"american" Dates On Geocaching.com

[+reveritt]

...

 

Calenders starting with Sunday each week. A week starts with Monday according to us.

 

...

That practice seems odd, even to many Americans. We call Saturday and Sunday "the weekend." The predominant religion is Christianity, in which most denominations think of Sunday as the Sabbath (the seventh day).

 

It's very interesting how ancient traditions have been maintained in measuring time. The whole twelve-hour/sixty minute thing goes back to ancient Babylon, where they had a base-twelve number system. And the months are still based on the Roman calendar, which was odd, and not especially accurate. The only time units we are really stuck with are the natural day and year. The others are arbitrary, and could be decimalized if we wished, but not even the Europeans are suggesting that (I hope).

Edited July 15, 2005 by reveritt

[+AuntieWeasel]

No, Auntie--four pecks in a bushel--eight dry quarts in a peck.

Shoot. No wonder I always washed out in 4H.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Examples of strange things at geocaching.com:

 

Calenders starting with Sunday each week. A week starts with Monday according to us.

 

mm/dd/yy - no, it should be yy-mm-dd according to us.

 

am/pm - Nope, a clock has 24 hours and there is no need for am or pm.

 

miles - Hmm, even the british people are changing the miles into km's nowadays...

 

And I haven't mentioned that we can place caches at places you are not allowed to

I hate calendars that start on Monday. Even worse are those calendars with Saturday and Sunday sharing one box. Hello! I do more stuff on the weekend so I really need more space to write it!

Edited July 15, 2005 by Team GPSaxophone

[+reveritt]

It should be possible to implement date format as a personal preference. Dates are almost certainly stored in the database as integers (julian dates), or something such, and must be reformatted for display. It would be a bit of work to implement, but perhaps it can be assigned a priority for some future release of the GC.COM application.

 

How about it, Jeremy?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

...

 

Calenders starting with Sunday each week. A week starts with Monday according to us.

 

...

That practice seems odd, even to many Americans. We call Saturday and Sunday "the weekend." The predominant religion is Christianity, in which most denominations think of Sunday as the Sabbath (the seventh day).

Yes, Saturday and Sunday are weekend days, one is the front end the other is the back end. Think of them like bookends, you put one at each end of the week.

[Team Armadillo]

Life would have been much better if we all had six fingers on each hand.

 

Like this guy?

 

"Hello, My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father. Prepare to Die"

[+deimos444]

I am curious about paper checks. How is that done elsewhere?

In Norway, everyone gets their salaries directly deposited into their bank accounts - it has been like that since the 1970s. Paper checks have been very scarce for the last 15 years. If I wish to send money to a company or a friend (domestic or abroad), I arrange an electronic transfer in my Internet bank. While paying in shops, I use my debit or credit card for everything but small amounts (less than, say, US$ 10). Trying to pay with a check or large amounts of banknotes is regarded as somewhat dubious...

 

I do some work for a US cutting-edge technology company, but for some very strange reason they are unable to pay me in any other way than paper checks. Cashing them in Norway is very impractical. I've found out that the best way to get any money from the checks is to sell them at eBay as souvenirs...

Do you guys really get 3 to 6 months vacation every year?

[+blazius]

Do you guys really get 3 to 6 months vacation every year?

The majority of Norwegians have a vacation of 25 working days (that is 5 weeks for people with Staurdays off). Some have slightly less if they work at a place where neither the employer nor any of the employees are organized in unions (I think the legal minimum is 20 days vacation per year). Technically, the vacation is unpaid, but employers are required to hold back a small percentage of the salaries until the employee takes his holiday. The result is that the employer gets about the same amount into his account every month, regardless of vacations.

 

In addition, there's the (paid) holidays: 1st of January, 3 days around Easter, Ascension (sp.?) day, one day after Lent, 1st of May, 17th of May (Constitution day), Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Most people get either Christmas Eve or New Years Eve off as well. Government employees get one day's paid holiday between Christmas and New Year as a "Christmas present".

 

This adds up to about 6 and a half weeks of holidays and vacation per year - about one and a half months. I guess this is not a world record..

 

However, Norway can boast about one of the world's most family-friendly Work Laws: Parents who have worked for at least 6 of the last 10 months before having a baby are entitled to 10 months of fully paid paternity/maternity leave (paid by the government). At least one of the months must be taken by the father.

Edited July 15, 2005 by blazius

[+Polk Street Bandits]

American's don't have it so bad... The poor Europeans take their vacations entire countries at the same time - that pretty much means if you don't leave with every one else at your "appointed time" then you can't eat or go to the movies at home... And if you leave at your appointed time, it's really crowded (everyone goes to Southern Spain or Italy). If the French farmers have a strike - you spend your whole vacation on the road looking at sheep.

 

In the US, we have it great - we sit at work from 9-5 for 70% of the week, but type on geocaching.com the whole time... some of us get 15 or so company holidays (christmas, new year, turkey day, etc) plus 2 or 3 weeks vacation... It's not 3 months off, but at least we can take it when we want.

