60csx Elevation

[TracknQ]

Thanks dumketu and 8mmag!

 

I guess we'll have to wait for a fix of the defective altimeter. Will new hardware have to be designed and manufactured, or was the defect just due to bad quality control? I hope that Garmin will give details about what to expect and when.

 

Good spot, Brian. I looked at my 4/29/6 track's properties again. Time went backwards when my elevation jumped to 98,422 feet. I wonder if that suggests an electrical fault (???). It's all Greek to me....

 

Here's a cropped screen shot of my track log showing the backwards time:

 

 

TracknQ

[8mmag]

I guess we'll have to wait for a fix of the defective altimeter. Will new hardware have to be designed and manufactured, or was the defect just due to bad quality control? I hope that Garmin will give details about what to expect and when.

 

 

I asked whether it was a quality issue with the sensor, and if any other associated hardware was involved. We'll see.

[TracknQ]

I wonder whether the battery type or power settings have anything to do with the altimeter problem.

 

I'm using PowerEX 2500 mAh NiMH rechargeable batteries.

 

In System Setup, I've set "Battery Type" to "NiMH" and "GPS" to "Normal" (not "Battery Saver").

 

In Altimeter Setup, "Auto Calibration" is now set to "Off," per dumketu's suggestion.

 

TracknQ

[8mmag]

I wonder whether the battery type or power settings have anything to do with the altimeter problem.

 

I'm using PowerEX 2500 mAh NiMH rechargeable batteries.

 

In System Setup, I've set "Battery Type" to "NiMH" and "GPS" to "Normal" (not "Battery Saver").

 

In Altimeter Setup, "Auto Calibration" is now set to "Off," per dumketu's suggestion.

 

TracknQ

 

I'm using alkalines and 'Normal', not 'Battery Saver' mode...I'd leave auto-calibration on and see if you get the problem. If Garmin says it's a hardware issue, you'll want to know if your unit is having the problem so you can get it fixed. Just my 2 cents...

 

As long as this is being defined by Garmin as a hardware problem, there's no point in trying to figure out if various settings affect it. I would suggest trying to make it happen on your unit to see if you need to get your unit fixed.

 

BTW, when I asked about waiting to send the unit in 'in case' the WAAS & SV re-acquisition issues turned out to be hardware related as well, Garmin's response was that they *ARE NOT* hardware related and will be addressed with firmware. Now the question is when...

[TracknQ]

I went for a 6-mile walk this afternoon. I reset the Trip Computer and Max. Elev. data and turned tracking on at the start of my walk. I also disabled Auto Calibration, per dumketu's suggestion.

 

I'm happy to report that I got no elevation anomalies with Auto Calibration turned off. Also, only 5% of my track log storage space was depleted.

 

Thanks, Brian!

 

TracknQ

[+dumketu]

If this is a hardware problem then I am thinking Garmin is going to need to recall the lot of the 60csx and possibly the 76csx since they use the same component. Also, this problem is just obscure enough that it might not be noticed by most GPS users. I do a lot of linking photos to my GPS tracks, so I am a little more aware of what my gps track is doing. I have to wonder how often this is really happening and if Garmin is just offering to replace the units because they have not yet discovered the full scope of the problem. Clearly the problem is related to the altimeter, but electronic pressure sensors have been around a while and so I therefore still have some doubt.

 

I was thinking about the time jump-back issue and I am of the opinion that it would be very difficult for the altimeter to affect that. Which leads us again to either firmware or the sirf chips since time is being updated/corrected from the satellites. I suppose anything is possible, but I am not ready to send my unit back just to get another one with the same problem. If they announce a recall and offer to replace the pressure sensors of everyones GPS, then I'll probably bite.

 

Brian

Edited May 2, 2006 by dumketu

[nathantw]

A little off topic, but how did you get the speed and altitude to show on your chart? Those two are missing on mine. I don't get the Ave. Speed either.

 

 

 

TracknQ

[nathantw]

If this is a hardware problem then I am thinking Garmin is going to need to recall the lot of the 60csx and possibly the 76csx since they use the same component. Also, this problem is just obscure enough that it

 

Brian

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if Garmin brought out a 61CSx/77CSx instead and didn't offer any type of rebate or recall?

[TracknQ]

A little off topic, but how did you get the speed and altitude to show on your chart? Those two are missing on mine. I don't get the Ave. Speed either.

 

Nathantw,

 

Try dragging a side of the "Track Properties" window to make it bigger horizontally. Then, drag the column headings apart. You should be able to see columns for "Index," "Time," "Altitude," "Leg Length," "Leg Time," "Leg Speed," "Leg Course," and "Position."

 

When I save a track in my 60CSx and then download the track to MapSource, I see two track logs under the "Tracks" User Data Tab on the left side of the screen. If I highlight and view the properties of the "ACTIVE LOG," I see readings for "Elapsed Time" and "Avg. Speed." The track that I saved doesn't show these readings.

 

TracknQ

[TracknQ]

I have good news. Regarding Post #46, a Tech Support rep. just told me that whoever sent the email to 8mmag was misinformed. As of today, Garmin has not identified a hardware issue.

 

TracknQ

[nathantw]

A little off topic, but how did you get the speed and altitude to show on your chart? Those two are missing on mine. I don't get the Ave. Speed either.

