I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But...

[tossedsalad]

What kind of a test lets you change your answer and tells you when it is right??? That is not the idea of the test that is wrong, that is the way they designed the test!!!

 

Other than the fact that I should not drive in your state, what is your point?

[+Team Perks]

What kind of a test lets you change your answer and tells you when it is right???  That is not the idea of the test that is wrong, that is the way they designed the test!!! 

 

Other than the fact that I should not drive in your state, what is your point?

My point is, taking tests doesn't guarantee that you've learned anything, or that you'll retain what you've supposedly learned. Honestly, how many of us haven't ever crammed the night before an exam, passed the test, and then two days later couldn't recall half the information?

 

The people who would read the guidelines thoroughly are going to do that whether there is a test at the end or not. The people who don't care about knowing and retaining the information--the people for whom a test would be geared--are only going to pay the minimum amount of attention that is required to pass the test, and then forget about it when they're done.

 

I teach roughly 800 people per year, at a major university, so I've witnessed that firsthand.

[+reveritt]

I'm not so sure that the person who placed the cache that ST linked to in the OP is inexperienced. The profile is brand new, but the cache listing reads like it was written by someone with at least some experience.

 

I suspect this may be a practical joke on the local FTF hounds.

[Silentshadow]

Hi everyone! I am a *newbie* as you can tell by my *tadpole* signature. And yes, I have ventured into this discussion, read all of them. All of them quite interesting I might add. I must say I am guite glad that someone started this discussion as it gives oneself quite an insight into what other geocachers are like and thinking. I thought this was a fun thing to do. I of course have not attempted to *find* one of these newbie geocaches as of yet but because I am on a Search and Rescue team, have thick skin, and a pitbull attitude I would view it as a challenge. But then thats just me. Heck, the first geocache I found was done purely with map and compass....only pulled out the GPS to mark a waypoint to my car.......GPS's can be extremely unreliable just when you need it....so I never rely on it totally on a search.--Just FYI..

 

You can tell that they are new by their logging of finds, etc..., and if they have not logged any finds before they place a cache why would you attempt to find it? If newbies are known for their awful coordinates and you know you will be aggravated in trying to locate one, why would you put yourself through it?

 

Rules? Yes, I agree there should be rules. What the rules should be are not up to me. I'm just out there to have fun, get fresh air, exercise, take in the scenery and wildlife and learn more about how people think and act. Yeah, its all a riddle, including life. If you run across something aggravating, stop, take a deep breath, consider the source.......and move on. I for one am not going to be intimidated.........and go ahead newbies place your caches......I for one am game for it.

 

**Since the person is new perhaps they don't have the proper map datum entered into their unit? It may be that a gentle and helpful suggestion to give that a check could solve the problem.**

 

The above was mentioned in a reply: again I cannot stress GPS's can be unreliable....even when the coordinates are perfectly entered.

 

Keep up the good caches......I like the hard ones! I like the HUNT!

LOL! I think I should change my nic to: TheHuntress......SilentShadow...hmmmmmmm......maybe it was a wrong choice.

[+budd-rdc]

I'm not so sure that the person who placed the cache that ST linked to in the OP is inexperienced.  The profile is brand new, but the cache listing reads like it was written by someone with at least some experience. 

 

I suspect this may be a practical joke on the local FTF hounds.

Yeah, but like Internet sarcasm, practical jokes may not work on everyone and have tendencies to backfire.

 

It's a good idea to mention (subtle or not) the fact that it's a joke on the cache page somewhere, since Geocaching has a wide audience and isn't just a fraternity hazing activity. There have been a few "game within a game" in our area as inside jokes, but the hides were usually not malicious unless someone chose to interpret them that way.

 

There isn't an effective way to thwart FTFs in our area, since most of them are quite good at finding caches at any time of the day, even if the coordinates are not spot-on. Hiding puzzle/mystery caches to thwart them doesn't work either, because some of them are good at solving them, too.

 

Some have even tried "needle in a haystack" style to thwart them, but the backlash was quite severe.

[+AO and CC]

Newbie Here!! Either way, rules or no rules I'm in. I have read the guidelines on hiding caches, a couple of times. I think this topic has some logic to it, and think that there are a lot of good ideas. Thats what I'm doing is finding some caches to see what is in them, the container that was used, and hiding techniques. I read these forums everyday or so, just to see whats new, and I think that is the best learning that I have had yet.

 

Love to go find the caches, and getting outdoors. Even with just two finds, I'm hooked.

 

No matter the decision on rules or test, I'm still in.

 

Cool test Bigdog!

 

AO

[tossedsalad]

What kind of a test lets you change your answer and tells you when it is right???  That is not the idea of the test that is wrong, that is the way they designed the test!!! 

 

Other than the fact that I should not drive in your state, what is your point?

My point is, taking tests doesn't guarantee that you've learned anything, or that you'll retain what you've supposedly learned. Honestly, how many of us haven't ever crammed the night before an exam, passed the test, and then two days later couldn't recall half the information?

 

The people who would read the guidelines thoroughly are going to do that whether there is a test at the end or not. The people who don't care about knowing and retaining the information--the people for whom a test would be geared--are only going to pay the minimum amount of attention that is required to pass the test, and then forget about it when they're done.

