I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But...

24.7k · October 15, 2005

Who gets grandfathered? Who will adminster the test? Who makes it official? Will all the listing sites agree on one test?

3.8k · October 15, 2005

Who gets grandfathered?

In my opinion, if there is a test, it should be voluntary and prominently recommended. In this scenario, this question is moot, but hopefully most cachers (new and experienced) would eagerly take the test just to see how they rate with the community norms.

Who will adminster the test?

I’m suggesting that a computerized test should be prominently displayed on this website. This discussion is not really relevant to other websites, but it would be just as desirable for other websites to administer a similar test for their particular expectations and guidelines.

Who makes it official?

The geocaching community sets the norms; on this site, I guess Jeremy would be the official.

Will all the listing sites agree on one test?

Probably not, but why does it matter? They don’t really agree on much right now, and as I said, this discussion is specific to this site.

3.8k · October 15, 2005

Who makes it official?

The geocaching community sets the norms; on this site, I guess Jeremy would be the official.

Actually, now that I mention it, I'm mildly surprised that Jeremy hasn't weighed in on this topic; I would think he would have an opinion on a subject like this.

October 15, 2005

Who makes it official?

The geocaching community sets the norms; on this site, I guess Jeremy would be the official.

Actually, now that I mention it, I'm mildly surprised that Jeremy hasn't weighed in on this topic; I would think he would have an opinion on a subject like this.

So you think silence isn't a response?

October 15, 2005

Who makes it official?

The geocaching community sets the norms; on this site, I guess Jeremy would be the official.

Actually, now that I mention it, I'm mildly surprised that Jeremy hasn't weighed in on this topic; I would think he would have an opinion on a subject like this.

So you think silence isn't a response?

If you think not posting is a response, then what would no response be?

Actually, I don't think Jeremy has been silient. That would be a message with no content, right? Or maybe just a blinking icon. Otherwise how do you know these messages have even been read?

So far Jeremy has chosen not to respond as in not posting or making any other communication. Not the same as silence.

2.5k · October 15, 2005

He'll probably be in here now that you've said something about him.

October 15, 2005

Well, it's not like I said anything about Nazis! Opps, I guess I just did!

11.3k · October 15, 2005

. . .
Who will adminster the test?

I’m suggesting that a computerized test should be prominently displayed on this website. This discussion is not really relevant to other websites, but it would be just as desirable for other websites to administer a similar test for their particular expectations and guidelines. . .

I think this would be a good idea. It could be sort of like those online polls that ask questions on each page before allowing you to continue to the next page.

It could be incorporated in the online form on the Hide and Seek a cache page.

A person couldn't fill out the form until they had worked their way through the guidelines and answered a few questions, such as:

Is this cache on Private Property?
- - If so, do you have permission to place it there?
Are there "No Trespassing" signs between the parking and the cache site?
- - If so, do Geocachers have permission to enter the area?
Have you taken several readings on your GPSr and averaged the coordinates to insure accuracy?
- - Have you double-checked those coordinates to make sure you have not transposed any numbers?
- - Will you double-check those numbers again before hitting the "Submit" button, please . . .

Just a few random thoughts for the questions . . .

2.5k · October 16, 2005

A few random thoughts. That sums up this whole thread.

Why would Groundspeak want to make newcomers pass a test, this would discourage newcomers. And tell me what a large percentage of newcomers do? Why get premium memberships of course. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, the company needs money to maintain itself. But why make it more difficult to start participating in Geocaching by giving a test. This does no one good, cachers are still going to put out bad hides, newbies will be slightly overwhelmed IF they even become a member at all, and Groundspeak will have one more thing to maintain on their website.

I notice their isn't a lot of discussion from moderators in here, looks to me their avoiding this topic like the plague, and with good reason. If this idea of a test was feasible, wouldn't the moderators and Jeremy be interested? I mean, what person in any position of authority has supported this idea?

Edited October 16, 2005 by Airmapper

October 16, 2005

in your own words....

Come on, who is going to try and beat that!!! How many times do we have to kick a dead horse.

2.5k · October 16, 2005

Just one more time.

Edited October 16, 2005 by Airmapper

October 16, 2005

It's not kicking... it's tenderizing... for the BBQ celebrating the end of this thread.

