Obnoxious Tb Log

[+sbell111]

How do you do a thread a dissservice? And why don't you read the rest of what I said? I've said REPEATEDLY I have no problem with the TB that started this discussion and that I think the guy who pulled it and trotted out the drama llama on the TB log is a jackass.

 

Anyway, my hypothetical was based on something that would be patently obvious in the TB itself, which would take it out of the realm you're describing and into the area of violating the guidelines. If the Westboro Baptist Church put a TB with the URL to their website on it, yeah I'd pull it and notify Groundspeak.

 

If I found a TB that wasn't obviously connected, but found so on the TB page, I'd let Groundspeak know and let them make the call.

 

I'm not the cache police, but we all have a responsibility, in my opinion, to keep this sport on a solid ethical foundation. How do you think the news media would react to a story of the KKK's TB? Yeah, that'd make Geocachers look really good.

1) It does the thread a disservice because your hypothetical changed the basic facts.

2) You did not post that there was a problem with the hypothetical TB, just the beliefs of the TB owner.

3) I'm not sure that a TB with a church's URL would violate the guidelines. I assume that TBs are bound to the guidelines for trade items, not caches. This would not forbid a church group's URL. If we go by the guidelines for caches, it could be forbidden if the URL in itself was to be considered a solicitation, but that would be a stretch.

4) I'm not sure what you mean by a connection found on the cache page. If the page spews hate, report it to TPTB. If it merely identifies the owner as someone with distastful beliefs, get over it.

5) Worse things have been reported about the hobby than KKK members playing the game. It turns out we survived.

 

I think you really need to read what I've said thus far more carefully- you're either deliberately ignoring some things I've already made clear, or you're not reading the whole thread.

I've read the entire thread. Ijust disagree with what you posted. If you intentions were different than what you posted, perhaps we agree.

If I had any way of identifying the TB as being connected to such a group, that in my opinion would put it into the "inappropriate" category, because the very fact that I could ID it in the field would mean that its purpose was obvious.

This is the first time that you have mentioned identifying the item 'in the field'.

If, OTOH, it was just a TB and I found out later (say at the TB log page) that it was launched by such a group, I'd move it on, but report it to Groudspeak.

Again, just because you don't agree with the beliefs of the TB owner, does not make the item verboten.

I think the rhetoric is getting pretty inflamed here, and since people are insisting on creating strawmen to attack me with, is going south. So I'm unlikely to respond any further, but if you really feel the need, you can email me to carry on the conversation.

 

I had hoped this discussion could remain civil, but that's so often too much to ask in any forum on the net.

Actually, I think the conversation has been very civil. I'm sorry that you found it to be uncivil simply because I disagreed with you. As for the 'strawman' issue, you were the one that expanded from the specifics of the issue.

 

EDIT: It is so strange how it combines posts.

Edited February 4, 2006 by sbell111

[+Pablo Mac]

"Pulling" a travel Bug (as you put it) constitutes theft, so go ahead and admit that you would steal one sent out by an organization you disagree with.

 

Oops, except in this case the TB wasn't sent out by BSA, but rather some innocent 10-year-olds who happen to be Boy Scouts.

 

If I found a TB sent out by a group or organization I disagreed with, I would ignore it and leave it in the cache I just found and go find another cache. I certainly wouldn't feel justified by stealing...oops..."pulling" it.

[+Cyclometh]

A couple of points, then I'm going caching so I won't be responding anyway.

 

1) Search for "Westboro Baptist Church" or "Fred Phelps", and look at the URL of their church's website. I cannot, and will not, post it here, because it's offensive in and of itself. In particular, check out what his church has been doing at the funerals of soldiers. Then ask yourself what you'd do if you found a TB from that group?

 

2) A strawman is not changing the context of an argument. I changed the specifics of it so we could discuss the same issue from a different angle, a very valuable thing to do in any discussion where ethics/morals are involved. Using hypotheticals is a great way to see the situation through a different lens. A strawman is attributing a position to someone they did not take and attacking that. Several times people implied that I would have done the same thing to the TB that started this thread, or that I agreed with the guy that pulled such an asinine stunt.

 

3) The situations we're discussing may or may not have occured, but as geocaching grows in popularity, it's a foregone conclusion that they will. How does this affect the perception of the sport, and how do we address that? We're all responsible, collectively, for the conduct of the game. We may not need a bright-line rule, but there's gotta be a line.