 

I teach roughly 800 people per year, at a major university, so I've witnessed that firsthand.

You are right, there are no guarantees in life. Is that what you want, a guarantee?

 

You can simplify this as much as you want, but it is pretty obvious that requiring a test (especially periodically) to place caches would do a lot to promote understanding of the guidelines. I think you are mistaken that the test is targetted to those who "don't care" and "don't retain" the information. I am one of those people who did not read the guidelines well enough to have grasped it all the first time, not because I didn't care, but because I was eager to get a cache out.

 

There are also a lot of ambigous content in the guidelines which makes it hard for a newbie to understand. In order to cover a point in a multiple choice question would require gc.com to make each point clear enough for all of us to get.

[+Team Perks]

No, I don't need a guarantee. But I don't want a needless hurdle. Just because there are a few knuckleheads out there who don't pay attention to the guidelines, why should everyone have to jump through hoops? The knuckleheads will still be there.

[Pto]

There are also a lot of ambigous content in the guidelines which makes it hard for a newbie to understand. In order to cover a point in a multiple choice question would require gc.com to make each point clear enough for all of us to get.

 

If the guidelines were more clear to begin with, the test might not be needed, right ?

 

Even as they are now, they are revised and improved from time to time-

Would you have to keep re-taking the test everytime the guidelines page was updated?

That wouldnt work out very well......

 

In the end, the guidelines are clear enough most anyone who Reads them, should be able to place a cache without troubles. Those who dont - well, as was just posted- the knuckleheads will always be there, no matter how hard we try to educate them.

[+Kit Fox]

Like the previous debate Cacher's Stats Are Only....1 Hidden? I disagree with a minimum number of finds before permitting your first hide.

 

Of the 680 + caches I have found, the worst caches I have ever found were from a couple who at the time had over 500 finds each. There is the occasional poorly placed cache from a newbie, but none ever matched the team mentioned above.

 

1 logged find, 335 hidden

Edited October 4, 2005 by Kit Fox

[+AtoZ]

Septic_Tank is it April first again. They may be accounts belong to folks that have a 100 hides and 1000s of finds done for anonomity sake. So no new rules please.

 

cheers

[+dykediva]

I just sincerely believe new cachers should have some general knowledge about caching before they place a cache.

 

mr tank

I can see where you are coming from even as a "newbie" myself. When I first found this site I could not wait to even get a GPS to go find my first cache (and I did find it without one). I got a GPS and was all eager to hide a cache after finding a couple. Then I found Sandbass's world famous "Spinning Wheel" and I was inspired. . .I was inspired to cool my jets and really think about what would be really creative. I think people rush out to hide a cache not to be annoying or anything but just out of excitement and rush to be part of the game. I still have not hidden my first one but I have bought parts! LOL.

dyke diva princess

[+kentuckygirls]

I don't want to have to take a test to play a game. This is supposed to be fun. I like to learn new things, but I don't want to have the pressure of studying for a test.

 

I think some people are naturally gifted when it comes to placing a cache and I think others need to learn from experience. Lets just all have fun!!

[+TeamAO]

<Cough, Cough> Sometimes it's not just the new cachers. <Cough, Cough>

 

 

(I was never here. )

[+Sevateem]

Stoneman in NW Pa. the last I looked has more hides than finds. He has less than 10 finds. But the 4 hides that we have found have to rate in our top 10. And from reading the cache pages and find logs for the rest they sound just as good.

We would have lost out on these great hides if he had to pass the 10 finds before placing a cache.. I don't think he really likes to cache, but wants to get people to places he finds interesting.. None are easy and one says ropes are needed.

[+Renegade Knight]

<Cough, Cough> Sometimes it's not just the new cachers. <Cough, Cough>...

Oh heck, don't be shy. Come right out and shout it. SOME OLD TIMERS ARE COMPLETE IDIOTS WHEN IT COMES TO CACHES.

 

You will feel better.

 

Changing tack.

 

Newbies have one advantage. They are not yet jaded and you can teach them new tricks. If you don't like what an old timers is doing, your SOL. Then you have to take some tadpole advice from above and consider the source. I've had to take that advice before. A clueless old timer who doesn't always do the best thing...but if you knew him you would forgive him. F or one thing he really is an old timer and geocaching keeps him grounded in the world. He'd do a bad trade without thinking but give you the shirt off his back and drive 200 miles to cache with you if you ask.

 

What was the topic again? Oh right tests.

 

Another Change in tack.

 

What will the cache zone look like under 4' of snow?

What kinds of holes make snake dens?

What does poison ivy look like in the winter?

What will the spot look like coverd in kudzu?

What 3 flavors of cache do the local critters destory?

Will wasps nest there come spring?

How many ways will people get hurt if you put the cache there?

If it's frozen is it really quicksand?

If it's 6" from the edge of a 200' cliff made of sand, is it too close?

Will that spot flood in the spring?

What are the exceptions to each of the question on the other test?

How much cash could a cacher cache if a cacher could cache cash?

[racer590]

There should be some qualification process for hiding your first cache. Let’s say, you have to find 10 (arbitrary number) caches, or pass a test or something before you place your first one.

