Geocaching Vs Environment

May 2, 2005

As geocachers, we are often found out in nature are we not? Are we not concerned about our environment? If we aren't, why to we bother Cache in Trash out? Since we do care about our environment, doesn't that include wildlife? After all, we don't want a cacher walking across a swan's nest stepping on it's eggs, do we?

Why am I talking about this? Well on April 30, 2005, my wife and I were out caching. I am not going to name names here, nor am I going to point fingers, this is not the place for it. So I am not going to give any details in this post. We happened out to search for this cache. Upon the way, we stumbled across a tree. Inside that tree, lives a turkey vulture. At the time, I wasn't to concerned about it. But when I logged in to post our findings, I noticed this is happens everytime that someone goes to this cache. One time, that is something that happens. But this happens all the time. In this case I believe that the turkey vultures have made this tree home. I was concerned about the Cacher's disturbing this nest. I wrote the owner of the cache, and have not seen a reply. But I did notice that my log for that cache was removed. Obviously, this individual is not concerned about the vultures and did not like me addressing my concerns in my log.

If I am totally wrong about the funtion and purpose of Geocaching, please, someone explain it to me. If I am wrong and wildlife abuse or neglect is a part of geo-caching, I don't want any part of it. But if I am right, we should strive to make these owners move these caches. After all, geocaching needs all of its support from things like the DNR, Parks Services, etc. If they find out that we are causing conflicts with wildlife, I guarentee that we will eventually loose all support from any organization and the only place we will ever be able to hide a cache is in our minds. Imagine if these we Bald Eagles, the DNR would have a fit and would quickly put an end to this cache, possibly to all the caches located in this park (there are 5 in this park that I am aware of).

We wouldn't like it if someone hid a cache in our backyard, would we? Why would this owner assume that it is fine to located one in the vulture's?

Thank you and I look forward to hearing your responses.

Edited May 2, 2005 by 'Jeep'ers

2.1k · May 2, 2005

Is the cache in the tree that the turkey vulture is nesting in? It didn't appear so from your OP. If it is, then it might be appropriate to ask the cache owner to move the cache, if not, then...

Geocaching is a wonderful activity in part because there is the chance we may see wildlife while out and about hunting the wily amm-can. I don't want to avoid areas with wildlife present, I like seeing birds and beasts and bugs in their natural setting.

nfa-jamie

May 2, 2005

Email the cache owner and express your concern. He may have removed your log because it gave away the location, not because he disagreed with you. He may be willing to relocate the cache away from the nest.

May 2, 2005

Have you ever taken a close look at a turkey vulture???? They certainly are not the prettiest bird you've ever seen. Around here they are thick as fleas and are considered a nuisance.

Another species would make a better illustration of whatever point you are trying to make.

3.8k · May 2, 2005

You have posed a question I debate often.

Just exactly what should be protected, and to what extent? I'm sure that if the cache you refer to was disturbing a bald eagle or an ivory-billed woodpecker, the caching community would rise in arms to stop the disturbance.

But let's face it; a turkey vulture will not likely spark much of an interest. It's kind of like the difference between destroying common grasses vs. an endangered species of wild flower.

It's not possible to protect everything all the time unless we vegetate and die (and then we are ignoring our own species).

I believe most cachers are sensitive and smart enough to police themselves on issues like this. I'm sorry about the vulture (I think they're a marvelous link in the grand scheme), but I would be hard pressed to go anywhere without disturbing something. I'm just glad people are aware of the nature around them. This awareness (propogated by geocaching) is enough for me.

May 2, 2005

I did email the owner with my concern, I have not seen a response. As far as observing wildlife, I agree, it is a great thing. We have seen anything from turkeys to bald eagles. The problem is, that people are constantly coming up to the tree and disturbing the vultures. To the point where it will fly out of the tree. In fact, one person posted that the went to the tree for the purpose of trying to get it to fly out. For it to be a problem for so long, it is obviously nesting in the tree. What happens if it gets fed up with all the cache traffic and leaves the nest? One thing for sure, the young vultures won't survive long. Observing wildlife while caching is a wonderful thing, but do we really want to kill it?

May 2, 2005

Oh, I didn't understand. If the animal is ugly and plentiful, we shouldn't care. That's bull.

3.8k · May 2, 2005

BTW, according to this website: "If a turkey vulture is disturbed or harassed, it will throw up on whoever is bothering it. Even the vulture babies will do this!"