 

"Pulling" a travel Bug (as you put it) constitutes theft, so go ahead and admit that you would steal one sent out by an organization you disagree with.

 

Oops, except in this case the TB wasn't sent out by BSA, but rather some innocent 10-year-olds who happen to be Boy Scouts.

 

If I found a TB sent out by a group or organization I disagreed with, I would ignore it and leave it in the cache I just found and go find another cache. I certainly wouldn't feel justified by stealing...oops..."pulling" it.

 

I rest my case.

[+Pablo Mac]

Oh, good. He's finally resting.

[+Lizardo]

Let me put on my flame retardant suit first...OK there.

 

1) Geocaching is a game.

 

2) Children placed this travel bug as a fun project.

 

3) Adults have turned this into an issue that has completely ruined it for the kids.

 

4) The BSA position on homosexuals or Christianity is wrong if you see it that way.

 

5) The BSA position on homosexuals or Christianity is right if you see it that way.

 

6) Fred Phelps is an extremist idiot.

 

7) Items 4-6 have no business being debated on a Travel Bug log on the Geocaching website (See #1).

 

Personally, I would release the copy tag. Let this be a lesson of tolerance (from both perspectives) for the children involved. And I would not be blackmailed to allow the 2 week inclusion of a partisan comment on the existing log.

 

Lizardo

[+Moose Mob]

This thread needs to settle down real fast.

Thank you.

[Trinity's Crew]

Let me put on my flame retardant suit first...OK there.

 

1) Geocaching is a game.

 

2) Children placed this travel bug as a fun project.

 

3) Adults have turned this into an issue that has completely ruined it for the kids.

 

4) The BSA position on homosexuals or Christianity is wrong if you see it that way.

 

5) The BSA position on homosexuals or Christianity is right if you see it that way.

 

6) Fred Phelps is an extremist idiot.

 

7) Items 4-6 have no business being debated on a Travel Bug log on the Geocaching website (See #1).

 

Personally, I would release the copy tag. Let this be a lesson of tolerance (from both perspectives) for the children involved. And I would not be blackmailed to allow the 2 week inclusion of a partisan comment on the existing log.

 

Lizardo

 

Well said! Especially 4, 5, 6, & 7.

[+sbell111]

Sounds good to me.

[+Team Noltex]

I'm definately not one to ever bash or flame in the forums, but I guess what I'm having the hardest time swallowing in about the last half of this thread is being lectured on proper geocaching and TB etiquette by someone who's been a member for all of a week and a half now. (You'll notice, no mention of cache finds here-it's not about the numbers) Everyone is welcome to their own opinion and absolutely has the right to express it. But it you are new to a group, might I suggest you at least take a little time to figure out its culture and values first before you start loudly expressing strong opinions. It's more than just respect, it keeps you from inextricably embedding your foot deep in your mouth.

 

A little less passion, a little more patience, please.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Team Noltex

[+sbell111]

sorry

Edited February 4, 2006 by sbell111

[+Team Noltex]

Pretty sure I wasn't talking about you, sbell111.

[+sbell111]

I accept your apology.

[+chstress53]

People seem to be missing the point here. It's not wether or not you support the BSA, or your opinion one way or another. The point is that this sport wasn't intended to promote or to bash any organization. It's a game. Voicing your opinion to a bunch of 10 year olds following this TB, is about as productive as trying to nail jello to a tree.

 

El Diablo

 

I agree with El Diablo. If I were the parent and that log appeared on the TB page I would have deleted it too immediately, as I would not wish to explain this to my children. ( And that is my right) The only thing different I would have done was email geomain and explain why it was deleted and offer that if they change the wording and resubmit a less offensive log that I would let that stand. A TB page is not the place for the politics of this issue.

[+Cyclometh]

{edited}

Edited February 5, 2006 by Cyclometh

[+sbell111]

[+Lone Duck]

That log was out of line with the whole purpose of tracking TBs, plain and simple. What the person who picked up the TB logged, could have been emailed to the TB owner instead.

[+cachew nut]

The Boy Scouts put out a Travel Bug, and some Boy Scout basher decides to hold the bug hostage for a couple of weeks in exchange for being allowed to spew their hate message on the Travel Bug page.

