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2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

Contest Input, Please.

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Prizes have arrived! A Garmin E-trex yellow & a JWIN 4.2 mega-pixel digital camera! We're working on getting a third prize & will let you know what it is when we get it. Prizes will be awarded according to the winners choices. 1st Place = 1st choice, etc.

 

We thought for this contest we should have a simple scoring method and NOT include intersection stations. Due to the dispersion of older benchmarks we thought having a breakdown by decades would help keep the race closer.

 

The scoring Could be as follows:

 

1930 - 1949 monument dates worth 1 point

1910 - 1929 " " " 2 points

1900 - 1909 " " " 3 points

Pre-1900 " " " 4 points

 

All benchmarks that you claim must NOT have been found by you prior to the start of this contest!

 

Of course you will need to log it with Photos and GPSr (preferably showing a date?).

 

What other rules might be needed?

 

When to start the contest? How about April 2nd for the start? Ending June 1st or July 1st?

 

A volunteer to keep the scoreboard would be nice, so we can participate in this contest. Any takers? We wouldn't mind if they also participated in the contest, we just think there are others who could keep score better than we could.

 

Any other suggestions or comments?

 

 

John & Shirley

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Interestinging concept. We won't get many points around here - the really old ones just don't exist anymore! But for us, the fun is in the hunt.

 

May be interested in the score keeping. If you still need someone drop me an email and we can discuss it at astrod-team[at]tds[dot]net

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Interestinging concept. We won't get many points around here - the really old ones just don't exist anymore! But for us, the fun is in the hunt.

 

May be interested in the score keeping. If you still need someone drop me an email and we can discuss it at astrod-team[at]tds[dot]net

 

There are about 70 marks from 1950 and earlier listed for Brown county. There might be enough in the nearby counties to help keep you in the running, if you're interested in trying.

 

For us, it looks like we will be doing some traveling to get to the old ones we haven't previously found. As in 100 miles or more.

 

But you're right, the fun is in the hunt.

 

E-mail on the way.

 

 

John

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If I were setting up the contest, I would score by the number of years since previously logged as found or monumented. That has a lot more to do with the difficulty than the monumenting date. And it has something to do with the worth of a new report in capturing information.

 

A mark from the 1800's and logged found last year and should in most cases be an easy find so I'd give 1 point year for it. One from 1976 that has no logs might be a real challenge so I'd give 30 point years.

 

But it would mean that people in a well-searched area would be at a considerable disadvantage relative to those working in more isolated areas.

 

I'm not going to administer the contest, so I won't tell anyone another set of rules are wrong.

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Sounds likea fun and challenging contest! You could always throw in a bonus point for 'First find since monumented'.

 

Sounds good Harry, I think for that aspect we will stick with just the recovery logs on GC (even if they are "old" datasheets). This would include any NGS logs listed on the GC datasheet.

 

We were asked if contestants could find benchmarks logged by others? Yes, as long as they themselves have not filed a recovery on that particular benchmark.

 

 

Bill93, We tried to come up with a scoring system that would be reasonably fair to all areas of the country. Since we will only be using the GC logs for scoring, it probably will not be of much use to the pros, unless they check in here, to see if there are any new logs.

 

Our scorekeeper has suggested we have people sign up before the contest so it will be easier for her to keep track of the recoveries. This sounds acceptable to us. She said people can be added later, but it is easier to do it from the start.

 

AstroD-Team has accepted our plea for help with the score keeping. Thank you! :laughing:

 

John & Shirley

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Sounds interesting. May have to give this a try. Not sure how many old marks out here in SoCal. Lots of marks, but so many are new ones...

 

EDIT: Disregard above. I had no idea... Some work with GSAK (LOVE that program!), and my databases came up with 1035 benchmarks placed 1949 or prior, with 25 miles of my house. Also 3099 with 50 miles. These are in parts of 4 different counties. YIKES! Quite a few will be gone, but still..... Someone want to come out here to help me?

Edited by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

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Sounds cool, I might be interested, there are a lot of marks in the area, and I finally have a digital camera to take the photos with.

 

The majority of BM's in my area were set around 1950 or 1952, will these still count as 1 point, or not at all?

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Sounds cool, I might be interested, there are a lot of marks in the area, and I finally have a digital camera to take the photos with.