[+deimos444]

 

In the US, we have it great - we sit at work from 9-5 for 70% of the week, but type on geocaching.com the whole time... some of us get 15 or so company holidays (christmas, new year, turkey day, etc) plus 2 or 3 weeks vacation... It's not 3 months off, but at least we can take it when we want.

Shhhh!

I think the Engineering Manager here might be eavesdropping.

He is a muggle after all

I would hate to get kicked just before the weekend.

Seriously, 9 paid holidays and 3 weeks vacation isn't too bad.

I do miss the pizza for excellant production months.

Silicon Valley will never be as much fun as it once was.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I am curious about paper checks. How is that done elsewhere?

In Norway, everyone gets their salaries directly deposited into their bank accounts - it has been like that since the 1970s. Paper checks have been very scarce for the last 15 years. If I wish to send money to a company or a friend (domestic or abroad), I arrange an electronic transfer in my Internet bank. While paying in shops, I use my debit or credit card for everything but small amounts (less than, say, US$ 10). Trying to pay with a check or large amounts of banknotes is regarded as somewhat dubious...

 

I do some work for a US cutting-edge technology company, but for some very strange reason they are unable to pay me in any other way than paper checks. Cashing them in Norway is very impractical. I've found out that the best way to get any money from the checks is to sell them at eBay as souvenirs...

Do you guys really get 3 to 6 months vacation every year?

3 to 6 months of vacation isn't very much

 

I only work about 160 days a year...yes, that means I'm off 200+ days a year Not bad for a full-time job

[+Right Wing Wacko]

60 is very good 1/2 is 30, 1/3 is 20, 1/4 is 15, 1/5 is 12, 1/6 is 10.

Yea.... but 30 fingers on each hand would look really weird!

[+hedberg]

Do you guys really get 3 to 6 months vacation every year?

The majority of Norwegians have a vacation of 25 working days (that is 5 weeks for people with Staurdays off). Some have slightly less if they work at a place where neither the employer nor any of the employees are organized in unions (I think the legal minimum is 20 days vacation per year). Technically, the vacation is unpaid, but employers are required to hold back a small percentage of the salaries until the employee takes his holiday. The result is that the employer gets about the same amount into his account every month, regardless of vacations.

 

In addition, there's the (paid) holidays: 1st of January, 3 days around Easter, Ascension (sp.?) day, one day after Lent, 1st of May, 17th of May (Constitution day), Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Most people get either Christmas Eve or New Years Eve off as well. Government employees get one day's paid holiday between Christmas and New Year as a "Christmas present".

 

This adds up to about 6 and a half weeks of holidays and vacation per year - about one and a half months. I guess this is not a world record..

 

However, Norway can boast about one of the world's most family-friendly Work Laws: Parents who have worked for at least 6 of the last 10 months before having a baby are entitled to 10 months of fully paid paternity/maternity leave (paid by the government). At least one of the months must be taken by the father.

In Sweden do people have about 5 weeks paid vacation. Almost free healthcare - you pay like an entrance fee somewhere around $11, and everything is for free. Xray, surgery and so on... Medicine are sub-sidary. If you are elderly and/or handicaped, you can get free taxirides or pay like $3 for each ride.

 

If you are gonna have a baby, the mother can go home 2 moths before expected labour if she wants and have a demanding work. Of course paid!

When the baby is born do the father have 10 days paid withint he first month or so. The company can't refuse you take this time off - it is in the law book!

The parents have a total of 600 days paid to stay home with the newborn. You can split the days almost however you want.

 

If the company you works for goes bankrupt, the government will pay you money for a few months until you find a new work. If you get unemployed - don't worry. The government will pay your flat etc.

 

You are allowed to walk everywhere, you can't almost trespass in Sweden. You are allowed to walk - and even camp - on other peoples property!

 

We have 25% VAT (Value Added Tax), a bottle of alcohol beverage costs you about $50/each in the store - of course is it only sold in government controlled stores! Cigarettes costs also a lot, and you are not allowed to smoke in the restaurants, pubs etc. Sweds are taxed to death, and they all complain about it but still they pay the tax.

 

Volvo and Saabs cost much more to buy here in Sweden, and they are made here! A Volvo can cost about $7000 more here in Goteborg where it is built, than buying the same car in the US!

 

But do you americans know what the worst thing about our country is? We Sweds have never experienced the Swedish Sin nor Swedish Bikini Team. Those things are myths...

 

[+AuntieWeasel]

But do you americans know what the worst thing about our country is? We Sweds have never experienced the Swedish Sin nor Swedish Bikini Team. Those things are myths...

I shall refrain from drawing a line between your enormous taxes and your enormous social programs, assuming you are well aware of the connection, but I must ask: the Swedish Sin? What is this?