11.3k · May 2, 2005

Eeeeuuuwwww! After reading what those birds do, if I was the cache owner, I would move the cache just so I didn't have to read a log about saying, "it was a hot day and we watched the turkey vulture defecate on its feet to cool itself off . . . "

2.1k · May 2, 2005

Oh, I didn't understand. If the animal is ugly and plentiful, we shouldn't care. That's bull.

Nobody said anything like that, as far as I can read...you seem to be trolling for a fight?

If the cache is in the tree, it might be appropriate to move the cache. It might also be appropriate for the owner to post a note asking people to avoid the tree at NXX XX.XXX WXXX XX.XXX, as there is a turkey vulture nest in the tree. There's no way to avoid a small portion of any group being insensitive as regards wildlife, although I feel that geocachers are more sensitive as a group than many other groups.

nfa-jamie

May 2, 2005

Well since you're obviously referring to my log of this cache we did NOT come up and disturb the vulture. When we spotted what was apparently the "vultures tree" we actually skirted it a ways since we knew by the logs that the cache was NOT in that tree. As I said, he didn't peek out and we didn't peek in...."kept waiting" simply meant that I half expected it too fly out. I can't imagine there are too many people who after reading the logs would go stick their head in that hole.

-Folshen

5.2k · May 2, 2005

How close is the Turkey Vulture tree to the cache?

9.1k · May 2, 2005

When hunting a cache last fall, I rounded a bend in the trail and happened upon a squirrel who was busy playing with his nuts. I am not sure who was more surprised!

In retrospect, perhaps I should've noted the encounter in my log.

2.6k · May 2, 2005

Oh, I didn't understand. If the animal is ugly and plentiful, we shouldn't care. That's bull.

Good luck on that Save Our Rats and Cockroaches campaign.

May 2, 2005

It was nearly a week ago and in the middle of the woods... How far is the Vulture tree from the cache site... I'm gonna say maybe twenty feet?

-Folshen

May 2, 2005

I did email the owner with my concern, I have not seen a response. As far as observing wildlife, I agree, it is a great thing. We have seen anything from turkeys to bald eagles. The problem is, that people are constantly coming up to the tree and disturbing the vultures. To the point where it will fly out of the tree. In fact, one person posted that the went to the tree for the purpose of trying to get it to fly out. For it to be a problem for so long, it is obviously nesting in the tree. What happens if it gets fed up with all the cache traffic and leaves the nest? One thing for sure, the young vultures won't survive long. Observing wildlife while caching is a wonderful thing, but do we really want to kill it?

I've sent you 2 emails. Don't give me the no response bit or I'll post your email and my responses here. Oh yeah, has your Jeep gone to the shredder yet? Have you hugged your vulture today?

Edited May 2, 2005 by Tiwica

9.4k · May 2, 2005

Ask this society and see what they think the maximum safe distance should be from a vulture turkey. Take that info to the cache owner.

Turkey vultures are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 so you can't pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill or sell them, but it doesn't say anything about disturbing their habitat. Of course it would be nice if you didn't bother them (especially with them vomiting on you).

BTW, it is a falsehood that touching eggs will make their mothers abandon them. They do have a strong sense of smell (especially vultures) but they don't abandon their chicks or eggs just because they smell humans on them.

May 2, 2005

Eeeeuuuwwww! After reading what those birds do, if I was the cache owner, I would move the cache just so I didn't have to read a log about saying, "it was a hot day and we watched the turkey vulture defecate on its feet to cool itself off . . . "

My thoughts exactly. This bird could also be harmful to cachers, since their defense repetoir (besides being adept at pecking out eyeballs) is quite an aresenal, one tool is barfing on perceived predators.

I've had this happen, unfortunately. I was flying along one day, and a vulture got caught up in the rotor system, and thrown through the greenhouse into my lap. Just in case the lacerations and bruises to my lap were not quite enough, the poor bird, in its last dying act, decided I fit the "predator" or "threat" discription well enough and vomited on me. Vulture vomit consisting of stomach acid and decomposed flesh is, well... being a country boy, I always assumed skunks were one of the worse critters that could give the gift of stink. I was wrong in that assumption, since a skunk has nothing over turkey vulture vomit. On top of the vulture vomit stench itself, the stench causes an involuntary vomit response, this in turn naturally adds to the smelly conundrum. It took us months to get that helicopter somewhat tolerable.

Besides any danger to geocachers, while Turkey Vultures are quite prevalent, perhaps we should indeed endeavor to avoid future disturbances. Regardless of protected status, every critter deserves the respect of having some nesting room.