 

The majority of BM's in my area were set around 1950 or 1952, will these still count as 1 point, or not at all?

 

The final decision hasn't been made on that question, that is why this thread exists.

 

It is good that you got a camera.

 

Shirley~

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Browsing potentials, I found quite a few in this area that have a placed date (GSAK) or the first monumented data (on the NGS datasheet) of of "Unknown" or "UNK". Actually, GSAK seems to put in the date of the GPX file creation. Maybe this has been covered in past contest rules - what is the date to use then? Use the first documented date on the datasheet (likely the next "Monumented" date, or maybe the first recovery date)? Earliest date we can find on the datasheet?

Edited by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

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Browsing potentials, I found quite a few in this area that have a placed date (GSAK) or the first monumented data (on the NGS datasheet) of of "Unknown" or "UNK". Actually, GSAK seems to put in the date of the GPX file creation. Maybe this has been covered in past contest rules - what is the date to use then? Use the first documented date on the datasheet (likely the next "Monumented" date, or maybe the first recovery date)? Earliest date we can find on the datasheet?

 

If the benchmark is a disk, then the date stamped on the disk is the date it was monumented, otherwise it is the first log date on the datasheet. For the purpose of this contest, you will need to log it on GC.com and the 1st "official" log/recovery note will have to be the monument date.

 

John

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This sounds like fun, I looked at the benchmarks in my area last week out of curruiosity, there are alot.

 

I'm confused on the scoring, are you going to it as a over all total?

 

If 10 cachers find the same BM. do they all get pionts? Are the points are based on when the BM was placed, or last logged? I think you could have it as an overall, total reguardless of how many logs a placed for one BM. The winners can be the ones with the most pionts not the most BMs, or vice versa.

 

I might be interested in doing this, need to clearify the rules.

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This sounds like fun, I looked at the benchmarks in my area last week out of curruiosity, there are alot.

 

I'm confused on the scoring, are you going to it as a over all total?

 

If 10 cachers find the same BM. do they all get pionts? Are the points are based on when the BM was placed, or last logged? I think you could have it as an overall, total reguardless of how many logs a placed for one BM. The winners can be the ones with the most pionts not the most BMs, or vice versa.

 

I might be interested in doing this, need to clearify the rules.

 

No, they all get Points. ;)

Points are based on when the benchmark was monumented.

If you have points then it would be logical to use them for scorekeeping, right?

 

1930 - 1949 monument dates worth 1 point per benchmark found

1910 - 1929 " " " 2 points per benchmark found

1900 - 1909 " " " 3 points per benchmark found

Pre-1900 " " " 4 points per benchmark found

 

 

John

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Welcome to benchmark hunting Everyone,

 

Yes to this question.

 

Does that mean there would no points for benchmarks monumented after 1949?

 

This contest is going to be about finding the older benchmarks - disks, chiseled squares/crosses/ect. or rivits, nails with washers in blazes in trees and even rock cairns. If they are in the GC database...we will find them. :lol:

 

AstroD-team will keep a running tally and about once a week she will post how many points everyone has to date. The one with the most points of course will have first choice of which prize they want.

 

If anyone else has any ideas of how the scoring or rules might be better...please let us know.

 

Around the first of March we will start a new thread and post the finalized rules and scoring. Then we will need everyone who is going to participate, to sign up in that thread so that AstroD-team can get her database set up before we start the contest.

 

Happy Hunting everyone!

 

Shirley~

Edited by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

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I think this is a fun idea. I never seem to take benchmark information with me when we go caching. Just happen to luck up on finding them and then searching nearest benchmark from a cache to log it.

 

I would participate in this contest. Don't know how well I could do in my area, considering most of the benchmarks are on active RR tracks or have been destroyed due to road construction, but would love to see all the pictures.

 

When the new thread is started, is it possible to post in this thread that the new topic is up and running so that I may place it on my notify list also?

 

Have a great day,

Katy

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Sounds like a fun contest.