 

When I save a track in my 60CSx and then download the track to MapSource, I see two track logs under the "Tracks" User Data Tab on the left side of the screen. If I highlight and view the properties of the "ACTIVE LOG," I see readings for "Elapsed Time" and "Avg. Speed." The track that I saved doesn't show these readings.

 

TracknQ

 

Thank you! That did the trick!

[+dumketu]

I have good news. Regarding Post #46, a Tech Support rep. just told me that whoever sent the email to 8mmag was misinformed. As of today, Garmin has not identified a hardware issue.

 

TracknQ

 

The question is.... Have they identified that it IS an ISSUE?

 

Brian

[+Night Stalker]

Has anyone tested their new units with an external antenna to see if they get the same results. I had similar issues with my original 60CS. It was as though it had lost the signal even though it said it had acquired plenty of satelites. It would also not recognize that I had changed direction for as much as 40 feet and then it would make a big jump.

 

Garmin replaced my original GPS and the problem disappeared. Obviously this is a more persistant issue, but using an external antenna in testing might eliminate one more possibility.

 

[toddm]

This is interesting, and I don't believe it's a fix but I thought I would report it anyway. My 76csx was doing the elevation and barometer dropping out '-----' repeatedly, with all sorts of settings etc always within 10-15 minutes of running the track log. I ran across a post from a user that said a hard reset, and calibration fixed the problem for them. I figured it couldn't hurt so I did a unit reset and calibrated the alt. to a known elevation.

 

I've ran several short tests for a hour or two here and there and since the reset, I have not had the issue. My tracklog elevations are correct and I don't get the '----' alt reading and barometer bottoming out to 54hpa. I'm going to run a longer test and see how it goes, but so far the log and elevation reported are consistant.

 

Again this may just be a coincidence as I can't understand why a reset would fix the issue, but maybe some other people can try it and see if it helps their units. This is with auto calibration on, etc. Before I could get it to work without auto calibration off, but not on.

 

I can only wildly guess why it might fix it, it could be that the reset adjusts some setting or calibration of the unit that powering it off an on doesn't. I agree it sounds very very thin at best, but it's certainly the only different thing I've done with the unit that has worked.

 

Interesting at any rate, but probably not a fix.

Edited May 3, 2006 by toddm

[bgarland]

OK, I spoke too soon yesterday. I have the Map76CSx that had this error in the first week and no repeat failures for the last 6 weeks. On the way into work this morning I looked at the GPS and saw the elevation at _______. I did a normal reset and still no valid altitude. I then powered the unit off and back on and calibrarted the altimeter to the current GPS elevation. That corrected the problem for now.

 

I guess I'm in the same boat with the many other CSx users that are experiencing this problem. I'll wait a bit longer to see if Garmin comes up with the root cause and fix we are all waiting for.

Edited May 3, 2006 by bgarland

[nathantw]

I may be grasping for straws but my unit never had this problem until I put the Custom POI in it. I'm wondering if that may have something to do with it?

 

On another note, the problem is happening more and more frequently and it's getting annoying as heck. This morning the gps was reading _ _ _ so I changed the Altimeter setting for Auto Calibration to OFF. Once I did that there was an altimeter reading again. I'm going to try it with Auto Calibration Off for a while to see if it comes back.

[+offroute]

On another note, the problem is happening more and more frequently and it's getting annoying as heck. This morning the gps was reading _ _ _ so I changed the Altimeter setting for Auto Calibration to OFF. Once I did that there was an altimeter reading again. I'm going to try it with Auto Calibration Off for a while to see if it comes back.

My finding is that if you turn the altimeters auto-calibration off, then you never experience the problem. The bad elevation readout seems to be triggered when the unit tries to auto-recalibrate the elevation value. I'm told this auto-recalibration happens at regular intervals of say 15 minutes or so. Why it doesn't always corrupt the elevation value is the mystery. However, if I put only recalibrate manually, I never experience the corruption.

[+JohnInDC]

I've seen this problem too. For what it's worth:

 

Unit about 3-4 weeks old

 

Running 2.60 (not the beta)

 

I live in Washington DC and the unit hasn't been above 500 ft since I've owned it

 

Altimeter periodically displays "______"

 

The problem can be cured, temporarily, with a recalibration or a restart

 

Track log is about 70% full

 

I had never calibrated the altimeter until the first time the problem presented itself

 

I've dropped a note to Garmin. Let's see what they say about this unit.

[nathantw]

 

I've dropped a note to Garmin. Let's see what they say about this unit.

 

The last note I got from Garmin appeared to be all cut up like they took a bunch of things out of it. The altimeter part was interesting because they basically said "turn auto-calibration off." Then they said that a patch is in the works. Keep your eyes open for it.

[+dumketu]

 

I've dropped a note to Garmin. Let's see what they say about this unit.

 

The last note I got from Garmin appeared to be all cut up like they took a bunch of things out of it. The altimeter part was interesting because they basically said "turn auto-calibration off." Then they said that a patch is in the works. Keep your eyes open for it.