 

This might help to ensure that you at least know how to use a GPSr. (example)

 

There are at least two new caches on my nearest list that are placed by newly joined cachers; in both cases the newbies have listed no finds. I just don’t understand the logic; I do appreciate the energy and enthusiasm.

this is my cache. i have been geocaching for over a year now. i know how to use my gps i checked and the coordinates are right on. its just hidden in a really good spot. i have found almost every cache in plainfield i just never list them. dont start talking bad about people just because they hide there cache so well that you cant find it or they havent updated there finds. now ill go back and check again to make sure the coordinates are right and ill update my finds but nextime before you go talking bad about someone you need to email them to ask them questions.

[+TeamAO]

There should be some qualification process for hiding your first cache.  Let’s say, you have to find 10 (arbitrary number) caches, or pass a test or something before you place your first one. 

 

This might help to ensure that you at least know how to use a GPSr.  (example)  

 

There are at least two new caches on my nearest list that are placed by newly joined cachers; in both cases the newbies have listed no finds.  I just don’t understand the logic; I do appreciate the energy and enthusiasm.   

this is my cache. i have been geocaching for over a year now. i know how to use my gps i checked and the coordinates are right on. its just hidden in a really good spot. i have found almost every cache in plainfield i just never list them. dont start talking bad about people just because they hide there cache so well that you cant find it or they havent updated there finds. now ill go back and check again to make sure the coordinates are right and ill update my finds but nextime before you go talking bad about someone you need to email them to ask them questions.

<Coughing> PM's are the way to go. You're right. So why did you just say that right in public when you could have abided by the method you suggested for him to use. <Cough, Cough>

 

Really folks.

[+briansnat]

I think it is a good idea to require a new hider to pass a test to verify that the guidelines have been read and are understood.

 

Its already there. Everyone who submits a cache has to check a box verifying that they read the guidelines.

[+Jester2112]

Dude, I’m sorry if you misinterpreted my topic as a newbie flame. Actually, before this topic, I rarely used the word newbie; I hate it; I’m sorry I used it now.

 

I just sincerely believe new cachers should have some general knowledge about caching before they place a cache.

 

Concerning your allusion that I may have placed my first cache too early, please note the the log right before mine (on my first find):

 

It explains how I received a 90-minute tutorial from a cacher who began caching in 2001 with (at that time) over 800 finds. A 30-minute hike followed that to a real cache (let’s call it hands-on experience).

 

septic:

 

Sorry if I jumped on ya for your post. I guess I was thinking in the same frame of mind I was the night I stumbled across the website, thought it was a bunch of BS and then got off the couch to go find my first 2 caches...sans GPS as you can see. I came home with the whole "there's a whole secret society out there that has been hiding stuff in my usual haunts, that I had no idea about" feeling that can never be replaced. I immediately was caught hook, line & sinker and had my buddy hooked as well. He actually bought the GPS before I did. It was like magic and I wanted to yell it from the tops of mountains to announce the fact I had found something on the net that few knew about but at the same time enjoyed being a member of a "secret" society. Then I flashed forward...more than a year caching under my belt, 100+ finds, 6 hides...then I find this thread after reading the guidelines, forums, suggestions, etc.

 

I just have to think as a newb, excited about the things that make our hobby addictive, but at the same time, now scared that I'm going to do something wrong that everybody here will consider my, and my caches, to not be worth the effort.

 

My reply would have been better served if I had simply mentioned that I was against another rule that makes this somewhat simple activity more complicated than it should be. I consider GC.com a very friendly site for newbies that was never meant to encourage a "members only" type atmosphere.

 

With that said, I'll admit that I've gleaned, and enjoyed doing so, much knowledge from your previous posts as a more experienced cacher than I. Thanks for your continuing support and enthusiasm for our hobby/sport.

[+TeamAO]

I think it is a good idea to require a new hider to pass a test to verify that the guidelines have been read and are understood.

 

Its already there. Everyone who submits a cache has to check a box verifying that they read the guidelines.

Correct.

[tossedsalad]

I don't want to have to take a test to play a game.  This is supposed to be fun.  I like to learn new things, but I don't want to have the pressure of studying for a test. 

 

I think some people are naturally gifted when it comes to placing a cache and I think others need to learn from experience.  Lets just all have fun!!

Studying to play a game??? That attitude is just what the test is intended to prevent!

 

The test won't be required to geocache, just when you want to create a cache. You are supposed to read and understand the guidelines before you place a cache, so you are supposed to do the studying regardless of whether there is a test or not! The point of the test is to make sure you actually did the studying.

[tossedsalad]

How much cash could a cacher cache if a cacher could cache cash?

A cacher would cache all the cash he could cache if a cacher could cache cash!

[tossedsalad]

I think it is a good idea to require a new hider to pass a test to verify that the guidelines have been read and are understood.

 

Its already there. Everyone who submits a cache has to check a box verifying that they read the guidelines.

I was thinking of a slightly tougher test. Nearly anyone can read the guidelines, but a test would make sure they actually read and understand them.