4.8k · May 2, 2005

Just in case the lacerations and bruises to my lap were not quite enough, the poor bird, in its last dying act, decided I fit the "predator" or "threat" discription well enough and vomited on me. Vulture vomit consisting of stomach acid and decomposed flesh is, well... being a country boy, I always assumed skunks were one of the worse critters that could give the gift of stink. I was wrong in that assumption, since a skunk has nothing over turkey vulture vomit. On top of the vulture vomit stench itself, the stench causes an involuntary vomit response, this in turn naturally adds to the smelly conundrum. It took us months to get that helicopter somewhat tolerable.

:unsure: :anibad:

Ewwwwww. :smile:

1.8k · May 2, 2005

That does it! I'm making sure the windows are shut next time I fly a helicopter!! :unsure:

38.2k · May 2, 2005

If the Turkey Vulture is bothered by the traffic, he will move his nest elsewhere. If he isn't he will stay. We're not exactly talking the Spotted Owl, or the California Condor here. These are Turkey Vultures, a very common bird. Its no different than disturbing a sparrow on its nest.

Every time we walk in the woods, whether on a trail or off, whether geocaching or not, we are disturbing some animal. It could be a squirrel, snake or Turkey Vulture. Some animals are more sensitive to this disturbance than others. The sensitve ones will move on.

I recently read where there was a study on the effect of hiking trails on birds. They counted birds (nesting and otherwise) in trail corridors and away from them. They found no noteworthy difference between the two, leading them to believe that the presence of human traffic has no affect on the animals.

If you have evidence of intentional abuse or harrasment of these birds, or of the fact that the existence of the cache is having a deleterious effect on them, then present it.

1.7k · May 2, 2005

As a former theme park employee in Orlando, Turkey Vultures were a common site on property and were viewed as a pest. In addtion to large droppings, the vomit was really nasty to remove. The park tried everything to scare them off, loud noises, pyrotechnics(fireworks), playing recordings of injured Turkey Vultures. Nothing worked, those birds could not be intimiadated by anything. I am not a Turkey Vulture expert, but based on my own dealings with those birds, the occasonal Geocacher near the tree they nest in wouldn't even make these birds bat any eye.

9.1k · May 2, 2005

Ultimately, it was determined that playing "It's a Small World After All" at full volume would clear the vultures out for a ten-mile radius.

38.2k · May 2, 2005

At the time, I wasn't to concerned about it. But when I logged in to post our findings, I noticed this is happens everytime that someone goes to this cache. One time, that is something that happens. But this happens all the time

Seeing as there are 28 logs for this cache and only two (both on the same day) mention encounters with the TV, you are obviously the king of exaggeration (I would never accuse you of being a liar).

9.4k · May 2, 2005

I'd say this was a positive topic. I now have a better understanding of the lovely vomiting and crapping turkey vulture. And I'm also even more amazed at the large volume of information on Wikipedia.

Also, there is actually a society for turkey vultures! Amazing stuff.

2.6k · May 2, 2005

Ultimately, it was determined that playing "It's a Small World After All" at full volume would clear the vultures out for a ten-mile radius.

Augh! Thank you for planting that song in the dark, moist soil of my head!

Still, I suppose it's better than the thing it replaced: Cheryl Wheeler's rendition of the Mexican Hat Dance, with the word "potato" substituted for the chorus.

Augh! Now it's back!

4.8k · May 2, 2005

Ultimately, it was determined that playing "It's a Small World After All" at full volume would clear the vultures out for a ten-mile radius.

Augh! Thank you for planting that song in the dark, moist soil of my head!

Still, I suppose it's better than the thing it replaced: Cheryl Wheeler's rendition of the Mexican Hat Dance, with the word "potato" substituted for the chorus.

Augh! Now it's back!

I read that Vultures were also learning to sing Its a Small World After All as a new defense mechanism. Then they can aurally torture people before they vomit on them.

May 2, 2005

One time, that is something that happens.

Then I guess it's just something that happens then (whatever that means). You would only be the second group to see the bird. It sounds like you trying to make this a larger issue than it really is. :unsure:

9.1k · May 2, 2005

I'd say this was a positive topic. I now have a better understanding of the lovely vomiting and crapping turkey vulture. And I'm also even more amazed at the large volume of information on Wikipedia.

Also, there is actually a society for turkey vultures! Amazing stuff.

