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Obnoxious Tb Log


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Hmm... The sequence of events: Someone picked up Stickmonkey's TB, and made a political comment about it in the log. Perhaps a bit unusual. Did he lie? No. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Boy Scouts are homophobic, but they are permitted to be so, as a private organization.

One cannot expect everyone to share their views. There are certainly caches that I will not hunt because of my views, and I am sure that there are TBs out there that I will not go anywhere near. I have my prerogatives, as you have yours.

Stickmonkey then deleted the log. Did he ask first if the bug finder might tone down the rhetoric? Not that I've seen. "I don't like what you are saying, whether it be true or not, so I'm deleting your log." Happens more often than one would like to admit.

That was certainly not the most auspicious way to insure the longevity of a Travel Bug. This should be in the TB Longevity Clinic: Do not insult the person holding your travel bug, until after they have dropped it off. And what have we taught the young boys of Pack 563? Insulting those who disagree with us is a good way to gt a TB moved along? We are right, and everyone else is wrong? The truth hurts?

"Too bad for the kids." I'll agree with this statement. Teach the fine young lads manners. Whether you like it or not, geocaching is a microcosm of society.

 

I kind of agree with Harry D. It wasn't a big deal until it was made a big deal and although I agreed with the big deal, Harry's post knocked some sense into me because his post makes sense. It may have been better to teach the kids that sometimes people may feel strongly about something, and that doesn't make it right or wrong. This goes for ALL sides of this party.

 

Even though the finder of the TB was out of line, teaching 10 kids self control (by teaching them it's ok to observe the situation (or passivly control)) might have been more rewarding than the outcome at hand.

 

I hope that made sense. I sometimes find it hard to express my thoughts with my keyboard. :laughing:

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StickMonkey you did the right thing by archiving this bug. One minute GeoMaine wants to release the bug, the next minute you are getting an e-mail comparing the BSA to the Nazi's. As a Jew I hate that type of comparison because its never even remotely close. Its unfortunate that not everyone understands that the BSA policy was determined at the national level and not by your local troop.

 

Let me know if you want a new TB tag for your troop. My Grandfather was a scoutmaster and I'm sure Geocaching would have been something he would have done with his troop.

Edited by magellan315
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There is no lesson to be taught for the boys in all this.

 

All they see is that there are mean people in the world that want to steal your TB's. If anyone thinks this stunt will teach 10 yr olds tolerenace of people who are different, they are wrong. Nope it taught them that adults can be mean and it is ok to steal others TB's since no action is being taken to hold the gulity party accountable.

 

I have a troop of 9 yr old Girls Scouts and they do not know what polical stance GSUSA takes on things, they just know we sell cookies, make crafts at meetings and earn Try-Its by doing fun things. Simple like it should be at that age.

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1 vote to go OT here.

 

Our kids have enough peer and media influences pushing them to grow up too fast without a fellow geocacher tossing more adult opinions onto them, without parental knowledge or permission. Speaking of the boys' parents, I don't know if they have been informed of this incident (they should be told), but if it were me, I'd be at least a little perturbed (not at you, stickmonkey, but rather <the cacher who should just go away>).

 

When my daughter was ten, she didn't know what a homosexual was, and the only appropriate people to first educate her on them was her mom and me.

 

This is supposed to be fun for all, not politics (and agendas) as usual.

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Geomaine had now said that they will release the bug, but I replied to keep it. First of all, not sure if I believe her/him and second this will give me another opportunity to take these fine boy scouts back out geocaching. Don't want to give Geomaine the satisfaction.

 

Bummer. I would have accepted the offer and let Geomaine release the bug.

 

I found what Geomaine did to be way out-of-line, but the offer to release the TB may have been a call for truce (people of this type are incapable of apologizing). You don't need to have the last word here, since we already know Geomaine has issues.

 

Sorry for the repeated use of "Geomaine" instead of using he or she. It's hard to tell on the Internet, and I don't want to be wrong and offend anyone.

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Hello all! My opinion hasn't been reflected here yet, so I'll add my 2 cents.

 

TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property. You don't own a ten dollar bill after you've given it away (or spent it). Groundspeak doesn't own the geocaches or TBs either. Certainly, we all like to see our gifts appreciated and long-lived, but if not, c'est la vie!

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TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property. You don't own a ten dollar bill after you've given it away (or spent it). Groundspeak doesn't own the geocaches or TBs either. Certainly, we all like to see our gifts appreciated and long-lived, but if not, c'est la vie!

I disagree. A TB belongs to its owner, but is sent out into the world to move around. As geocachers, it is our responsibility to keep them moving within their goals. We do not have the right to keep them, if we so choose. Similarly, a geocache belongs to its owner. As geocachers, we do not have the right to remove it without a good reason.