 

As I have already indicated the problem is not just with the cacher. There are parts of the guidelines that are not clear as they could be. By creating a test that hiders would have to pass, it would give feedback about which parts are not clear and would allow gc.com to reword them to make them more clear, thus fixing both sides of the issue.

 

Here is an example that has very recently been the subject of note. From the guidelines, "Caches near or under public structures deemed potential or possible targets for terrorist attacks. These include but are not limited to highway bridges..."

 

The term "highway bridges" is vague enough that it warrents further definition. I am not saying that it needs to be defined precisely enough that every permissible bridge can be determined from the guidelines. But clearly the term "highway" is completely vague for this purpose. If this were on the test, the guideline should define a bit more completely what type of road is meant by "highway".

 

A test may not be the only way to deal with these problems, but I think it is a good idea and could be implemented with a minimum of effort. It will create nearly no burden on the people who want to place caches. I can't believe that anyone thinks taking a 3 minute multiple choice test would be "jumping through hoops" or an unreasonable "burden". Get real, I take that much time to fill out the form to get a supermarket card that I need to save a buck and a half on sale prices. I often spend $30 or more as well as some 5 or 10 hours setting up a cache. I don't see how anyone could object to taking a 50 question test.

 

Maybe they are concerned that they won't pass the test???

[+sept1c_tank]

I think it is a good idea to require a new hider to pass a test to verify that the guidelines have been read and are understood.

 

Its already there. Everyone who submits a cache has to check a box verifying that they read the guidelines.

Granted, there is a box, but not a test; it's pretty hard to fail checking a box. Even then, the lister is verifying only that he has read the guidelines.

 

This is the way people are invited to place a cache on GC.com:

 

Hide a cache

 

To hide a new geocache in your area...

 

Please make sure to obtain permission from the landowner or land manager and read the guidelines for reporting a cache (last update 02/14/05) prior to placing your geocache.

 

Reporting a new cache is easy. Just fill out our online form to report a new cache to the web site.

 

The listing guidelines say very little about correct coordinates:

 

Before submitting your report you must visit the location to obtain accurate coordinates with a GPS.

 

Then lower on the page:

 

Help! How do I place a cache?

 

We have a quick tutorial to help you create your first cache.

 

 

When you reach the location to place your cache, the hardest part (depending on the model of your GPS unit, the terrain, etc), is getting exact coordinates from your GPS unit. It all depends on how visible your cache is, but you'll need to get the coordinates as close as possible to the cache.

 

Some GPS units have the ability to do averaging, but if yours can't, the best suggestion is to take a waypoint, walk away from the location, then return and take another waypoint. Do this around 7-10 times, then pick the best waypoint (I've done this with a Garmin eTrex on a cache)

 

Once you have your waypoint, write it in permanent marker on the container, the log book, and make sure you have a copy to bring back with you. Write a few notes in the log book if you like, place it in a zip-loc baggie, and place it in the container. Make sure to secure the container with a rock, etc, to decrease the chance of it blowing, floating, or being carried away.

 

Something about a horse and a carraige. Shouldn't we invite people to learn a little before we invite them to place a cache? And a little test after the tutorial wouldn't hurt anyone.

Edited October 5, 2005 by sept1c_tank

[+budd-rdc]

From the lnik I provided earlier on the thread, here's something more helpful in getting accurate coordinates:

 

Step 3 - Placing Your Cache

When you reach the location to place your cache, the hardest part (depending on the model of your GPS unit, the terrain, etc), is getting exact coordinates from your GPS unit. It all depends on how visible your cache is, but you'll need to get the coordinates as close as possible to the cache.

 

Some GPS units have the ability to do averaging, but if yours can't, the best suggestion is to take a waypoint, walk away from the location, then return and take another waypoint. Do this around 7-10 times, then pick the best waypoint (I've done this with a Garmin eTrex on a cache)

 

Once you have your waypoint, write it in permanent marker on the container, the log book, and make sure you have a copy to bring back with you. Write a few notes in the log book if you like, place it in a zip-loc baggie, and place it in the container. Make sure to secure the container with a rock, etc, to decrease the chance of it blowing, floating, or being carried away.

 

Please do not bury the container unless you have express permission of the landowner or manager. If the cache is far enough away from trafficked areas, your cache should be fine. An exception would be covering the cache with dead branches, bark, etc. to conceal the container.

 

Perhaps, Groundspeak can make HIDING YOUR FIRST GEOCACHE link more obvious since many of us still can't find it easily? (Sorry for the CAPS, this one deserved some emphasis )

[+Team Perks]

As I have already indicated the problem is not just with the cacher.  There are parts of the guidelines that are not clear as they could be.

Good. Then we've established that the fault is with the guideilnes, not the cacher. Fix the guidelines.

 

By creating a test that hiders would have to pass, it would give feedback about which parts are not clear and would allow gc.com to reword them to make them more clear, thus fixing both sides of the issue.

So you effectively acknowledge that people could have difficulty passing a test if it is based on vague guidelines. Boy, I can't wait to take that test!

 

A test may not be the only way to deal with these problems, but I think it is a good idea and could be implemented with a minimum of effort.

