Multi Point Mysteries and the Posted Coordinates

[+Red90]

The topic came up locally, so I thought I would see if there is an official stance.

 

Let's say you want to make up a cache. The cache is a "Mystery". The posted coordinates are bogus and some sort of puzzle is required to locate the first coordinates. The cache has several waypoints that must be progressed through before getting to the final location.

 

Do the posted coordinates need to be with 1-2 miles of the first waypoint or of the final waypoint?

[+Markwell]

Link to guidelines

Mystery or Puzzle Caches

The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates. The information needed to solve the puzzle must be available to the general caching community and should be solvable from the information provided on the cache listing. For example, a puzzle that requires research on public websites in order to determine the coordinates may be acceptable, while a puzzle that requires sending an e-mail to the cache owner with the solution in order to obtain the coordinates may not be. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location. This allows the cache to show up on the proper vicinity searches and to keep the mileage of Travel Bugs that find their way into the cache reasonably correct.[/color]

 

I would think that would mean the final location. But I'd also check with the local reviewer.

[+StarBrand]

I've always understood that to mean the final but I suppose there is room for interpretation.

[+Red90]

Thanks, I am well aware of the guidelines. But that is written assuming that there are bogus coordinates and a cache ONLY.

 

If it were just a multi-cache, the posted coordinates (first waypoint) could be as far as I want from the final. My question is if this bacame a mytery (because the posted coordinates were fake), do the posted coordinates need to be close to the first or final waypoints. Obviously, it makes sense to be close to the first as it makes it easier for the cacher to know he is in the correct localle to start doing the cache, but the guidelines wouldn't technically allow it.

 

Let me be clear that this is all hypothetical. I am not preparing a cache. I am not wanting my local approver's opinion. I am starting this thread so that we can understand the official stance and help others in the future.

[Dinoprophet]

That guideline does read as the final, but that doesn't make much sense. It sounds like it wasn't written with long multis in mind. It seems to me the posted coordinates should be close to the starting point.

 

Edit: was writing as the OP was posting the same thing

Edited January 31, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+ePeterso2]

There are two mystery/puzzle caches near me that fall into this category. The posted coordinates are 20 and 80 miles from their final caches, respectively. I don't know how they got past the reviewer.

 

I don't know why they were reported that way to begin with, but I have a suspicion - their finals pretty far out into the "wilderness", and the posted coordinates are in populated suburban areas to draw attention to them. That technique was explicitly used in a nearby 2-stage multi where the final stage is 50 miles away.

[+Kit Fox]

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location.

 

True cache location means where the actual cache is, not where the first waypoint is.

[The Vargman]

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location.

 

True cache location means where the actual cache is, not where the first waypoint is.

 

I'm with Kit Fox on this one. I finished my first "?" cache this weekend. It required a total of 7 waypoints to retrieve the 8th and final loc. But the description is clear about the fact that 6 of the points are quite some distance from the final stage . My thought would be if you have a different starting point, add a waypoint to your description but put the posted coords for the "?" cache should be within 1-2 miles of the final location.

Edited January 31, 2007 by The Vargman

[+flask]

i have a large multi where the given coordinates are near the first stage, which is near the geographical center of the whole thing. many of the points are far away, but the description tells yout the thing is big.

 

the whole thing (i think) comes down to correct labeling.

[+Arndtwe]

there are always exceptions to this game, sometimes you just need to ask. contact your reviewer, explain the exactly what you want. usually they will say ok.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Arndtwe

[Dinoprophet]

Unless a good reason otherwise can be provided, the posted coordinates should be no more than 1-2 miles away from the true cache location.

 

True cache location means where the actual cache is, not where the first waypoint is.

It could be read that way (though presumably there is a cache at the first waypoint, as is usual for a multi). But I also think that the starting point being miles from the final point might be "a good reason otherwise".

Edited February 1, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+Walts Hunting]

For a Mystery the posted coordinates can be anywhere. Most of the guys and gals around here use the middle of Lake Folsom so there is no expectation to actually find a cache.

[+ePeterso2]

It could be read that way (though presumably there is a cache at the first waypoint, as is usual for a multi). But I also think that the starting point being miles from the final point might be "a good reason otherwise".

I think the situation of the posted point being more than 2 miles from the final point is an indicator of poor cache design. In mystery/puzzle caches, there should never be anything findable at the posted coords other than perhaps a parking space.

[Dinoprophet]

It could be read that way (though presumably there is a cache at the first waypoint, as is usual for a multi). But I also think that the starting point being miles from the final point might be "a good reason otherwise".

I think the situation of the posted point being more than 2 miles from the final point is an indicator of poor cache design. In mystery/puzzle caches, there should never be anything findable at the posted coords other than perhaps a parking space.

That's not true at all. I have had two mystery caches, both with something to find at the posted coordinates.