 

Obviously, non-cachers are not bound by these responsibilities. The individual in question, however, was a geocacher.

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TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property.

My Travel Bugs are indeed my personal property. I didn't "give" my Travel Bugs away, but I am sharing with other geocachers who play the game in good faith (notice who that excludes).

 

I also own the caches I have placed (which, again, I am sharing with other geocachers who play the game in good faith), and am responsible for maintenance during play and removal upon archive.

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Well, you may disagree with my opinion, but if you want to claim ownership, it behooves you to retain possession. Leaving your things out for others to 'play with' will eventually lead to a loss. If I find your ten dollar bill on the street, even with your name and phone number on it, I, like many, will not seek to return it.

Edited by edchen
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Well, you may disagree with my opinion, but if you want to claim ownership, it behooves you to retain possession. Leaving your things out for others to 'play with' will eventually lead to a loss. If I fing your ten dollar bill on the street, even with your name and phone number on it, I, like many, will not seek to return it.

 

However the person who finds your ten dollar is not playing a game and has no rules to abide by. Unlike geocaching where when you sign up for an account you are agreeing to abide by a set of rules.

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Well, you may disagree with my opinion, but if you want to claim ownership, it behooves you to retain possession. Leaving your things out for others to 'play with' will eventually lead to a loss. If I find your ten dollar bill on the street, even with your name and phone number on it, I, like many, will not seek to return it.

If you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, does he not still own it?

 

The week before last, I went on a business trip. On the morning that I checked out, I was in the hotel's gathering area, eating my complimentary chow. During which, I was making a few changes to my schedule and making some notes on my PDA. Stupidly, I left my PDA on the table when I left. The hotel shipped it to me a few days later. You see, it was still my property, even though I left it behind.

Edited by sbell111
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True, but it IS only a game and the rules are what we make of them. If I cannot abide a TB or cache, I will not hesitate to remove it. We each have personal 'rules' that supercede anything in this 'game'. I find it a bit silly for those who 'want' geocaching to be above religion or politics - people die for those things - what can be above that? By assuming the 'gift', personal suffering will be minimized. I believe it the best attitude for this activity.

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True, but it IS only a game and the rules are what we make of them. If I cannot abide a TB or cache, I will not hesitate to remove it. ...

So tell me, what is it about a compass with a TB tag that makes it hard to 'abide'?

 

What you propose is tantamount to stealing and would not be tolerated by the community.

Edited by sbell111
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If you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, does he not still own it?

 

The week before last, I went on a business trip. On the morning that I checked out, I was in the hotel's gathering area, eating my complimentary chow. During which, I was making a few changes to my schedule and making some notes on my PDA. Stupidly, I left my PDA on the table when I left. The hotel shipped it to me a few days later. You see, it was still my property, even though I left it behind.

 

That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

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That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours).

sbell111 isn't asking for or need any "proof" of ownership in his story. It was his no whether someone returned it or not.

 

About your comment on removing caches:

 

Not too long ago I found a brand-new cache on private property that had been placed without the landowner's permission. The landowner confronted me and told me if I didn't remove the container, he would. In that circumstance I apologized to the landowner, removed the cache, erased any evidence of it ever being there, and contacted the cache owner to return it them. I can't think of any other legitimate reason to remove a cache outside of blatant disregard for the guidelines or state-federal laws, safety concerns, etc., but definitely NOT because I happened to disagree with some opinion-based aspect of the cache.

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That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

 

The prisons are full of people who agree with you: "They left their car parked on the street, so it wasn't thiers anymore and I had every right to take it". :laughing:

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I find it a bit silly for those who 'want' geocaching to be above religion or politics

 

I can only speak for myself and I don't want Geocaching to be "above" politics and religion. I just don't see the need for politics and religion to become an influencing factor as to why people do or do not participate or how they participate. In this situation GeoMaine's personal agenda turned Geocaching into a political statement and don't we have enough of that in our daily lives in other things we do.

Edited by magellan315
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True, but it IS only a game and the rules are what we make of them. If I cannot abide a TB or cache, I will not hesitate to remove it. ...

So tell me, what is it about a compass with a TB tag that makes it hard to 'abide'?

 

What you propose is tantamount to stealing and would not be tolerated by the community.

 

The loss of likely dozens of TBs and caches are 'tolerated' every day by the community. To think of them as 'stolen' is extreme and extremely painful. Why adopt such an attitude? If you are willing to prosecute for the return of your 'property' - okay. Otherwise, 'gift' it. People don't belong in this activity if they are so possessive and/or bitter. As for the log, yes, you have the power to delete, but that power must be matched with consideration - the same consideration you ask of others. Remember, activating and 'freeing' the TB is a solicitation for logs without prejudice as to content.