 

Google turned up lots of references, but no definition. It apparently dates to the fifties, and may simply be a reputation for sexual license. I was hoping I was going to learn something interesting and specific. This site was pretty funny, though:

The Swedish sin

 

Sinning is very Swedish. At least many think this. Why do people think this? We should find out!

 

Once, a Swedish person showed her breasts in an old film. She was on a beach and also hugged a man a lot. Maybe that helped? Maybe Swedish girls like sex more than girls from for instance another country? Or is it because Swedish people look good and have lots of sex with each other? Maybe. We tried to learn more but you can't ask people questions like this. Why? It's too personal! They only get embarrassed!

 

Maybe now you want to learn more about Sweden? Don’t be afraid to ask us at lingonord@ling.su.se. We should not bite you! Yes we should! Haha, no we don’t bite people. It was a joke. (maybe)

[+Bob Blaylock]

The predominant religion is Christianity, in which most denominations think of Sunday as the Sabbath (the seventh day).

  That's not quite correct.  Saturday is, and has always been, the seventh day.  Jews, Moslems, and a few scattered Christian sects (most notably, those that have “Seventh Day” as part of their name) still observe Saturday as the Sabbath.  At some point in the first century or two AD, most of Christianity switched to observing the Sabbath on the first day, rather than the seventh.  I'm not entirely clear on why, when, or how this change occurred, but I think it has something to do with Christ having been resurrected on that day.

 

  I note that in some languages, the word for the day that we call Saturday bears an obvious relationship to the word Sabbath.  For example, in Spanish, Saturday is called “Sabado”.

[+Bob Blaylock]

In Sweden do people have about 5 weeks paid vacation. Almost free healthcare - you pay like an entrance fee somewhere around $11, and everything is for free. Xray, surgery and so on... Medicine are sub-sidary. If you are elderly and/or handicaped, you can get free taxirides or pay like $3 for each ride.

 

If you are gonna have a baby, the mother can go home 2 moths before expected labour if she wants and have a demanding work. Of course paid!

When the baby is born do the father have 10 days paid withint he first month or so. The company can't refuse you take this time off - it is in the law book!

The parents have a total of 600 days paid to stay home with the newborn. You can split the days almost however you want.

 

If the company you works for goes bankrupt, the government will pay you money for a few months until you find a new work. If you get unemployed - don't worry. The government will pay your flat etc.

  Nothing is free.  You pay much, much, much more in taxes to support these “free” benefits than you would pay for them if you paid for them directly out of your own pocket.  Socialism is probably the single biggest, foulest, and most oppressive scam ever devised by Mankind; a way to make people almost complete slaves to the government without even realizing that they are enslaved.

[+Tidalflame]

Hm. Speaking as a Canadian, I didn't know there were international standards for dates. I don't really care how dates are written, as 90% of the time you can figure out the order based on the numbers.

 

Honestly, thanks to Google Calculator, I never worry about units anymore. In Canada, pretty much everything is in metric. When I'm on the computer, if I want to convert things I merely need to type "10 kilometres in miles" (or whatever I want to convert) into the search bar and Google will convert if for me.

 

I've also been taught that Sunday is the start of the week. I suppose it's mostly because that's the leftmost day on a calendar. My family isn't Christian in the least.

 

Oh, and my father is from Sweden. I've been there several times, it's a great country.

Edited July 17, 2005 by Tidalflame

[+BalkanSabranje]

I've also been taught that Sunday is the start of the week. I suppose it's mostly because that's the leftmost day on a calendar.

Is it?

 

Never seen something like that before. Looks like the reason's gotta be the other way 'round...

 

BS/2

[+blazius]

I don't really care how dates are written, as 90% of the time you can figure out the order based on the numbers.

Let's say one of my daughters was born 01.06.05. (a too common way of writing dates in Norway). How old would she be today?

 

With regards to the ordering of the days of the week, different countries and cultures have different traditions. But the international standard (set by the International Organization for Standardization (of which both Canada and the U.S. are members)) defines that the week begins on Mondays. Some Northern Americans might not like it, though.

[+Glenn]

<snip>

With regards to the ordering of the days of the week, different countries and cultures have different traditions. But the international standard (set by the International Organization for Standardization (of which both Canada and the U.S. are members)) defines that the week begins on Mondays. Some Northern Americans might not like it, though.

One of the great things about being an American is that just because our government agrees to do something it <i>doesn't</i> mean that the citizens have agreed to do it too.

[+blazius]

We do not have a different country touching all of our state boarders, many states are bigger than your little countries...shoot all of Europe could fit into many of our single states.

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea. As for me, I'm quite happy that Norway have (land) borders towards three very different countries - Sweden, Finland and Russia. Together with a growing immigrant population Norway is gifted with lots of cultural diversity.