3.8k · October 16, 2005

Someone, someplace, sometime told me horse meat tastes like owl.

I think this would be a good idea. It could be sort of like those online polls that ask questions on each page before allowing you to continue to the next page.

It could be incorporated in the online form on the Hide and Seek a cache page.

A person couldn't fill out the form until they had worked their way through the guidelines and answered a few questions

This might be even better than a test, except it would have to be just a one-time deal; I wouldn't want to bog down the process for for people who tend to place a lot of caches. :blink: :blink:

Edited October 16, 2005 by sept1c_tank

October 16, 2005

Who makes it official?

The geocaching community sets the norms; on this site, I guess Jeremy would be the official.

Actually, now that I mention it, I'm mildly surprised that Jeremy hasn't weighed in on this topic; I would think he would have an opinion on a subject like this.

So you think silence isn't a response?

If you think not posting is a response, then what would no response be?

Actually, I don't think Jeremy has been silient. That would be a message with no content, right? Or maybe just a blinking icon. Otherwise how do you know these messages have even been read?

The thread is two weeks old and several pages long. You think Jeremy just hasn't noticed it yet, or do you think that the silence is deafening?

I'd wager on the latter ... it's just another thread on a tired, old subject (newbies placing caches) that was intended to be controversial (make newbies take a test before allowing them to list a hide), but was really just a bad idea. So why would Jeremy allow himself to be sucked into, or for that matter even acknowledge it, by posting anything at all?

11.3k · October 16, 2005

. . . This might be even better than a test, except it would have to be just a one-time deal; I wouldn't want to bog down the process for for people who tend to place a lot of caches.

Definitely. A "cookie" or something similar, would let the website know the person had already read the guidelines and answered the few, simple, important questions. :blink:

Consequently, they wouldn't have to answer the questions again . . . unless it had been several months, or a year, since the person had last placed a cache. Maybe that would be worthy of a "refreser course." :lol:

October 18, 2005

The thing we have to remember is - each of us gets something different from the geocaching experience.

It don't take us long to learn whose caches are going to be fun and whose we simply avoid because they are not all that exciting.

Every area has someone who decides which caches are ok and which are not. Seems to me they should be the first line fo defense.

Passing a test does not guarentee they will do a perfect cache, nor does finding a certain amount of caches.It just takes some folks longer than others to figure it out.

6.5k · October 19, 2005

We can be proactive and take steps to keep the sport under the radar, or others will do it for us.

Well, to keep the deceased equine metaphor-that horse left the barn a long time ago. :drama: Land Managers know all about geocaching, discuss it at their conferences and meetings, and some even participate! There are policies, both good and bad in at least 15 states, and many many regional and municpal districts. The thing to do at this point is to be proactive and help ensure that good policy is being written, and set good examples for them to see.

I now return you to this inane discussion of a test.

BTW will it be pass/fail or graded on a curve? Will serious cachers need to score higher than the occasional player?

When I took an art history course in college, I took it pass/fail as I didn't plan to be an art critic.

3.8k · October 19, 2005

...Land Managers know all about geocaching, discuss it at their conferences and meetings, and some even participate! There are policies, both good and bad in at least 15 states, and many many regional and municpal districts. The thing to do at this point is to be proactive and help ensure that good policy is being written, and set good examples for them to see.

Wouldn’t a test be a good example?

I now return you to this inane discussion of a test.
BTW will it be pass/fail or graded on a curve? Will serious cachers need to score higher than the occasional player?

If a test occurs, according to the above inane discussion it would be voluntary. Why would serious cachers need to score higher than the occasional player? :drama:

October 19, 2005

can we replace "hide a cache" with "make a forum" post?

2.5k · October 19, 2005

============I wanna start a new topic.============
**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")

Oh, why couldn't you have just listened to those voices.

Do we really need to rehash this, I'm fine with Sept1c Tanks voluntary test, there are dozens of people in here with their own Geocaching sites. A link to this site could be in their sig line for advertising. That would be okay IMO.

