

Kettle meet Pot. Here's an interesting opinion shared that get's attacked for not letting opinions be heard (I think that's the arguement TG made, not that I see where it happened).

[+Snoogans]

OK, I'm one of those misguided folks who helps Snoogans put this together. I donated some Folgers cans I collected from work (shift workers drink LOTS of coffee), attended at least one preliminary event to stuff micros.. uh, seed caches... and sand and paint the pod caches. At the GW4 event, I took two seed pod caches with me to place. One I placed in scenic vista location (well, as scenic as you can get on the flat coastal prairie), and the other I hid near a major freeway with the intent of making it easier for the seeds to be spread far and wide. The second placement was muggled (twice) and in retrospect probably wasn't that good of a spot. Live and learn!

 

I really enjoyed the events and the teamwork of putting the project together. After all, the entent of this geocaching thing is TO HAVE FUN. As a bonus, I ended up with a seed pod cache bearing my name hidden in Ontario, Canada, of all places!

 

 

Larry, you and I BOTH know you were there to help for the free Cheese-its and soda.

[+Snoogans]

Although I know that this is really a part of Snoogans plot to overtake the free world, I have whole heartedly supported his ODS project. I did help at prep events in getting micro seeds into pods, etc. More importantly, whenever I am travelling to another part of the country I specifically look for ODS caches with "familiar names". Last November, while on business in Nashville, I set up my cache route to ensure that I could go to a seedpod named after a caching friend of mine. I was 700 miles from home and still connected to a fellow cacher. The cache owner offered to meet me for coffee and now I have cache friends in Nashville. I think that it is an effective tool to bring a different, more social aspect to traditional caching.

 

 

 

Shhhh, quietbay about the plotbay. (Okay I suck at pig-latin.)

 

 

 

TDW was also FTF on the very first seed cache ever to be approved as part of ODS. So if ODS is a virus, TDW is the escaped monkey.

[+Snoogans]

The primary complaint I hear over and over from those who loudly despise easy urban micros is that those types of hides would be more 'acceptable' to them if only people would put more creativity into those hides.

 

One of the specific forms of creativity that is almost always suggested by these Complainers is a theme.

 

Now along comes someone who has managed to do exactly what is asked for by the Complainers: He has applied creativity, he has made the micros more interesting, and he has done so by applying a rather cool and interesting theme.

 

The fact that the regular Complainers continue to complain just as loudly in the face of this new and clever theme disproves the very integrity of the "we're only asking for a little more creativity" argument.

 

EDIT: grammar

Must you always argue? I call it arguespew. It gets really old. Can't we simply hear some honest opinions from both sides for once?

Kettle meet Pot. Here's an interesting opinion shared that get's attacked for not letting opinions be heard (I think that's the arguement TG made, not that I see where it happened).

 

 

Arguespew? I love that term! The whole quote is going on my clipboard. Thanks TG. The best part is the source. Gotta appreciate the irony.

 

But still, that word deserves to be kept around and used daily until it's right up there with, "Why does my post say Ringbone?" Honestly, I LOVE IT!!!

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[+TrailGators]

The primary complaint I hear over and over from those who loudly despise easy urban micros is that those types of hides would be more 'acceptable' to them if only people would put more creativity into those hides.

 

One of the specific forms of creativity that is almost always suggested by these Complainers is a theme.

 

Now along comes someone who has managed to do exactly what is asked for by the Complainers: He has applied creativity, he has made the micros more interesting, and he has done so by applying a rather cool and interesting theme.

 

The fact that the regular Complainers continue to complain just as loudly in the face of this new and clever theme disproves the very integrity of the "we're only asking for a little more creativity" argument.

 

EDIT: grammar

Must you always argue? I call it arguespew. It gets really old. Can't we simply hear some honest opinions from both sides for once?

Kettle meet Pot. Here's an interesting opinion shared that get's attacked for not letting opinions be heard (I think that's the arguement TG made, not that I see where it happened).

Arguespew? I love that term! The whole quote is going on my clipboard. Thanks TG. The best part is the source. Gotta appreciate the irony.

 

But still, that word deserves to be kept around and used daily until it's right up there with, "Why does my post say Ringbone?" Honestly, I LOVE IT!!!