 

With regards to land area, Europe is 10,600,000 km² while the U.S. is 9,161,923 km². The eight largest U.S. states (Alaska (1,481,347 km²), Texas (678,051 km²), California (403,933 km²) Montana (376,979 km²), New Mexico (314,309 km²), Arizona (294,312 km²), Nevada (284,448 km²) and Colorado (268,627 km²)) together are still smaller (4,102,006 km²) than the European part of Russia (4,303,000 km²).

[+blazius]

One of the great things about being an American is that just because our government agrees to do something it <i>doesn't</i> mean that the citizens have agreed to do it too.

That applies to any group of people, doesn't it?

Edited July 17, 2005 by blazius

[+BalkanSabranje]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.  As for me, I'm quite happy that Norway have (land) borders towards three very different countries - Sweden, Finland and Russia.  Together with a growing immigrant population Norway is gifted with lots of cultural diversity.

Similar here.

Austria is quite small (just about 83,000 km²), but has borders to eight different countries (D, CZ, SK, HU, SLO, I, FL, CH) in which seven different languages are major official languages - and we love it!

 

BalkanSabranje

Edited July 17, 2005 by BalkanSabranje

[+AuntieWeasel]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.

Nonsense. You wish to have that impression, because it suits your prejudices. As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants, many of them recent, you aren't going to out-diversity us. You don't have enough room to.

 

You could easily have asked your original question without the "odd & peculiar" and "prevailing US taste" remarks. Yet you chose to pick fights.

 

Why is that?

[+reveritt]

... but I must ask: the Swedish Sin? What is this? ...

Enough about politics...let's get back to sin! I know what "the English vice" is, but I am still waiting for an explanation of the "Swedish sin."

 

...It apparently dates to the fifties, and may simply be a reputation for sexual license....

 

You mean the Swedes even have a tax on THAT?

 

Sex reminds me of dates, which in turn reminds me of the original topic of this thread.

 

So Jeremy...whaddyathink?

[+deimos444]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea. As for me, I'm quite happy that Norway have (land) borders towards three very different countries - Sweden, Finland and Russia. Together with a growing immigrant population Norway is gifted with lots of cultural diversity.

 

Dude, come to North Central California sometime.

You don't have a clue as to cultural diversity if your only contact is 3 European Countries.

I am presently at a Borders Book Store in San Mateo,CA and there are at least 7 different cultural bents just in the cafe.

Don't even try to talk about immigration.

Us white folks are a minority around here now.

[+cachew nut]

You are allowed to walk everywhere, you can't almost trespass in Sweden. You are allowed to walk - and even camp - on other peoples property!

 

How do they get past the barbed wire and dogs?

 

the European part of Russia (4,303,000 km²).

 

Perhaps geography-wise there is a small portion of Russia that might fit that description, but I always considered Russia to be a part of Asia before considering it part of Europe. I guess there's that Kaliningrad part, suprised nobody has tried to reclaim that yet. It's not part of the EU, not sure if that organization is a good enough measuring stick however, as it's future appears to still be a bit shakey.

 

Europe

Asia

Edited July 17, 2005 by cachew nut

[+Glenn]

<snip>

As for me, I'm quite happy that Norway have (land) borders towards three very different countries - Sweden, Finland and Russia.  Together with a growing immigrant population Norway is gifted with lots of cultural diversity.

<snip>

You seem to enjoy the cultural diversity in your country. However you don't seem to enjoy the cultural diversity that the US brings to the internet. The odd & peculiar US style of mm/dd/yyyy, imperial units, paper checks, conservative government are all part of the US culture and you want us to change to be more like some international standard. Where is the diversity in that.

 

I think you will find that the predominant attitude in the USofA is that if what we are doing is different from the rest of the world then it must be the right thing to do.

[+Glenn]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.

Nonsense. You wish to have that impression, because it suits your prejudices. As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants, many of them recent, you aren't going to out-diversity us. You don't have enough room to.

<snip>

Ain't that the truth. The states in the USofA used to be as seperate as the states (countries) of Europe. The each had their own laws, currency, customs, etc. Then, the states of america formed in to the United States of America. Each state has kept a lot its culture and customs which makes each state unique. There are some national laws, but a more laws are made at the state level making each state in the Union unique. For example, South Carolina is in the process of banning geocaching in their state. But, Nevada has proclamed one day out of the year as geocaching day. Some things were nationalized for the common good. Money being one example. Reminds me of what Europe is going through right now with the formation of the European Union.

 

Edited for Speling.

Edited July 17, 2005 by Bushwhacked Glenn

[+Glenn]

One of the great things about being an American is that just because our government agrees to do something it <i>doesn't</i> mean that the citizens have agreed to do it too.

That applies to any group of people, doesn't it?

Now where did I put my feathered cap. I hope I'm not late for the tea party in Boston Harbor.

[+BalkanSabranje]

Europe

Asia

If that's what your children learn, I'm really not surprised to see so many misunderstandings between Europeans and US citizens.