::: A worried Signal the Frog frantically polishes up his resume' :::

24.7k · May 2, 2005

Is it really a problem? How many visits a year does the cache get? Do turkey vultures care about human contact or thrive just the same? Would it of been a problem if you and you alone walked by the nest once? Or is there some magic number that makes it a problem? How do you tell what that number is?

If I were to find my cache was near a rare species that can't stand human contact vs. by a rats nest. In one case I'd do something and in the other, I wouldn't do a thing. It all depends.

If would help if someone was an expert on the species could speak up on the subject so we can begin to know if in this one case if there is a problem.

24.7k · May 2, 2005

As a former theme park employee in Orlando, Turkey Vultures were a common site on property and were viewed as a pest. In addtion to large droppings, the vomit was really nasty to remove. The park tried everything to scare them off, loud noises, pyrotechnics(fireworks), playing recordings of injured Turkey Vultures. Nothing worked, those birds could not be intimiadated by anything. I am not a Turkey Vulture expert, but based on my own dealings with those birds, the occasonal Geocacher near the tree they nest in wouldn't even make these birds bat any eye.

There's an answer. They seem to be able to tolerate human environments so the occasional (what 20 times a year...?) hiker walking buy isnt' a deal breaker for this bird.

1.7k · May 2, 2005

This is the Cache in Question. A couple has a had a close encouter of the vulture kind a few days ago. Otherwise no vulture encounters, a few months ago a racoon mya have been in residence in the same tree.

Edited May 2, 2005 by magellan315

May 2, 2005

I'm thinking about creating a cache where the ammo can is full of peanut butter covered rat poison cakes. Next to the ammo can will be a Hav-a-hart live capture squirrel trap. The instructions are simple. Empty out any carcass found in the trap and reload it with another poison treat. No need to sign the log. I'm going to place the cache in my backyard. It'll be called "Bill's Sick Of Dealing With Destructive Beasties on the Bayou."

Other than that, I think it's our responsibility as inhabitants of this planet to respect the habitats of our furry, finned, or feathered friends. If a cache is located in a nesting place (or passes a nesting area), it should be archived or relocated. Contact the owner of the cache regarding your concerns. Try not to sound like a tree-hugging environmentalist (not that you do, no offense). Failing that, contact the other posters to the cache and ask them if they feel the same way about the cache. Oh, and if you want, you can go back and appologize to the buzzard as you read the logs. I suspect yours is not the only log deleted from the cache page.

May 2, 2005

This is humorous. There are a ton of caches in and around Mt. Gretna, Pa. They also have a continual problem with Turkey Buzzards roosting in the area and making a mess. They even went so far as to hire someone to try to scare them away by setting off firecrackers at dusk. That didn't work very well. Obviously they are not deterred by human proximity. Which was there first? The buzzard or the cache? If it's a 5/5 he may be waiting around for his next meal.................. fresh geocacher...............mmmmmm

May 2, 2005

I suspect yours is not the only log deleted from the cache page.

This is the ONLY log that has been deleted. They posted a "Couldn't Find". How could they say they couldn't find it if they never looked for it. They saw a Buzzard and left. That's their choice. My choice was to delte it on those grounds and also because of the tone with which it was written. This newbie will see many things that disturb them in the future. I think they should quit now before they become entangled too deeply in the careless acts of geocaching.

3k · May 2, 2005

This is the ONLY log that has been deleted. They posted a "Couldn't Find". How could they say they couldn't find it if they never looked for it. They saw a Buzzard and left. That's their choice. My choice was to delte it on those grounds and also because of the tone with which it was written.

I don't know if you saw this or not, but here is a recent discussion in which the opinions of various geocachers were presented in regards to logging DNF's versus Notes. Different people have different views about the use of the different logging types, which is fine by me.

I don't know what was posted in the deleted log, so I can't speak to any concerns about the tone or the content, but I don't think I would ever delete someone's DNF logged on one of my caches because I believed they didn't search for it to my satisfaction. :unsure:

3.8k · May 2, 2005

A (somewhat embarrassing) side note on turkey vultures:

I have considered myself a birder for many years now. Several years back I was riding through the hills of southern Indiana with another birding buddy of mine when I spotted a large, white, dead bird by the side of the road. We stopped and went back to check it out and determined that it was an albino turkey vulture.