 

Glad you like it. I'm actually tired of arguing, so now it's all arguespew to me. Edited May 21, 2007 by TrailGators

[+Renegade Knight]

.... .....and....stereotypes are ..... good things? ...

 

Yes they are. They allow us to function in the world in a broader scence with the general lack of information that we all have too work with.

 

They are only a problem when they survive contact with reality. If I hold to my steroytype about micro's and don't see the bigger picture of the ODS project even though it's a micro then that would not be a good thing.

 

The same applies to the more obviouse use of stereotypes.

[+Snoogans]

 

What's wrong with ordinary and mundane? EVERYTHING can't be extraordinary

 

Why not just punt on third down then?

 

 

 

Let's not mix metaphors. I was referring to GEOCACHING.

 

 

 

If your sense of the extraordinary is so acute that you can't appreciate the VALUE of the merely ordinary then maybe your sense of expectation and entitlement need to be racheted down a few notches.

 

 

 

And by "you" in this context, I mean the royal you. I'm not on the attack.

 

 

I suppose I should rewind the clock and start at the "kickoff" of ODS in my state.

 

Our first and only experience with ODS was a vacation cache that was placed in the middle of an insect infested thorn bush, less than 10 feet from a road way where cars average 50mph. The cache itself was a second hand ice chest with about 30 film canisters inside. Understand that this cache was placed in Ewa Beach, an area where a tourist would have to be very lost to be in. When local cachers mentioned to the visitor that this was not really the kind of cache that is encouraged in Hawaii and that the cache was missing, this was her parting words before archiving it;

 

March 11 by ashcoveredsoul (177 found)

"I have had my relative pick up the geocache. I had good intentions in placing this One Degree of Separation Cache. I placed it in Hawaii hoping tourists would take a mini cache and move to their homeland. Unfortunately all that happened was a bunch of locals complaining and whining and stealing the mini caches. I had originally wanted to place it in a nearby park, but someone not following the rules placed a mystery cache and against geocaching rules did not keep the actual cache within the required distance (1-2 miles of posted coordinates). A little traffic and a few thorns have not kept me from geocaches. All who griped are a bunch of judgemental, rule-breaking, holier than thou's. I had read blogs on geocaching sites about the attitude of hawaii geocachers. I was hoping they were wrong, but I found them to be spot on. I appreciate those that enjoyed the cache, and hope you will plant the mini caches. Good riddance Hawaii."

 

I suppose it bears mentioning that for several weeks afterward, this very lovely and engaging visitor took it upon herself to place nasty notes on several cache pages owned by the people who took exception to this hide. It was the only time we have ever had a cacher behave this way.

Granted, it could be that my acute sense of the extraordinary has overridden my ability to appreciate the value of the ODS project in my state. But with the kind of numbers that the ODS project has put up, is it reasonable to say this is an isolated incident? Your posted photos were of the extraordinary (hundreds of nice sized caches that are well camo'd and ready for distribution). Given our experience with the project, one has to wonder if that was a slight misreputation of what is -really- happening with this project.

 

To be clear, I am not attacking you personally but rather I am questioning the value of the ODS project to geocaching in a general sense.

 

 

 

WOW! I didn't take your post as an attack, but you have let the behavior of one individual color the entire project with mud for you. Would you refuse to vote for a candidate because a campaign worker for that candidate stepped on your toe?

 

 

 

The person in question is obviously reacting (like a child) rather than responding (like an adult) to their situation. ODS is not responsible for individual behavior. How could it be? I can't fathom whyyy you would try to make that connection although you did pull back from it a bit at the end of your post.

 

 

 

I submit to you that regardless of what cache this person had placed they would have behaved that way with regard to its demise. They were hell bent to place a cache in Hawaii, because they could, (relative to maintain it) and if it wasn't an ODS cache, it would have been something of their own.

 

 

 

I don't believe I ever stated ODS had inherent value to geocaching as a whole, (dunno, maybe I did) but I am 100% sure it deserves merit. It has been a positive experience for those closely involved and many more who happened upon it while out geocaching. Look at ANY 10 ODS caches and you will see a pattern of people who enjoy the concept and are excited to participate. I call it merit. Someone might weigh the positive against the negative and actually find VALUE in the project, but that is up to the individual to decide for themselves.

 

 

 

is it reasonable to say this is an isolated incident?