 

I Hid It On Principle: Under the original setup, the posted coordinates are for a plaque from which you get the numbers for the actual cache. In my case, the cache is not 2 miles away, but it easily could be under the same circumstances (you may argue that it's not a mystery cache -- my approver is the one who told me to make it so. He said if there's not a container at the coordinates, then it's a mystery cache).

 

N42...Something Something Something: The coordinates lead to the first of several micro containers, each with a picture showing a path to the next stage. The "mystery" designation is because it is not a normal multi. Again, the final was a half-mile away or so, but it could easily be extended beyond that. The coordinates would have to be at the starting point.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+Harry Dolphin]

There's a new mystery cache in my neighborhood with six miles between the first and final (second) stages. Detailed instructions on how to get between the two, which should be a tremendous experience! The gudelines do allow for exeptions, and this is a good example of why.

[+ePeterso2]

That's not true at all. I have had two mystery caches, both with something to find at the posted coordinates.

I would argue that those aren't mysteries, they're multis, each with a virtual first stage.

 

To me, a mystery means that you have to solve some sort of problem to locate the first (and possibly final) point. For a mystery/puzzle cache, you should be able to set the posted coordinates anywhere within a two-mile radius of the final container location without breaking the puzzle. Setting the posted coords to the nearest parking area is a convenience, but you could also create an additional parking waypoint.

 

I Hid It On Principle: Under the original setup, the posted coordinates are for a plaque from which you get the numbers for the actual cache.

That really sounds like the definition of a multi/offset. I hid a similar one recently called Frank and Ivy, and it was listed as a multi.

 

N42...Something Something Something: The coordinates lead to the first of several micro containers, each with a picture showing a path to the next stage. The "mystery" designation is because it is not a normal multi. Again, the final was a half-mile away or so, but it could easily be extended beyond that. The coordinates would have to be at the starting point.

Emphasis mine - again, that would seem to fit the definition of a multi.

 

(you may argue that it's not a mystery cache -- my approver is the one who told me to make it so. He said if there's not a container at the coordinates, then it's a mystery cache).

Wow, that's exactly the opposite of the sense I get from my local reviewer. Sounds like another case of insufficiently clear guidelines.

 

( Insert obligatory "My reviewer can beat up your reviewer" argument here )

 

Maybe my comment of "poor cache design" came across to strongly. Those all sound like really good caches ... I guess it's just a matter of taxonomy.

 

-eP

Edited February 1, 2007 by ePeterso2

[+txoilgas]

I think one of the most interesting Mystery caches I have seen is the Navy Army Airforce GCJZ5W. It is played like the game Battleship and has 25 "Waypoints". These are all located in one county that is about 30 miles square. If you drove to all of the points you will end up with well over 100 miles driven. The neat part is that there is no official starting point. I have started it a couple of times, get distracted, and misplaced my answers and had to start over.

 

[+Markwell]

Thanks, I am well aware of the guidelines.

 

I could tell you were from your post. There are others that are not. Saved everyone the time of having to go out and look them up before they tried to answer your question, didn't it?

 

Let me be clear that this is all hypothetical. I am not preparing a cache. I am not wanting my local approver's opinion. I am starting this thread so that we can understand the official stance and help others in the future.

 

And my point was that you don't have to be submitting a cache to ask something of your reviewer. Ultimately these are guidelines, and as guidelines they are open to the interpretation of your local reviewer. That's why I said that I would contact my local reviewer. They would be the ones to make the decision anyway so why not involve them in getting your answer.

[Dinoprophet]

To me, a mystery means that you have to solve some sort of problem to locate the first (and possibly final) point. For a mystery/puzzle cache, you should be able to set the posted coordinates anywhere within a two-mile radius of the final container location without breaking the puzzle. Setting the posted coords to the nearest parking area is a convenience, but you could also create an additional parking waypoint.

It does seem to me that my plaque one should be an offset, which isn't actually a type but a variation on a multi. That's what I submitted it as, but as I said, my approver changed it.

 

But because my other one required solving a puzzle of a sort, I'd still call it a puzzle/mystery. As I see it, if it requires more than putting given coordinates into your GPS and going there, it gets the catch-all "Mystery" (with the exception of the plaque/counting/math offsets).

 

Just calling such caches "multis" means people who don't like puzzles are forced to sort out which multis involve puzzles and which don't. Suppose you had a multi where you had to solve a Sudoku on the cache page to find the first stage. Clearly a puzzle cache. Now suppose instead, the Sudoku is in the first stage and must be solved to find the final (someone suggested this in the Sudoku thread as a means of preventing online solvers). Another example is one I found a long time ago that had a code key on the cache page and coordinates to a regular multi, but you had to solve a code from the first two stages to find the last stage. I imagine the puzzle-hater is going to be pretty irritated if those are listed as multis.

 

But let's assume all those are exceptions anyway. I still don't get why the posted coordinates would be close to the final rather than the start. If I'm looking up caches to find, I want to know roughly where I'll be starting. Where I'll be finishing is nice too, but far less important in planning my day.