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If you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, does he not still own it?

 

The week before last, I went on a business trip. On the morning that I checked out, I was in the hotel's gathering area, eating my complimentary chow. During which, I was making a few changes to my schedule and making some notes on my PDA. Stupidly, I left my PDA on the table when I left. The hotel shipped it to me a few days later. You see, it was still my property, even though I left it behind.

 

That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

 

When you give someone a gift, you make it clear that it's a gift by wrapping it, maybe adding a card or at least telling them "hey...this is for you". Travelbugs don't fall into this category...far from it. They have an expressed and written goal for the geocacher that finds it to follow.

 

I've released a number of my geocoins into the wild. Most of them have a goal to travel from cache to cache. A few of them have a goal to "find their way into a geocachers coin collection", those coins are gifts...the others are not.

 

There are 12 points in the scout law. The first is "Trustworthy". It's appropriate to mention here because every TB thats released depends on the cachers that find it to honor the trust bestowed by the TB owner.

 

Perhaps if GeoMaine took the time to learn what scouting actually teaches instead of repeating some sound bites, this wouldn't even be being discussed here.

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That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

 

The prisons are full of people who agree with you: "They left their car parked on the street, so it wasn't thiers anymore and I had every right to take it". :laughing:

 

Ha ha, true, but how many prisoners are there for stealing a cache or TB?

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True, but it IS only a game and the rules are what we make of them. If I cannot abide a TB or cache, I will not hesitate to remove it. ...

So tell me, what is it about a compass with a TB tag that makes it hard to 'abide'?

 

What you propose is tantamount to stealing and would not be tolerated by the community.

 

The loss of likely dozens of TBs and caches are 'tolerated' every day by the community. To think of them as 'stolen' is extreme and extremely painful. Why adopt such an attitude? If you are willing to prosecute for the return of your 'property' - okay. Otherwise, 'gift' it. People don't belong in this activity if they are so possessive and/or bitter. As for the log, yes, you have the power to delete, but that power must be matched with consideration - the same consideration you ask of others. Remember, activating and 'freeing' the TB is a solicitation for logs without prejudice as to content.

 

Removal of a cache due to problems that may affect the game is one thing but removal of a TB just for pure hate of a group or person is just forcing this particular persons personal views on others. I would think you would understand this EdChen after your recent trouble in Hawaii. :laughing: Stealing is stealing. I have removed caches from sensitive "areas" here in SC, but that was after my reviewer and I went through every available option to locate the cache owners and made plans to return the cache OWNERS PROPERTY to them.

 

X

 

Also if I pay money for it and have a cache page for it or activate a TB Tag that I paid for it is MINE. I put it out there as far as the game goes but other MATURE cachers would respect the fact that it BELONGS to the cacher who put it in motion.

Just my .02.

 

X

Edited by Clan X-Man
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If you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, does he not still own it?

 

The week before last, I went on a business trip. On the morning that I checked out, I was in the hotel's gathering area, eating my complimentary chow. During which, I was making a few changes to my schedule and making some notes on my PDA. Stupidly, I left my PDA on the table when I left. The hotel shipped it to me a few days later. You see, it was still my property, even though I left it behind.

 

That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

 

When you give someone a gift, you make it clear that it's a gift by wrapping it, maybe adding a card or at least telling them "hey...this is for you". Travelbugs don't fall into this category...far from it. They have an expressed and written goal for the geocacher that finds it to follow.

 

I've released a number of my geocoins into the wild. Most of them have a goal to travel from cache to cache. A few of them have a goal to "find their way into a geocachers coin collection", those coins are gifts...the others are not.

 

There are 12 points in the scout law. The first is "Trustworthy". It's appropriate to mention here because every TB thats released depends on the cachers that find it to honor the trust bestowed by the TB owner.

 

Perhaps if GeoMaine took the time to learn what scouting actually teaches instead of repeating some sound bites, this wouldn't even be being discussed here.

 

I have never left a note to a waiter or a maid, "this is for you", nor have I wrapped any [presumed] tip and also I have never had a [presumed] tip returned.

 

Some TBs have goals, others do not. Either way, if I find anything I consider inappropriate in a cache, I remove it. The limits are set by my conscience, as is true for everyone having one. You may not tolerate pornography, I may not tolerate knives or drugs. In any case, each of us makes the determination as individuals - and suffer the consequences as individuals, if any. If drugs are found in a cache, is the 'owner' liable?