 

But I see one problem, at least in my area (New York City). It seems that many of the older marks set by various city agencies were taken into the NGS network and database in the 50s. A good example is the carved "T" on the base of the Public Library's north Lion, KU1448,. Ther log history reads as follows:

 

KU1448_MARKER: Z = SEE DESCRIPTION

KU1448_SETTING: 30 = SET IN A LIGHT STRUCTURE

KU1448_SP_SET: LION BASE

KU1448_STABILITY: D = MARK OF QUESTIONABLE OR UNKNOWN STABILITY

KU1448_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS NOT SUITABLE FOR

KU1448+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - August 12, 2002

KU1448

KU1448 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

KU1448 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED NYBE+A

KU1448 HISTORY - 1952 GOOD NGS

KU1448 HISTORY - 20020812 GOOD USPSQD

(I love that "SP_SET: LION BASE", don't you).

 

Now the history gives "UNK" for the monumented date. Of course it wasn't really unknown, the surveyors in 1952 had to have the documentation of the original survey, or they would never have found the mark. That particular documentation is readily available today, and the date was 1909-1913, probably 1909 (since the report says all the marks were set first, before the level lines were run).

 

This is just one example of the problem.

 

I'm not sure I'm suggesting a foolproof way around this, but in some of these cases with some work, the original dates can be arrived at (such as the above example), in others there's probably no way.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Sounds like a fun contest.

 

But I see one problem, at least in my area (New York City). It seems that many of the older marks set by various city agencies were taken into the NGS network and database in the 50s. A good example is the carved "T" on the base of the Public Library's north Lion, KU1448,. Ther log history reads as follows:

 

KU1448_MARKER: Z = SEE DESCRIPTION

KU1448_SETTING: 30 = SET IN A LIGHT STRUCTURE

KU1448_SP_SET: LION BASE

KU1448_STABILITY: D = MARK OF QUESTIONABLE OR UNKNOWN STABILITY

KU1448_SATELLITE: THE SITE LOCATION WAS REPORTED AS NOT SUITABLE FOR

KU1448+SATELLITE: SATELLITE OBSERVATIONS - August 12, 2002

KU1448

KU1448 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

KU1448 HISTORY - UNK MONUMENTED NYBE+A

KU1448 HISTORY - 1952 GOOD NGS

KU1448 HISTORY - 20020812 GOOD USPSQD

(I love that "SP_SET: LION BASE", don't you).

 

Now the history gives "UNK" for the monumented date. Of course it wasn't really unknown, the surveyors in 1952 had to have the documentation of the original survey, or they would never have found the mark. That particular documentation is readily available today, and the date was 1909-1913, probably 1909 (since the report says all the marks were set first, before the level lines were run).

 

This is just one example of the problem.

 

I'm not sure I'm suggesting a foolproof way around this, but in some of these cases with some work, the original dates can be arrived at (such as the above example), in others there's probably no way.

 

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

Great thoughts...

 

This is one point that John and I have talked about...we did not decide totally on this issue. We had considered that the next 'official record date' could be the alternate monumented date (actually it would have been the date that it was accepted into the NGS database).

 

Where did you come up with the documentation? and would your source hold up for any others in the nation? If we have to research for everyone of these - and there are quite a few...it would take a lot of time. I guess anyone that would want to use a certain disk with Monumented = Unk and not accept the next 'official recovery note'....they would be responsible for hunting up that info to call it a find.

 

I will talk it over with John when he gets home today and see what he thinks and then he will post our thoughts for others to digest and offer other suggestions.

 

Yes...he does work, so we can go play. :lol:

 

Shirley~

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Great thoughts...

 

This is one point that John and I have talked about...we did not decide totally on this issue. We had considered that the next 'official record date' could be the alternate monumented date (actually it would have been the date that it was accepted into the NGS database).

 

Where did you come up with the documentation? and would your source hold up for any others in the nation? If we have to research for everyone of these - and there are quite a few...it would take a lot of time. I guess anyone that would want to use a certain disk with Monumented = Unk and not accept the next 'official recovery note'....they would be responsible for hunting up that info to call it a find.

 

I will talk it over with John when he gets home today and see what he thinks and then he will post our thoughts for others to digest and offer other suggestions.

 

Yes...he does work, so we can go play. :laughing:

 

Shirley~

The source for that particular mark is a report published in 1914 and available in the Library. Actually I got wind if the book from several recoveries logged to the NGS database that quoted the source (see the NGS sheets for KV0579 and KV0580). It is titled Precise Leveling in New York City, executed 1909-1914. Like a lot of records in cities, there's a lot of stuff there, but it's often hard to find.

