If It's Commercial Is It Really A Geocoin?

24.7k · March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

4.2k · March 21, 2006

Wassamatta? The other thread not enough fun for ya?

I've said my peace on the subject. Hopefully your thread stays OT.

March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

What parts of geocaching are not commercial?

You pay for a gps - commercial.

You pay to get there - car, bike, on foot, etc - commercial.

You pay for premium memberships (those that have them) - commercial.

You pay for a Travel Bug tag and coin tracking #'s if you release TB/coins - commercial.

You pay for county, city, state, federal parks/land/areas - commercial.

You pay for the T-shirts to promote your club, event, park, whatever - commercial.

Ypu paid for the skirts on the lights to hide the micros - commercial.

You pay for internet use - commercial.

You (or someone) paid for the computer to log your finds - commercial.

You even paid for the satellites - commercial.

The list goes on... the air is still free, but a case can be made that everything else is commercial (including dying). So where is this non commercial caching streak?

T1

1.3k · March 21, 2006

I love my hand made coins from Goldsnoop-PA

nielsenc

Edited March 21, 2006 by nielsenc

March 21, 2006

Would it not be better to ask: if the coin (series) has never been in a cache, is it still a geocoin?

4.8k · March 21, 2006

I'll answer, sort of.... To me a coin made for pure profit with no genuine concern for caching or that has the feeling of being that, it is simply that: A commercial coin, made purely made for profit. Does that make it a "geocoin?" I don't know. It often has the geocaching idea, but if seemingly made for pure personal profit it seems insincere. Some would say no and some would say yes. For me, when I see a coin that seems like a pure profit maker, it says to me that I'm not interested in buying. In the end though I don't define it. I just don't buy when not interested. Insincerity guides that though since insincerity could prevent a buy or trade from me of an otherwise nice looking coin. Telling the difference is often a "I know it when I see it." There is a difference between a coin put out by an organization that might raise some funds for it for their organizational use, to a personal coin sold to cover costs and allow to place some in cahces, to a theme coin that might be nice but I just don't care to buy but made by a cacher, and an ebay only coin that came out of nowhere and seems to have no purpose other than to make pure profit. It is a sliding scale and I act accordingly. But whether they are or or not "geocoins" I don't know. I think the very end of the scale are not in mind though.

2.8k · March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

What parts of geocaching are not commercial?

You pay for a gps - commercial.

You pay to get there - car, bike, on foot, etc - commercial.

You pay for premium memberships (those that have them) - commercial.

You pay for a Travel Bug tag and coin tracking #'s if you release TB/coins - commercial.

You pay for county, city, state, federal parks/land/areas - commercial.

You pay for the T-shirts to promote your club, event, park, whatever - commercial.

Ypu paid for the skirts on the lights to hide the micros - commercial.

You pay for internet use - commercial.

You (or someone) paid for the computer to log your finds - commercial.

You even paid for the satellites - commercial.

The list goes on... the air is still free, but a case can be made that everything else is commercial (including dying). So where is this non commercial caching streak?

T1

You forgot to mention that you pay for the water you drink.

March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

What parts of geocaching are not commercial?

You pay for a gps - commercial.

You pay to get there - car, bike, on foot, etc - commercial.

You pay for premium memberships (those that have them) - commercial.

You pay for a Travel Bug tag and coin tracking #'s if you release TB/coins - commercial.

You pay for county, city, state, federal parks/land/areas - commercial.

You pay for the T-shirts to promote your club, event, park, whatever - commercial.

Ypu paid for the skirts on the lights to hide the micros - commercial.

You pay for internet use - commercial.

You (or someone) paid for the computer to log your finds - commercial.

You even paid for the satellites - commercial.

The list goes on... the air is still free, but a case can be made that everything else is commercial (including dying). So where is this non commercial caching streak?

T1

You forgot to mention that you pay for the water you drink.

I pay sewer fees, so I not only pay for the water I drink, but I pay for the water I pee!

March 21, 2006

I'm not sure I see what "commercial" has to do with whether a coin is a geocoin. Afterall, USA coins are commercial and they are the most prevalent coin out there. Would anyone suggest that it's NOT a geocoin because someone makes a profit on it (gosh, profit in America, imagine).

