Please Review Our Cache

[The Czechs]

Greetings! Recently we placed our first cache and a reviewer, Palmetto, has since decided that it violates the cache saturation rule and should not be allowed. The details on the cache are as follows:

 

::Spoiler in next Sentance for those who may try to find it later::

The cache is located underneath a set of stairs on the property of a small shopping center called ‘Portobello Square’. The shopping center is located next door to a Winn Dixie store which has a cache located in it’s parking lot (on the side opposite where the shopping center, and in turn the cache, sits). First of all I have to say that the spot for the cache is absolutely perfect. It’s tucked right underneath these stairs and will be a good find for anyone who goes to look for it.

 

Palmetto has contacted us informing us that our cache violates the cache saturation rules and that he cannot approve the listing. He says the coordinates indicate that our cache is ~420 feet away from another cache. Upon reviewing the rules, it does say that the .10 mile rule is an arbitrary figure. It also says that the intention is to make it so that a cache cannot be accidentally found while searching for another cache. It is my contention that our cache should be allowed because it is on another piece of property (I think a physical measure would show that it does in fact meet the .1 mile rule) that is so drastically varied from the Winn Dixie cache that it is distinct in it’s own right. The Winn Dixie cache is located on the far right end of the parking lot while ours is located around the side of the building and on the far left. (The cache is not at Winn Dixie but this gives you an idea as relates to our cache’s location with regard to the other cache).

 

Palmetto thinks the cache is located near some power boxes (because of a photo we have listed), but it is not. It is under some stairs adjacent from the power boxes. The stairs exist because the shopping center is actually about 10-15 feet lower than the Winn Dixie (it is in an artificially elevated parking lot).

 

For these reasons I’d like to request approval on this cache. It is our first one, and we will certainly pay more attention to the rules in the future. Although I read through them, I thought the cache would be over .1 miles and because its in an entirely different location and on a different property I figured it would pass the ‘arbitrary’ measure anyway.

 

Please reply here with your thoughts on the cache. Although we understand the need for rules and regulations, the cache is in an entirely different place AND different property than the Winn Dixie cache. We also will make sure to not cut the distance so close on our next caches. It took some time and planning to put this cache in place so it seems like such a waste to take it down.

 

Thanks for your support and (constructive) criticisms. Anyone who lives in the area feel free to stop by and check it out. (Seminole, FL)

Edited April 12, 2006 by The Czechs

[+StarBrand]

Wow a stairway

 

Too close - too much the same - nothing extraordinary about it to make me think it is needed. No physical obstructions in between. No scenic view. No unique container. (not as described anyway)

 

I appreciate your enthusiasim but surely there is a different place.

 

My 2 cents....

Edited April 12, 2006 by StarBrand

[+Airmapper]

He says the coordinates indicate that our cache is ~420 feet away from another cache.

In my opinion, thats not really your biggest concern, although it is valid.

 

Palmetto thinks the cache is located near some power boxes (because of a photo we have listed), but it is not. It is under some stairs adjacent from the power boxes.

 

What is the physical distance from the cache to the power boxes, remember, peoples GPS units are at times going to be off by up to 30+ feet in bad conditions, and it's not a stretch to think they'd look there first.

 

If it were me reviewing, I'd be leaning toward no. In this case I agree with the statement by Starbrand.

 

For these reasons I’d like to request approval on this cache. It is our first one, and we will certainly pay more attention to the rules in the future.

 

I commend you on your persistence, and coming to the forums to discuss your concerns. But in this case, you should give your reviewer more detailed photos if you believe the power boxes are not a concern and to show the area and define the separation between the two caches. Or rather, retrieve this one, and spend your efforts on placing it in a more suitable location.

[+Criminal]

It’s tucked right underneath these stairs and will be a good find for anyone who goes to look for it.

 

I'm confused about this statement. Why is it a 'good' find? I think they'd be more open to fudging the .10 rule if there was something special or unique about the location.