 

Just archive the bug page. I have at least a half dozen unactivated tags here, just let me know if you want one. Any adult who would mess with the travel bug of some 10 year old kid has a big problem, don't feed their sickness. Just send your new bug in a different direction.

 

It seems the only criticism I'm hearing about the Boy Scouts are from people who wouldn't be accepted for membership. Sour grapes or envy? There are lots of groups that wouldn't have me, they say no and I move on. Why want to be part of a group that wouldn't want me? Come to think of it, why want to be part of a group that would have me?

[+grueinthedark]

I had a half a mind to post some nasty notes for her travel bugs but didn't want to sink to her level.

 

Not all Scouts agree with National.

 

While she is ready to lump all Scouts in the same ideological vain, I'm a Scout Leader and an Episcopalian.

 

What side of the fence would she place me in her Black and White world.

[+reveritt]

If I found a TB dedicated to the Hitler Youth, I wouldn't take it out on a bunch of ten-year-olds. YOU DON'T PICK ON KIDS....

Auntie, I thought you hated children; I've heard you say so. And SHOUTING is not like you. Is it possible that you have a soft, maternal side after all?

 

By the way, a 10-year-old might be a Cub Scout, but probably not a Boy Scout.

[+sbell111]

Sure, but the organization isn't called 'Cub Scouts of America'. (CSA was already taken.)

Edited February 5, 2006 by sbell111

[luckykoi]

I never said it was. But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

 

My signature says geocaching should be above politics and religion, and it should. But some people will insist on introducing it, which means the rest of us have to deal with it. Being a geocacher doesn't mean you don't have opinions, and if we don't talk about stuff like this, then people just continue doing whatever because there's no consensus.

 

I don't think I'd be being a "donkey's behind" by pulling a hateful TB. The person(s) who put it out would qualify, IMO. The BSA one we're talking about certainly isn't hateful in the least, but it opens the discussion up to what would happen if you saw something that was put out by a straight-up hate group?

 

Those guidelines are for placed CACHES, if I recall. If I wanted to put out a TB for the RNC or DNC, that has nothing to do whatsoever with the cache. And besides, offense and hate are in teh eye of teh beholder. I recall a thread ayear or two back where some cache from Florida had a TB made to honor his grandfather, who happened to be on teh wrong side of WWII. He wanted the TB to go to a place in Austria. Unfortunately, he used a toy Nazi soldier - not because he was promoting Hitler or his policies, but because that is what his grandfather had been. However, people on that side of the pond didn't see it that way. Was it a bad call on the TB owner? Yeah. But what he intended and what 'they' chose to be offended at is ridiculous. Likewise with the BSA. So you're (you=rhetorical) offended by the BSA, in spite of all that they do that has nothing to do with sexual orientation AT ALL. That doesn't give you the right to be a jerk and steal the TB in revenge for some perceived wrong. I had no idea who PFLAG was until you mentioned it, but were I to find a TB, I'd still pass it on. What if someone got offended by my TB because it was from an American, and Americans are 'teh eeeevuuuuhhhlll'? SInce it is in Europe at the moment, does that make it OK that someone steals it? Because they are offended at the policies of the US? No. What if someone decided that teh plastic in which I placed my TB was not environmentally friendly? Does that give them the right to steal it because they are offended I used plastic? No.

 

The only thing I can see being removed from circulation is pornographic TBs, as it should be up to the parent how & when to expose a child to images of a sexual nature. But for the other stuff, where the images re not gona get stuck in a kids head (or have meaning anyway), just pass 'em by or pass 'em on.

 

I hate the way boy scouts can act in backcountry campgrounds. The leaders are to blame. I try to avoid camping anywhere near boyscouts after a few really bad experiences. I picked up a TB going to a Boyscout in Alaska and I was happy to move it on without posting anything nasty in the log. I suppose my heart strings were supposed to be pulled because this TB was going to a boyscout. I hope the TB makes it's goal but I was not going to slober all over it just because it beloged to a boyscout.

[+sbell111]

I hate the way boy scouts can act in backcountry campgrounds. The leaders are to blame. I try to avoid camping anywhere near boyscouts after a few really bad experiences. ...

I'm not sure what bad experiences that you had, but I think its important to remember that they're kids.

[+grueinthedark]

 

By the way, a 10-year-old might be a Cub Scout, but probably not a Boy Scout.