You've evidently never tried to write a test that is fair, accurate, and clearly understandable to the overwhelming majority. Having taught more than 10,000 people in my career, I'll tell you: it ain't easy.

 

I don't see how anyone could object to taking a 50 question test.

50 questions? You gotta be kidding me. I sure as hell would object to that! Why? Because I've read, and I know I understand, the guidelines. I made sure I understood them before I hid my first cache. As I've said before, answering a bunch of questions only proves that I can answer the questions correctly. The real test comes when I click the "submit" button and it's in the reviewers' hands, and then once published, in the hands of the geocaching community.

[+sept1c_tank]

this is my cache. i have been geocaching for over a year now. i know how to use my gps i checked and the coordinates are right on. its just hidden in a really good spot. i have found almost every cache in plainfield i just never list them. dont start talking bad about people just because they hide there cache so well that you cant find it or they havent updated there finds. now ill go back and check again to make sure the coordinates are right and ill update my finds but nextime before you go talking bad about someone you need to email them to ask them questions.

Actually, I sent you a separate email about your cache shortly after I logged my first DNF on it. In that email, I politely asked you to verify your coordinates; your only reply (in the form of the public cache log) was, “just keep looking this one is hidden very well.”

 

After two more people logged DNF (one finding the first leg about 150 ft. off), I created this topic.

 

Also, I visited one of my caches (one of 12 caches that you logged yesterday) that suddenly appeared in your find count, and observed that you have never signed the physical logbook.

 

Many in the caching community would say, “it’s not a find if you don’t sign the logbook.” But don’t worry, I’m not one who really cares; I will not delete your find.

 

This topic is not about you, racer590, or your particular style of playing the game. It’s also not about me or FTFs or DNFs. It’s about refining a system that currently invites new cachers to hide a geocache. The system is guideline-wise and practicality-foolish.

 

Whether or not there are requirements or a test imposed, the system should more strongly encourage new hiders to gain some experience before listing a cache.

[+Tharagleb]

Re newbies planting caches: see this one.

 

Arrrghhh!!!

 

[bTW: If anyone can figure out the correct coords I will do something nice for you. I have tried other coord systems, one digit variations etc.]

Edited October 5, 2005 by Tharagleb

[tossedsalad]

As I have already indicated the problem is not just with the cacher.  There are parts of the guidelines that are not clear as they could be.

Good. Then we've established that the fault is with the guideilnes, not the cacher. Fix the guidelines.

Clearly you are one of the people who need to take the test. If you read what I wrote and came to the conclusion you state, then you are demonstrating my point of needing the test.

 

By creating a test that hiders would have to pass, it would give feedback about which parts are not clear and would allow gc.com to reword them to make them more clear, thus fixing both sides of the issue.

So you effectively acknowledge that people could have difficulty passing a test if it is based on vague guidelines. Boy, I can't wait to take that test!

Again your reading is not very good as you seem to have completely missed my point of needing to make the guidelines very clear.

 

A test may not be the only way to deal with these problems, but I think it is a good idea and could be implemented with a minimum of effort.

You've evidently never tried to write a test that is fair, accurate, and clearly understandable to the overwhelming majority. Having taught more than 10,000 people in my career, I'll tell you: it ain't easy.

I have written tests as an instructor in electronics classes, that is why I understand that it is easy to write a test for material that is clear. You not only have to have material that is written well, you need to have a list of points that you are trying to get across with the material. Then you write the test to see if the student learned the points. It is very simple. It may not be perfect the first time, but the feedback helps with clarifying the material being taught as well as the test being given. I would be happy to work on both if gc.com feels they need help.

 

I don't see how anyone could object to taking a 50 question test.

50 questions? You gotta be kidding me. I sure as hell would object to that! Why? Because I've read, and I know I understand, the guidelines. I made sure I understood them before I hid my first cache. As I've said before, answering a bunch of questions only proves that I can answer the questions correctly. The real test comes when I click the "submit" button and it's in the reviewers' hands, and then once published, in the hands of the geocaching community.

 

Ok, I guess there will always be people who complain. But a 50 question online test prior to receiving permission to placing your first cache is not a significant burden. As I said, I spent more time than that making my first container.

 

The reviewer is not in a position to evaluate the cache against all the guidelines since the reviewer does not full knowledge about the cache. Only the hider has full knowlege about the cache.

 

You can bring up any silly arguments you want. A test may not be needed to fix the problems we have with caches not fitting the guidelines, but it can definitely help and would not be a burden on either gc.com or the cachers. It is just another way to skin a cat.

[+kentuckygirls]

Studying to play a game??? That attitude is just what the test is intended to prevent!

 

It is a game isn't it? I don't understand what "attitude" you are talking about.

 

The test won't be required to geocache, just when you want to create a cache. You are supposed to read and understand the guidelines before you place a cache, so you are supposed to do the studying regardless of whether there is a test or not! The point of the test is to make sure you actually did the studying.

 

I read the guidelines. I did the studying. Maybe I don't test well.

[+WanderTwins]

As another newbie, I have read this thread with a great deal of interest and have taken many of the ideas to heart. I had decided even before seeking my first cache that I was going to find at least 20 or more before I even thought of placing my first cache. Obviously people get excited and aren't as meticulous as others and that will lead to some bad caches caused by poor hides, bad coordinates, or accidental placement under a wasps nest.