 

Interesting. This was one of many theories I had about the problem. Since I have turned autocalibration off I have not seen this error reappear. It has only been a few days though. I wonder if a rapid change in air pressure between autocalibrations might be what triggers it. The first time it happend there were some storm clouds forming 20-30 miles from where I was. The second time there was a cyclone 5-600 miles south of me, but where I am located, that could have affected the weather patterns. Another factor could be that I am currently in S. Asia and we have started transitioning into the monsoon season. I had the GPS for nearly a month before the errors started, and at that time the weather was pretty stable. This could explain why some are getting the error more often than others. The other thing that happened about the same time the errors started was a significant increase in humidity. Just a few theories.

 

I just ran a little experiment. I turned auto calibration of the altimeter back on, then let the GPS run. I also checked the barometer which was reading 1011.0mb when it started. And guess what, the error re-appeared. Here is the associated track log for that time --

 

index Time Altitude leg length leg time leg speed leg course position

3 5/5/2006 8:30:34 AM 12 m 10 ft 0:04:55 0.0 mph 164° true N23 48 10.7 E90 24 50.2

4 5/5/2006 8:35:29 AM 16 m 16 ft 0:00:01 11 mph 286° true N23 48 10.6 E90 24 50.2

5 5/5/2006 8:35:30 AM 17 m 32 ft 0:00:13 2 mph 292° true N23 48 10.6 E90 24 50.1

6 5/5/2006 8:35:43 AM 29999 m 1 ft 0:00:01 0.5 mph 311° true N23 48 10.7 E90 24 49.7

7 5/5/2006 8:35:44 AM 29999 m 4 ft 0:00:01 3 mph 289° true N23 48 10.7 E90 24 49.7

8 5/5/2006 8:35:45 AM 29999 m 2 ft 0:00:01 1.5 mph 292° true N23 48 10.7 E90 24 49.7

 

So I then checked the barometer, which now was reading 0.0mb. Then, without doing anything else, I turned auto calibration of the altimeter off. And everything basically returned to normal --

 

1297 5/5/2006 8:59:21 AM 29999 m 3 ft 0:00:01 2 mph 100° true N23 48 11.1 E90 24 49.7

1298 5/5/2006 8:59:22 AM 29999 m 6 ft 0:00:01 4 mph 110° true N23 48 11.1 E90 24 49.7

1299 5/5/2006 8:59:23 AM 29999 m 4 ft 0:00:01 3 mph 150° true N23 48 11.1 E90 24 49.8

1300 5/5/2006 8:59:24 AM 7 m 24 ft 0:00:14 1.2 mph 158° true N23 48 11.1 E90 24 49.8

1301 5/5/2006 8:59:38 AM 6 m 14 ft 0:00:16 0.6 mph 83° true N23 48 10.8 E90 24 49.9

1302 5/5/2006 8:59:54 AM 8 m 28 ft 0:00:34 0.6 mph 249° true N23 48 10.9 E90 24 50.0

 

EXCEPT that the barometer was still reading 0.0mb. I turned the unit off and on again and the barometer was back to 1011.3mb.

 

Conclusion -- the problem is with autocalibration of the altimeter/barometer, but there might be a physical fault with the altimeter/barometer that plays a role in this.

 

Brian

Edited May 5, 2006 by dumketu

[Garmin8888]

I would send that info to Garmin Tech lads...... by the way olde bean how does one turn off turn 'auto-calibration' off please?

[+dumketu]

I would send that info to Garmin Tech lads...... by the way olde bean how does one turn off turn 'auto-calibration' off please?

 

It has been sent to Garmin, as has my tracks from previous errors. Garmin has not yet responded - even to acknowledge they got what I sent them. Always heard they had poor customer service.

 

To turn off auto calibration do the following -

 

1. Press Menu twice

2. Select Setup and press enter

3. Select Altimeter (it is normally not visible, you have to page down to it) and press enter

4. Set Auto Calibraton to off and press enter.

 

Brian

Edited May 5, 2006 by dumketu

[nathantw]

I'm sure you'll hear from Garmin eventually, Brian. Sometimes it takes a couple days.

 

I actually don't think the air pressure has anything to do with the unit altimeter dying. I noticed that yours only went up to 29,999. I just looked at mine and it was up to 98,381ft. It is a little hard to breath while I'm up this high, but I somehow manage.

 

I swear that in a month I hadn't had any problems with my unit. It wasn't until I put the red light camera POI, the tide charts, and the 1GB chip in the unit that it's started to freak out. Now the problem is very consistent and happens quite frequently. How irritating.

 

So, now we have two things we can't keep consistently on. We can't leave the barometer on auto-calibrate or we'll be flying up to 100,000 ft and we can't leave the unit's WAAS on. If we left WAAS on and went through a long tunnel we'd lose the satellites.

 

It definitely appears that Garmin was in a rush to bring out this unit because they were excited about SiRF, using SD chips, and they had to reach their 50 - 60 product release quota for the year. It really doesn't appear they tested this unit before it went out the door.

[Henny Pa]

Back in April I had this problem with my 60CSx as reported in an earlier post.

 

I use my GPS on daily basis. To this date I haven't had the altitude problem resurface. I have the altimeter set for auto calibrate, a 512 card and I'm running the beta software.

 

I forgot to mention in an earlier post that prior to recalibrating and restarting the GPS, I deleted the entire track log history. There were tracks on there from Taiwan, Japan and other places that I've never been! I don't believe that I have a need for those tracks. I don't know if that had anything to do with the altimeter problem or not.

 

Don't abandon hope yet on this problem!