However a mandatory test or a highly publicised one that makes you think you need to take it are not what I call a good idea. As I mentioned earlier, I do not think Groundspeak would endorse this, because there is no need.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Airmapper

October 20, 2005

<<<<Another Newbie enters stage left>>>>

I rely heavily on discussions like this one to educate myself; I have exhausted my resources trying to find a half decent "how to book" on the whole topic of Geocaching (or using your GPS in general for that matter). The books out there were written by self proclaimed experts but their writings are easily criticized as lacking in content (somebody, anybody recommend a good book on the topic!). So I have to follow suit on saying explain/educate the mistakes made by any geocacher (new or old) preferably by telling them directly (email or information to anybody reviewing the logged visit). The aforementioned tutorial would be great. As a new cacher myself, the information may be out there (somewhere in a published work) on being a better cacher but nothing beats a hands on practical with an experienced GPS user/cacher. Before I get knocked off my soap box... I hope that my geocashing peers would "release the hounds" the day that I hide my first cache and advise me of any errors so the next lad to venture into the woods wouldn't become discouraged from the sport. Stop policing and educate. Until somebody tells me I've done ti wrong, I'll thnk that it's right. I promise I'll learn from my mistakes (once told).

Until the next beer drop falls...

<<<<Newbie exits stage right>>>>

October 20, 2005

...more on my last...

How about "I spent $500 on a GPSr and don't have a clue how to use it" for a title of a new book...Now somebody just write it! Too many of the books out there dwell on pickingout a GPS, gear and what not; then cram how to use it properly in a few pages. How about some examples of how it's used in the book; a follow through so to speak. Hell I'll even settle for a good avi or mpg if somebody can put it out there. This (GPS TV) is at least a good attempt (excuse the plug made by the website at the end... I ain't got nuttin' to do with them...)

October 20, 2005

I think some of you folk take this a little bit more serious than I do. I am in it for fun.

The fastest way to kill geo caching is to make it less fun by adding stupid, meaningless tests and rules that serve no real purpose other than to discourage new people from being a part of things.

The new people like me don't need a test. What we need is someone who has been doing it a long time to check out our cache. If we did something wrong - let us know what's wrong so we can fix it and make it a good cache for the others that follow.

Tell us nicely - we will listen to suggestions from a nice person much faster. Let us know what is wrong, how it can be fixed and a few off the cuff suggestions.

The more experienced cachers have the oppertunity to be our mentors. Then our next cache will be even better. Eventually we will get it right and we will move on to mentor the next batch of newbies.

Working together is the best way to make this hobby grow and make it better for everyone at the same time.

1.8k · October 20, 2005

How about "I spent $500 on a GPSr and don't have a clue how to use it" for a title of a new book...Now somebody just write it! Too many of the books out there dwell on pickingout a GPS, gear and what not; then cram how to use it properly in a few pages. How about some examples of how it's used in the book; a follow through so to speak.

There's already quite a few--you can try out this book, or this book, or this book, or this book, or this book for help.

(I haven't read any of them, so I can't vouch for exactly what they talk about. But I imagine any of them would be a good place to start.)

I suppose there's always the GPS owner's manual...not that I've ever opened mine.

October 20, 2005

Thanks for the info Team Perks. Some of those books have good reviews too; unlike some of the ones that I have looked at. It's this kind of help that makes things go so much smoother than adding more rules. BTW I just put my order in for the Idiot's Guide (I are one...and idiot...not a guide!). Thanks again for the help.

October 20, 2005

Definitely. A "cookie" or something similar, would let the website know the person had already read the guidelines and answered the few, simple, important questions.

Consequently, they wouldn't have to answer the questions again . . . unless it had been several months, or a year, since the person had last placed a cache. Maybe that would be worthy of a "refreser course."

A cookie would never work - I flush mine on a very regular basis. I would suppose that I am not the only one.

This whole topic is plain silly anyway. Next you'll want to break people into leagues and classes and you'll be debating who should be a minor league vs. major league vs. little league player. Maybe then we can do conferences and really break things down.

Yes, simple hides probably suck when you are experienced - but they are great for the inexperienced. Really great hides suck for the initiate simply because they will never find them.

I vote that the user hider/seeker simply try to document the difficulty/terrain as best they possibly can. Let's keep the rules to a bare minimum - it is the open ended aspect that makes this game fun!