[+briansnat]

It could be read that way (though presumably there is a cache at the first waypoint, as is usual for a multi). But I also think that the starting point being miles from the final point might be "a good reason otherwise".

I think the situation of the posted point being more than 2 miles from the final point is an indicator of poor cache design. In mystery/puzzle caches, there should never be anything findable at the posted coords other than perhaps a parking space.

That's not true at all. I have had two mystery caches, both with something to find at the posted coordinates.

 

I Hid It On Principle: Under the original setup, the posted coordinates are for a plaque from which you get the numbers for the actual cache. In my case, the cache is not 2 miles away, but it easily could be under the same circumstances (you may argue that it's not a mystery cache -- my approver is the one who told me to make it so. He said if there's not a container at the coordinates, then it's a mystery cache).

 

N42...Something Something Something: The coordinates lead to the first of several micro containers, each with a picture showing a path to the next stage. The "mystery" designation is because it is not a normal multi. Again, the final was a half-mile away or so, but it could easily be extended beyond that. The coordinates would have to be at the starting point.

 

The first one would be an offset cache so should be listed as a multi. The second I guess could legitimately be listed as either a mystery or a multi. There is a grey area where the two can overlap.

Edited February 1, 2007 by briansnat

[+ePeterso2]

Just calling such caches "multis" means people who don't like puzzles are forced to sort out which multis involve puzzles and which don't.

I could believe that. I don't know this for a fact, but I strongly suspect that many of the active cachers around here treat multis and mysteries as one and the same. I've noticed that someone will hit all of the traditionals in a given area but never touch the multis nor puzzles. I don't know if those are people who just like to cache based upon waypoints alone or if they just have an aversion to more complex hides.

 

But let's assume all those are exceptions anyway. I still don't get why the posted coordinates would be close to the final rather than the start. If I'm looking up caches to find, I want to know roughly where I'll be starting. Where I'll be finishing is nice too, but far less important in planning my day.

But isn't the purpose of a puzzle to discover where your starting point is before you hit the streets?

 

-eP

Edited February 1, 2007 by ePeterso2

[Keystone]

If someone submitted a puzzle cache with multiple stages, I would work with them to choose bogus posted coordinates that made sense to both of us, and which honored the spirit underlying the "two mile" limitation contained in the guidelines.

 

The purposes served are (1) to be sure the cache shows up on the appropriate search page results, and (2) to be sure that the mileage for trackables in the puzzle cache is reasonably accurate.

 

In the case of a normal single-stage puzzle, both purposes are served by having the bogus coords in the middle of a river or lake that's less than two miles from the solution coordinates.

 

In a multi-stage puzzle, I could go either way. Pretend there was no puzzle, and it was a 50 mile long multicache. The posted coords would be for the first stage. Making the bogus puzzle coords be within 2 miles of the first stage coordinates would mimic how a multicache would be listed. This would aid the goal of having the cache show up on the appropriate search results (i.e., where a geocacher would *start* their search). But the mileage for trackables would be off by 50 miles. This is true, though, for all long multicaches. On balance, I would come out in favor of being 2 miles or less from the first set of relevant coordinates. But I could be persuaded otherwise, since each cache is unique.

 

The foregoing is my individual opinion as one of dozens of cache reviewers. There is no "official position" on this matter, to my knowledge. This is the first time I can recall that this issue has ever been discussed. That is a rare thing!

[Dinoprophet]

I was about to say that the travel bug mileage was a good reason for it to be at the end. Then Keystone had to go and point out that that's already wrong for long multis anyway. D'oh!

 

But isn't the purpose of a puzzle to discover where your starting point is before you hit the streets?

Okay, you got me there.

 

I'm going to go see if my reviewer will change my cache to a traditional (the plaque is no longer there, so it's not even debatable anymore).

Edited February 1, 2007 by Dinoprophet

[+ePeterso2]

As I read back over this thread, I wonder if a "Requires Puzzle Solving" attribute wouldn't alleviate some of the confusion. That way, multis with and without puzzles could be differentiated.

 

A "Puzzle" attribute would also help classify things like this: End of the Road # 28. I asked the reviewer how to classify it before it was published, and we came to the consensus of Traditional. But I can see how it would be irritating/confusing for people who were on a waypoints-only numbers run.

[+Quiggle]

I'm going to go see if my reviewer will change my cache to a traditional (the plaque is no longer there, so it's not even debatable anymore).

In that case it is a new cache. You shouldn't change an existing cache's type to satisfy the revised circumstances. Why rob those that found the original cache of their stat/icon? If they found a multi (or puzzle/mystery), don't take that away from them by changing the icon.

 

Archive the cache and submit it as a new one without the puzzle (or offset) part of it. Call it "<cachename> Part II" or something similar.

 

edit: The cache in question has been around since 2005, definitely archive and submit a new one. Those who found it while it was a ? should be able to keep that stat in their profile.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Quiggle