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You are mixing dangerous with what you percieve to be in bad taste. There is a difference. Caching is what you make of it. Luckily most of us don't have to step up on the ammo box and preach to others. That last bit was not directed at you EdChen, rather it was directed at any and all who try to use these forums for their own "agenda".

 

Wow, that was a bit hypocritic of me. I do have an agenda here. My agenda is to have fun. To teach others about OUR wonderful game. That everyone here enters on fair and equal ground. That we are here to be friends and find new places and take each other to these places.

 

That said, I feel for SM and the fact that someone has STOLEN the kids property. That sucks. That person sucks. 'Nuff said.

 

X

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I have never left a note to a waiter or a maid, "this is for you", nor have I wrapped any [presumed] tip and also I have never had a [presumed] tip returned.

 

 

A tip is not a gift, it's a voluntary payment for services rendered...just ask the IRS. The waitress is required by federal law to report those tips as income.

 

As far as being a cache cop goes... If the cache or contents are clearly outside of the listing guidelines, you're well within reasonable limits to take action. If you just happen to think that McToys or lamp post micros are not appropriate and remove them, well, we've already covered the trustworthy part have'nt we??

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If you borrow your neighbor's lawn mower, does he not still own it?

 

The week before last, I went on a business trip. On the morning that I checked out, I was in the hotel's gathering area, eating my complimentary chow. During which, I was making a few changes to my schedule and making some notes on my PDA. Stupidly, I left my PDA on the table when I left. The hotel shipped it to me a few days later. You see, it was still my property, even though I left it behind.

 

That smeone sent it back doesn't 'prove' it was still yours (or even ever yours). It only proves that someone assumed it was yours - something someone else may not have done. In any case, I doubt they sent back the ten dollars you left 'for the maid'.

 

Of course, if the maid or waiter decided to lecture you on politics after the tip was received, that would be rather rude, when a simple "thank you" and spending of the $10 would have sufficed.

 

I'm more concerned about how people exploit the sentiments of ownership to FORCE an agenda than just the idea of ownership. I think that's the problem being discussed here.

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Removal of a cache due to problems that may affect the game is one thing but removal of a TB just for pure hate of a group or person is just forcing this particular persons personal views on others. I would think you would understand this EdChen after your recent trouble in Hawaii. :laughing: Stealing is stealing. I have removed caches from sensitive "areas" here in SC, but that was after my reviewer and I went through every available option to locate the cache owners and made plans to return the cache OWNERS PROPERTY to them.

 

X

 

Also if I pay money for it and have a cache page for it or activate a TB Tag that I paid for it is MINE. I put it out there as far as the game goes but other MATURE cachers would respect the fact that it BELONGS to the cacher who put it in motion.

Just my .02.

 

X

 

Who are you to say why the TB was removed? Nothing heretofore suggests anything unhonorable was intended. Certainly, there was an opinionated log, but that didn't imply the TB would not be moved along. Only when the log was deleted did anything develop along that line.

 

I don't know to what you refer concerning my 'recent trouble'. I have had no trouble. None at all. If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

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We are getting a bit off the topic here. My original complaint was for the log that Geomaine posted on the cache which bashed the boy scouts. Geomaine certainly had the right to her (Still not sure of gender, so to simplify things will say her from this point forward) opinion, but in extremly poor taste to make that posting on the cache page of 10 year olds. She then made some demands that I keep her log on the bug page for two weeks or she wouldn't release the bug. At this point, I considered the bug stolen because I had no intention on keeping that posting on the bug page. She later said she would release the bug, but the whole situation had aggravated me to the point that I told her to keep the bug. I will release a new bug with the scouts with the goal of heading West. The fact that she was holding the bug hostage was not really my major beef. The fact that she made a political statement on the bug page of 10 year olds was my major beef.

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If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

 

This is an attitude that typifies what is commonly known where I come from as "a jerk."

 

Well, not precisely, but the forum software will not pass along the actual term, which also describes anatomical feature sometimes known for the itching, the burning...

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... If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

I'm glad that you do not cache in my area. I find your attitude to be quite dishonorable. There is not a smilie strong enough to convey my disgust.

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Who are you to say why the TB was removed? Nothing heretofore suggests anything unhonorable was intended. Certainly, there was an opinionated log, but that didn't imply the TB would not be moved along. Only when the log was deleted did anything develop along that line.

 

I don't know to what you refer concerning my 'recent trouble'. I have had no trouble. None at all. If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

 

I am a fellow cacher and respect the rights of other cachers who pay their dues to play this game. A TB Tag is purchased and therefore belongs to said owner. Unless the person who took the TB has a compass phobia niether I nor anyone else would find this TB offensive.

