TracknQ

RussG, I recently returned my 60CSx to REI for a full refund after three months of continual problems. Loaded with 2.90/2.60 (the latest firmwares), my 60CSx had a very inaccurate altimeter, an extremely inaccurate odometer, and total ascent measurements that were so inaccurate that they were useless. There was also a 'barometer bug.' I have two friends who have been experiencing similar inaccuracies and problems with their 60CSx's. These problems are discussed in a number of Groundspeak Forums threads. For example, see "Garmin 60csx Trip Computer Issue" and my Post #48 in that thread. My advice: Beware! Do NOT buy a 60CSx! TracknQ

Jeff ("thehikindude"), I bought my 60CSx at REI in Bend, OR, on March 29th. Garmin replaced my first 60CSx. I returned the replacement 60CSx to REI for a full refund on June 28th. In the three month interval, I had MANY problems with both 60CSx units. Here are four posts that detail my problems. Post #95: I used my 60CSx when hiking. My many problems are described in previous posts in this thread. Recently, with 2.90/2.60 loaded, my 60CSx showed odometer readings that were much shorter than actual trail distances. When I downloaded my tracks into MapSource, the track lengths were longer than actual trail distances. That was it for me! Today, I returned my 60CSx, MapSource Topo, MapSource City Navigator, NG Topo! and a nylon carrying case to REI. I got a $822.90 refund. I purchased other items from sellers who don't have REI's 100% satisfaction guarantee. I spent/lost about $240 on rechargeable batteries and a battery charger, a 1 GB MicroSD card, a Garmin car power cord, the TopoFusion program, and the cost to ship a prior malfunctioning 60CSx back to Garmin. I agree with everything that iNiq has said. Garmin should be ashamed! Post #22: 8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently. From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.' Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing. Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped. Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx. You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers. I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. Post #26: SandyGarrity, In case your question was directed to me, I'll answer. My 60CSx is my first GPSr. Including the MapSource U.S. Topo and City Navigator software, a National Geographic Topo! State-series program, rechargeable NiMH batteries, a NiMH battery charger, a 1GB MicroSD card, a screen shield, and a carrying case, I paid $1,002 for my 60CSx. I had to send my first 60CSx back to Garmin because I was getting +98,422 foot and -4,921 foot elevation readings. The replacement 60CSx that Garmin sent me gave the same extremely wrong elevation readings. Garmin also sent me a 60Cx by mistake. I had to return that unit to Garmin before I could get my second replacement 60CSx. When I stop to take photographs or to eat a snack or to have a conversation, my 60CSx keeps adding distance to my track log, because the hypersensitive SiRF chipset causes significant horizontal wanderings. If I turn my 60CSx off to stop the wanderings, I end up with multiple tracks instead of one easily viewable track. When I take a hike with auto-calibration enabled, starting and ending at precisely the same location, my end elevation is always higher than my start elevation -- sometimes by as much as 80 feet. I call that "creeping elevation." I suppose, to be more correct, I should call that "vertical wandering." The little rate of ascent/descent indicator, in the left lower corner of my 60CSx's Altimeter Page, constantly fluctuates large feet/mile distances, upward and downward, when I'm standing still. I guess that's "vertical wandering" too. When I take repeated GPS elevation readings, using my 60CSx's Satellite Page > Menu > GPS Elevation option, I get similar large "vertical wanderings." When I'm hiking downhill, my 60CSx's total ascent readings continue to climb; and when I hike exactly the same route day after day, I get totally different total ascent readings. From my point of view, the total ascent data field is useless. At sea level, my ambient pressure and barometer readings are frequently 5 millibars apart. By definition, ambient and barometric pressures should be equal at sea level. Others have called this 60CSx malfunction "the barometer bug." With auto-calibration and WAAS enabled and strong satellite signals, my 60CSx has given me elevations at National Geodetic Survey benchmarks that are 60-80 feet too high. When I go through a tunnel with WAAS enabled, my 60CSx will not reaquire satellites after I leave the tunnel. I have to turn the 60CSx receiver off and on to reacquire satellites. I have to repeat the off-on steps when I go through multiple tunnels. That creates multiple track logs instead of one easily-viewable track log. Also, if I am climbing or descending while in a tunnel, auto-calibration does not correct for changes in elevation that occurred while I was in the tunnel. Elevation readings are totally incorrect after tunnel passages. During hikes, I've written down elevation readings that my 60CSx displayed. I also recorded where I was when I jotted down the 60CSx's elevation reading. The 60CSx's elevation readings are always different from the elevation readings that my MapSource software displays in track profile segments for the same locations. I've explained all of the foregoing problems to two Garmin higher-ups. Both assured me that my 60CSx is working properly! I'm new to GPS and Garmin. I guess I'm not yet used to the idea that $1,002 should buy me something that doesn't work as advertised but that may be made to work if Garmin publishes firmware that may work. I'd prefer to deal with manufacturers who work bugs out of their products, with pre-market testing, before taking my hard-earned money. Compasses don't cost $1,002. Compasses work flawlessly. Topo maps work too. Both compasses and topo maps can be trusted to work properly. After repeated and careful testing, I've learned that my 60CSx can't be trusted at all. I hope I've answered your question. Post #30: Intermountain Angler, I'm new to GPS. Unfortunately, I didn't have your extensive military training or experience as a licensed guide. I relied on what Garmin claimed in its advertising. Here's part of what Garmin represented as true: Refreshing a GPS Standard ***** In addition, this unit features a new, highly sensitive GPS receiver that acquires satellites faster and lets users track their location in challenging conditions, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. The GPSMAP 60CSx also incorporates a barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data and an electronic compass that displays an accurate heading while standing still. Considered the mainstay among serious outdoor enthusiasts, .... I haven't been trying to "micro manage" my 60CSx. Instead, I've been trying to figure out why my 60CSx doesn't perform as Garmin advertised. Using your word, I've been trying to separate what is "real" from what Garmin falsely claimed. Maybe $1,002 is chicken-feed to you, but, for me, $1,002 is a lot of money. I certainly wouldn't have spent that huge sum on the 60CSx, software and accessories if Garmin had honestly stated that the 60CSx only gives 'approximations' and 'trends' and must be 'constantly' recalibrated because auto-calibration doesn't work. Many others, who lack your extensive training and experience, have exhibited the confusion and upset that you ridicule. For example, check out theslowskys' Post #29 above in this "Not Entirely Happy With My GPSMAP 60CSx" thread. Or look at theslowskys' Post #117 in the "60csx Elevation, Anyone ever get elevation '------' ???" thread. Like me, theslowkys is "new to this GPSr stuff." He can't understand why his new 60CSx isn't accurate and wanders so much. Maybe you should use your extensive training and experience to teach Garmin to be more honest. Good luck, Jeff. TracknQ