 

Europe as a continent stretches from the Ural mountains (central Russia) to the Atlantic:

 

 

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

[+Wacka]

For Americans to get an idea size wise, If London is where Denver is, the Instanbul is where NYC is.

Size wise, European countries are like states. France is about the size of Texas. The World Book Encyclopedia used to show the country supeimposed on a US map to get an idea of the relative sizes.

[+deimos444]

 

I think you will find that the predominant attitude in the USofA is that if what we are doing is different from the rest of the world then it must be the right thing to do.

Yup!

Just a bunch of irrespectful cowboys.

And we seem to assimilate immigrants into this tradition.

How many other countries can say the same?

Uh, lets exclude mainland China.Ok?

[+cachew nut]

If that's what your children learn, I'm really not surprised to see so many misunderstandings between Europeans and US citizens.

 

Europe as a continent stretches from the Ural mountains (central Russia) to the Atlantic:

 

 

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Perhaps, but European children learn the wrong lessons too. Europe isn't a continent on it's own, it's basically a subcontinent of the Eurasian continent, a peninsula, if you will, of a much larger landmass.

 

If I recall, the Europeans did not like the idea of not having their own continent and having to be a less significant subcontinent. To get even with the Americans who knew this, they started the rumor that both North America and South America are just one continent.

 

Now, everyone knows this is foolish, since continents are geologically determined by the six tectonic plates: Eurasian, African, North American, South American, Antartic and Australian.

 

Geographers, unlike geologists, felt that the Europeans have enough troubles of their own, and drew up some maps for the Europeans so that they would think they had their own continent, winking to the rest of the world at their inside joke. Now the cat's out of the bag, I hope it doesn't turn into a bad hair day for you.

 

All this is moot however, as I was essentially describing how I perceived Russia as a nation of people, geo-politically, if you will.

Edited July 18, 2005 by cachew nut

[+BalkanSabranje]

Now the cat's out of the bag, I hope it doesn't turn into a bad hair day for you.

If you risk a closer look at our avatar you'll notice that there isn't much hair that could get worse...

 

All this is moot however, as I was essentially describing how I perceived Russia as a nation of people, geo-politically, if you will.

And I was just referring to the wrong information the quoted website (http://www.yourchildlearns.com/europe_map.htm) gives.

 

BS/2

[+blazius]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.

Nonsense. You wish to have that impression, because it suits your prejudices.

Please, don't be prejudiced about my prejudices. My statement was a reply to 2oldfarts' message:

We do not have a different country touching all of our state boarders

In its context, I understood this as a "sigh of relief" from 2oldfarts, believing that (s)he is lucky to don't have to deal with lots of neighbours. I might be wrong.

 

In any case, my statement was about 2oldfarts' opinions, not about the opinions of U.S. citizens as a group. (Hmmm... doesn't the English language have any easy way of discriminating between the singular and plural forms of the word "you")?

 

As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants,

Do you regard those who lived in the U.S. before Columbus arrived as immigrants? If so, could you please name any nations which are not composed entirely of immigrants?

 

many of them recent, you aren't going to out-diversity us. You don't have enough room to.

The U.S. has a population density of 31 per km². Norway has a population density of 14/km². We have room for lots of immigrants. (Yes, I know that Norway is not representative of Europe. )

 

You could easily have asked your original question without the "odd & peculiar" and "prevailing US taste" remarks.

It should probably be evident from my (lack of) orthography and writing style, but English is a foreign language to me. My Norwegain-English/English-Norwegian dictionary does not have any negatively loaded translations of "odd", "peculiar" or "prevailing taste". Lots of people's habits (regardless of their nationality) seem odd, peculiar or funny to me. Is it rude to say so? It has not been my intention to insult anyone's cultural preferences, just to say that it is not always very practical to insist using them in an international setting.

 

Yet you chose to pick fights.  Why is that?

I believe that it is sound to challenge people's world picture at times. I enjoy an intelligent discussion, but I don't appreciate mindless quarrels and name-calling.

[+blazius]

You seem to enjoy the cultural diversity in your country. However you don't seem to enjoy the cultural diversity that the US brings to the internet.

Your last statement is a misunderstanding. But I do think that the geocaching.com web site, who attracts users from almost all the countries in the world, should use international standards as much as possible. The web site could then offer people to use the units/map datums/elipsoids/languages/date notations they prefer, but the international standards should be the default.

 

Åff kårs, æss æ nårvidsjn, ai kudd sjuus tu spell mai inglisj akkårding tu nårvidsjn spælling ruuls. Bøtt dzætt vuddnt bi verri isi tu rid får ådders, vudd itt? (Of course, as a Norwegian, I could choose to spell my English according to Norwegian spelling rules. But that would not be very easy to read for others, would it?)

Edited July 18, 2005 by blazius

[+Indotguy]

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.