If a coin is trackable on geocaching.com, it's a geocoin. If a coin is traded or placed by a cacher and represents that cacher in a unique way, it's a geocoin. If a coin has been placed in a reasonable number of caches, it's a geocoin. If a coin commemorates a geocaching event, it's a geocoin.

If a coin is non-trackable, has only been distributed through sale, has not regularly been placed in caches and has but a tenuous connection to geocaching other than that it is intended to skin a few bucks off geocachers, then I'd have to question whether it's a geocoin. The Ebay only coins seem to clearly fit in this category as well as some of the non-trackable coins being sold by other means.

Edited March 21, 2006 by IceCreamMan

March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

You forgot to mention that you pay for the water you drink.

I pay sewer fees, so I not only pay for the water I drink, but I pay for the water I pee!

Septic Tanks rock!!! Not really, but they are free!

March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

You forgot to mention that you pay for the water you drink.

I pay sewer fees, so I not only pay for the water I drink, but I pay for the water I pee!

Septic Tanks rock!!! Not really, but they are free!

Can you send me the name of the guy that put it in for free, I need a new one!!!

1.7k · March 21, 2006

Since geocaching has a non commercial streak I think this is a fair question. If it's commercial is it really a geocoin? What makes it commercial?

Well if it's trackable, imo, your paying for GC.com's advertising so it's automatically commercial.

24.7k · March 21, 2006

...You pay for a gps - commercial.

You pay to get there - car, bike, on foot, etc - commercial.

You pay for premium memberships (those that have them) - commercial.

You pay for a Travel Bug tag and coin tracking #'s if you release TB/coins - commercial.

You pay for county, city, state, federal parks/land/areas - commercial.

You pay for the T-shirts to promote your club, event, park, whatever - commercial.

Ypu paid for the skirts on the lights to hide the micros - commercial.

You pay for internet use - commercial.

You (or someone) paid for the computer to log your finds - commercial.

You even paid for the satellites - commercial....

You would pay a commercial coin maker to make your own coin as well, but that's not the question.

Is your use of the GPS to find a cache commercial?

Is your use of the park to place a cache commercial?

When you wear your T shirt are your charging a sponsorship fee?

I'm not sure I get your point. The mint who makes my coin may be commercial but what I do with that coin is another thing.

March 21, 2006

Septic Tanks rock!!! Not really, but they are free!

Free? Except for when you have to put one in, have it serviced or replace it. Yep, other than that though it's "Free"?

24.7k · March 21, 2006

I'll answer, sort of.... To me a coin made for pure profit with no genuine concern for caching or that has the feeling of being that, it is simply that: A commercial coin, made purely made for profit. Does that make it a "geocoin?" I don't know. It often has the geocaching idea, but if seemingly made for pure personal profit it seems insincere. Some would say no and some would say yes. For me, when I see a coin that seems like a pure profit maker, it says to me that I'm not interested in buying. In the end though I don't define it. I just don't buy when not interested. Insincerity guides that though since insincerity could prevent a buy or trade from me of an otherwise nice looking coin. Telling the difference is often a "I know it when I see it." There is a difference between a coin put out by an organization that might raise some funds for it for their organizational use, to a personal coin sold to cover costs and allow to place some in cahces, to a theme coin that might be nice but I just don't care to buy but made by a cacher, and an ebay only coin that came out of nowhere and seems to have no purpose other than to make pure profit. It is a sliding scale and I act accordingly. But whether they are or or not "geocoins" I don't know. I think the very end of the scale are not in mind though.

Thank you, that's a good post. I've always had 'for cachers, by cachers' in mind when I think of geocoins but where the lines are become very fuzzy when you try to put it into words. Yet in my mind I can point at any one coins and pretty much say "yes" or "no".

24.7k · March 21, 2006

Would it not be better to ask: if the coin (series) has never been in a cache, is it still a geocoin?

I think that's a fair question. In my opinion a signature coin should have as it's intent to be placed in caches by it's owner. To me that's what gives a signature coin it's value. You can find one in the wild. A personal coin made for trade only that never see's a cache isn't a signature coin. It may still be a geocoin but some of the magic of a true signature coin will never exist for that coin.