Thanks, iNiq. I believe that, over time, more people will come to understand that Garmin lacks ethics. TracknQ

Argpegio, After experiencing many problems with my 60CSx, which I detailed in other threads, I returned my 60CSx and all Garmin software to REI for a full refund a few days ago. From my point of view, Garmin has become either terribly negligent or very corrupt. TracknQ

I used my 60CSx when hiking. My many problems are described in previous posts in this thread. Recently, with 2.90/2.60 loaded, my 60CSx showed odometer readings that were much shorter than actual trail distances. When I downloaded my tracks into MapSource, the track lengths were longer than actual trail distances. That was it for me! Today, I returned my 60CSx, MapSource Topo, MapSource City Navigator, NG Topo! and a nylon carrying case to REI. I got a $822.90 refund. I purchased other items from sellers who don't have REI's 100% satisfaction guarantee. I spent/lost about $240 on rechargeable batteries and a battery charger, a 1 GB MicroSD card, a Garmin car power cord, the TopoFusion program, and the cost to ship a prior malfunctioning 60CSx back to Garmin. I agree with everything that iNiq has said. Garmin should be ashamed! TracknQ

iNiq, I totally agree. I don't want anyone else to be cheated by Garmin's dishonest advertising. I have a hiking buddy who's a retired professional surveyor. He used GPS devices for years in his profession. He's very disappointed with the inaccuracy and vertical and horizontal wanderings of his 60CSx. The folks who've raved about their 60CSx's in this thread may never use the 60CSx's odometer, altimeter or barometer. TracknQ