 

 

 

It's hard to say in the ODS context. I believe so. You are the first to speak of such a happening. It was uncalled for and nothing at all to do with ODS than simple name association.

 

 

 

NOW, in the geocaching context, we hear about over the top rude behavior all too often. I don't think there is one regular visitor here, or who regularly attends geocaching events that can't attest to that

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[+Snoogans]

How did I miss this post the first time through?

 

 

There are ONLY 712 Official ODS caches at this time. The project is 1 year old and noticeably slowing its foreword progress. What are the odds that 12,000+ micro hides will be the end result?

Kewl! Are all 712 ODS's film canisters? If so, I'd say that was roughly 712 too many carpy containers in the wild.

 

That right there tells me you haven't even taken the time to give the project a decent look before downing it. Your first post shortly after the OP was posted called it a virus.

 

From the OP:

 

All I ask is one favor. Before you flame the idea, take a look at the caches in the project (on ODS: PRIME!'s profile) and look closely at what the hiders and finders are saying about the project all over the world. I know it's allot to ask from the micro haters, but please give the project a look before you condemn it as micro-spew and cast your fears upon the next phase in the project before you even find out what it is.

 

 

The purpose of a cache is to protect its contents, right? A film canister is second only to Gladware in failing to adequately protect its contents. Large plastic coffee cans are also notoriously bad at protecting their contents in harsh environments.

 

 

I disagree with your qualifying statement. These and other recycled food containers, etcetra, when properly prepared are time tested and mother nature approved. Often, as I have stated before, it's a careless rehider who leaves the contents vulnerable to moisture.

 

 

The seed pods were all washed, sanded, and most were painted with expensive plastic primer to protect them from UV. Furthermore, the hiders were STRONGLY urged to go home and fill their containers with a 10% bleach solution and let them soak for at least 24 hours to ensure no food smell would attract critters.

 

 

This was no willy-nilly cache toss. It was thoroughly thought through. The paint alone was nearly $300 of the cost of the project.

 

 

Do you find it odd that folks might not be wetting their pants in anticipation of your next blatant ego boost?

 

 

I have a friggin' HUGE ego as you may have gathered. It was huge BEFORE I even started geocaching. It doesn't need to be boosted any further. I'm already a legend in my own mind. Jealous?

 

 

The original thought back in May of 2003 as I told it to 9Key and UsMorrows over the campfire was to make it a huge self promotion. Every single cache was to have my name in the title. Mind you, at this time I had been geocaching for all of 2 months and I had just started to visit the forums.

 

 

That idea lost its luster over the years and as I researched the various scholarly works on the Small World Theory, I realized that the only way to merit buy-in for real participation was to let the concept be the driving force and to have the community take ownership. It WORKED.

 

 

I can still take credit for starting the project (insert balloon inflation sound effect) and take comfort in the fact that it is, for lack of a better term, a waypoint in geohistory, (insert balloon inflation sound effect) but I make no claims on its signifigance to geocaching as a whole. It's just a fun thing I did, am doing, and plan to continue to do with or without your implicit help or consent.

 

 

Have fun with it or don't, but please, for the literally thousands of finders and hundreds of hiders, DON'T just dismiss it as ego.

 

 

Had you given away 12,000 non-carpy containers, I imagine your detractors would be few and far between.

 

 

Ahhhh, so this thread represents the entire project for you then? Another telling sign you didn't do our homework about this project.

 

 

The detractors are few and far between elswhere than in THIS forum.

 

 

Thank you very much for taking a different tack with your differing view though. I'm sorry I didn't see it until my second time through this page. It was refreshing.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[+Team GeoBlast]

 

What's wrong with ordinary and mundane? EVERYTHING can't be extraordinary

 

Why not just punt on third down then?

 

 

 

Let's not mix metaphors. I was referring to GEOCACHING.

 

 

 

If your sense of the extraordinary is so acute that you can't appreciate the VALUE of the merely ordinary then maybe your sense of expectation and entitlement need to be racheted down a few notches.

 

 

 

And by "you" in this context, I mean the royal you. I'm not on the attack.

 

 

I suppose I should rewind the clock and start at the "kickoff" of ODS in my state.