 

However, in thinking about taking a test for hiding your cache, in the end I don't really think it will do all that much. A lot of it is really common sense, and I'm sorry, but there are people you cant teach that to. Furthermore, I believe we all had to pass a test to get our drivers license, but that doesn't stop most of us from speeding, rolling through stop signs, or turning left over a double yellow line. A test only forces you to know guidelines but doesn't force you to follow them.

 

In the end, I feel this sport is self-policing, and tests will only serve to put off people who don't want to have to go through the hassle just to put out a hide. Also, just because you go through the trouble of taking a test, that doesn't guarantee the greatness of your hide. If a person repeatedly makes bad hides, then let them and others know about it on the logs and people will decide for themselves whether to put their caches on their ignore list. I think word of mouth will be the most effective detriment to poor hides. Peer pressure is usually a good motivating factor.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If you read the recent thread about a bridge cache being mistaken for a bomb, the hider said "There are guidelines, but not for that" or words to this effect. Clearly he forgot the guidelines and a test would have helped, especially if you have to retake it after 6 months or maybe a year. ...

More test questions.

 

When is a road busy enough to be major?

If it's a lightly used pedestrian bridge and a cache is on it should it be removed for an event that would crowd the bridge to capacity?

What is the current list of high risk terrorist targets?

You shouldn't place caches on sensative archaelogical sites. How do you learn the location of those sites?

Who is the keeper of the sensative designation?

When can I ignore an area identified by a tribe as a cultural traditional place and place a cache there anyway in spite of the claim of significance?

Is it ok if it's not in the guidelines?

Why is geocaching not a game and why should it never ever, be called a game?

 

There is too much to know. I'd rather see a series of classes over beer and pizza. Fun and entertaining, you can ask questions of the land managers who's good will we depend on for our activity.

[+El Diablo]

As another newbie, I have read this thread with a great deal of interest and have taken many of the ideas to heart.  I had decided even before seeking my first cache that I was going to find at least 20 or more before I even thought of placing my first cache.  Obviously people get excited and aren't as meticulous as others and that will lead to some bad caches caused by poor hides, bad coordinates, or accidental placement under a wasps nest. 

 

However, in thinking about taking a test for hiding your cache, in the end I don't really think it will do all that much.  A lot of it is really common sense, and I'm sorry, but there are people you cant teach that to.  Furthermore, I believe we all had to pass a test to get our drivers license, but that doesn't stop most of us from speeding, rolling through stop signs, or turning left over a double yellow line.  A test only forces you to know guidelines but doesn't force you to follow them. 

 

In the end, I feel this sport is self-policing, and tests will only serve to put off people who don't want to have to go through the hassle just to put out a hide.  Also, just because you go through the trouble of taking a test, that doesn't guarantee the greatness of your hide.  If a person repeatedly makes bad hides, then let them and others know about it on the logs and people will decide for themselves whether to put their caches on their ignore list.  I think word of mouth will be the most effective detriment to poor hides.  Peer pressure is usually a good motivating factor.

Great response and good advice.

 

El Diablo

Edited October 5, 2005 by El Diablo

[+The Leprechauns]

I agree; WanderTwins "gets it" and makes a good post. I'd be willing to bet that the very first WanderTwins hide will follow all the guidelines, will have reasonably accurate coordinates, and will get good reviews from finders.

 

I also liked Renegade Knight's post because it illustrates the infeasibility of writing a guidelines document that is as comprehensive and detailed as some people would like it to be. Read through the old forum threads and you'll see lots of people complaining that there are "too many rules" and that the guidelines are long and boring. They are. But if we stopped at the end of every sentence to provide a complete definitional essay on every single point, two things would happen: first, even fewer people would read them, and second, there would still be situations that aren't squarely addressed by even the most comprehensive 100 page guideline document that lawyers, engineers and land managers could possibly write.

 

I have discussed two new cache concepts just within the past week that I've never heard of before, and which are not squarely addressed in the guidelines. You use common sense to fill in the details in between the sentences. The guidelines are more like the Constitution than the Code of Federal Regulations.

[+Team Perks]

Tossedsalad, obviously you and I are not going to agree. I still think your arguments are baseless, no matter how many times you argue that I simply failed to understand them.

 

(For the record, I read it what you wrote just fine. However, it is possible that I misunderstood your arguments. I guess I should have taken a test to prove my comprehension skills, even though the problem may have been with what you wrote being vague. See how much sense that makes now? )

 

I will just respond by saying this one last time: If the fault is with people not understanding the guidelines because they are unclear, fix the guidelines. Throwing bureaucracy at the problem won't do squat.

[+sept1c_tank]

...If the fault is with people not understanding the guidelines because they are unclear, fix the guidelines.  Throwing bureaucracy at the problem won't do squat.

The guidlines may be unclear, but that is not what I am driving at. The guidelines tell us what we should or should not do to get a cache approved; they offer little information concerning what is considered a standard in our community.

 

I'm not suggesting that a standard is where we should be aimed, but that the community-derived standards of accuracy, location or other measurements of cache excellence are basically bypassed in the cache listing procedure.