March 21, 2006

...You pay for a gps - commercial.

You pay to get there - car, bike, on foot, etc - commercial.

You pay for premium memberships (those that have them) - commercial.

You pay for a Travel Bug tag and coin tracking #'s if you release TB/coins - commercial.

You pay for county, city, state, federal parks/land/areas - commercial.

You pay for the T-shirts to promote your club, event, park, whatever - commercial.

Ypu paid for the skirts on the lights to hide the micros - commercial.

You pay for internet use - commercial.

You (or someone) paid for the computer to log your finds - commercial.

You even paid for the satellites - commercial....

You would pay a commercial coin maker to make your own coin as well, but that's not the question.

Is your use of the GPS to find a cache commercial?

Is your use of the park to place a cache commercial?

When you wear your T shirt are your charging a sponsorship fee?

I'm not sure I get your point. The mint who makes my coin may be commercial but what I do with that coin is another thing.

I'm not sure I see the distinction. Once you've paid for a coin is there a cost to place it in a cache or admire it in your collection? No more so than the GPS, park or t-shirt.

I'm not sure why were are discussing "commercial" as though it is some kind of pejorative. Things cost money. Someone pays for the parks. Is taking money from taxpayers at the point of a gun "non-commercial" and therefore "good", while passing costs on to the folks enjoying the benefits is "commercial" and therefore bad or otherwise unseemly?

2.1k · March 21, 2006

I enjoyed reading this thread more than the other geocoin-whining threads of late.

I made both of the geocoins I produced to travel through geocaches, and with geocaching in mind, but the money involved, mine and other peoples', has gotten me thinking about the next geocoin I'm going to be making.

I've got a flat piece of soapstone, a dremel tool with too many bits, and a couple of pounds of tin and pewter. Earlier this year, I fooled around with making personal geocoins by dremel-ing out a negative to fill with molten metal, and made a couple (Flask has one). It was pretty easy.

I could make 100 of these in a morning, after making a mold that I like, and stamp numbers or initials onto the back of them before dropping them into caches or trading with geo-friends.

To re-rail this post back on-topic...

I think that a geocoin should be developed with the goal of being put into geocaches. I think that they should have something to do with geocaching.

A tracking number does not make it a geocoin to anyone except gc.com...who, ICBA, encouraged/fostered/fathered the current trend in geocoin originality and creativity by requiring $1.50 for each and every coin that anybody wants to sell here, which by necessity pushes financial concerns to the front of the line in terms of considerations when planning a geocoin.

just my $0.02

Jamie

March 21, 2006

A tracking number does not make it a geocoin to anyone except gc.com...who, ICBA, encouraged/fostered/fathered the current trend in geocoin originality and creativity by requiring $1.50 for each and every coin that anybody wants to sell here, which by necessity pushes financial concerns to the front of the line in terms of considerations when planning a geocoin.

just my $0.02

Jamie

Amen! Very well stated.

Who would have thought that the sale of tracking numbers would have lead to the bastardization of geocoins? IMHO geocoins are first and foremost signature items. Tracking numbers have nothing to do with them.

I would classify a geocoin as a personal (signature item) coin only. Geocoins are never sold! Yes, I am suggesting that most of the folks out there who are selling their so-called “personal coins” are really selling glorified travelbugs. The wooden nickels and tokens out there are more what I would classify as geocoins and opposed to the things that are commonly sold in this forum.

24.7k · March 21, 2006

....I'm not sure I see the distinction. Once you've paid for a coin is there a cost to place it in a cache or admire it in your collection? No more so than the GPS, park or t-shirt.

I'm not sure why were are discussing "commercial" as though it is some kind of pejorative. Things cost money. Someone pays for the parks. Is taking money from taxpayers at the point of a gun "non-commercial" and therefore "good", while passing costs on to the folks enjoying the benefits is "commercial" and therefore bad or otherwise unseemly?

The distinction is in the question that I origially asked. Not parks, or GPS. Put another way if the primary intent of a geocoin is to make money does that fly in the face of what geocaching is about or at least what we (as a whole) would like it to be, and so it's not really a geocoin?