3.8k · October 20, 2005

LowBat, you will find the Idiot's Guide is a great book, and you're right, this is a good way to help those who put forth the effort to come to these forums to get it. The problem is, a huge percentage of geocachers never come to these forums; I'm sure many of the same people would not desire to purchase a book.

Still, I believe this website should prominently encourage new (and old) cachers to participate in some level of tutoring (interactive has been suggested) or test themselves to see how their knowledge stacks up against community norms and expectations.

I really don't see this as a complicating, demeaning or discouraging hurdle for anyone who wishes to cache.

October 20, 2005

I really don't see this as a complicating, demeaning or discouraging hurdle for anyone who wishes to cache.

But it is a hurdle. I know that the site owners probably do this as a labor of love and stuff, but geocaching.com and Groundspeak.com is a business. Businesses strive to bring in customers by removing barriers to trade, not creating them. A mandatory test would be a huge barrier to the new user - who really enjoys taking a test? Imagine having to take a test before you can purchase and play Monopoly.

However - should a quick video download or stream be available with info, that would probably fly. Say a quick 5-10 minute introduction/welcome really quick bit on geocaching. That would actually be nice when trying to explain it to land owners and such as well - esp if it was downloadable.

24.7k · October 20, 2005

...Still, I believe this website should prominently encourage new (and old) cachers to participate in some level of tutoring ...

At work we call that mentoring. Some times you have to browbeat somone into submission before they see the light. We call that mentoring too.

3.8k · October 20, 2005

But it is a hurdle. I know that the site owners probably do this as a labor of love and stuff, but geocaching.com and Groundspeak.com is a business. Businesses strive to bring in customers by removing barriers to trade, not creating them. A mandatory test would be a huge barrier to the new user - who really enjoys taking a test? Imagine having to take a test before you can purchase and play Monopoly.

However - should a quick video download or stream be available with info, that would probably fly. Say a quick 5-10 minute introduction/welcome really quick bit on geocaching. That would actually be nice when trying to explain it to land owners and such as well - esp if it was downloadable.

I'm not advocating a mandatory test; I am not really suggesting a test. Simply, what I'm visualizing is a mechanism (your idea of a video is excellent) to explain some of the finer techniques and ethics of geocaching, available on this site, and highly visible to anyone listing a cache on this website.

The tutorial available on this site, because of it's lesser priority and visibility, would logically be found after they have been invited to list a cache.

Groundspeak already requires you to check two boxes before submitting a new listing. You must read the guidelines (which are designed to guide you through the approval process), and you must read the terms of agreement (which is mostly a liability statement). It’s easy.

As you continue to navigate through the Hide a Cache page, you discover links to help you if your cache isn’t approved in 72 hours. And then there is a link about how you might place a commercial cache. Only then do you come across a link to the quick tutorial about how do I place a cache.

The mechanism, arguably a good one, is already there. Why would it be such a hurdle to check one more box, confirming that you have read the tutorial (that could easily incorporate a voluntary test) before you can submit your new cache?

11.3k · October 20, 2005

. . . However - should a quick video download or stream be available with info, that would probably fly. Say a quick 5-10 minute introduction/welcome really quick bit on geocaching. That would actually be nice when trying to explain it to land owners and such as well - esp if it was downloadable.

There is no way, with my 24K dialup connection to the Internet, I can download a video . . . And, I'm not the only one who still suffers with a very slow dialup connection to the Internet.

I agree with the OP

The mechanism, arguably a good one, is already there. Why would it be such a hurdle to check one more box, confirming that you have read the tutorial (that could easily incorporate a voluntary test) before you can submit your new cache?

I think newbies would much rather read a quick tutorial and learn about how to place their first cache than find out they made a mistake that had the first finders looking 80' away in a parking lot, or wandering around on Private Property, or looking for a dog-pooped-filled cache that had been sabotaged by an angry homeowner near a Private Park.

2.5k · October 20, 2005

There is no way, with my 24K dialup connection to the Internet, I can download a video . . . And, I'm not the only one who still suffers with a very slow dialup connection to the Internet.

Ditto, at 21600bps, not gonna happen for me.