 

Our first and only experience with ODS was a vacation cache that was placed in the middle of an insect infested thorn bush, less than 10 feet from a road way where cars average 50mph. The cache itself was a second hand ice chest with about 30 film canisters inside. Understand that this cache was placed in Ewa Beach, an area where a tourist would have to be very lost to be in. When local cachers mentioned to the visitor that this was not really the kind of cache that is encouraged in Hawaii and that the cache was missing, this was her parting words before archiving it;

 

March 11 by ashcoveredsoul (177 found)

"I have had my relative pick up the geocache. I had good intentions in placing this One Degree of Separation Cache. I placed it in Hawaii hoping tourists would take a mini cache and move to their homeland. Unfortunately all that happened was a bunch of locals complaining and whining and stealing the mini caches. I had originally wanted to place it in a nearby park, but someone not following the rules placed a mystery cache and against geocaching rules did not keep the actual cache within the required distance (1-2 miles of posted coordinates). A little traffic and a few thorns have not kept me from geocaches. All who griped are a bunch of judgemental, rule-breaking, holier than thou's. I had read blogs on geocaching sites about the attitude of hawaii geocachers. I was hoping they were wrong, but I found them to be spot on. I appreciate those that enjoyed the cache, and hope you will plant the mini caches. Good riddance Hawaii."

 

I suppose it bears mentioning that for several weeks afterward, this very lovely and engaging visitor took it upon herself to place nasty notes on several cache pages owned by the people who took exception to this hide. It was the only time we have ever had a cacher behave this way.

Granted, it could be that my acute sense of the extraordinary has overridden my ability to appreciate the value of the ODS project in my state. But with the kind of numbers that the ODS project has put up, is it reasonable to say this is an isolated incident? Your posted photos were of the extraordinary (hundreds of nice sized caches that are well camo'd and ready for distribution). Given our experience with the project, one has to wonder if that was a slight misreputation of what is -really- happening with this project.

 

To be clear, I am not attacking you personally but rather I am questioning the value of the ODS project to geocaching in a general sense.

 

 

 

WOW! I didn't take your post as an attack, but you have let the behavior of one individual color the entire project with mud for you. Would you refuse to vote for a candidate because a campaign worker for that candidate stepped on your toe?

 

 

 

The person in question is obviously reacting (like a child) rather than responding (like an adult) to their situation. ODS is not responsible for individual behavior. How could it be? I can't fathom whyyy you would try to make that connection although you did pull back from it a bit at the end of your post.

 

 

 

I submit to you that regardless of what cache this person had placed they would have behaved that way with regard to its demise. They were hell bent to place a cache in Hawaii, because they could, (relative to maintain it) and if it wasn't an ODS cache, it would have been something of their own.

 

 

 

I don't believe I ever stated ODS had inherent value to geocaching as a whole, (dunno, maybe I did) but I am 100% sure it deserves merit. It has been a positive experience for those closely involved and many more who happened upon it while out geocaching. Look at ANY 10 ODS caches and you will see a pattern of people who enjoy the concept and are excited to participate. I call it merit. Someone might weigh the positive against the negative and actually find VALUE in the project, but that is up to the individual to decide for themselves.

 

 

 

is it reasonable to say this is an isolated incident?

 

 

 

It's hard to say in the ODS context. I believe so. You are the first to speak of such a happening. It was uncalled for and nothing at all to do with ODS than simple name association.

 

 

 

NOW, in the geocaching context, we hear about over the top rude behavior all too often. I don't think there is one regular visitor here, or who regularly attends geocaching events that can't attest to that

 

We had a bad, no horrible, experience with the only ODS exposure in Hawaii. I can take that for what it is worth but coupled with the "every cache doesn't have to be extraordinary" statement a few posts back; 1 + 1 = a negative number by my math. We have about 500 caches on our island and space is extremely limited. Any attempt by a local to spread 30 film canisters out here would get voted off the island.

 

Now, that I've said my peace, may I pay you a complement? Thanks for keeping this discussion above the belt. You believe that your project has been an overall good thing for geocaching. While I have trouble agreeing with you, it's obvious you believe otherwise and I commend you for defending this project in a positive and constructive way.

[vtmtnman]

 

We have about 500 caches on our island and space is extremely limited. Any attempt by a local to spread 30 film canisters out here would get voted off the island.

 

This is a good point.I looked at the islands with a guy who was from there on google earth to see what caches where there.It seemed the caches were nicely spread out.I think HI should probably hold an exception to the rule.Maybe 4-6?2-3.Who knows.Just opinion.