 

As for your second thought, don't threaten other peoples caches or TB's it really puts a bad light on you. I supported the whole cache on Govt property thing you had going on a while ago. I can now see why others might have a problm playing the game with you. This is not a personal attack, just an observation. Ease up.

 

X

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A tip is not a gift, it's a voluntary payment for services rendered...just ask the IRS. The waitress is required by federal law to report those tips as income.

 

As far as being a cache cop goes... If the cache or contents are clearly outside of the listing guidelines, you're well within reasonable limits to take action. If you just happen to think that McToys or lamp post micros are not appropriate and remove them, well, we've already covered the trustworthy part have'nt we??

 

Yes, a tip is not a gift, but I have never given a tip, only presumed tips that were inadvertantly left and I fully expected to have returned. So, actually they were stealing from me! However, since I have never pressed for prosecution, the point is moot. Get it?

 

Cache cop - Exactly! Who interprets and enforces the guidelines? Each of us as individuals whenever we encounter and recognize a breach. In Hawaii, we have no regulating body to provide such functions. I cannot determine what may be considered outside the guidelines to anyone else, nor can you. We are each independent operators in a game effectively without special judicial recourse or precedence. I hope others act responsibly, I try to do likewise. I don't rush to judge.

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... If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

I'm glad that you do not cache in my area. I find your attitude to be quite dishonorable. There is not a smilie strong enough to convey my disgust.

 

Seconded.

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Cache cop - Exactly! Who interprets and enforces the guidelines? Each of us as individuals whenever we encounter and recognize a breach. In Hawaii, we have no regulating body to provide such functions. I cannot determine what may be considered outside the guidelines to anyone else, nor can you. We are each independent operators in a game effectively without special judicial recourse or precedence. I hope others act responsibly, I try to do likewise. I don't rush to judge.

 

Well, where I am we try to work with the reviewer for our area and work out our problems that way. Seems to have done quite well so far. Our reviewer has been instrumental in solving quite a few issues with us here in SC. Take it for what it's worth, I know I am not judge jury and executioner of a cache.

 

X

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"QUOTE(sbell111 @ Feb 6 2006, 06:21 PM)

 

QUOTE(edchen @ Feb 6 2006, 06:10 PM)

 

... If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

 

I'm glad that you do not cache in my area. I find your attitude to be quite dishonorable. There is not a smilie strong enough to convey my disgust.

 

 

Seconded."

 

THIRDED.

 

eta: so, has GeoMaine been given a penalty yet or what here?

Edited by denali7
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... If you have a TB that is your property, don't leave in it in a cache for me to find, because when I have it, it's mine to keep or destroy or use or give away as I see fit. Also, if it's damaged or lost while in my possession or in one of my caches - you lose, not I. I do not reimburse supposed owners. Nor am I reimbursed for my supposed losses.

I'm glad that you do not cache in my area. I find your attitude to be quite dishonorable. There is not a smilie strong enough to convey my disgust.

I think edchen is really just trying raise some hairs with his examples, he does appear to argue effectively, both in this thread and the previous one about the cache in Hawaii. Looking at his "trackables" page, it does not appear that he is bogarting any Travel Bugs, quite the opposite, he has a good history of moving them along. While his attitude might not be to one's liking, I get the feeling that him geocaching in my area wouldn't be a problem.

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.

 

TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property. You don't own a ten dollar bill after you've given it away (or spent it). Groundspeak doesn't own the geocaches or TBs either.

 

Apparently, GC.com and I both think you are completely wrong. If you look at the top of a TB page it clearly states OWNER: insert cachers name. It is not owned by whomever currently has it in their hands and they DO NOT have the right to do whatever they please with it. A TB is meant to move from cache to cache either following the specified goal of the owner or move randomly with no specific goal. The general INTENT is for it to travel, not for anyone who finds it to do whatever they want with it. Under your argument, the mailman can do whatever he wants with my letter after I've mailed it, simply because it's out of my possession and control. Should he throw away mail addressed to groups he finds reprehensible? I OWN the travel bug. I've asked other cachers to kindly move it to caches for me for my amusement.

 

I could understand it a lot better if the TB itself had offensive writing or pictures. Throwing out a TB that simply represents an organization or an ideology you disagree with is the heigth of intolerance and arrogance.

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.

 

TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property. You don't own a ten dollar bill after you've given it away (or spent it). Groundspeak doesn't own the geocaches or TBs either.