GeoBC, Check out "Shock-Proof your Garmin GPS." TracknQ

iNiq, You're not alone. I've had LOTS of problems with my 60CSx. See my Posts #s 7 and 20 above in this thread. TracknQ

Gdragon34, Unfortunately, problems with Garmin's SiRF-equipped "x" units keep cropping up. As another example, see today's new thread, "Before I Call Garmin, Can any other 60Cx users duplicate this?" TracknQ

Gdragon, I'm a hiker and climber. I don't geocache. So maybe what's bothered me won't bother you. I've had lots of problems with my 60CSx. See the "Not Entirely Happy With My Gpsmap 60csx, should I send it back to Garmin?", "60csx Elevation, Anyone ever get elevation '------' ???", and "Version 2.70 Bugs" threads for discussions of problems that I and other 60CSx owners have experienced. I've also read about problems with auto-routing, the compass, screen burnout and map lockup in other threads. In case you don't want to search through the above links, here are three of my posts in the first thread above. Post #26 details most of the problems I've experienced. Post #30 talks about Garmin's false advertising. And Post #22 discusses what I learned about the basic design flaw in the 60CSx. Post #22: 8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently. From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.' Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing. Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped. Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx. You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers. I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. Post #26: SandyGarrity, In case your question was directed to me, I'll answer. My 60CSx is my first GPSr. Including the MapSource U.S. Topo and City Navigator software, a National Geographic Topo! State-series program, rechargeable NiMH batteries, a NiMH battery charger, a 1GB MicroSD card, a screen shield, and a carrying case, I paid $1,002 for my 60CSx. I had to send my first 60CSx back to Garmin because I was getting +98,422 foot and -4,921 foot elevation readings. The replacement 60CSx that Garmin sent me gave the same extremely wrong elevation readings. Garmin also sent me a 60Cx by mistake. I had to return that unit to Garmin before I could get my second replacement 60CSx. When I stop to take photographs or to eat a snack or to have a conversation, my 60CSx keeps adding distance to my track log, because the hypersensitive SiRF chipset causes significant horizontal wanderings. If I turn my 60CSx off to stop the wanderings, I end up with multiple tracks instead of one easily viewable track. When I take a hike with auto-calibration enabled, starting and ending at precisely the same location, my end elevation is always higher than my start elevation -- sometimes by as much as 80 feet. I call that "creeping elevation." I suppose, to be more correct, I should call that "vertical wandering." The little rate of ascent/descent indicator, in the left lower corner of my 60CSx's Altimeter Page, constantly fluctuates large feet/mile distances, upward and downward, when I'm standing still. I guess that's "vertical wandering" too. When I take repeated GPS elevation readings, using my 60CSx's Satellite Page > Menu > GPS Elevation option, I get similar large "vertical wanderings." When I'm hiking downhill, my 60CSx's total ascent readings continue to climb; and when I hike exactly the same route day after day, I get totally different total ascent readings. From my point of view, the total ascent data field is useless. At sea level, my ambient pressure and barometer readings are frequently 5 millibars apart. By definition, ambient and barometric pressures should be equal at sea level. Others have called this 60CSx malfunction "the barometer bug." With auto-calibration and WAAS enabled and strong satellite signals, my 60CSx has given me elevations at National Geodetic Survey benchmarks that are 60-80 feet too high. When I go through a tunnel with WAAS enabled, my 60CSx will not reaquire satellites after I leave the tunnel. I have to turn the 60CSx receiver off and on to reacquire satellites. I have to repeat the off-on steps when I go through multiple tunnels. That creates multiple track logs instead of one easily-viewable track log. Also, if I am climbing or descending while in a tunnel, auto-calibration does not correct for changes in elevation that occurred while I was in the tunnel. Elevation readings are totally incorrect after tunnel passages. During hikes, I've written down elevation readings that my 60CSx displayed. I also recorded where I was when I jotted down the 60CSx's elevation reading. The 60CSx's elevation readings are always different from the elevation readings that my MapSource software displays in track profile segments for the same locations. I've explained all of the foregoing problems to two Garmin higher-ups. Both assured me that my 60CSx is working properly! I'm new to GPS and Garmin. I guess I'm not yet used to the idea that $1,002 should buy me something that doesn't work as advertised but that may be made to work if Garmin publishes firmware that may work. I'd prefer to deal with manufacturers who work bugs out of their products, with pre-market testing, before taking my hard-earned money. Compasses don't cost $1,002. Compasses work flawlessly. Topo maps work too. Both compasses and topo maps can be trusted to work properly. After repeated and careful testing, I've learned that my 60CSx can't be trusted at all. I hope I've answered your question. Post #30: Intermountain Angler, I'm new to GPS. Unfortunately, I didn't have your extensive military training or experience as a licensed guide. I relied on what Garmin claimed in its advertising. Here's part of what Garmin represented as true: Refreshing a GPS Standard ***** In addition, this unit features a new, highly sensitive GPS receiver that acquires satellites faster and lets users track their location in challenging conditions, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. The GPSMAP 60CSx also incorporates a barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data and an electronic compass that displays an accurate heading while standing still. Considered the mainstay among serious outdoor enthusiasts, .... I haven't been trying to "micro manage" my 60CSx. Instead, I've been trying to figure out why my 60CSx doesn't perform as Garmin advertised. Using your word, I've been trying to separate what is "real" from what Garmin falsely claimed. Maybe $1,002 is chicken-feed to you, but, for me, $1,002 is a lot of money. I certainly wouldn't have spent that huge sum on the 60CSx, software and accessories if Garmin had honestly stated that the 60CSx only gives 'approximations' and 'trends' and must be 'constantly' recalibrated because auto-calibration doesn't work. Many others, who lack your extensive training and experience, have exhibited the confusion and upset that you ridicule. For example, check out theslowskys' Post #29 above in this "Not Entirely Happy With My GPSMAP 60CSx" thread. Or look at theslowskys' Post #117 in the "60csx Elevation, Anyone ever get elevation '------' ???" thread. Like me, theslowkys is "new to this GPSr stuff." He can't understand why his new 60CSx isn't accurate and wanders so much. Maybe you should use your extensive training and experience to teach Garmin to be more honest. Gdragon, I hope you have no problems with your 60CSx. Good luck! TracknQ