Another way to look at it. If you made the IceCreamMan coin and I made the RK coin and mine was only placed in caches and wasn't sold and yours had 500 sold which either funded the 100LE you kept or put a few c notes in your pocket does one have more intrinsic value in geocaching than the other?

It may not be possible to fully separate commercial from non commercial in coins, but there has to be a line between what is and isn't a geocoin, if for no other reason than collectors need to know. The line should be one that is fairly universally agreed on. It's not as easy as collecting stamps from the USA. There the line is fairly cut and dry.

March 21, 2006

I think if it has been in a cache than it's a geocoin.

If not it's not.

Than the line gets real gray because an eBay un-activated coin is not a geocoin until it's activated and placed in a cache. Same coin, different state or time in its life.

So you really got to get your noodle around the idea that a new coin is not a geocoin until it is placed in service.

March 21, 2006

If you made the IceCreamMan coin and I made the RK coin and mine was only placed in caches and wasn't sold and yours had 500 sold which either funded the 100LE you kept or put a few c notes in your pocket does one have more intrinsic value in geocaching than the other?

Just to clarify. The IceCreamMan coin has NOT been sold and there were only 200 made. They have been used only for trade, given to friends on the cache trail and placed in caches, both activated and unactivated (and I'm running out of them). I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my coin.

1.4k · March 22, 2006

<rant>

Parts of this thread were confusing, since services from tax $ and non-profit organizations (costs of the satellites, park fees) aren't considered "commercial," at least the way I was taught. :huh:

If the mere act of using money is the definition of commercialism/capitalism, then why are people wasting so much time promoting it? (Even communist countries use money, so they are CAPITALIST! :anibad: )

</rant>

Like the hastily-formed companies with pipe-dream business models during the dot-com era, it's not difficult to "feel it" when someone is merely jumping the bandwagon for a quick $, which is my interpretation of Renegade Knight's definition of "commercial."

Too bad there's not a mechanism for "short-selling" Geocoins - I'm willing to wait for the Dot Coin Crash. :laughing:

24.7k · March 22, 2006

If you made the IceCreamMan coin and I made the RK coin and mine was only placed in caches and wasn't sold and yours had 500 sold which either funded the 100LE you kept or put a few c notes in your pocket does one have more intrinsic value in geocaching than the other?

Just to clarify. The IceCreamMan coin has NOT been sold and there were only 200 made. They have been used only for trade, given to friends on the cache trail and placed in caches, both activated and unactivated (and I'm running out of them). I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my coin.

Sorry about that. I was trying to create an example and wasn't aware of your coin. However I like your clarification.

1k · March 22, 2006

Another way to look at it. If you made the IceCreamMan coin and I made the RK coin and mine was only placed in caches and wasn't sold and yours had 500 sold which either funded the 100LE you kept or put a few c notes in your pocket does one have more intrinsic value in geocaching than the other?

Of course most everyone here already knows my opinion on it.... I place more value to a coin that is primarily placed into caches by the creator. Even more so if it is ONLY placed in caches. 400 sold and 100 kept by the creator to place into caches/trade has much less intrinsic geocaching value than 200 made for caches/trades and not sold.

8.1k · March 23, 2006

I read this thread three times before I gathered my thoughts to post. And for me the choice is personal and differs from everyone else. I find it difficult to identify what I consider commercial but can immediately tell by looking at a persons coin, the phrasing.

I feel guilty posting a while ago if anyone was insterested in my personal coin and I sold some to defray my costs of minting it. (prices have since come way down). so it is slighty hypocritical for me to stand up and point at specific examples of commercialism.

But there are two general commerical (for profit) concepts I have noticed:

1. one person putting one a whole slew of different coins

2. people charging more than $5 for a coin unless it is a charitable benefit (and I know my added $3 is a donation)

I have also come to two conclusions:

1. if i deem it commercial I don't buy it

2. if it isn't related closely to geocaching I don't buy it

It's a personal choice, but I have grown weary of coins, the lustre has passed me by.

(steps down from soap box and returns to reading posts).

:tired:

Mark

Avroair

If It's Commercial Is It Really A Geocoin?

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