[+4leafclover]

Again...unless you can prove some vast uniqueness in this location, I don't see why the exception should be made.

 

It sucks that this is your first experiance in hiding a cache, but that's almost 100 feet too close. If it were soemthing more like 20 feet, perhaps I'd think differently (as far as "bending the guideline"). However, I think in this case, I tend to agree with the reviewer.

[Keystone]

Looking at the cache pages and the aerial photos, I see nothing physically separating the two caches except for a stairway to get to the Winn Dixie parking lot. Reviewers are happy to make exceptions to the cache saturation guideline for caches that are at the top and bottom of a cliff, opposite sides of a river with no bridge nearby, etc.

 

The new cache's name and description even plays off the name/theme of the existing cache. Had the same owner hidden both, it would've made for a nice two-stage multicache.

 

If this cache had been submitted in my review territory, I would have allowed a slight variance, down to 500 feet apart or so, just enough to account for normal GPS reception error of 30 feet or so, if I could be convinced that the hiding place/container combination was unique and not easily duplicated in a different parking lot. But I did not see anything here along the lines of what the reviewers look for to justify an exception to the guidelines when the caches are just 420 feet apart.

[+Marbig's Woodenheads]

The Czechs. For this cache you must have submitted a report. On this report you must have ticked off as read and understood the guidelines for listing a cache. In this case you would have read

If you have a novel type of cache that "pushes the envelope" to some degree, then it is best to contact your local reviewer and/or Geocaching.com before placing and reporting it on the Geocaching.com web site. The guidelines should address most situations, but Groundspeak administrators and reviewers are always interested in new ideas. If, after exchanging emails with the reviewer, you still feel your cache has been misjudged, your next option is to ask the volunteer to post the cache for all of the reviewers to see in their private discussion forum. Sometimes a second opinion from someone else who has seen a similar situation can help in suggesting a way for the cache to be listed.

So you surely did this then before posting here?

Sorry, I'm being a little cynical I know. It's just that I've recently had a reviewer query my cache and we went through a few compromises by email until we were both satisfied. I felt that the way we handled it went very well. If it hadn't. Then I had certain processes of appeal that would have still maintained the anominity of the reviewer before coming to this forum.

[+Lil Devil]

I'm not seeing any reason to make an exception here.

[+briansnat]

What is so interesting about this Winn Dixie store that you absolutely must have an exception to the guidelines so you can place it there?

 

I've never been to a Winn Dixie, but if they are such fascinating places I'm sure there are others in the area that you can use.

[+Team Neos]

Sorry to say that I have to agree with the others here. With no more information that you have given, it sounds like these are just two nice parking lot hides--which would be OK if they were far enough apart, but ...

 

Other than the examples already given, the reviewers might be more inclined to make an exception if the location were in some way extra special. If one of the caches was near an interesting piece of artwork and the other one was near some historic building, for instance, there might be a good reason to consider an exception.

[+robert]

Walking 400' from one side of the parking lot to another?

 

Pass.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

After reviewing this matter, I must agree with the statements uttered by the other posters here.

[+El Diablo]

What is so interesting about this Winn Dixie store that you absolutely must have an exception to the guidelines so you can place it there?

 

I've never been to a Winn Dixie, but if they are such fascinating places I'm sure there are others in the area that you can use.

 

Just so you'll know Brian, Winn Dixe is a grocery store. Not sure if they get as far north as you are.

 

Back on topic. I don't see why an exception should be made. I would also ask if you had permission to place it there? I can't believe that there are a lot of businesses out there that want people going under ther steps.

 

El Diablo

[+Renegade Knight]

If you had something of merit in that spot I could see an exception. 528' away though is probably something as cool as those stairs like a lamp post or a curb.

 

In order for the 528' rule to be broken, you have to have a good reason. If you like that spot enough to keep a cache there you need to go to plan B.