 

 

Why do I feel that right after I hit the post button, my GPS will revert right back to the same problem?

Edited May 5, 2006 by Henny Pa

[bgarland]

I actually don't think the air pressure has anything to do with the unit altimeter dying. I noticed that yours only went up to 29,999. I just looked at mine and it was up to 98,381ft.

 

looking at his logs, I think his 29,999 is in meters. That would equate to aprox 98,381 ft. :-)

[+dumketu]

Right about the elevation, mine was in meters.

 

I am on the other side of the world from the US and can't use waas anyway. However, when I had a waas gps in the US it never did any better that the 60csx is doing now without waas. It would be nice though if they had not used marketing deception with the thing. Garmin needs to fix the issue, and perhaps waas will improve to where it will provide an added benefit. I have checked my 60csx tracks against high resolution imagery, and regardless of what the gps says the error is, the gps is consistently falling within 1 meter of actual location. The only exceptios are right after the unit is turned on, very, very poor reception (like in a basement), and after sitting in one spot for a long time it wanders as much as 10 meters away, but normally stays within about 3 meters. This last one is confounding and there has been much written about it on this board.

 

I did get a reply from garmin:

 

"Thanks for the feedback, I will forward your findings to my supervisor, if

this error can be reproduced, we will alert engineering and request a

firmware correction."

 

Obviously a response from someone not familiar with everyone else writing in, but at least I have done my part to try and help them fix the problem.

 

Brian

[+JohnInDC]

This is a semi-related question:

 

How do you instruct a 60csx to report *only* GPS altitude? I used my unit on a flight from Washington to Detroit recently. Not surprisingly the unit initially reported low (<8000 ft), barometically-based altitudes as we ascended to our cruising altitude of 38,000 (!) feet. Periodically I would 'calibrate' to the GPS altitude, which seemed to be reporting more or less accurately, but from that point forward the unit would fail to accurately report our continuing climb and I'd have to recalibrate again. I tried to figure out a way to persuade the unit to ignore the cabin pressure but couldn't figure out how. Any hints?

 

Also as an aside, there came a point in the flight, above 35,000 feet, when nothing I did could convince the unit that we were higher than about 7500 feet. It was correctly reporting "GPS altitude", but a recalibration would last for literally a fraction of a second before snapping back to 7400-7500 feet. This was with auto-calibration on and off both. Seemed like a bug to me.

[toddm]

I don't believe you can set it to do that, I guess they assume if you bought the altimeter version that's all you're intersted in (you know what they say about assume). There really should be an option for one of the data fields to be gps elevation, instead of just barometer/altimeter elevation.

 

That actually seems very odd to me, that the gps altitude was correct, I guess I assumed the gps altitude would report the altitude based on your location as if you were on the ground, I have no clue how it could know you were above the ground in an airplane. Unless it's doing some kinda of math on a timestamp signal delay from the satelite.

Edited May 8, 2006 by toddm

[+JohnInDC]

I always understood that if you had a lock on 4 or more satellites it could tell you your elevation - not with anything approaching the precision of your location on the sphere, but a useful indicator anyhow. On this plane I found the GPS-based estimate to be pretty well on the money, corresponding well within reason to the captain's periodic announcements ("we have just passed 27,000 feet on our way to our cruising altitude of 38,000 feet . . .").

 

I know what you mean about 'paying for the feature', but they give you the option of disabling the (equally optional) magnetic compass in favor of the GPS. I don't know why they'd treat the altimeter differently. I mean, in both cases sometimes the feature you paid for just doesn't work, and you need to disable it.

[+cron]

I think you can see the GPS elevation on the satellite page ("menu" > "altitude"). This is what's used to auto-calibrate the electronic altimeter. The manual explains that.

Edited May 8, 2006 by cron

[TracknQ]

This is a semi-related question:

 

How do you instruct a 60csx to report *only* GPS altitude? ...

JohnInDC,

 

I downloaded the owner's manual from Garmin.com to my computer. I put a shortcut to the manual on my desktop. When questions arise, I use Acrobat Reader's Search PDF function to look for answers.

 

Page 38 of the owner's manual says: "GPS Elevation - your GPS determined elevation."

 

I believe that selecting Satellite Page > Options Menu > GPS Elevation > Enter will give you a one-time reading of GPS elevation, without the influence of barometric pressure, as of the moment that you press the Enter button.

 

TracknQ

[+JohnInDC]

I believe that selecting Satellite Page > Options Menu > GPS Elevation > Enter will give you a one-time reading of GPS elevation, without the influence of barometric pressure, as of the moment that you press the Enter button.

 

TracknQ

 

Yes, thanks. I found that feature, no problem. What I want to do is to instruct the GPS to ignore the barometer altogether during stretches when I know that the barometer will be inaccurate, for example in the passenger compartment of a jetliner. If you can't do that, then when you're buying a 60csx instead of a 60cx, you're not buying an additional way to measure altitude but paying extra money to make an irrevocable choice about how your GPS will display it. That doesn't seem right!

[toddm]

It certainly should be an option, but it's not, the only elevation you can report in a data field is the altimeter elevation, as you said at times it would be nice to be able to turn it off, they do it with the compass feature, which is equally problematic.