[+Snoogans]

We had a bad, no horrible, experience with the only ODS exposure in Hawaii. I can take that for what it is worth but coupled with the "every cache doesn't have to be extraordinary" statement a few posts back; 1 + 1 = a negative number by my math. We have about 500 caches on our island and space is extremely limited. Any attempt by a local to spread 30 film canisters out here would get voted off the island.

 

Now, that I've said my peace, may I pay you a complement? Thanks for keeping this discussion above the belt. You believe that your project has been an overall good thing for geocaching. While I have trouble agreeing with you, it's obvious you believe otherwise and I commend you for defending this project in a positive and constructive way.

 

 

Thanks for the compliment. I nearly always try to be reasonable and constructive, which is more than I can say for some folks that find fault with the perceived direction geocaching is perceived to be taking, but I can get down and dirty when overtly provoked, or you know, if I'm in a mood.

 

 

You are still letting guilt by association color your view of ODS which to me is a negative right back at ya. And not only that, the fact that you hold my personal and unassociated aesthetic view to appreciate the ordinary against the merit of the project is an astonishing concept I can hardly fathom.

 

 

A daisy may just be an ordinary flower, but they often smell a whole lot better than some that would be considered extraordinary. You may think caches on your island need to be extraordinary and just the fact that Hawaii is such a beautiful and remote location even the most ordinary of caches can BE extraordinary, but leave your island and you will find a different reality. There's nothing at all wrong with the ordinary. It's precisely that attitude that causes depression in many people that don't have the luxury to live in paradise, or be the perfect model of beauty and fitness. Face it. 97 percent of just about everything is ordinary. That's whyyy the term extraordinary exists. Try breathing only extraordinary air.

 

 

I think YOU in particular will be pleased by the direction the second phase will take, that is, if you don't also share the dissent over the perceived artificial nature of the connections being made to illustrate the success of the project. I can't satisfy everyone, nor can I show them how to have FUN.

 

 

I take great comfort in the fact.... yes FACT.... that lot's of people (thousands) ARE having fun with this project. I'm truly saddened you didn't, but again, HOW can the ODS project be held accountable for individual behavior?

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[CoyoteRed]

Am I not seeing the rebuttal to my assertion the ODS project is inherently flawed in that it can't provide the one degree of separation it purports to provide?

[+briansnat]

The detractors are few and far between elswhere than in THIS forum.

 

The forums are just a microcosm of the larger community. There are many detractors outside this forum.

 

Without exception, the geocachers whom I spoke with that knew about this were less than enthusiastic (I'm being nice).

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

The detractors are few and far between elswhere than in THIS forum.

 

The forums are just a microcosm of the larger community. There are many detractors outside this forum.

 

Without exception, the geocachers whom I spoke with that knew about this were less than enthusiastic (I'm being nice).

Much the same here when I have mentioned the project locally; the response seems to have been about 80% against and 20% neutral or somewhat in favor of the idea.

 

And, much as an earlier poster has noted, I too wish to compliment Snoogans for keeping the discussion -- for his part at least, sane and coherent, and rather graceful and civil -- which is more than I can say for some other folks on this thread who fall on both sides of the issue.

[+KBI]

I can still take credit for starting the project (insert balloon inflation sound effect) and take comfort in the fact that it is, for lack of a better term, a waypoint in geohistory, but I make no claims on its significance to geocaching as a whole. It's just a fun thing I did, am doing, and plan to continue to do with or without your implicit help or consent.

 

Have fun with it or don't ...

I would say that, right there, is all the justification you need.

 

I would say that this portion of your clearly stated reasoning is all ANY geocache hide EVER needs to justify its existence. No need to go any further. No need to say anything more.

 

 

When you create something new:

 

There will always be someone out there who thinks your cache idea is fun. You will have entertained them, and in doing so you will have improved the game and enhanced geohistory.

 

There will always be someone out there who thinks your cache idea is lame, no matter what you do or how you do it. Those folks are best ignored. If they subsequently fail to ignore your cache and still don't like it, that's their problem.

[+ZSandmann]

I've still got a spore from ODS: LAW and Disorder in New Orleans. Sadly, that cache got cleared by groundscrew, but not before most of the spores were collected. I have had it for a year without placing it, along with two Hurricaches because I have been looking for an ideal place to put them. Whern I do they will go out. I like the project's core ideal, and fully support Snoogans. Friend request sent, can't wait to see what you cooked up for phase 2.