 

I guess I wasn't trying to say these things are easy to find, often times they are next to impossible. but when something is available and someone goes to the trouble of tracking it down, they should perhaps get some credit.

 

Hey! Maybe a new contest: "Most Obscure Benchmark Documentation" :laughing:

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I second Papa-Bear. Situation in my area is similar, as I mentioned in my previous post. There are some really nice marks out here from the late 1800's that are first monumented UNK then with a first official find in the 1950's.

 

I agree with Shirley, that if we want to go for those, can find them, and can find adequate documentation (local gov't survey database, library, etc.), then they could count. Such documentation would need to be submitted to the scorekeepers (scanned copy posted or emailed, etc.)

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Forgive me if It has already been addressed, but what about BM's that have been visited by the NGS or other agencies after their setting? Does this affect the score, or disqualify them from the contest?

 

For Example:

Monumented in 1935

Visited by NGS 1952

Surveyor Report 1993

How would such a BM be considered?

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Forgive me if It has already been addressed, but what about BM's that have been visited by the NGS or other agencies after their setting? Does this affect the score, or disqualify them from the contest?

 

For Example:

Monumented in 1935

Visited by NGS 1952

Surveyor Report 1993

How would such a BM be considered?

 

This example would definitely count. The "Monumented" date is the one we are after. If it has been found/logged either by NGS, other agencies of even by our own GC logs, you will be able to get your find and whatever point value it is. It doesn't matter if these have been logged by GC fellow hunters before or not. Just not by you in a previous log.

 

The special one (one that we had not thought of but was brought up by Harry Dolphin) we were considering, was a FTF (First To Find) since it was monumented, so only one GC hunter would get to claim this one. We will probably include this one when we start the new thread that will state the exact rules and what everything is worth in points.

 

This is what we feel makes this contest a level playing field for the new hunters, as the old timers (that includes us 2oldfarts) will have to scramble and go further afield to find those elusive older marks that we haven't found/logged before. This is going to be a tough go for everyone....not an easy walk in the park. That is what will make it lots of fun!

 

As a matter of fact...I don't know if the hunters like Seventhings or Me and Bucky or any of the top 10 finders/loggers, will be able to find very many others or will want to, just because of the distance that they will have to go to be able to get into areas that they haven't already covered. It might be a bad contest for them...I am sorry. :laughing::laughing:

But, I hope, that the top finders will still want to try and get into this contest too. We did not mean to exclude anyone for any reason. The more people playing - the more fun!

 

Shirley~

 

Ooops, sorry - I got a little long on that response...

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After discussing the suggestions so far, we have come up with a "tentative" list of rules for the contest.

 

1) Only benchmarks monumented before 1960 are eligible (changed from 1950). No intersection stations allowed.

 

2) You can log only benchmarks that YOU had not found previously. It doesn't matter if anyone else has logged it as long as you have not logged it.

 

3) For those benchmarks that have "UNK" as the monument date, either the date on the disk, or if other than a disk the 1st "Official Log" will be considered the monument date. This is to keep the paperwork to a minimum for our scorekeeper. Only the benchmark pages on GC.com will be used, even though they are several years old.

 

4) The scoring currently will be as follows:

 

monumented after 1959 = 0 points, but fun for finding anyways.

monumented 1930 - 1959 = 1 point

monumented 1910 - 1929 = 2 points

monumented 1900 - 1909 = 3 points

monumented pre-1900 = 4 points

 

5) First to Recover bonus = 2X regular points for that age group. To qualify for the first to recover, you must be the only one to have logged a recovery for that benchmark, including any "Official Recovery" logs. Again, based on only the GC.com benchmark pages.

 

6) Contest to run from April 2nd to July 31st.

 

7) Sign up will be from when rules are declared "Official" to April 15th.

 

Thank you for your input. We have considered all that has been offered thus far. If there is something we have missed or something you'd like us to consider, please post it here.

 

 

John & Shirley

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I be interested in doing this since I didn't do the last contest. With the one month + lag time till the contest starts won't some people possible find BM's before the start of the contest and wait to log them till it starts (revisit them)? Is this to be expected within the framework of the rules and fair practice or cheating?

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I be interested in doing this since I didn't do the last contest. With the one month + lag time till the contest starts won't some people possible find BM's before the start of the contest and wait to log them till it starts (revisit them)? Is this to be expected within the framework of the rules and fair practice or cheating?