 

While I realize it's an optional feature, being able to turn it off or at least set a data field to gps elevation would be a very nice feature. Esp. since at times the altimeter based elevation is horribly inaccurate over any length of time. As you said in an airplane, or even in changing weather conditions.

 

I can let the unit sit in my house for the day with the windows open, and set a base elevation in the morning and it's not uncommon to be a couple hundred feet off by evening. I realize the gps based elevations are not that accurate either, but to be honest with that kind of swing I can see little use for using the altimeter based elevation say hiking in the mountains where pressure is constantly and quickly changing. On that note my Suunto seems to be much less prone to elevation swings.

 

On another note I'd like to see them allow the user to add custom data pages as well, similar to the trip page, where you can add more data fields. This way if you wanted a group of data fields for biking, or driving, or hiking, etc. you don't have to mess with constantly changing them on the trip page. I'd also like to see them allow smaller data fields as the 76s used to have, you could get 3 across instead of just 2 now on the 76csx, granted it was smaller text, but it was useful to get more data on the same page, esp. since you only get one page of just data, and then you could get more data on other screens while covering up less of the original data (map, etc).

 

Send the request to garmin, maybe they will listen and impliment the features, they should be simple software fixes. I do find it amusing (actually not) that the two features that make the csx units stand out from the cx units both are burdened heavily with problems. Garmin's units in the past have been near bullet proof out of the gate but these new "x" units are certainly not up to that standard yet.

[+Team FUBAR]

So, sounds like nobody has anything good to say about these units. Im going to be buying one of these units shortly and need some advice. I don't necessarily need the barameter but I do like the electronic compazs feature. So here's my question, does the altimeter being off mess with your accyracy. Like if I mark a waypoint and the barometer is reading say 5000 feet, and I go to return to it later and the baremeter is reading 30,000 feet is the unit gonna tell me I'm 25,000 feet off? You know what I'm saying. Do these units mark the vertical as well as the horizontal as the location?

 

Bill

[toddm]

As to your question, the gps waypoints do make a note of elevation when a waypoint is made. However by the looks of it, they use the gps elevation value not the altimeter elevation value. At least that's what my 76csx does by default and I have not run across another setting to change it. You can alter the value when you create the waypoint. I guess that's good in cases where the gps elevation is more accurate and a person has to remember to manually change the value if the altimeter value is more accurate.

 

I wouldn't say people have nothing good to say about the "x" units, but it's more that they are not living up to what we have come to expect from past experience from garmin. I came from a 76s and overall I do not regret buying a 76csx, the ability to use memory cards and the color screen and turn by turn routing alone are worth the upgrade, however that does not mean there are not some issues I am disappointed with.

 

The reception is amazing, no one will argue that, and in reality it doesn't matter how well your gps functions or how many features it has if you can't get a signal in the first place. There have been some issues with accuracy not being as good, and the cursor wandering problem. I don't see either as severe, I would guess they are using in some cases less than perfect signals and lower signal strength to gain some of their extra reception and this can cause more wandering and such. However, I'd much rather have a slight bit more error/wandering and be able to get a signal than little error and no signal. My 76s or Legend would not get a signal sitting in my apartment by the patio window. With my 76csx I can get a signal in the basement with one little window anywhere in the room.

 

On that note you have the problem with garmin units being unable to regain signal if it is lost, say if you go through a tunnel, without powering the unit on and off. Is that an end of the world problem......nah.....should it happen on a $450 gps unit....no. Will it be addressed in firmware updates......we're all waiting to find out.

 

The display to me is great and somewhat disappointing, as it's my first color gps unit, it's obviously really nice to have the color display. Because with routing and maps in grayscale colors it can be very confusing where your route is etc. esp. in urban areas. The turn by turn routing and ability to re-route on the fly if you miss a turn is great. On the downside I miss my old 76s ability to put smaller and therefore more data information boxes on the pages. I also dislike that I can change the color of a track but not a route, to me the ability to change the color of a route is very helpful depending on if you are using topo maps the basemap or street maps or even in a rural or urban setting. The default is a red/maroon that also looks a lot like the color for interstates so that can be confusing in urban areas. The night map background is a dark blue, it would be much easier to read text and such if it was changed to pure black.

 

The altimeter has been giving people lots of problems, erratic behavior mostly, again if my altitude is way off it's probably not a life and death deal for my use, however it is a feature you pay extra for and it should work. This hopefully will be fixed with future firmware as well.

 

On my unit at least, to me the electronic compass is worthless. If you really need a good compass either get a nice dedicated electronic compass with 3rd axis sensors or just a nice magnetic compass. My 76s was much better than my 76csx in this respect. The 76csx is way way too sensitive to tilt to make it useful. It does now have the "hold level" indicator but you can get nearly 100 degrees of swing in your heading before the hold level indicator comes on. It's easy to tell you are tilting the unit long before the indicator turns on.

 

For example if I sight an object and it's heading reads 270 degrees with me trying to hold the unit level, if I tilt the front end up high enough that the hold level comes on it's at 325 degrees, and if I tilt the rear up it reads 220 degrees. While that amount of tilt would be easy to notice in the field, getting say 10-15 degrees either way would be easy to do by a small amount of tilt, to me that level of accuracy is unacceptable. An 1/8" or so of tilt front or back can cause that 10 degree plus or minus swing which would be easy to do without noticing in the field. I'd hate to see the compound error on a position triangulation with 3 headings that are all off by +/- 10 degrees. On top of that I would guess the calibration is equally sensitive to tilt so you have another error factor there. So until they can get a compass that is more resistant to tilt I find the csx electronic compass to be useless for anything other than a source of complaint. They could work around this similar to what suunto has done and build a bubble level into the screen or housing of the unit for consistency, or the correct fix would be to use a 3rd axis electronic compass.