Nonsense. You wish to have that impression, because it suits your prejudices. As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants, many of them recent, you aren't going to out-diversity us. You don't have enough room to.

 

You could easily have asked your original question without the "odd & peculiar" and "prevailing US taste" remarks. Yet you chose to pick fights.

 

Why is that?

Pardon me, but I believe many native American Indians could take offense to part of your statement ("As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants..."). Or does not considering the natives of this country Americans suit YOUR prejudices?

[+AuntieWeasel]

Do you regard those who lived in the U.S. before Columbus arrived as immigrants?  If so, could you please name any nations which are not composed entirely of immigrants?

Native Americans are citizens of their own nations, their reservations being regarded as sovereign nations with their own laws. Which is why they can do things, like build casinos and sell cigarettes without taxes, which would be illegal in the US.

 

It should probably be evident from my (lack of) orthography and writing style, but English is a foreign language to me.  My Norwegain-English/English-Norwegian dictionary does not have any negatively loaded translations of "odd", "peculiar" or "prevailing taste".  Lots of people's habits (regardless of their nationality) seem odd, peculiar or funny to me.  Is it rude to say so?

Well...yes. And it has nothing to do with language. I travel abroad a good deal, and I'm careful not to say anything that comes across as, "you people do things differently than we do at home. That's weird. Why don't you change?" It's an inherently provincial (and whiny and rude) outlook, even if you put a label like "ISO" on it (which many regard as less a serious standards body than a meaningless bureaucratic fee-generating engine). There are excellent reasons to use the YYYYMMDD date format. "Because my people do it that way" isn't one of them.

 

I believe that it is sound to challenge people's world picture at times.

And I believe that's another way of saying "picking fights."

[+blazius]

Native Americans are citizens of their own nations, their reservations being regarded as sovereign nations with their own laws. Which is why they can do things, like build casinos and sell cigarettes without taxes, which would be illegal in the US.

Hmmm. Are these Native Americans denied U.S. passports? Do any countries or recognized international bodies acknowledge the reservations as sovereign nations?

 

There are excellent reasons to use the YYYYMMDD date format. "Because my people do it that way" isn't one of them.

Many Norwegians (and Europeans) don't use the ISO format - yet. I'm an ISO 8601 advocate because I believe this standard is sensible - not because I grew up with it or because everyone around me use it. I am currently working with my employer (a government agency) to change our dating conventions from DD.MM.YY to YYYY-MM-DD. It is a tough struggle, but once people are illuminated , they seldom revert to their old ways.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Native Americans are citizens of their own nations, their reservations being regarded as sovereign nations with their own laws. Which is why they can do things, like build casinos and sell cigarettes without taxes, which would be illegal in the US.

Hmmm. Are these Native Americans denied U.S. passports? Do any countries or recognized international bodies acknowledge the reservations as sovereign nations?

Tribes vary in sovereignty and the extent to which they are recognized by the US. Some tribes do issue their own passports and driver's licenses. Some individuals opt for dual citizenship (which is common for naturalized Americans from all sorts of places). Basically, most Indians are as American as they want to be (which, I suppose, is like philosophical immigration). It's a sort of "it's the least we can do" thing. I have no idea how other nations view this.

 

There are excellent reasons to use the YYYYMMDD date format. "Because my people do it that way" isn't one of them.

Many Norwegians (and Europeans) don't use the ISO format - yet. I'm an ISO 8601 advocate because I believe this standard is sensible - not because I grew up with it or because everyone around me use it. I am currently working with my employer (a government agency) to change our dating conventions from DD.MM.YY to YYYY-MM-DD. It is a tough struggle, but once people are illuminated , they seldom revert to their old ways.

It's a much better way to handle the date format, certainly for anyone having to deal with date sorting in computers. A directory listing was all convincing I needed.

[+reveritt]

It's an inherently provincial (and whiny and rude) outlook, even if you put a label like "ISO" on it (which many regard as less a serious standards body than a meaningless bureaucratic fee-generating engine). ...

Really, Auntie...talk about being provincial!

 

This thread started out being about an option for date formats, and has degenerated into nonsense. The benefits of standards--including international standards--to commerce, and most other forms of human enedeavour, hardly needs to be defended. Most international standards are not the result of bureaucracy, but of the voluntary work of many serious professionals. And most (all?) standards can be adopted without paying a fee.

 

Do you drive a foreign-made car? The fact that you can run it on American-made gasoline and oil, and repair it with American-made nuts, bolts, tires, light-bulbs, wire, etc., is a direct result of international standards.

 

The Internet that you are using at this moment is based on dozens of standards--for the electrical interface on your network adapter, the various TCP/IP network protocols, and even HTML. Every engineer understands this, so please don't take my word for it.

 

The dates displayed on GC.com's pages are stored in a database in a non-human-readable numeric format. They are converted to a readable format for display. It is certainly possible that the chosen format could be made a user-configurable option. That is a common feature of many, many websites and software applications--for precisely the reasons that have been pointed out here.