I'm with you on this Sandy ***** For the record I am accomplished with a map and compass due to extensive military training, and having been a licensed guide. As a matter of just plain common sense I would never trust my life in a wilderness area etc to just my GPSr. I look at this piece of equipment just as a way to make things a bit easier but not to replace the knowledge you should have before venturing out. ***** For those of you that micro manage your GPSr you will never be happy with any unit you get. This is not a precise scientific piece of equipment and should not be used or even remotely considered as such. These units are consumer grade and are actually inexpensive compared to scientific GPS equipment. as for the other sensors in these units they of course would not be considered scientific equipment. as far as I am concerned they are there to give me TRENDS in conditions and to let me have an APPROXIMATE elevation, besides being precise is just not possible in something you do not constantly calibrate, move from location to location without constant calibration or just throw on your belt or in your pack and bang around. For crying out loud get real with what you have and how you are using it. Intermountain Angler, I'm new to GPS. Unfortunately, I didn't have your extensive military training or experience as a licensed guide. I relied on what Garmin claimed in its advertising. Here's part of what Garmin represented as true: Refreshing a GPS Standard ***** In addition, this unit features a new, highly sensitive GPS receiver that acquires satellites faster and lets users track their location in challenging conditions, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. The GPSMAP 60CSx also incorporates a barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data and an electronic compass that displays an accurate heading while standing still. Considered the mainstay among serious outdoor enthusiasts, .... I haven't been trying to "micro manage" my 60CSx. Instead, I've been trying to figure out why my 60CSx doesn't perform as Garmin advertised. Using your word, I've been trying to separate what is "real" from what Garmin falsely claimed. Maybe $1,002 is chicken-feed to you, but, for me, $1,002 is a lot of money. I certainly wouldn't have spent that huge sum on the 60CSx, software and accessories if Garmin had honestly stated that the 60CSx only gives 'approximations' and 'trends' and must be 'constantly' recalibrated because auto-calibration doesn't work. Many others, who lack your extensive training and experience, have exhibited the confusion and upset that you ridicule. For example, check out theslowskys' Post #29 above in this "Not Entirely Happy With My GPSMAP 60CSx" thread. Or look at theslowskys' Post #117 in the "60csx Elevation, Anyone ever get elevation '------' ???" thread. Like me, theslowkys is "new to this GPSr stuff." He can't understand why his new 60CSx isn't accurate and wanders so much. Maybe you should use your extensive training and experience to teach Garmin to be more honest. TracknQ