 

Apparently, GC.com and I both think you are completely wrong. If you look at the top of a TB page it clearly states OWNER: insert cachers name. It is not owned by whomever currently has it in their hands and they DO NOT have the right to do whatever they please with it. A TB is meant to move from cache to cache either following the specified goal of the owner or move randomly with no specific goal. The general INTENT is for it to travel, not for anyone who finds it to do whatever they want with it. Under your argument, the mailman can do whatever he wants with my letter after I've mailed it, simply because it's out of my possession and control. Should he throw away mail addressed to groups he finds reprehensible? I OWN the travel bug. I've asked other cachers to kindly move it to caches for me for my amusement.

 

I could understand it a lot better if the TB itself had offensive writing or pictures. Throwing out a TB that simply represents an organization or an ideology you disagree with is the heigth of intolerance and arrogance.

 

You're arguing my point. The cache page and the TB page may indeed be the property of the owner. The cache itself (which GC.com has usually never even seen) and the TB itself are not. Even so, GC.com can remove either page at it's convenience, so ownership is only conditional. If the OP wants to exert ownership rights over this 'supposedly' stolen TB, he can sue. If not, what good is the claim to ownership? Saying the TB was stolen doesn't MAKE it stolen. I find these accusations ridiculous and petty. BTW, condemning someone who hasn't been represented is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

Edited by edchen
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.

 

TBs, like geocaches, are GIFTS. They are not personal property. You don't own a ten dollar bill after you've given it away (or spent it). Groundspeak doesn't own the geocaches or TBs either.

 

Apparently, GC.com and I both think you are completely wrong. If you look at the top of a TB page it clearly states OWNER: insert cachers name. It is not owned by whomever currently has it in their hands and they DO NOT have the right to do whatever they please with it. A TB is meant to move from cache to cache either following the specified goal of the owner or move randomly with no specific goal. The general INTENT is for it to travel, not for anyone who finds it to do whatever they want with it. Under your argument, the mailman can do whatever he wants with my letter after I've mailed it, simply because it's out of my possession and control. Should he throw away mail addressed to groups he finds reprehensible? I OWN the travel bug. I've asked other cachers to kindly move it to caches for me for my amusement.

 

I could understand it a lot better if the TB itself had offensive writing or pictures. Throwing out a TB that simply represents an organization or an ideology you disagree with is the heigth of intolerance and arrogance.

 

You're arguing my point. The cache page and the TB page may indeed be the property of the owner. The cache itself (which GC.com has usually never even seen) and the TB itself are not. Even so, GC.com can remove either page at it's convenience, so ownership is only conditional. If the OP wants to exert ownership rights over this 'supposedly' stolen TB, he can sue. If not, what good is the claim to ownership? Saying the TB was stolen doesn't MAKE it stolen. I find these accusations ridiculous and petty. BTW, condemning someone who hasn't been represented is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

 

I'm definately NOT arguing your point. Take another look at a TB page. It lists the OWNER of the TB as the person who purchased it and put it out. We're not talking about caches here or pages on GC.com. We're talking about the physical TB. You keep wanting to argue semantics about the words ownership and stolen, as if these things are only real because someone says they are. Lets stop diverting the issue of bad behaviour by arguing what the meaning of "is" is. Whether or not the OP chooses to do something about his missing TB does not change the fact that someone did something to his property that was outside of his intent for it. His intent was that the TB move from one cache to another. Someone has purposefully and knowingly interfered with that intent by keeping it against his wishes. Sounds stolen to me.

 

Having an ideological disagreement, such as with a group that sponsors a TB, does not bestow upon you some higher moral right to impose your own will. That's the same "end justifies the means" rationalization that is used to justify all sorts of bad behaviour. "My purpose is so morally correct that it's OK if I do something a teensy bit wrong to get there." Nope. Wrong is still wrong.

 

I and my family have had numerous TB's go missing, which I wouldn't catagorize as theft, but is still disappointing. However, no one has ever posted a log for one of our TB's telling us, as happened to the OP, that they were intentionally keeping it. It seems just about everyone else here thinks that pretty much justifies being upset.

 

As far as condemning someone who "hasn't been represented", GeoMaine has yet to post on this particular forum thread but he surely represented himself by his TB logs and his emails to the OP. He made his views abundantly clear by his words and actions.

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I’ve listened to everyone that spoke his or her mind via e-mail and responded to many of you. I’ve been reading the forum posts without comment. I am here now to defend my actions.

 

I would like to start by saying that I have read many positive replies in the forum. People are beginning to understand that the BSA is not the organization that it needs to be… That more and more of us want it to be. I think like you, only I am thinking MORE like you. I am a very passionate person and feel that something simply has to be done. NOW.