[Gert]

To two more "we do it differently (i.e. better)" thing to this nice discussion

 

I (European) personally dislike the fact, that American shops price out the goods excl. sales tax which is added later at the cashier, so you never know how much a thing will actually cost you. Sales tax even varies from state to state and appearantly dependent of what you buy (food, drink).

 

Probably "normal" for Americans but quite annoying for (at least) me. I remember the first time trying to buy something in a US shop, I ended up argueing with the shop owner why he's charging me more, than the price tag says Sales tax, pah! I finally did not buy it... In the next shop I found out

 

An "American" idea I find very nice to have phone-numberes "spelled" like 1-800-CACHING. Very uncommon in Austria (yet, it's just starting), I've chosen my cell phone number like that, and have to explain all the time

 

Gert

[+AuntieWeasel]

Really, Auntie...talk about being provincial!

Ehhh...provincial, yourself. I work for an organization that does ISO certification. Agreeing on an international date format is one thing. Developing a process for the manufacture of Outside Screw and Yoke valves and getting an ISO certificate for quality management standards is a racket.

[+reveritt]

...I work for an organization that does ISO certification. Agreeing on an international date format is one thing. Developing a process for the manufacture of Outside Screw and Yoke valves and getting an ISO certificate for quality management standards is a racket.

And I work for an organization with about half a million employees world-wide, which has not bought into that "racket", which is purely optional (in the USA, anyway). I like having options, don't you?

 

Speaking of options, the point I keep trying to make (with no apparent success) is that the OP contained this very reasonable suggestion:

 

geocaching.com already has an option for selecting between imperial and metric units. If changing to ISO 6801 dates is hard for those who are used to the mm/dd/yyyy notation, why not add an option that would allow the users to select between ISO standard and US style?

 

This is so commonly done that many java development environments provide classes to support it. Of course, this reasonable suggestion was immediately drowned in a torrent of unconstructive, jingoistic nonsense.

[+deimos444]

I may be forced to snitch some of you off to the notified bodies.

Cower at my feet and perhaps I won't.

Signing off at 0931HRS 18JUL05 ( US Military time/date )

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

To two more "we do it differently (i.e. better)" thing to this nice discussion

 

I (European) personally dislike the fact, that American shops price out the goods excl. sales tax which is added later at the cashier, so you never know how much a thing will actually cost you. Sales tax even varies from state to state and appearantly dependent of what you buy (food, drink).

 

Probably "normal" for Americans but quite annoying for (at least) me. I remember the first time trying to buy something in a US shop, I ended up argueing with the shop owner why he's charging me more, than the price tag says Sales tax, pah! I finally did not buy it... In the next shop I found out

 

An "American" idea I find very nice to have phone-numberes "spelled" like 1-800-CACHING. Very uncommon in Austria (yet, it's just starting), I've chosen my cell phone number like that, and have to explain all the time

 

Gert

Gert,

 

Not only do different states have different "sales taxes"...each city & town can have the option (& most do) to charge more sales tax on top of the state sales tax. It drives us nuts also, but that is what we have gotten used to...but, we still carp about it every now & then. Not a whole lot we can do about it though.

 

The 1-800-who-cares thingy was started as an advertising gimick that just caught on. It is a pain in the patuty (rear/buttocks) when you are in a hurry & have to actually look at the buttons (dial) to see which #'s go with what letters, and we all know that Americans are all in a hurry, right?

 

Did you find that to be true also here - that we all seem to be in a rush to go here or there? Rual areas are a lot calmer than the big cities though. That is why Caching is so relaxing...but, there are even people who have done 24 hour caching stints to see how many they can get...crazy.

 

Indotguy  Posted on Jul 18 2005, 03:09 AM

 

QUOTE (AuntieWeasel @ Jul 17 2005, 02:47 AM)

QUOTE (blazius @ Jul 17 2005, 12:54 AM)

I get the impression that you regard having borders to lots of different countries is a disturbing idea.

 

Nonsense. You wish to have that impression, because it suits your prejudices. As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants, many of them recent, you aren't going to out-diversity us. You don't have enough room to.

 

You could easily have asked your original question without the "odd & peculiar" and "prevailing US taste" remarks. Yet you chose to pick fights.

 

Why is that?

 

Pardon me, but I believe many native American Indians could take offense to part of your statement ("As the US is a nation composed entirely of immigrants..."). Or does not considering the natives of this country Americans suit YOUR prejudices? dry.gif

 

Indotguy,

 

The Navajo do consider themselves immigrants...they came across the land bridge when it still existed & left some of their people in Alaska...now known as the Eskimo. The rest then jouneyed down here to AZ. They now have one of the greastest Indian Nations on earth. They also consider themselves as "Native Americans" as do I, I consider myself an American Native even though I am '57 Heinz variety' (a blend of a whole lot of backgrounds, including a tiny bit of indian blood). I was "born & raised" in the U.S. which makes me a "Native" as well as anyone else who were lucky enough to do the same. The "real immigrants" are those who are not lucky enough to be born here but wish to move here & become "Naturalized Citizans". They are not less of an American...probably "better" because they had to study & learn a lot more than we ever did in school about our own country.