SandyGarrity, In case your question was directed to me, I'll answer. My 60CSx is my first GPSr. Including the MapSource U.S. Topo and City Navigator software, a National Geographic Topo! State-series program, rechargeable NiMH batteries, a NiMH battery charger, a 1GB MicroSD card, a screen shield, and a carrying case, I paid $1,002 for my 60CSx. I had to send my first 60CSx back to Garmin because I was getting +98,422 foot and -4,921 foot elevation readings. The replacement 60CSx that Garmin sent me gave the same extremely wrong elevation readings. Garmin also sent me a 60Cx by mistake. I had to return that unit to Garmin before I could get my second replacement 60CSx. When I stop to take photographs or to eat a snack or to have a conversation, my 60CSx keeps adding distance to my track log, because the hypersensitive SiRF chipset causes significant horizontal wanderings. If I turn my 60CSx off to stop the wanderings, I end up with multiple tracks instead of one easily viewable track. When I take a hike with auto-calibration enabled, starting and ending at precisely the same location, my end elevation is always higher than my start elevation -- sometimes by as much as 80 feet. I call that "creeping elevation." I suppose, to be more correct, I should call that "vertical wandering." The little rate of ascent/descent indicator, in the left lower corner of my 60CSx's Altimeter Page, constantly fluctuates large feet/mile distances, upward and downward, when I'm standing still. I guess that's "vertical wandering" too. When I take repeated GPS elevation readings, using my 60CSx's Satellite Page > Menu > GPS Elevation option, I get similar large "vertical wanderings." When I'm hiking downhill, my 60CSx's total ascent readings continue to climb; and when I hike exactly the same route day after day, I get totally different total ascent readings. From my point of view, the total ascent data field is useless. At sea level, my ambient pressure and barometer readings are frequently 5 millibars apart. By definition, ambient and barometric pressures should be equal at sea level. Others have called this 60CSx malfunction "the barometer bug." With auto-calibration and WAAS enabled and strong satellite signals, my 60CSx has given me elevations at National Geodetic Survey benchmarks that are 60-80 feet too high. When I go through a tunnel with WAAS enabled, my 60CSx will not reaquire satellites after I leave the tunnel. I have to turn the 60CSx receiver off and on to reacquire satellites. I have to repeat the off-on steps when I go through multiple tunnels. That creates multiple track logs instead of one easily-viewable track log. Also, if I am climbing or descending while in a tunnel, auto-calibration does not correct for changes in elevation that occurred while I was in the tunnel. Elevation readings are totally incorrect after tunnel passages. During hikes, I've written down elevation readings that my 60CSx displayed. I also recorded where I was when I jotted down the 60CSx's elevation reading. The 60CSx's elevation readings are always different from the elevation readings that my MapSource software displays in track profile segments for the same locations. I've explained all of the foregoing problems to two Garmin higher-ups. Both assured me that my 60CSx is working properly! I'm new to GPS and Garmin. I guess I'm not yet used to the idea that $1,002 should buy me something that doesn't work as advertised but that may be made to work if Garmin publishes firmware that may work. I'd prefer to deal with manufacturers who work bugs out of their products, with pre-market testing, before taking my hard-earned money. Compasses don't cost $1,002. Compasses work flawlessly. Topo maps work too. Both compasses and topo maps can be trusted to work properly. After repeated and careful testing, I've learned that my 60CSx can't be trusted at all. I hope I've answered your question. TracknQ