 

It would be nice to think that the contestants will use GSAK to get a list of benchmarks to find, but wait until the contest actually starts before going out to find them. Not much can be done to prevent it, but it shows a lack of sportsmanship to actually pre-find the benchmarks. We chose the start date to hopefully give the "Northern" benchmark hunters a fair shot at the prizes. Let's hope that others will be fair about the contest.

 

John

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Will GSAK sort the BM's by date monumented, and do you need to be a PM to do it?

 

Yes GSAK will sort by date monumented - note GSAK uses the current date for monument dates listed as "UNK".

 

You get the county downloads from the NGS site and run it through BMGPX and then put it in GSAK. All links are in the Read Me First thread at the top of the page.

 

After sorting by GSAK, check to be sure it is listed on GC.com, for use in the contest.

 

John

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Sounds like fun...would you PM/email please when you decide on rules/dates?

 

uh-oh...

 

sounds like some competition from my area

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Will GSAK sort the BM's by date monumented, and do you need to be a PM to do it?

 

Yes GSAK will sort by date monumented - note GSAK uses the current date for monument dates listed as "UNK".

 

I was able to slog thru the "UNK" ones in one of "my" counties so far, and update those that qualify based on a recovery within the allowed period. Got old. Sure would be nice if someone (Parkrrrr?) could improve BMGPX a little to look past the first UNK to pickup the next monumented or recovered date (if any). I'd do it if I was a whole lot better in C-plus (the source code is on parkrrr's site). Any takers? Anyone know Parkrrr well enough to twist his arm?

 

P.S. Rules look good to me! Nice job. One question: pic with date on GPS display with mark required? Sometimes the sun angles, shadows, etc. make it tough....

Edited by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

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P.S. Rules look good to me! Nice job. One question: pic with date on GPS display with mark required? Sometimes the sun angles, shadows, etc. make it tough....

 

Don't know yet...We haven't decided if the logs on GC are enough or is more required.

 

John

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Just a thought......

When the rules are established.

 

What about making a Benchmark geocoin?

Make an amount so that all contestants get a chance to get one.

I am sure we can all get together to get this done.

Or after the (LE..Limited Edition Contestant) make enough Regular to offer to the rest of the coin collectors.

 

Just a thought with the Benchmark coin club.

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There is another option to using GSAK to get the info for your area. I've put together Excel spreadsheets for each state that contains pertinent information for each PID, including County name, first monumented date (ALL_REC_DATE) and other logged dates. The page is here.

 

Select all of the columns, and do a sort, first by the county column and then by the all rec date column, or just by date.

 

Also, as with the last contest, will contestants need to "time-stamp" their finds with the GPS unit?

 

As a note, there are a fair number of indoor benchmarks in this time frame; they might prove interesting targets.

Edited by BuckBrooke

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Here is an image for one side.

What do ya think?

The numbers could be given in order as

0001 as 1st place.

0002 as 2nd place

3.0003

4.0004

 

I think it would bring more people to benchmarking.

103132035_45697179c5_o.jpg

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I be interested in doing this since I didn't do the last contest. With the one month + lag time till the contest starts won't some people possible find BM's before the start of the contest and wait to log them till it starts (revisit them)? Is this to be expected within the framework of the rules and fair practice or cheating?

 

It would be nice to think that the contestants will use GSAK to get a list of benchmarks to find, but wait until the contest actually starts before going out to find them. Not much can be done to prevent it, but it shows a lack of sportsmanship to actually pre-find the benchmarks. We chose the start date to hopefully give the "Northern" benchmark hunters a fair shot at the prizes. Let's hope that others will be fair about the contest.

 

John

 

 

How to prevent contestants from 'scouting' an area ahead of time...

 

We could have the scoring go every other decade, as in 1950-1959=1pt; 1940-1949=0pts;1930-1939=2pts;1920-1929=0pts, etc.

 

Or reverse the decades as in 1950-1959=0pts;1940-1949=1pt;1930-1939=2pts;1920-1929=0pts, etc.

 

And then wait to decide which scoring system to use until the day before the contest starts. This would mean, if you pre-found some disks and we choose the alternate scoring you would end up getting a lot of zero points.

 

Or do we just trust our fellow benchmarkers to be fair and honest and only get their list from GSAK ready?