 

As noted in previous posts in this topic, peer presure is probably the most effective method for communicating the community's standards, but it has also been noted that many new cache hiders have not really become a part of the community at the time of their first listing. It has also been noted that this process (becoming an interactive member of the community) is not necessarily an easy, natural process.

 

On this site, new listers are encouraged to read the guidelines, but they may still have no idea about what this game is all about. They should be encouraged, from the beginning, to get input, or help, if they are inexperienced.

 

BTW, Tossed Salad, I think 50 questions is a bit extreme; private pilots only have to answer 40.

 

And, Team Perks, I agree that writing a comprehensive test is not an easy task, and that it would still provide no guarantees.

 

Perhaps, Groundspeak can make HIDING YOUR FIRST GEOCACHE link more obvious since many of us still can't find it easily? 

 

This is a realistic approach. Encourage new cachers to read a little before you invite them to list.

[+El Diablo]

 

On this site, new listers are encouraged to read the guidelines, but they may still have no idea about what this game is all about. They should be encouraged, from the beginning, to get input, or help, if they are inexperienced.

 

I'll disagree. Like I said earlier. This sport/game/hobby was founded and built by people who had found very few if any caches at all before they placed one. Remember that when Dave Ulmer hid the very first cache he had never found one. Granted it wasn't the perfect cache, but the coordinates must have been good because it was found the next day.

 

I found 2 out of 3 caches in my area before hiding the very first multiple cache in the area. It was a good cache and lasted many years before I archived it. Once again all it takes is common sense to place a cache, not experience.

 

I don't think that new cachers hide lame caches, just the opposite. I think they bring new ideas to the game. The biggest problem I see is with people that don't know how to use their GPS and people that just don't use common sense.

 

As far as being part of the community...In my opinion as soon as you sign on to this site, you are a part of the community.

 

El Diablo

[+Renegade Knight]

...

Perhaps, Groundspeak can make HIDING YOUR FIRST GEOCACHE link more obvious since many of us still can't find it easily? 

 

This is a realistic approach. Encourage new cachers to read a little before you invite them to list.

Thats funny. Hide the link. Call it a rite of passage and let them log it as a cache to boot. I like it.

Edited October 6, 2005 by Renegade Knight

[+Isonzo Karst]

Bury the "online form" link deep into the guidelines.... that still doesn't help the 200 feet off coordinates. But I like it

[+sept1c_tank]

...

Perhaps, Groundspeak can make HIDING YOUR FIRST GEOCACHE link more obvious since many of us still can't find it easily? 

 

This is a realistic approach. Encourage new cachers to read a little before you invite them to list.

Thats funny. Hide the link. Call it a rite of passage and let them log it as a cache to boot. I like it.

That is funny!

[+Team Perks]

Honestly, I have to ask, how pervasive IS this problem?

 

Sure, we could all name a few bad apples out of our finds. If I thought real hard while scrolling through my "found" list, I could probably come up with maybe 20 or 30 caches I've seen over the past two years and change that were either in an off-limits location or had the "200 feet off" problem. Out of 2500 finds, that barely scratches the 1% mark of all of my cache finds. Based on my own past experiences I guess I just can't say I even remotely see the need to put 100% of new cachers through more hoops just because a miniscule percentage will screw things up.

 

Am I really that lucky in my past experiences? Is it really that bad elsewhere?

[+sept1c_tank]

...Am I really that lucky in my past experiences?  Is it really that bad elsewhere?

It's not a problem that is that bad...now. But with the popularity of geocaching growing at the exponential rate (excuse me Jeremy ) that it is, there's a good possibility that it may become a problem.

 

Look, I'm only suggesting that we encourage new cachers to learn a little about the game before they list their own cache. The guidelines are good, but IMHO not really enough.

 

I'm not suggesting new guidelines, or even a test (although that might be a good idea); I just think new cachers should be encouraged to research the game, and the values of our community before they attempt to list a cache of their own.

 

Honestly, I think things are working pretty well right now, but I can see problems in the future. Common sense is a great thing, but it is usually based on common values, and let's face it, the average new cacher has no idea about common sense in the caching community.

 

That's why I think new geocachers should be entitled to some sort of enrollment feature. (The idea of hiding the new cache link, or the tutorial is really hilareous, now that I think about it.)

[+Byron & Anne]

Wonder why it is that all you newbies keep whining about the newbies.

[+budd-rdc]

Honestly, I have to ask, how pervasive IS this problem?

 

Sure, we could all name a few bad apples out of our finds.  If I thought real hard while scrolling through my "found" list, I could probably come up with maybe 20 or 30 caches I've seen over the past two years and change that were either in an off-limits location or had the "200 feet off" problem.  Out of 2500 finds, that barely scratches the 1% mark of all of my cache finds.  Based on my own past experiences I guess I just can't say I even remotely see the need to put 100% of new cachers through more hoops just because a miniscule percentage will screw things up.

 

Am I really that lucky in my past experiences?  Is it really that bad elsewhere?