 

Stickmonkey: You can delete my logs for the TB as much as you like, you can mark it as missing as often as you want to - it doesn't change the fact that I still have the travel bug and will be placing it soon, as always intended, as I’ve said from the very beginning...

 

As soon as tomorrow.

 

For the record: I never once said, "stickmonkey, I am keeping your TB." I never once said, "I am going to throw away your travel bug unless you..." or anything LIKE that.

 

Not only did he put words into my mouth, he took words OUT of my mouth

by cutting and pasting bits and pieces of my e-mails as he saw fit… and deliberately making sure they were taken out of context both here and in the forum topic he created just for this debate.

 

Interested? I have an unbroken chain of e-mails from stickmonkey available for review… along with everyone else who emailed me. Please note: I have no intention of sharing those in a public forum! I'm quite sure that stickmonkey is able to say the same thing for mine: he's got them. If he's not anymore because he's now deleted them – unlikely since he’s been using them to his liking for the forum posts from the beginning - I will forward any and all requested copies for copies DIRECTLY from my gmail sent folder. In all fairness be sure that you ask for them (from any of us for that matter) to be directly forwarded to you instead of 'cut and paste'. Those of you that are tech-heads will be able to verify that they are in fact, the originals.

 

All of you are always free to discuss with me your views of gay rights (pro or con) gay rights within the BSA and everything else as long as you are willing to listen to my views as well. I have always kept my e-mail address up and available on my profile page throughout this. Believe me, I’ve gotten more than enough e-mails that would make the hair stand up on the back of your many of your heads. I intend to do NOTHING with these, I assure you. I fully understand that there are people that will feel just as strongly against the things that I have strong feelings for. I’ve clearly expressed my opinion to several of you and respect those that do the same. It’s just immediately obvious that we simply cannot agree to disagree. No matter, it’s often that way with hotly debated social issues.

 

The word ‘bigot’ has been hurled in my direction several times to my utter surprise; I’ve been quite careful not to use it, as you would notice throughout this entire exchange. E-mails included!

Definition: “A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions differing from his own.” “Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to his or her prejudices even when these prejudices are challenged or proven to be false, often advocating and defending these prejudices in a rude and intolerant manner.

 

(the above appears from ‘wikipedia.com’)

 

So next to an infinitely unusual definition of ‘homophobic’ I received via e-mail, how can this be true? I’ve been very polite (or in one instance, polite just enough) to everyone. I’ve been inviting to your e-mails, I’ve been inviting to your comments; I’ve even been inviting a ton of abuse no one deserves, no matter what. Bigot? My feelings for the BSA are a fair cry from unique. There are hundreds of thousands of people that feel the same way about the BSA as I do. Some more tolerate, some even less tolerant than myself. It’s impossible to be prejudicial against a prejudicial organization! That’s like saying that it’s not okay to dislike the Klan. Yes, you all know that I love to make that comparison; to me it holds a perfect fit. After all, they had a very firm set of ‘standards’ against African Americans fifty years ago (and it was okay for them to do that?!) - much as the BSA now has against gays. Thank God the KKK is now a 99.9% dead organization. I’d love to see the BSA survive, only as a much more tolerant organization, much like the 4H is now.

 

Many have informed me that a TB log (or this forum) is not the correct place to discuss such things. Perhaps, but 90% of you have been more than happy to post an agreeing/conflicting opinion anyway, so that makes that point completely moot. In addition, I have seen so many issues that are off-topic here in geocaching that this is just par-for-the-course.

 

As I said to stickmonkey in an e-mail I sent to him:

 

“There has got to be something 'controversal' that you would be willing to stand up to almost anything. Stand up to your friends, your co-workers, even strangers. Stand up to being called a terrorist, stand up to the rudest e-mails that you can imagine from people that don't even know you... or even care why.

 

Gay rights? That's mine. Welcome to my world.”

 

BTW: It never made it into the forum, though he cut and paste nearly everything else after it.

 

I later wrote to him:

 

“All of your gay friends, all of your gay co-workers, all of your gay relatives. You're clearly not thinking about them... But I am. You are not thinking about your ten year old boys when they become adults. I am. If you don't think that one or two of those twenty or so boys you have in the troup will grow up to be gay or have a gay sister, you are wrong.”

 

By this, here is what I meant… and he knew this. He has a gay friend. He has a gay co-worker. He has a gay family member. By odds alone, it’s virtually guaranteed. By enrolling and promoting the BSA, he is slapping each one of those people in the face, intentional or not. To give himself something to do with his boys on the weekends and enjoy the company of adults? Seems like a high price to pay to me.