A video is nice, but only high speed and broadband users could get any use out if it.

6.5k · October 20, 2005

This whole topic is plain silly anyway. Yes, simple hides probably suck when you are experienced - but they are great for the inexperienced. Really great hides suck for the initiate simply because they will never find them.

I vote that the user hider/seeker simply try to document the difficulty/terrain as best they possibly can. Let's keep the rules to a bare minimum - it is the open ended aspect that makes this game fun!

Congratulations! You have passed the test.

BTW One could argue that after 3+ years and a four digit find count that I may be somewhat experienced. Yet I enjoy different hides at different times, and try to arrange to seek the great ones when I'm only in the mood for those so as not to waste the moment! Last Sunday I was just happy to be outside finding caches; so they were all great in that frame of mind. Had I been in the mood for a serious hike, I would not have targeted those particular ones to seek.

But to keep on the topic of placing or finding great hides requiring great experience, nah-check out the numbers of many of the finders of Tube Torcher.

Sure lots of big game hunters have logged this epic hunt, but there are also plenty of smileys from cachers with 20, 139, 165 finds. Oh and the owner has a whopping 31! Good thing we didn't require him to find a couple of hundred before he dreamed this one up.

Geez, does this means that the test will have to be essay, not T/F or multiple guess so we can understand what someone means by 'great' 'epic' 'view' or any other superlative they choose to use on a cache page?

October 21, 2005

The problem is, a huge percentage of geocachers never come to these forums; I'm sure many of the same people would not desire to purchase a book.

My buds (thanks Lone Digger and Caschekicker ) got me into geocaching by informing me about the "whole package"...the forums, the books, the websites and whatnot. This allowed me to educate myself a little more, rather than to jump into the water head first without looking, so to speak. I have even pondered buying my GPS for about a year, checking out reviews and reading forums like this one. It wasn't until I went on a few caches with other experienced folks did I get my own GPS and register for any of the available forums out there (this one I prefer the most...{pat, pat}). Oh well, a few more hunted caches under my belt and I might hide a few myself. Might put a private test (beta version) cache out there and just have my buds track it down in order to field their criticism first; nuttin' stopping anybody doing that either, then post a real to release into the wild.

Keep the thoughts coming, I know for sure that I'm the type to learn from the good and the bad.

Thxs.

October 21, 2005

...see I even messed up posting the quote that I wanted to use.

What a freakin' newbie I am.

6.5k · October 22, 2005

Pssst lobat it's "

blahblahblahblahblah[/quote]"

October 22, 2005

Here's an alternative 'solution', or at least mitigating factor. Have Jeremy implement a finders rating system. Those who are brave to go out after new caches can rank the cache. Those not wanting to waste time, could filter out caches not ranked or ranked lower than their tolerance threshold. Hiders would get anonymous feedback on the quality of their hides (some people are too nice to just openly dish out the uncompliments about bad ones, but would probably be willing to rank the cache because their rank goes into the aggregate rank). This type system has worked well for Amazon. I think it would here.

-ChssAddct

October 22, 2005

As a "n00b"(less than 20 finds) I find this sport very fun and healthy. I have already recieved a welcome email from one of the older members in the area and am planning my first hide. However when I place my first one I plan to check it from a few different directions on different days. After I think I have my coords right and BEFORE submitting I plan to ask said member to check my hide for me.

A. to be sure I have to coords right , and

B. to make sure that it is placed properly.

Only then do I plan to submit for approval of my first hide. Now, if more people would offer to do this for the newer players it would cut down on SOME of the bad hides and coords.I think that would be test enough.

2.5k · October 22, 2005

I think that newbie cachers try harder to place good caches. Some people just get too comfortable placing them and make bad hides. IMO newbies sren't much of a problem if any.

BTW, Welcome ChssAddct and FirewalkerZ5, I see that both of you are new posters.

October 24, 2005

I have been reading this thread with great interest because at one point, I did email the admin about this problem and felt that newbies should have at least 10 finds under their belt before they go hiding a new cache.