 

It's a good unit, but it definitely seems to be having more problems than I'm used to from my past garmin experiences. Hopefully most of these things will be fixed with future firmware releases. Hopefully before garmin shifts its main focus to a new unit that will replace it. If I had it to do over again I'm not sure I would bother with the "CSX" model just because the two things you are paying for the altimeter and the compass both seem to be having major problems, they may fix the altimeter issues but the compass is what it is.

[+JohnInDC]

Oh, to be clear - I really like this 60csx. The reception is great, the menus are easy to navigate, and can be customized to a fare-thee-well. The altimeter thing is annoying and a little disappointing but only because I think Garmin has missed out on what would seem like a common sense implementation (i.e., give user the option of picking which altimeter reading is displayed). (I do like the idea of adding 'gps elevation' as a selectable data field. That would resolve my issues.)

 

Other than that really pretty minor gripe, I've been quite happy so far.

[nathantw]

It's a good unit, but it definitely seems to be having more problems than I'm used to from my past garmin experiences. Hopefully most of these things will be fixed with future firmware releases. Hopefully before garmin shifts its main focus to a new unit that will replace it. If I had it to do over again I'm not sure I would bother with the "CSX" model just because the two things you are paying for the altimeter and the compass both seem to be having major problems, they may fix the altimeter issues but the compass is what it is.

 

I compared the electronic compass with my handheld compass and they both matched. The gps has a message that pops up if you don't hold it level.

 

I was very gung-ho about the 60CSx before and after I bought the unit. However, now that I've actually had it for a month I'm really wishing I bought the 60Cx instead. The altimeter was pretty accurate until a couple weeks ago when it started showing the "___" consistently and constantly. The routing is frustrating because the unit "thinks" the streets are faster than the freeway. Not being able to use WAAS consistently is pretty bad. Then I found out the screen can scratch a lot easier than the GPS V and it'll cost $175 to fix. To top it off a beta version of their firmware has been available for more than a month, meaning their true release is a lot older than that. The oldest Beta I saw was from December of last year and it was just updated recently. So we can see that it might be a while before a new firmware release is available.

 

I'm just disenchanted by the whole thing. When I buy something for so much money I expect it to work and not be a beta tester for a new product. Garmin should have tested their units extensively before releasing the 60CSx/76CSx units. Instead they figured that they'll let the public be their paying beta testers (not paid beta testers mind you). It's really frustrating.

[toddm]

Oddly enough after doing a hard reset and doing a dozen or so long term tests with auto calibrate on, I have yet to be able to get the "----" I used to get to repeat itself. Odd for sure, and I doubt it's a fix the problem will probably eventally return. However at least temporarily on my unit it seems to have fixed the issue, before it would happen every time within 15 minutes of starting logging.

 

I also wonder about the accuracy of the altimeter itself. Case in point I'm currently about 12 hours into a altimeter tracking session. I set my Suunto vector at 910' and the same for my 76csx and have been letting them run in the house overnight. The Suunto admittedly has only 10' incriments but it's max recorded elevation is 910, and min is 900. So even if you figure 5' either way from those values it's a max swing of 20' The garmin has had a min. value of 887' and a max value of 943' for a 12 hour swing of almost 60'. 3x the error/change of the suunto unit. The odd part is the pressures indicated by both units are nearly identical, but over time it seems as if the 76csx creeps upward. I'm wondering if the auto calibration ends up with a increasing error over time due to rounding up etc. So I'm going to run a similar test to see if the same trend happens with auto calibration off.

 

For giggles I did several compass tests, I took 10 sight and go headings of a landmark, making sure to keep my position the same each time, and doing a compass calibration between each measurement. I figured this would compound the possible error of tilt during calibration and taking the measurement. I tried as best I could go keep the unit level during the calibration and the sight n go measurements, but I was not overly anal about it, I eyeballed it as level and took a measurement just as you'd have to in the field. It was also over level ground so I did not have to tilt the unit to make the measurements.

 

My reference heading on the landmark was taken with a brunton geotransit, admittedly overkill for the comparison but easily capable of sub 1 degree measurements. 10 sightings were taken, Average was 278 degrees, but ranged from 277.0 - 278.5 degrees. I also did this test with a brunton 8099 and came up with an average of 277.5 Magnetic declination was selected for both units so the gps given heading should be indentical to the reference heading, as I set the declination on the brunton to that which the garmin used.

 

The average for 10 tests using the garmin sight and go was 271 degrees, the max value being 278 and the min value being 267. Not horrible, but still a swing of 11 degrees with the average being 6-7 degrees off of the true magnetic value. This to me is not acceptable for any kind of navigation or triangulation use. Especially when a $40 brunton sighting compass spanks it. I could actually get closer values say +/- 2 degrees with my suunto advizor by just holding it at waist level and trying to center my body toward the landmark and making sure the suunto was level, and it has no sighting feature at all.