It seems whenever something new is introduced, there are following phases of people: (grossly simplified)

 

- Pioneers

- Early adopters

- Mass acceptance

 

As much as I hate this observation, the same might be happening with Geocaching. We have just transitioned from the early adopter phase to the mass acceptance phase, especially with so much more media coverage lately.The mass acceptance phase would include more "instant gratify" newbies who might have "pre-misconception" about the sport and ignore guidelines and advice. (sorry for my making words up - I don't want to generalize newbies as arrogant AND ignorant )

 

Some call this growing pains.

 

So far in my area, though, there hasn't been a need to administer tests or force people to understand the guidelines. People who hide frivolously are probably still clueless, but not in a malicious way, and they are in the minority. Many of us tend to follow good examples and are open-minded enough to take advice and suggestion from peers.

 

Before Geocaching grows exponentially let's hope the "instant gratify" newbies go to Waymarking first and leave us Geocachers be.

[4wheelin_fool]

Wonder why it is that all you newbies keep whining about the newbies.

LOL

 

I dont think there is anything wrong with TossedSalad's suggestion to take a one-time test. It can be 20 questions and be humorous too(similar to the one that Briansnat posted) A five minute question and answer session would not cause any hardship because hopefully the hider has spent much longer than that preparing the cache. Yes, people do cheat and ignore rules(such as driving), but I'm NOT ready to allow new drivers to simply check a box to say that they know the rules of driving - and skip a test. A test is just a filter - it wont catch everything, but it will catch some. Plus, reviewing the answers would allow some enlightenment on what people are not understanding about the guidelines.

[+Tharagleb]

Honestly, I have to ask, how pervasive IS this problem?

Well, the very day I started posting in this topic there was a new cache (from a new cacher) that had it's coordinates 1.5 MILES off! How hard is it to click on the map of your cache page and check it out?? That does not prove pervasiveness, but it makes me think. [For a link to the cache page see my post above.]

[tossedsalad]

Studying to play a game??? That attitude is just what the test is intended to prevent!

 

It is a game isn't it? I don't understand what "attitude" you are talking about.

 

Well there is what you said and there is what you meant. You said,

 

I don't want to have to take a test to play a game. This is supposed to be fun. I like to learn new things, but I don't want to have the pressure of studying for a test.

 

You said you didn't want to study for a test. I could not tell that this simple meant you were ok with the studying part and just feel tests are onerous. If you have studied the material, why would taking a test be a problem? Maybe I am just very ok with tests since I have always been good at taking them. But if you know the material, then you should be able to demonstrate that, right?

 

The test won't be required to geocache, just when you want to create a cache. You are supposed to read and understand the guidelines before you place a cache, so you are supposed to do the studying regardless of whether there is a test or not! The point of the test is to make sure you actually did the studying.

 

I read the guidelines. I did the studying. Maybe I don't test well.

Ok, but tests are a part of life. Besides, like I said, you can cache your brains out without taking a test. The test would only be for hiding a cache and getting it listed on gc.com.

 

I remember taking a class in college that was a self paced, unit oriented class. You read a chapter in the book, you took the test, depending on if you passed the test or not you moved on to the next section or repeated the process. This was the easiest class I ever took in school. It was mainly easy because they knew exactly what they wanted to teach. No long winded teachers or books by self-aggrandizing professors, "just the facts, mam'".

 

Unfortunately it looks like I will be starting a new job week after next. If I have the time I will put together 50 questions and we will see how many cachers really know the guidelines.

 

I promise this is my last post. I think the issue has been covered very well and there are those who don't like tests and there are those who don't have a problem with them. I doubt that gc.com cares enough about the issue to actually have a test on the guidelines, so it is a moop point.

[+TotemLake]

As far as being part of the community...In my opinion as soon as you sign on to this site, you are a part of the community.

 

El Diablo

Sure, just like when I move into a new neighborhood, I'm part of a community. The problem as a newbie neighbor goes, I'm still not cognizant of the community politics, the inside story on everybody and everything involved in that "community."

 

I believe that's where ST was driving his point.

 

As a newbie, you may be part of a community, but it takes time to become a part of the community.

Edited October 6, 2005 by TotemLake

[+sept1c_tank]

As far as being part of the community...In my opinion as soon as you sign on to this site, you are a part of the community.

 

El Diablo

Sure, just like when I move into a new neighborhood, I'm part of a community. The problem as a newbie neighbor goes, I'm still not cognizant of the community politics, the inside story on everybody and everything involved in that "community."

 

I believe that's where ST was driving his point.

 

As a newbie, you may be part of a community, but it takes time to become a part of the community.

That's exactly my point.

 

Diablo, it is easy for you (and me) to accept new cachers as part of the community, but from their perspective, they have no automatic feeling that they are part of a community. Thus, they have no real concept of our community's ideals.

 

When I first started caching, I felt I was part of something, but I really didn't know what it was. Actually, it was more like joining a secret club. But because I ventured into these forums soon after I joined this site, I very quickly realized that I was becoming a part of a huge and unique community.

 

The great majority of geocachers around the world never venture into the forums. Basically, their knowledge of geocaching excludes every discussion that has ever been conducted in these forums.

 

A new cacher, who has never found a cache, who has never entered the forums or attended an event is not yet really a member of this community.