8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently. From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.' Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing. Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped. Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx. You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers. I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. Respectfully, TracknQ

Thanks, Jay11. TracknQ

Planewood, Can you please provide a link to the "Trimble Planning software (free)" that you referred to? What's it called? Do you know whether it will connect to the 60CSx via USB? Thanks. TracknQ

Sorry, Delaypat, I won't be able to return my 60CSx to REI if I have your 60CS. Believe me. The 60CSx has lots of problems. I expect that more complaints will appear in this Forum as the initial "Wow - I can pick up satellites inside my house" wears off, and folks start experiencing the 60CSx's horizontal and vertical wanderings and inaccuracies, worthless total ascent readings, barometer bug, etc. TracknQ

You're not alone. I'm unhappy too. I purchased my 60CSx from REI. REI has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I'm seriously thinking about returning my 60CSx and all software to REI. There are many threads with complaints about the 60CSx. Here are two: Version 2.70 Bug 60CSx Elevation (read especially the most recent posts on the bottom of Page 2 and top of Page 3) TracknQ

The last four screen shots in my Post #109 show a 1016 mb ambient pressure and a 1021 mb barometric pressure. These readings occurred simultaneously at 75' above sea level. I thought ambient pressure closely matched barometric pressure near sea level. Can anyone explain the 5 mb difference? If the 60CSx's 'auto-calibration' function is somehow involved in creating barometric pressure, could the 5 mb difference help explain why my altimeter gives elevation readings that 'creep?' TracknQ

I forgot to thank 60csxuser for his very intelligent explanation for my 60CSx's elevation 'creep.' There's an active volcano a few hundred miles from my home. Magma raises and lowers the Earth's crust in Hawaii. The National Geodetic Survey updates its geoid model every 3-4 years, to account for the gravimetric changes that occur here. Unfortunately, Garmin has not added data from recent NGS geoid models to the algorithm in its 2.70 firmware. That alone creates a height bias when auto-cal is on. Moreover, Garmin has not sufficiently revamped the algorithm in its firmware to properly wed the new hypersensitive SiRF chipset with its already-sensitive barosensor. My 60CSx's SiRF chipset and barosensor each add electronic noise. The noise causes readings to fluctuate. The fluctuations cause creeping increases over time, like the increase in total ascent. In addition to noise, ambient pressure constantly changes. Due to noise and pressure changes, I haven't been able to discern a consistent height bias that's caused by the obsolete geoid model in the firmware. It would be nice if I could rely on my 60CSx's elevation readings without guesswork. From my experience in Hawaii so far, that's not been possible, because there have been no constants. I'll try letting my auto-calibrator 'warm up' and 'settle down' before I head out on future walks. Since I get multipath and weak SV signals in my apartment, I'm not sure that pre-walk warm-ups will help that much. Also, if my above hypotheses are correct, I doubt that a warm-up will help. I'll let you know. I'll be in Central Oregon soon. I look forward to testing whether my 60CSx's auto-calibrator will give me more accurate elevations there. (Unfortunately, Central Oregon also has active magma movement.) Jeffrey Friedl may be correct. The altimeter may be virtually useless. I'll start comparing my 60CSx's pressure plots with the PHNL barometer and let you know if I see any consistent patterns. Thanks again 60csxuser and kb9nvh! TracknQ