 

If the child is 10 1/2 and has earned the arrow of light as a Cub Scout, they may well indeed be a Boy Scout now.

[+cachew nut]

the arrow of light

<light><grin>

[+Kit Fox]

Is it me, or am I the only person that thinks that it is ironic that those who demand tolerance for their views or "alternative lifestyles," are themselves the most intolerant group on the planet? Do as I say, not as I do?

 

Last time I checked geocaching was a family friendly activity. Now everyone is trying to bring their agendas to the forefront, and make a fun hobby political. If i find a TB, I don't want to help, I leave it in the cache.

 

I think a few people need to start having fun again.

[+altosaxplayer]

I have a TB that I released with my sons boy scout troop. He and his friends have been enjoying watching the progress of this bug. Recently, a log was posted on the bug that I feel was uncalled for and was looking for some feedback on if I am overreacting.

 

HERE IS WHAT THEY WROTE:

 

"Didn't know what I had until it was too late. Ah, but our time has been spent wisely! Made the TB stare at the glaad.org website for an hour before remanding it back into the ziplock and a dark corner. As much as I love this game, there are much better things for a homophobic organization to 'introduce' to it's following. Living a non-prejudicial life should be one of them!"

 

MY EMAIL RESPONSE:

 

A little dissappointing to see a comment made like that. This was a TB put out by a group of 10 year old boys who were quite excited to watch the progress of their TB that they released. The boy scouts have been a great organization for my son and his friends. Certainly not w/o their controversy, but if you have a problem with BSA take it up with them, not a group of 10 year old boys.

 

THEIR FOLLOW UP RESPONSE:

 

A little bit dissapointing in seeing that my log was deleted like

that. This was a TB picked up by a geocacher that is quite sick to

watch the backward progress of a organization that I have no choice

but to voice my opinion about, certainly not without a bit of

controversy. If you have a problem with geocachers who hate prejudice

of all forms but you yourself don't, you need to ask yourself what you

are doing wrong... Never mind teaching those same values to a group of

ten year old boys.

 

[CoyoteRed]

Is it me, or am I the only person that thinks that it is ironic that those who demand tolerance for their views or "alternative lifestyles," are themselves the most intolerant group on the planet? Do as I say, not as I do?

 

That's about as ironic as someone who says, "I hate bigots!"

 

So, intolerance for intolerance falls ... where?

[+brodiebunch]

Perhaps you should have waited until the TB was out of GeoMaines hands before deleting the log?

[+cachew nut]

Perhaps you should have waited until the TB was out of GeoMaines hands before deleting the log?

 

Nonsense. I would have deleted the log too. The travel bug was owned by kids playing a game and the log provided links to a website discussing adult issues. Congrats on the quick delete, glad to see that the art of good parenting still exists. It doesn't matter whether they are right or wrong about the scouts, the post was just rude.

 

I can't imagine how someone would expect to post some political or hate material on a Travel Bug page and not expect it to be deleted. I don't believe the OP gave permission to the basher to use his Travel Bug page for some personal agenda. If the offender wants to bash the BSA or any other group, they should post it to their own pages, or discuss it through emails or PM's.

[+Pablo Mac]

Gotta agree with the rapid log deletion. I probably waited too long (36 hours) to delete an inappropriate log on my Lebanon Pizza Cache Bash #2, but posted a bleeped-out screenshot pic as an example of how NOT to log a cache. Why do people think they can pollute someone else's cache and Travel Bug pages with profanity and rudeness?

[+sbell111]

Perhaps you should have waited until the TB was out of GeoMaines hands before deleting the log?

 

Nonsense. I would have deleted the log too. ...

I think most people would have done the same. I think Brodiebunch was just making the point that its too bad that GeoMaines still had the bug when the log was deleted. If he had dropped it already, there would have been somewhat less drama.

[+BigWhiteTruck]

The Supreme Court has ruled that the Boy Scouts are homophobic, but they are permitted to be so, as a private organization.

 

While I admit I haven't actually read any rulings on the matter, I highly doubt the supreme court actually called BSA "homophobic". In fact, I highly doubt they called them anything of the sort. They may have dismissed someone's claims against BSA with the reasoning that BSA is a private organization, so it doesn't matter even if it is true, but there is a world of difference between that and what you are saying.