 

What worries me most about the above is not so much the 10 degree swing, although even +/- 5 degrees is a pretty poor error value for a compass., is that the average is no where near the correct value. If the average was at least correct a person could take 4-5 sightings if you had to and could average them out, but it does not appear that is a accurate option either.

Edited May 9, 2006 by toddm

[+Team FUBAR]

Thanks for you excellent reviews. I'm still going to buya x series but I believe I'm going to purchase the 60cx. Unless there's any hint that that the firmware in the future will allow you to choose between which elevation you can use. The compass is a nice thing that I was orginally pretty excited about but I'm wondering now if it's just better to spend a few extrean bucks on a decent handheld magnetic. Can the electronic compass be turned off and on as you want to use it?

 

Bill

[-Oz-]

Can the electronic compass be turned off and on as you want to use it?

Yes, this is done by holding down the Page button on the 60csx.

 

Also, to add to this thread, the 2.70 firmware claims to fix the elevation issues.

[+dumketu]

Looks like the fix is on the street.... Lets give it a try.....

 

Garmin is pleased to announce that new software is available for the GPSMAP 60CSx.

 

The new software is: GPSMAP 60CSx Ver. 2.70

 

Garmin recommends that you install this software by using our WebUpdater software. You can learn about WebUpdater on this page:

 

http://www.garmin.com/products/webupdater/

 

You can download the new software from our website by clicking the following link:

 

http://www.garmin.com/support/collection.j...ct=010-00422-00

 

Changes made from version 2.60 to 2.70:

 

* Improve path nighttime color for map Topo Great Britain v2.

* Enhance layout and functionality of tide station chart information.

* Add new time zones for major cities in the U.S. and Europe.

* Improve By-Name city search to use all available maps.

* Improve layout of airport information display.

* Improve reset function of timer lap distance.

* Improve route calculation performance by setting recalculation distance farther ahead.

* Fix issue where extremely high or low altitude readings could occur when baro auto-calibration was enabled.

* Prevent Poor Satellite Reception popup from repeatedly occurring when GPS is off.

* Add GPRMB sentence to the NMEA output.

* Improve stability when using Lithium Ion Battery.

* Fix track log time stamps.

* Improve Custom POI banner display on map preview page.

* Fix issue where total ascent and total descent were incorrectly computed.

[8mmag]

Well, I got my replacement 60CSx back today, exactly 7 days from the time I sent it. Boy I felt naked without it...

 

Interestingly,

- The new unit has a serial number over 25,000 higher than my original.

- As instructed, I sent only the GPSr itself, no data card, no accessories. What I got back was a complete package in the box with GPSr, strap, 64Mb microSD card, Trip & Waypoint CD, manual, USB cable, button & belt clip etc.

- They even reloaded my waypoints to the new unit.

- The firmware was Software Version 2.60, GPS SW Version 2.50...my old unit was GPS SW 2.40!!!

- Amazingly, firmware 2.70 was released today to fix the elevation among other things. I just installed it.

 

Seems to be working fine so far, time will tell I guess. In spite of some misinformation from tech support, I do have to commend Garmin for their Customer Care.

 

Anyone else have GPS SW 2.50?

Edited May 10, 2006 by 8mmag

[kb9nvh]

Nope, I have version 2.4

 

Well, I got my replacement 60CSx back today, exactly 7 days from the time I sent it. Boy I felt naked without it...

 

Interestingly,

- The new unit has a serial number over 25,000 higher than my original.

- As instructed, I sent only the GPSr itself, no data card, no accessories. What I got back was a complete package in the box with GPSr, strap, 64Mb microSD card, Trip & Waypoint CD, manual, USB cable, button & belt clip etc.

- They even reloaded my waypoints to the new unit.

- The firmware was Software Version 2.60, GPS SW Version 2.50...my old unit was GPS SW 2.40!!!

- Amazingly, firmware 2.70 was released today to fix the elevation among other things. I just installed it.

 

Seems to be working fine so far, time will tell I guess. In spite of some misinformation from tech support, I do have to commend Garmin for their Customer Care.

 

Anyone else have GPS SW 2.50?

[+Lost Pilot]

Nope, I have version 2.4

 

Well, I got my replacement 60CSx back today, exactly 7 days from the time I sent it. Boy I felt naked without it...

 

Interestingly,

- The new unit has a serial number over 25,000 higher than my original.

- As instructed, I sent only the GPSr itself, no data card, no accessories. What I got back was a complete package in the box with GPSr, strap, 64Mb microSD card, Trip & Waypoint CD, manual, USB cable, button & belt clip etc.

- They even reloaded my waypoints to the new unit.

- The firmware was Software Version 2.60, GPS SW Version 2.50...my old unit was GPS SW 2.40!!!

- Amazingly, firmware 2.70 was released today to fix the elevation among other things. I just installed it.

 

Seems to be working fine so far, time will tell I guess. In spite of some misinformation from tech support, I do have to commend Garmin for their Customer Care.

 

Anyone else have GPS SW 2.50?

 

Just received my 60CSx yesterday, same day as firmware update, talk about living right...I updated to 2.70 but I can't find where to check if I have GPS SW 2.40 or 2.50.

 

Thanks.