kbnnvh and 60csxuser, thank you both for your help. You've taught me to look at ambient and barometric pressures more closely. I will start doing that as soon as I figure out how to do so. 60csxuser, thanks for the link to Jeffrey Friedl's Blog. His first and second posts about his 60CS's altimeter were informative. I share his frustration. Also, thanks for the link to the online barometer plot at the Honolulu Airport. That link got me searching for other online barometer plots. The Citizen Weather Observer Program offers free online barometer plots from many stations around the world. Finally, thanks for linking me to the article about the 76S barometer. Before my walks, do I now have to wait outside for an hour, with my 60CSx powered on, while the auto-calibrator 'warms up' and 'settles down?' If, as the article suggests, the barometer is calibrated by the GPS receiver, why did I get a barometer plot with the GPS receiver disabled yesterday? I haven't digested the following data yet. I'd sure appreciate hearing from you or anyone else if any helpful connections are seen. Here's the barometric pressure plot from the PHNL weather station that's 8.6 miles from my home: Here are two screen shots that I saved at 16:15 HST yesterday, after my 60CSx-in-window-ACon-&-off test and a 6.73 mile walk with ACoff. Here's a .pdf file containing track log data from yesterday's walk. The following screen shot shows the profile from yesterday's walk. Notice that there was only a 2-foot differential between my start and end elevations. I recorded the following two screen shots this morning. They show 8-mile and 32-hour elevation plots that were recorded by my 60CSx. (I guess that the -19' elevation suggests a pressure increase. I took the shots in my 8th-floor apartment. Auto-cal was still off.) Finally, here are 24- and 48-hour ambient and barometric pressure plots that I recorded at about 09:30 HST this morning: Thanks again. TracknQ