That being said, let me give you all some background info. I am from the US where I did a lot of geocaching. 3 years ago I moved to Turkey and thought 'great, I can still geocache there!' When I arrived, there were about 20 caches in the whole country! In the last 3 years, that number has doubled. 'Yah!' you think, but not really.

The Turks who leave a geocache have only found 0-3 caches at the most. When I've tried looking for their caches, they are placed in an unsuitable area, are poorly camoflauged, are cheap containers that don't seal well, are so off in the coordinates that they have you out looking in the water (by that I mean the Dardanelles Strait), and generally cause more misery and frustration than the 'thrill of the hunt' is worth.

I got so frustrated with geocaching in Turkey, I almost gave up geocaching entirely. So I ranted and raved to a geocaching admin who calmly and politely (and amusedly I'm sure) read my ranting and raving email and then thoughtfully responded. He pointed out that geocaching was going through a growing stage in Turkey unlike other more developed areas of geocaching and that the Turks have to learn just like everyone else has. Point taken.

So depending where I am, I evaluate my geocaching focus. If in Turkey, it's to place good caches. If in London, to hone geocaching skills, especially those micros, and when in the US, anything goes.

October 24, 2005

felt that newbies should have at least 10 finds under their belt before they go hiding a new cache.

Odd comment that .... I've noticed here in the London ( UK ) area that there are people who place caches and those that seek them and many who do both. Some who place them hardly ever do a cache themselves yet their caches are brilliant. So go with the flow.

If in London, to hone geocaching skills, especially those micros

Now I do understand this comment. The UK ( and London in particular ) is a tight crowded place and the shere inventiveness in some hiding places is brilliant.

October 25, 2005

I am ammazed some people took the time to set up an account. If they made a tutorial, not a test, that took as long as it did to sign up for your account, that you had to go through only once before hiding your first cache, it might make just a few of them better.

3.8k · October 25, 2005

...The Turks who leave a geocache have only found 0-3 caches at the most. When I've tried looking for their caches, they are placed in an unsuitable area, are poorly camoflauged, are cheap containers that don't seal well, are so off in the coordinates that they have you out looking in the water (by that I mean the Dardanelles Strait), and generally cause more misery and frustration than the 'thrill of the hunt' is worth.

I got so frustrated with geocaching in Turkey, I almost gave up geocaching entirely. So I ranted and raved to a geocaching admin who calmly and politely (and amusedly I'm sure) read my ranting and raving email and then thoughtfully responded. He pointed out that geocaching was going through a growing stage in Turkey unlike other more developed areas of geocaching and that the Turks have to learn just like everyone else has. Point taken...

I think you illustrate an interesting point.

I wonder how many geocachers around the world don’t speak English? I wonder how many cachers have a general understanding of our hobby, but don’t read the guidelines/tutorial and just check the appropriate boxes because they are linguistically challenged?

I know there is a Spanish version of at least part of this website, but I can’t seem to find it right now. I’ve never looked close enough to see if the guidelines and the tutorial are translated there. I have no idea if there are other language versions of this site.

I’d be willing to bet there is not a Turkish version. :unsure: :huh:

1.8k · October 25, 2005

I’d be willing to bet there is not a Turkish version.

At least there's a Turkish version of the Earthcaching site... :laughing:

October 25, 2005

oh why wont this thread die? Go outside and cache! Hide one, find one, just go outside, leave your monitors warm glow and get muddy.

/stuck at work

//freaking out

///hate rules

////love slashes

6.5k · October 25, 2005

There is also a turkish version of sit-ups. At least that's what we told the freshmen on the lacrosse team. :laughing:

3.9k · October 25, 2005

The topic from hell...just won't die.

El Diablo

3.8k · October 25, 2005

The topic from hell...just won't die.

El Diablo

I suppose you would be the authority on that.

If people want this topic to go away, all they have to do is not post. :blink: :lol:

October 25, 2005

The topic from hell...just won't die.

El Diablo

Exactly!!!

No test! No test! No test! ... Everyone that wants to test noobs didn't ask about a test or qualifications when they applied for their caching license. Why look down on others now? :blink:

EA Sports: It's In the Game!!!

:lol:

October 26, 2005

I can't believe it is still going....What about the icon for passing the test? :blink:

I Hate Rules As Much As The Next Guy, But...

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