[+Snoogans]

The detractors are few and far between elswhere than in THIS forum.

 

The forums are just a microcosm of the larger community. There are many detractors outside this forum.

 

Without exception, the geocachers whom I spoke with that knew about this were less than enthusiastic (I'm being nice).

Much the same here when I have mentioned the project locally; the response seems to have been about 80% against and 20% neutral or somewhat in favor of the idea.

 

And, much as an earlier poster has noted, I too wish to compliment Snoogans for keeping the discussion -- for his part at least, sane and coherent, and rather graceful and civil -- which is more than I can say for some other folks on this thread who fall on both sides of the issue.

 

 

Yes, well birds of a feather.... How many were informed about the project by you personally?

 

 

Brian basically says 100% against. No wonder there are only 3 ODS caches in New Jersey.

 

 

Vinney says 80%-20% which at least acknowledges that some folks find merit in the concept.

 

 

Here in the Armpit of the Universe, I would say it's maybe 97% in favor to 3% against. I would expect that. It started here and the seed pods were mostly named for, and prepared by local cachers. A few were named for high profile cachers around Texas and a small number of caches were named for my geocaching friends around the world.

 

 

Of the 3% that would honestly say they disliked the idea, their reasoning was ALWAYS that the project represented micro proliferation to them. Basically personal aesthitcs and nothing more. NO ONE expressed disdain for the concept that the project is based on. Most of those against only cared that it was the mico issue that bothered them and several commented that the concept was kinda cool.

 

 

I would flip Vinny's figure to 20%-80% everywhere else I have been outside of Houston. I passed out a half dozen, or so, seed pods at an RCGDS event, in Sacramento, just a month after GW4. I appreciated the differing views from Hemlock and Krypton, who are both reviewers. (Regardless, it didn't stop other folks from taking the pods.) Their concern with the project was more organized. They were concerned with basically reviewer issues and I tried hard to address those on the ODS forum which hardly anyone uses. Those reviewer issues will be the first things addressed in phase 2 of ODS.

 

 

At GW4, I asked Nate Irish face to face what the folks in his office thought about the project. He was very diplomatic. He said that "when you boil it down, the project is basically just community building and that is a good thing." I got the feeling there was a whole bunch he wasn't saying and I appreciated his diplomatic response. I have never been contacted by Groundspeak for any concerns regarding the project. To me that's implied consent. But then, I never asked permission in the first place.

 

 

What are the real figures? They will always be slanted in favor of whichever side is presenting them.

 

 

Look at any 10 ODS cache pages and judge for yourself. If the dissent was as widespread as the other side of the fence would have you believe, then the majority of the logs on the caches should be negative. According to Brian in New Jersey, (3 links) they should ALL be negative. Shouldn't they?

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[+Team GeoBlast]

HOW can the ODS project be held accountable for individual behavior? unsure.gif

 

I guess this is my point in a nutshell, you can't.

[+Snoogans]

ODS: PRIME!'s friends list just topped 61 since this thread started. Obviously there are folks interested in having the project trackable on their profiles, and that wish to participate in phase 2, even if they don't wish to post on this thread.

[+MuddyPawPrints]

I just hold my head when I read complaints about micros. Does everyone forget that Geocaching has an ability to see what the cache type is, the size of the box and they have a CHOICE about what to look for?

 

The reason this bothers me is that it seems most feel that all caches should be hidden in the woods in big boxes under brush. Let me explain something....

 

Not every geocacher is able to go into the woods or natural setting. There is not one uniform body type that geocaches. There are individuals out here in wheelchairs, using walkers, on canes, with mobility issues, sight issues, etc. I myself have a disabling disease that does not allow me to go for higher terrain finds. To some of us, a lamppost find or micro in the park is like opening up that ammo box after a five mile hike.

 

I had my father with me after one of his Dr's appt. He has a lot of mobility issues due to numerous strokes and diabetes. He is also legally blind and has problems walking on uneven terrain. I have been talking non stop about geocaching around him and he wanted to see one. I took him to a lamp post cache and just pointed. He couldn't believe it was there. The smile on his face was priceless. This is something that he and my mom could do and he wouldn't even have to leave the car yet he could get out of the house!