 

Perhaps I have been a bit too adamant about suggesting that the BSA is actively teaching prejudice. They are not. But not allowing openly gay leaders or openly gay teenagers to remain in the boy scouts and actively removing them from the BSA? Intolerance IS prejudice. Some of you are already getting ready to e-mail me… but hold on. As quietly as the organization tries to remove ‘them’ or stop them from joining in the first place, there is always the truth behind the action. The kids always eventually hear it. From their friends, fellow scouts; it’s in the press, it’s on the net and it’s in the blogs. So. Why does the BSA do it? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with protecting anyone. After all, every major study ever done has always pointed to straight men and pedophiles as being the major culprit of sexual abuse to children, both male and female children. The BSA does it because they have their ‘family values’ policy in place, and they can get away with it. Funny, but only one quarter of the families in the US now meet this ‘family values’ criteria. Outdated is not even the word for it.

 

Care to learn more? Visit http://www.bsa-discrimination.org or one of many others. All you have to do is google the BSA and gay discrimination. You will hear about hundreds of children that cannot have their father (or their mother) as leaders or volunteers in the BSA just because their parents are gay. These four boys that will eventually learn the truth and I promise you, it won’t be from me. That’s a conversation for their parents to have with them only when the time is right.

 

Now about this TB – I’ve said it from the very beginning; After all, it’s right in my first TB log; the one that got deleted. I never knew what I had until it was too late. After all, here I was in Vermont and being from Maine. Every TB owner likes to see a 150 mile jump, not three miles here, five miles there. Here I was, capable of putting some miles on these TB’s. I took two other TBs as well. Didn’t look at them either! All I see is the dog tag. If there isn’t a mission sheet with the TB, I take it. Little did I know that this TB had a small mission statement laminated on the BACK of the item… At least, until I got it home. It is very clearly promoting boyscouting and geocaching at the same time. It is not just a compass with a tag. The TB owner very specifically tied this TB to the Boy scouts.

 

Finally: Here it is. The aftermath. Granted, I may have 'hinted' that I was annoyed enough that he deleted my log without notice to hold onto it for a while, but I would never break the chain of a TB no matter how I felt about it. I have had TB’s that I have owned that have disappeared for as long as a year. Not once did I accuse anyone of stealing them, no matter how long they were holding onto them. Normally, most people would have a TB for a week or two in between caching weekends. I’ve had this one for less than a week. I’ve re-cached every TB I’ve ever gotten my hands on, save one (a geo-coin) that invited it’s finder to keep it. Even that caused me great worry before finally retaining it for the sake of maintaining a piece of geocaching history.

 

Obviously, my anger was NEVER directed at the ten-year-old boys. After all, they don’t know any better. My anger was solely directed at stickmonkey; mostly for the deletion of my log and partly for what I considered the continuation of a horrible organization. Is it his prerogative to enroll his kids? Of course. Is it within my right to speak my mind to an adult who is obviously active in the BSA? As long as this remains America, ALL of us have that right, and most of you have exercised that same right to speak to me about your own personal beliefs as well.

 

I sincerely cannot apologize for my first log; I wish I could, after all of this. Again, gay rights is my something 'controversal.’ I invite all of you to read through all of my cache logs and all of my TB logs. You will see that I’ve never been anything other than polite, respectful and cheerful in everything that I have ever touched as a geocacher, 300 caches later.

 

Again. For the record, I've had this TB for exactly five days. You can follow

my Vermont logs and see for yourself.

 

Five days. Hardly seems like a theft. : (

 

Thank you for your time everyone. I will reply to e-mails but will not be posting in this forum again. I wanted to make sure the TB issue was equally represented on both sides.

 

Sincerely;

-GeoMaine-

Edited by GeoMaine
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Just an update....geomaine has agreed to release the bug in two weeks providing I keep her log on bug page for two weeks. Kind of being held for ransom....but this is not the problem I had with the log. It was the fact that he/she is bashing the policies of an organization to an audience of a bunch of 10 year olds. I have no problems with the views of this person, just with the forum they are using to express them.

Man, I wouldn't agree to that, assuming they want to leave the same type of log as they did.

 

I'd let that one stay with them and start a new one with the copy tag. Don't give in to them man.

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I have marked to bug missing and advised Geomaine to keep it after receiving his latest e-mail. ...

 

Good for you, I wouldn't have put up with this crap as long as you did.

 

[stern modeator tone]

This thread has become ... If the OP ...

[/sterness]

Thanks

MM

 

It finally clicked! I know what OP means, duh!

 

Thanks for the stern enlightenment for me! B)

 

... Flamboyant, even.

 

Not that there's anything WRONG with that.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist B)

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