 

Example:

 

Person 1: So-and-so smells.

Supreme Court: That's none of your business. You don't have to be near him.

Person 2: The supreme court said so-and-so smells, but there's nothing we can do about it.

[+BigWhiteTruck]

Just an update....geomaine has agreed to release the bug in two weeks providing I keep her log on bug page for two weeks. Kind of being held for ransom....but this is not the problem I had with the log. It was the fact that he/she is bashing the policies of an organization to an audience of a bunch of 10 year olds. I have no problems with the views of this person, just with the forum they are using to express them.

 

Who said it was a her?

 

I was under the impression that it was a man named **** *****.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't post that info. Even if it is easy to find.

[+grueinthedark]

<light><grin>

 

sorry forgot to turn it back off [/light]

[+Harry Dolphin]

And so, to sum up:

The finder of a travel bug made a true statement about the organization that sponsors the group that put out the bug. His/her prerogative.

The bug owner deleted the post, without contacting the poster. His/her prerogative.

The bug owner considers a true statement to be 'obnovious'. His/her prerogative.

What I fail to see is any statement from the bug finder that s/he is holding the bug hostage, or threatening to keep it/dispose of it. That may be presumed by some, but I see no evidence of it.

Most responders are assuming what is not in evidence.

The bug owner has seen fit to make a major case out of the situation.

Finally (and this would seem to apply to geocaching as well), many religions consider contumely to be equally as egregious a sin as libel or slander.

The bug finder should not have posted such a statement, no matter how true it is.

The bug owner should be chastised for causing such an uproar.

Most of the responders need to learn a little tolerance.

[+sbell111]

[+BigWhiteTruck]

What I fail to see is any statement from the bug finder that s/he is holding the bug hostage, or threatening to keep it/dispose of it. That may be presumed by some, but I see no evidence of it.

Most responders are assuming what is not in evidence.

 

Just an update....geomaine has agreed to release the bug in two weeks providing I keep her log on bug page for two weeks. Kind of being held for ransom....but this is not the problem I had with the log. It was the fact that he/she is bashing the policies of an organization to an audience of a bunch of 10 year olds. I have no problems with the views of this person, just with the forum they are using to express them.

 

Edit: Me being mean, sorry.

Edited February 6, 2006 by BigWhiteTruck

[+stickmonkey and stickmonkey jr]

 

The bug owner has seen fit to make a major case out of the situation.

Finally (and this would seem to apply to geocaching as well), many religions consider contumely to be equally as egregious a sin as libel or slander.

The bug finder should not have posted such a statement, no matter how true it is.

The bug owner should be chastised for causing such an uproar.

Most of the responders need to learn a little tolerance.

 

If you re-read my original post, I was simply asking for an opinion on whether I was overracting to the log on my TB. Judging from the number of responders that have agreed that I didn't overreact, my question had been answered.

 

Also, an update to the Bug. I have decided to re-delete the log of the bugnapper which is in direct violation of his/her demands for the release of the bug. I will wait a week and if it is not released this bug will be archived and a new bug will be sent out. Oh, and its # 1 goal will be to stay as far away from Maine as possible.

[+sbell111]

Good for you.

[+reveritt]

And so, to sum up:

The finder of a travel bug made a true statement about the organization that sponsors the group that put out the bug. His/her prerogative.

The bug owner deleted the post, without contacting the poster. His/her prerogative.

The bug owner considers a true statement to be 'obnovious'. His/her prerogative....[blah, blah,blah]

 

<egregious contumely>

You should be beaten about the head and shoulders with a leather-bound copy of Blackstone's Commentaries until you beg for mercy--or possibly just given a strong laxative.

</egregious contumely>

[+stickmonkey and stickmonkey jr]

I have marked to bug missing and advised Geomaine to keep it after receiving his latest e-mail. Here it is:

 

"We can talk about that, since they are the ones I'm worried about as well. I can only assume that you are either their scoutmaster or the father of one of the boys. You somehow don't support 'their' decision, as in the BSA, yet here you are... Allowing them to teach their 'values' to your young impressionable boys. It's obvious that you won't agree with me, but it's no different than if I had a boy than was ten in the KKK. It's your true moral responsibilty to speak your mind against it, to me directly. Had I had a group of ten year old KKK members release a TB in the name of their membership, you wouldn't even hesitate to pick up the TB and speak your mind to the owner of the TB owner... and THEN some. Obviously the ten year olds I 'have' are too young to know any better. Your captive audience is faring no better.