[+dumketu]

It does seem that Garmin has listened to its customers and fixed many of the problems with the 2.70 release. That is encouraging. Still need to see if it actually fixes the problems, but I am hopeful. I did notice though that 2.70 DOES NOT add the feature in the 2.62 beta to save tracklogs to the SD card. I guess this feature needs to work out a few kinks yet.

 

Brian

Edited May 10, 2006 by dumketu

[freeday]

How do you display the software version?

 

* Menu, Menu, Setup, Enter, System, Enter, Menu, Software Version, Enter

[TracknQ]

Please see my new thread, "Version 2.70 Bugs." I ran some tests because my 60CSx showed an increasing total ascent while I was going downhill. I'm still having altitude problems with 2.70.

 

TracknQ

[+Malarky]

I was 30000 feet in the air and my CSx said I was 3000, so I told it, "he gps, recalibrate my altitude, punk" and it was like, "sure thing, doc." And that is how I fixed that, it was 33,000 after that and the landing went smoothly.

[60csxuser]

Garmin 60CSx altimeter testing

 

Hello there!

 

Inspired by the posts about the Garmin 60CSx altimeter I decided to investigate its behavior a little further and compare it with the GPS altitude data. Thanks to this forum, I first installed the 2.70 software update and got rid of the altitude bugs reported earlier.

 

First an short introduction to pressure altimeters. A traditional aircraft altimeter works by converting the ambient pressure to an altitude value using the fact that ambient pressure decreases around 1 mb (millibar, sorry for my metric units) for each 8 metres (27 ft). Before each flight it must always be reset according to the current barometer setting, in order to show correctly the altitude above sea level. As the barometer reading, i.e. the ambient pressure at sea level, is constantly changing with the weather, this resetting must be redone frequently (every hour or so).

In the 60CSx, this resetting is according to an internet posting done automatically by using the GPS altitude as an reference and making the adjustment every 15 minutes.

 

In this first test the altimeter was in auto-calibration mode and in the variable elevation mode. The GPS was stationary near a window with a view to the northeast. Satellite reception was medium (see screenshot). The real altitude of this location is around 25-30 metres (75-90 ft) above sea level.

The test was run for around ten hours during the night (22:16-08:58). GPS altitude was recorded via the NMEA interface and OziExplorer. Ozi was configured to record a track point every time the position changed 5 metres . This resulted in a track with 4591 track points (and a travel distance of 44 kilometres). The 60CSx "Barometric" altitude was recorded by the unit's own track log. This track contained 1120 track points. As a reference I used the 48-hour ambient pressure plot available from the website of Vaisala Inc., a manufacturer of industrial weather sensors, located about 10 km (6 miles) away.

 

Initial conclusions

 

Let’s start with the ambient pressure plot and compare it with the Vaisala data (at the end of their 48h plot).

 

To my eyes they are quite similar, with the exception of the Garmin’s -2 mb dip at 22:59 and 1 mb peak at 23:40 respectively. I have no explanation for this peak but it is possible that it is caused by a draught from an open window or similar local pressure variation.

The Vaisala data shows a pressure variation of around 2.5 mb during the test. This means that a traditional pressure altimeter would have shown an altitude variation of around 20 metres (61 ft).

 

Next comparison is the altitude. On the following Excel graph I have plotted the GPS altitude in dark blue. As you can see the data points are quite scattered, so I also plotted the rolling 50-point average (violet) which looks somewhat better. The yellow line is the altitude data as recorded by the Garmin altimeter.

 

It seems quite clear that the Garmin uses the GPS data in smoothed form to adjust its altimeter reading. In this case the GPS altitude varies quite much, so the benefit of the altimeter is mainly to dampen the variations from a 200-metre (610 ft) range to a 50-metre (150 ft) range. The altimeter plot also managed to suppress the erroneous GPS altitudes seen at around 05:30, which went as high as 18000 feet. The GPS intermittently lost satellite contact during that time.

 

 

This Garmin’s screen capture of the elevation (altitude) is a little misleading since it plots elevation over distance, not time. So the nice long flat part of the graph actually only represents 1.5 hours out of the 10-hour measurement period. I subsequently found out that the Garmin can also plot elevation over time, I will use that next time.

 

 

Finally we have the Garmin’s barometer plot. I’ll have to retest this as I have problems making sense of it. I theory a higher pressure should correspond to a lower altitude, but the comparison with the Excel altitude plot is not simple.

 

So far the conclusion about 60 CSx altimeter errors is that the altimeter with automatic calibration showed up to 50 metres (150 ft) variation during the test. If the auto-calibration mode would have been off, the variation would have been slightly better, around 30 metres (90 ft) (the main error due to the mysterious dip and peak in the ambient pressure plot) but in that case an initial manual calibration would have been necessary. In this mode also the natural pressure variation will introduce errors. For example, the Vaisala archives showed several recent days with a sustained pressure change gradient of 0.5 mb/hour, which during e.g. an 8-hour period would introduce a 32 m (105 ft) altitude error.

 

Comments are welcome, both on the results and if there is something to refine in the methodology. My plan is to test next time with auto-calibration off, and also try to see if a better GPS satellite view would improve the GPS altitude data, which to me seems less accurate than expected.

Edited May 26, 2006 by 60csxuser

[-Oz-]

my only comment is totally awesome post. So useful and definitely explains a bit to me.