 

Please, please, please.... as long as these caches are getting visitors... what is the harm? Keep hiding the caches you want and let the "others" have caches they can do too!

 

Thank you for listening....

[+SeventhSon]

I hope you included that story in your log

[+DocDiTTo]

ODS: PRIME!'s friends list just topped 61 since this thread started. Obviously there are folks interested in having the project trackable on their profiles, and that wish to participate in phase 2, even if they don't wish to post on this thread.

 

Let's see, 39266 cacher accounts and 61 are signed up... nah.. I won't bother with the math. We all know any such an attempt at statistics is inherently flawed anyway.

 

I do have a question though... you said earlier in this thread that the container wasn't the important thing, and if people wanted to replace their containers with a better one that would be fine. So that would make the log sheet the important thing I guess, right? What happens when the log sheet needs replaced? How does the cache then relate back to whoeever's name was on it. Actually, how did it ever?

 

Reminds me of the story of a guy who had a hammer that was once owned by Abe Lincoln:

 

"Yep, that's Abe's hammer alright. Well, I had to replace the head once and the handle twice, but that's definitely Abe Lincoln's hammer"

 

I think others have asked here how the whole association thing works, and I'm not sure I get it either.

[+sbell111]

As far as I can tell, when some people decide that something in the geocaching universe doesn't fit neatly with their vision of the game, they try to tear it apart. It's as if they believe that any disagreement makes their position irrelevent.

[+Snoogans]

As far as I can tell, when some people decide that something in the geocaching universe doesn't fit neatly with their vision of the game, they try to tear it apart. It's as if they believe that any disagreement makes their position irrelevent.

 

 

You da MAN briansnat ummm, I mean SB111!

[vtmtnman]

As far as I can tell, when some people decide that something in the geocaching universe doesn't fit neatly with their vision of the game, they try to tear it apart. It's as if they believe that any disagreement makes their position irrelevent.

 

 

You da MAN briansnat ummm, I mean SB111!

[+briansnat]

As far as I can tell, when some people decide that something in the geocaching universe doesn't fit neatly with their vision of the game, they try to tear it apart. It's as if they believe that any disagreement makes their position irrelevent.

 

Mr Teapot I presume?

 

Look at any 10 ODS cache pages and judge for yourself. If the dissent was as widespread as the other side of the fence would have you believe, then the majority of the logs on the caches should be negative. According to Brian in New Jersey, (3 links) they should ALL be negative. Shouldn't they?

 

I said everyone I spoke with (could have been one person for all you know ). Seriously it was a lot more than one, but most of us are members of the He Man Micro Haters Club.

 

I don't deny that some of the spawn could be turned into outstanding caches, but the people who hid those would probably have hidden that cache anyway, ODS or not.

 

I feel that seed caches are usually a bad idea and the idea of hundreds of them makes a bad idea even worse.

[+JoGPS]

Have greatly enjoyed the (ODS) The One Degree of Separation Project, it took someone with imagination to come up with the idea and to implement.

 

When ever I read that the sport is changing from where it should be, an reminded of Virtuals, Locationless, and Scavenger Hunt type caches all fun when we started playing the game but are no more

 

Hope fresh ideas keep coming, keep up da Tooooooooo Cool project

 

Joe

[+briansnat]

ODS: PRIME!'s friends list just topped 61 since this thread started. Obviously there are folks interested in having the project trackable on their profiles, and that wish to participate in phase 2, even if they don't wish to post on this thread.

 

What's the enemies list look like?

[Clan Riffster]

That right there tells me you haven't even taken the time to give the project a decent look before downing it. Your first post shortly after the OP was posted called it a virus.

Actually, I did review it rather thoroughly. There was an ODiouS cache along the route I drove during my recent trip to Kentucky. I didn't hunt for it, but that's only because I didn't happen to stop there. My issue with this project has nothing to do with your shameless self promotion. Heck, I enjoy a good ego boost from time to time. That's why I give away so many camo'ed ammo cans like this one:

My one and only objection to the whole project was your chosen containers. While things may be different in The Armpit Of America, here in Florida, film canisters and coffee cans make horrible containers. To date, I have not found a single coffee can that had a completely dry interior, and roughly 80% of the film canisters I've found also contained some degree of moisture. Both use a non-binding snap on lid that does nothing to prevent moisture seepage. If your purpose in creating a cache is to protect its contents, (as opposed to just dropping a logbook in the bushes), then coffe cans, film canisters and Gladware fail miserably.