 

So, I do not think that Auntie meant anything by her statement about "immigrants". The many Indian tribes are our most valued heritage. The immigrants that first came to North America learned a whole lot from them. As did the indians...like not to trust Europeans...

JUST JOKING ON THE LAST BIT....do not flame me....

 

Shirley~

[+Corp Of Discovery]

An option to select a different date format? Fine, options are good.

 

Europe? Extends to the Urals AFAIK.

 

Immigrants? We are all immigrants, everywhere, just depends on how far back in time you want to go.

 

That tax thing? Yeah, that is a royal pain in the a**. Good idea. I wish it was included before purchase too. They do it for gas for the most part, why not everything else?

 

Phone numbers? Nice if you can spell something, most end up being just gibberish.

[Jeremy]

They are not less of an American...probably "better" because they had to study & learn a lot more than we ever did in school about our own country.

I disagree. They didn't grow up on School House Rock.

 

But seriously, as interesting that this conversation is, it has no bearing on the Geocaching.com web site. I will definitely consider changing the format as long as it is readable to all viewers. If you wish to talk about this further, I suggest moving to the Off Topic forum.

[+ibycus]

This thread was a fun read, but I think its getting very off topic.

 

Personally I normally write my dates as DD/MM/YYYY. If ambiguity arrises in the way I'm writing the date, I just write it a slightly different way. I don't give two hoots about international standards, as long as the result is unambiguous what ever standard you're using, I don't really care.

 

I will never write a 03/04/05, that is just asking for trouble. I've never really noticed a problem with the way gc.com renders dates. I've never had any trouble figuring out what's what, so I don't really care.

 

Don't know the exact stats, but I would imagine, a VERY large fraction of geocachers are in the states. If they want to use US style dates as standard, I don't really care.

 

There are only a few times when units really drive me nuts

1. Distances in miles. I know I should have them figured out by now, but I just can't think in miles. Kilometres all the way (i.e. on travel bug pages)

2. When people convert from one unit system to another and don't bother to round off their units, or at least standardize one way or another. Having a 454g anything is just stupid. Similarly, the .1mile proximity rule should really in Canada be 150m (not one hundred and sixty something metres that it is).

3. Garmin's Topo CANADA is calibrated so that the contour intervals only make sense if you are viewing it in feet (I think it has a 7.6m contour interval!)

 

Oh, and to the guy who said that base 10 was silly for measurments (Jamie Z I think it was...), its just a matter of what you're used to. Is there anything particularly more simple about 11 3/8 vs 11.4 (so close to 11 3/8 that you would never know the difference as far as measuring something goes).

To really see a rational comparision between the two systems, you have to take things from the basis of what you're measuring, if I'm measuring something in imperial units, I'm likely to measure something as 11 23/32" (29.765625cm) (said elevent and twenty three thirty seconds of an inch) (or maybe 11 3/4 (29.845cm) (eleven and three quarters of an inch) if I'm being a bit looser about my measurement.)

Now if we measure that same thing in the metric system, I'll likely measure 29.8cm. (said twenty nine point eight centimetres) Either way, I don't imagine that the human eye can see a whole lot of difference between the two. The metric system really scales easier.

Maybe, back in the day, it was easier to create/divide things in to 8th/16ths or 32nds, but AFAIK, in the modern world, that really isn't an issue.

The fact is, the imperial system doesn't scale very well to multiple significant figures. If I want to express, a length with I know accurately to be say 5.837cm, (very easy to measure to that precision), I can either say I have 2.298 inches (in which case we've essentially decimalized the imperial system...) or come up with some slightly simpler fraction that translates in to approximately 0.298, which off the top of my head, I can't do (149/500 hardly seems like a good candidate). Remember here, I know accurately to 3 siginificant figures my measurement, so say, well its about 2 1/3" isn't really going to cut it, we've artificially lost precision.

 

The converse problem doesn't exist in the metric system. If we assume we know something to accurately be 2 1/3 (although of course significant figures here are harder to judge, we'll assume somehow you know there are 3 digits that are significant), it converts to 5.927cm

 

Oh, and as far as redundency in the metric system goes, I assume you're talking about things like decimetres, and decametres, etc. Well in practice, nobody uses those. They just exist and have names to make people who want to say that everything is base 10 happy. The only time you ever see anything other than km, m, cm, mm is when you're dealing with atomic measures, and you have angtroms (10^-10m), picometres(10^-7m), or nanometres(10^-9m).

 

Anyhoo, I'm done saying my piece. And for the record, I'm a Canadian (or should that be I AM Canadian).