60csxuser, thank you for your hard work. I'll have a question for you at the end of this post. I, too, have been studying the 60CSx altimeter ever since my first two brand new 60CSx units showed +98,422' and -4,921' elevation readings near sea level. TOTAL ASCENT INACCURACY I reported on total ascent inaccuracies in the Version 2.70 Bug thread. I got total ascent readings that climbed continually when my 60CSx was stationary. I got total ascent increases when I was going downhill. I got very different total ascents when taking walks over the same routes. I've turned my total ascent data field off. It's unreliable and therefore useless to me. ALTIMETER INACCURACY My 60CSx's shows greater elevation variability when auto-cal is enabled than when auto-cal is off. For example, the following profile shows a 29' elevation range with auto-cal off and a 111' elevation range with auto-cal on. My 60CSx was recalibrated to 75' and then left leaning against a window for about 6 hours. My 60CSx gives higher and more inaccurate elevation readings when auto-cal is on than when it's off. For example, my 60CSx showed 13' with auto-cal off and 63' with auto-cal on at a survey-controlled 13' bench mark. (I live in Hawaii, where atmospheric pressure is usually pretty stable.) Also, my 60CSx's elevation readings consistently creep upward or downward over time/distance. The following profile was from a 6.55-mile walk. I recalibrated the altimeter to 14' at the start and began and ended the track log at the same exact point. The elevation crept 80.4' upward. The following table shows elevation 'creep' measured in various recent walks. Always, my 60CSx's altimeter was recalibrated to 14' at the start, and the track log was begun and stopped at the same location outside my home. The elevation creep was always more when auto-cal was enabled than when it was disabled. I have no scientific training. To better understand my 60CSx, I've studied geodesy, how GPS receivers and altimeters work, and weather forecasting. I'll put links to some of the articles that I've read at the end of this post. I've learned much. I now understand that there are many reasons why elevation readings can be twice as inaccurate as EPE (estimated position error) inaccuracies. GPS receivers triangulate signals from satellites to locate X, Y and Z (latitude, longitude and elevation) coordinates on an ellipsoid model of Earth. GPS receivers measure ellipsoid height but not orthometric height or geoid height. The geoid is an equipotential model of the Earth's surface based on 1G gravity. Geoid height is the height of the geoid above or below the ellipsoid. Orthometric height is the elevation of a topographic location above mean sea level. Orthometric height is ellipsoid height minus geoid height. My 60CSx's 2.70 firmware contains a very long algorithm. The algorithm includes an obsolete table that approximates geoid heights. Some of my 60CSx's altitude inaccuracies are due to height biases in the models and the obsolete table. Other factors make my 60CSx's elevation readings inaccurate, including poor satellite geometry, slowing of satellite signals in the ionosphere and troposphere, satellite signals bouncing from objects on Earth (multipath), clock drift, orbital (ephemeris) errors, and electronic noise from sensors in my 60CSx. I believe that the 60CSx is more prone to the inaccuracies I discussed above because Garmin wed its existing hardware/software with SiRF without adequate pre-market testing and without appropriate pre-market revamping of the firmware algorithm. Here are links to some the articles that I read: The GPS Observer: Geoid models GPS Altitude Readout > How Accurate? How reliable are GPS heights? Sources of Error in GPS D.L. Wilson's GPS Accuracy Web Page Converting GPS Height into NAVD88 Elevation with the GEOID96 Geoid Height Model A Discussion of Various Measures of Altitude GPS Errors and Estimating Your Receiver's Accuracy Modeling of GPS Vertical Errors The NGS GEOID Page Barometers for Weather Watching Applying the Barometer to Weather Watching Conversion Units Conversions Also look at Wikipedia's articles about GPS, geodesy, altimeter, atmospheric pressure, etc. 60csxuser, in Post #99, you said: "In the 60CSx, this resetting is according to an internet posting done automatically by using the GPS altitude as an reference and making adjustments every 15 minutes." Can you give me the URL of the Internet posting to which you referred? I don't think GPS altitude has anything to do with barometer plots. Today, I turned my 60CSx's GPS receiver off (Satellite Page > Menu > Use With GPS Off) and leaned the 60CSx against a window. My 60CSx continued to give me barometer plots when no GPS altitude was being obtained. I'd appreciate receiving comments and suggestions. TracknQ

Thanks, 60csxuser. Is there a formula I can use to convert pressure changes to altitude changes? Since total ascent readings have been completely unreliable, I stopped using the total ascent data field on my plots page. I still use the max. elev. data field. In place of total ascent, I alternately use the barometer and ambient pressure data fields. (I'm uncertain whether barometer or ambient pressure readings are more useful.) Aloha, TracknQ

Myotis, A friend of mine owns a 60CSx. He had a similar problem with his maps, which he FIXED. He sent me this email: I kept dropping maps, too. Finally I figured out that the card was moving around in the holder. I put a small piece of sponge rubber over it and no more problems. The batteries hold the sponge in place and the sponge holds the card in place. I hope this helps. TracknQ

Jeff, I use TopoFusion, which cost only $40. It gives you topo, aerial, combo and 3D mapping, plus many valuable features. You can download a trial version. Here's a comparison of mapping softwares and a review of an older version of TopoFusion. MapTech Pro would allow you to use topo and aerial maps. HOWEVER, a friend of mine has a 60CSx and MapTech Pro. He can't upload tracks and waypoints from his GSPr to MapTech Pro via a USB connection. He's complained frequently to MapTech Tech Support reps., who have done nothing to fix the problem. I agree with Miragee that Google Earth is helpful. You can view your track and waypoints in Google Earth directly from MapSource by clicking "View" > "View in Google Earth." TracknQ

BGunner01, This old thread will probably help you fix your USB problem: "60cs Stopped Talking, Any ideeas?" Good luck! TracknQ