 

List it on Navicache.com, Terracaching.com, or GPSGames.org. If you want to list it here, you need to move it to 528' away.

[+Renegade Knight]

It's worth noting that people who don't always agree, agree here.

[The Czechs]

Wow Bill, they hate you ... hahaha

[The Czechs]

I guess I figured that since it was our first cache, and it wasn't some horrible offense to the rules (I thought it would certainlly be +.1 miles, and it was in a different parking lot, on different property) that an exception could be made or some leniency given. It is not a phenomenal location, but as the first cache we've hidden it was special to me for that reason. Based on what we're reading here we're going to take it down as it seems we have no choice. Hopefully the next one will meet all the abritrary specifications

Edited April 13, 2006 by The Czechs

[+Wander Lost]

I'm glad you've decided to move the cache on your own.

 

When I place a cache there is usually a reason why I want to bring cachers to that particular spot. The location should be the ultimate reason for the cache IMHO. Some of the best caches I've been to have been fairly easy hides in spectacular locations. I've been back to a couple of them several times just because of the location.

 

I've also done many caches like you describe, both yours and the one at Winn Dixie. I can't tell you how many because frankly they are usually forgotten before I get around to logging them.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Wander Lost

[+Team Teuton]

Yeah, Czech, this is a tough crowd. When you ask for opinions around here, you get them.

 

Nice avatar you have there though.

[+briansnat]

Hopefully the next one will meet all the abritrary specifications.

 

Though the .1 mile distance is arbitrary, the line has to be drawn somewhere. The guidelines were not developed for arbitrary reasons. Each one was developed in response to real problems. If you would like to avoid this in the future, make sure you are familiar with them.

 

The fact that it is your first hide is no reason to waive the guidelines, though I think you might have found a lot more support here if your cache was someplace interesting, rather than being a run of the mill parking lot hide.

[+wimseyguy]

Winn Dixies were so unpopular around here that most of them are now out of business. Of course that opens up a whole 'nother realm of possible hiding places.

 

Welcome to geocaching, thanks for putting out a cache, don't be scared off by this crowd. We're mostly harmless but quite opinionated.

[+Rich the Bushwhacker]

My suggestion would be to drive to the nearest trailhead in a National Forest or State park. Park the car. Get out and walk a mile or so. Compare the experience with the walk under the Winn-Dixie staircase. I find this always cures me of the urge to stick a micro in a strip mall.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Rich the Bushwhacker

[+tozainamboku]

You may want to check out my advice for placing your first cache here.

[Mr.Yuck]

Hopefully the next one will meet all the abritrary specifications.

 

Though the .1 mile distance is arbitrary, the line has to be drawn somewhere. The guidelines were not developed for arbitrary reasons. Each one was developed in response to real problems. If you would like to avoid this in the future, make sure you are familiar with them.

 

The fact that it is your first hide is no reason to waive the guidelines, though I think you might have found a lot more support here if your cache was someplace interesting, rather than being a run of the mill parking lot hide.

 

Lets see here. The OP wants an exception to place a 2nd micro in a the same Winn Dixie Parking lot????

 

Struggling.....Must not flame OP........ I must........ leave..... now.....

[PCFrog]

Wow a stairway

 

Too close - too much the same - nothing extraordinary about it to make me think it is needed. No physical obstructions in between. No scenic view. No unique container. (not as described anyway)

 

I appreciate your enthusiasim but surely there is a different place.

 

My 2 cents....

DITO

[+Team Neos]

Isn't that enough folks? The OP has already expressed their acceptance of the general concensus. No reason to start being ugly, is there?

 

Hey, Czechs, remember you can close this thread now if you are through getting advice.

[gerboa]

Surely there is an opportunity for a lawyer here.

[gerboa]

was the account id based on the punchline of the very old cold war joke about the flleeing, vertically challenged refugee, "can you cache a small Czech?"..just curious.