 

Teaching respect for parents, teachers, the planet... All meaningless because in the same breath, they are teaching intolerance for an entire group of people. All of your gay friends, all of your gay co-workers, all of your gay relatives. You're clearly not thinking about them... But I am. You are not thinking about your ten year old boys when they become adults. I am. If you don't think that one or two of those twenty or so boys you have in the troup will grow up to be gay or have a gay sister, you are wrong. Yet, here you are. Starting their value system with this... This junk from the BSA.

 

You are wrong to say that everyone is entitled to their beliefs and their prejudices. You are wrong. They are not. The BSA thinks that they are entitled to practice and ENFORCE their beliefs and their prejudices. They are wrong. They are not.

 

Stop thinking about me or your TB. Start thinking about your boys and the lousy lessions they are learning from the BSA, directly or indirectly."

 

 

I also received an e-mail from him comparing the boy scouts to the Nazi's, but won't bore you with that. Thanks for the support from everyone and a new bug will be released shortly.

[+grueinthedark]

Good for you Stickmonkey!

 

Our Pack would be glad to move any TB of yours we find.

[+cachew nut]

Obviously the ten year olds I 'have' are too young to know any better. Your captive audience is faring no better.

 

In all honesty, at that age I doubt that they have had the birds and the bees talk yet. Therefore, how can anyone expect them to then understand about the birds and the other birds? (or bees and bees)

 

Teaching respect for parents, teachers, the planet... All meaningless because in the same breath, they are teaching intolerance for an entire group of people.

 

This is a misconception, I believe. I doubt that they get together and have meetings discussing any intolerance towards anyone. I believe it's a non-issue to them. Their meetings are about God and country, firestarting, sharpening sticks, camping, first-aid, etc. They are discussing things that are important to scouts. Believing they are discussing what is important to you is more or less wishful thinking on your part.

 

You're clearly not thinking about them... But I am.

 

See what I mean?

[Stache Rats]

 

Hmmmm, but he is prejudiced against Boy Scouts. Proof once again that so many of these types are among the most intolerant and closed minded folk around. The sad thing is that they are so smugly self-satisfied with their own "elightenment" they don't see their bigotry.

 

Briansnat, I couldn't have put it more eloquently. Their intolerance to these small children is abhorrent.

[+Ambrosia]

I find tb's that bother me in some way or the other fairly often. Some of them I find quite offensive.

 

But I either just leave them in the cache, or if I pick them up by accident, I move them on. They are the property of the bug owner, and not mine.

[+denali7]

as i see it, there is absolutely NOTHING to prevent GeoMaine, or anyone else for that matter, for repeating such actions. if there was ever a reason someone should be banned, if only to limit access to others' caches, it is GeoMaine. this is kindergarten-simple, GM took SM's property, broke the rules willingly and willfully, and needs a time out. there should be a consequence for this--this is no gray area whatsoever.

Edited February 6, 2006 by denali7

[+stickmonkey and stickmonkey jr]

Geomaine had now said that they will release the bug, but I replied to keep it. First of all, not sure if I believe her/him and second this will give me another opportunity to take these fine boy scouts back out geocaching. Don't want to give Geomaine the satisfaction.

[+denali7]

GM is no-doubt aware of this thread, so he/she would naturally want to SEEM conciliatory, judging from the predominant sentiment expressed here. too bad he/she didn't learn better values, like they teach in scouting: honesty, loyalty, respect for others. then such ridiculous backpedaling on his/her part would be unnecessary. you did the right thing, SM, as it seems you are left to deal with this alone. [hello, TPTB?] it certainly is a great way to discuss intolerance with the boys in your troop. too bad, i imagine it was only supposed to be a fun way to discuss geography.

[+Moose Mob]

[stern modeator tone]

This thread has become a platform for an agenda and it's relavance to geocaching is practically non existant.

 

Either it gets back to geocaching related, or it will be closed. If the OP would like it to moved to Off Topic, please let me know I and I will do that.

[/sterness]

Thanks

MM

[+AuntieWeasel]

Dear me. GeoMaine seems awfully excitable. And dramatic. Flamboyant, even.