 

Suggestions? Recommendations? Don't worry, be happy?

 

 

John

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Here is an image for one side.

What do ya think?

The numbers could be given in order as

0001 as 1st place.

0002 as 2nd place

3.0003

4.0004

 

I think it would bring more people to benchmarking.

103132035_45697179c5_o.jpg

 

The coin looks good.

 

But the question is "Who will have to pay for all these coins?".

 

Do we want the winners (1st, 2nd & 3rd) to have to buy their coins?

 

John

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We are working out the details on that right now.

No the winners should not have to buy their coins.

 

We will have to keep a limited participant rule though on the geocoins.

 

We will work that out.

2Oldfarts, E-mail me on the details.

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How to prevent contestants from 'scouting' an area ahead of time...

 

We could have the scoring go every other decade, as in 1950-1959=1pt; 1940-1949=0pts;1930-1939=2pts;1920-1929=0pts, etc.

 

Or reverse the decades as in 1950-1959=0pts;1940-1949=1pt;1930-1939=2pts;1920-1929=0pts, etc.

 

And then wait to decide which scoring system to use until the day before the contest starts. This would mean, if you pre-found some disks and we choose the alternate scoring you would end up getting a lot of zero points.

 

Or do we just trust our fellow benchmarkers to be fair and honest and only get their list from GSAK ready?

 

Suggestions? Recommendations? Don't worry, be happy?

 

John

 

Don't worry, be happy. :laughing:

 

I think the older marks are inherently more "valuable" and challenging, and deserve more credit (points). I'll get some lists ready, but I wouldn't start ahead of time. It's just for fun anyway. If I really wanted a Garmin yellow, I could buy one. The winner will likely have spent more on just gas.

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I have changed it up a little.

The hole is for a tag or chain so you would not have to drill a hole in it and make it less valuable.

Of course the station means your place in the contest for the first X number.

No. would be the tracking number.Yes they would be trackable!

 

Now if I could just remember the name of this Old U S COAST & GEODETIC SURVEY.

AND STATE SURVEY.

 

What do you think of the

U.S. Geocaching Benchmarking Quest Contest 2006?

 

103182783_39d9b252df_o.jpg

 

Here is one we could do with glow in the dark.

103182786_6deb0decf0_o.jpg

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I think the older marks are inherently more "valuable" and challenging, and deserve more credit (points). I'll get some lists ready, but I wouldn't start ahead of time. It's just for fun anyway. If I really wanted a Garmin yellow, I could buy one. The winner will likely have spent more on just gas.

 

Been there. Done that. Had a great time! :laughing:

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Well, I have 3 counties of data loaded, and looked at them in watcher. (I'm now d-loading GSAK.) If I ask a question that's already been discussed, sorry, the threads getting long and I might miss something. (Just poke me in the ribs and I'll go look for it.)

 

1st Question: Are triangulation stations included? I think I seen that marks like towers, spires, and tanks have been excluded.

 

2nd Question: What is the verdict on RM's. If they have a seperate PID, can they be treated as individual marks?

 

3rd: Question: Is the scorekeeper going to have a constant update of the standings, or do you just find out who won at the end of the contest?

 

This is a cool contest, I've been planning to look for the BM's in my area anyway, this gives me a additional reason to. :D I've already found many interesting datasheets, one is mounted on a old RR tunnel I didn't even know about in my area.

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To clarify the answer to #3 - The scorekeeper is going to keep a running tally by what has been posted in the 'as yet to be started' logging thread. So, it all depends on how many have been found and posted to the logging thread. Maybe she will post the currant standings once a week or so. This all depends on how many people are in the contest and the amount of finds we all post.

 

So, yes, you will see updates every so often and no, you will not have to wait until the end. :D

 

Shirley~

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I do believe it ended up being 5 participants. Harry Dolphin won that contest with a lot of hard work and gasoline!

 

We had several who wanted to get into it, but for varied reasons, just could not. So, we offer this contest at a better time of year, and past the cold & flu season. Hopefully, those who missed out will be able to play in this one, and those who did not know about it, will be better informed.

 

Also, we feel better about playing in this one, since we have a score keeper, so watch out everyone - the 2oldfarts are going to be a looking and a logging. :)

 

Long answer for a short question...

 

Shirley~

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