 

This is not a new revalation to geocaching, and it begs the question; "Why did Snoogans deliberately use carpy containers for this project?"

Was it because he couldn't finance 21,000 quality containers? Was it because he wanted to thumb his nose at the rest of the community by spewing knowingly inferior containers across the continent? Was it because he was traumatized by a film canister as a child? The world may never know the real truth.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Clan Riffster

[+Maingray]

I like the idea, for some reason it gives me a warm glow. Round here the ODS caches have been hidden normally, and some incorporated into Mystery Caches and Multis.

 

It is fun to see how they have spread out from one geographical location and spread out, like some Mega Giant Pseudopod.

[+Snoogans]

ODS: PRIME!'s friends list just topped 61 since this thread started. Obviously there are folks interested in having the project trackable on their profiles, and that wish to participate in phase 2, even if they don't wish to post on this thread.

 

Let's see, 39266 cacher accounts and 61 are signed up... nah.. I won't bother with the math. We all know any such an attempt at statistics is inherently flawed anyway.

 

I do have a question though... you said earlier in this thread that the container wasn't the important thing,

 

 

Hmmmm, let's look at it a different way. Shall we? 28 people have posted to this thread and quite a few of those same people are on the friends list.

 

 

I love how you assume (must... not.... use a different color font to point out the saying) that 39,266 - 61 cachers are on your side of the fence. Why didn't you go for the full 1 million plus accounts minus 61 to illustrate your point instead of just including those registered to the forums??? If you're going claim numbers, you should really go big.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[+Snoogans]

ODS: PRIME!'s friends list just topped 61 since this thread started. Obviously there are folks interested in having the project trackable on their profiles, and that wish to participate in phase 2, even if they don't wish to post on this thread.

 

What's the enemies list look like?

 

 

Why don't you be constructive and start one? Everyone that hates ODS and wants to join the enemies list please email Briansnat.

 

 

I'd love to see it. Negativity will only help this project improve.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Snoogans

[Clan Riffster]

It is fun to see how they have spread out from one geographical location and spread out, like some Mega Giant Pseudopod.

Or virus.

[+DocDiTTo]

 

Let's see, 39266 cacher accounts and 61 are signed up... nah.. I won't bother with the math. We all know any such an attempt at statistics is inherently flawed anyway.

 

I do have a question though... you said earlier in this thread that the container wasn't the important thing,

 

 

Hmmmm, let's look at it a different way. Shall we? 28 people have posted to this thread and quite a few of those same people are on the friends list.

 

Obviously my attempt at a little lighthearted jab was taken too seriously. Considering our earlier debate/discussion, I don't blame you for reading a little more into my post than was intended. My real question was stated in the latter part of the post. That's more intriguing to me than any statistical fiction.

[+Snoogans]

Have greatly enjoyed the (ODS) The One Degree of Separation Project, it took someone with imagination to come up with the idea and to implement.

 

When ever I read that the sport is changing from where it should be, an reminded of Virtuals, Locationless, and Scavenger Hunt type caches all fun when we started playing the game but are no more

 

Hope fresh ideas keep coming, keep up da Tooooooooo Cool project

 

Joe

 

 

 

Thank you for your support Joe. It's a great feeling to have the support of one of the most positive and respected members of the entire geocaching continuum.

[+sbell111]

... If your purpose in creating a cache is to protect its contents, (as opposed to just dropping a logbook in the bushes), then coffe cans, film canisters and Gladware fail miserably.

 

This is not a new revalation to geocaching, and it begs the question; "Why did Snoogans deliberately use carpy containers for this project?"...

I have some thoughts related to this.

 

First, some film cans are quite good at keeping moisture out.

 

Second, whether a container is 'good' or not largely depends on the location and method in which it is hidden. There are plenty of dry coffee cans and film canisters in the geocaching universe.

 

Third, even an ammo box can become waterlogged if finders allow it to happen.

 

Fourth, the only thing that these containers need to protect is the log. The other items in these caches are cache containers. It's OK that these get damp. Logs can be adequately protected through the use of ziplocs.

Edited May 21, 2007 by sbell111