As soon as I returned home, I called up the chief biologist for the state DNR (also a personal acquaintance) to report my unusual find. He was so excited about the prospect of an albino turkey vulture, he wrote down my detailed instructions and then drove 60 or so miles from his home, on his day off, to document this albino vulture. He promised to call me back when he returned.

Several hours later I received the phone call. The albino turkey vulture actually turned out to be a domesticated turkey that had flown the coup and been killed by the side of the road! Oops! :unsure:

May 2, 2005

This situation seems to be resolving itself, although not to everyone's satisfaction. The cache hider has confessed and has revealed himself. He is not sympathetic to the idea of moving his cache. He has sent two emails to the logger. He claims to have deleted the log because of the content and because he felt it was not a legitimate DNF. He claims it was the only log deleted. He invites the logger to quit geocaching. The cache hider is very experienced and the logger is pretty new.

The cache hider has every right to decide whether or not to remove the cache. He has a right to delete a log for cause. He could be a little more sympathetic to the newbie, though.

The logger has exaggerated a bit, if the cache hiders responses are accurate.

Both parties need to cool off. Geocachers are not bad people. We want the environment to be preserved. We do not deliberately trash it. The logger makes good points about trying to maintain a good reputation for the hobby. I also think it is a good idea to be courteous and helpful to people new to the hobby.

May 2, 2005

This is the Cache in Question. A couple has a had a close encouter of the vulture kind a few days ago. Otherwise no vulture encounters, a few months ago a racoon mya have been in residence in the same tree.

Oh, bother. The cache isn't even in the now infamous vulture tree. :unsure:

The only "fix" to this is perhaps coords to the infamous tree, and the cache description reading something like "it is not a good idea to stick your head in the hollow of this tree as you progress to the cache. Beware of barfing vulture."

Then again, should we warn against every hazard, like this hazard on one of my caches (cool photo, too!)? A good perusal of cache attributes (lol, perhaps Jeremy should add one for Vultures? That would look good with the serpents!) and on-line logs would avoid all this angst, too.

May 2, 2005

Turkey Vultures eat dead decomposing flesh that has been run over countless times by large trucks on hot days.

They should be able tolerate a geocacher (well, most geocachers, anyway...).

20.7k · May 2, 2005

May I suggest that, in the future, we try to make the topic title and description kind of describe what the thread is going to be about?

Topic: The End of the World!

Thread: Gas costs alot.

5k · May 2, 2005

My choice was to delte it on those grounds and also because of the tone with which it was written.

Aside from anything else in this thread, deleting a log is an enormous breach of geocaching etiquette. Unless it was clearly inappropriate for this website, the log should stand. Deleting logs because of some personal disagreement is childish.

Based on what I've read here, I happen to agree with the cache owner regarding the placement of the cache. It doesn't sound like the wildlife is being adversely affected.

But deleting a log?? hrmph.

Jamie

38.2k · May 2, 2005

Geocachers are not bad people. We want the environment to be preserved. We do not deliberately trash it. The logger makes good points about trying to maintain a good reputation for the hobby. I also think it is a good idea to be courteous and helpful to people new to the hobby.

I've found that as a whole, there are few user groups who have more respect and concern for the environment than geocachers.

Where geocaches may cause serious issues, we should all be concerned and I think most of us are. I moved a cache of mine last winter when I discovered the mine where it was hidden had a population of somewhat rare, hibernating bats.

A cache 20 feet from a Turkey Vulture's nest is not a serious issue. If it was a nesting Spotted Owl or Piping Plover the OP would have a point, but if the OP thinks that walking near common animals is an issue, he had better stay indoors.

May 3, 2005

Turkey vultures are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 so you can't pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill or sell them, but it doesn't say anything about disturbing their habitat. Of course it would be nice if you didn't bother them (especially with them vomiting on you).

Well I guess I won't be feasting on Turkey Vulture anytime soon! :unsure:

Jeepers:

Looks like you need to do some research. If the cache is not too close to the nest, then it should be okay. However if people are making a point of going to harrass the bird, then the cache owner should probably post a note telling them not to. Aside from that it's up to the cache owner to decide whether or not to do something about the cache.

May 3, 2005

The way I see it, I'm part of the environment, not seperate from it. I do tend to be pretty tolerant and kind to other creatures though, aside from pests that invade my home, biting and bloodsucking insects and arachnids, or anything that sees fit to attack me. I don't wish extinction upon endangered species. I wouldn't kick a spotted owl out of its nest to put an ammo can in it or anything. Of course, that's not saying much since I don't live in an area where they're an indiginous species. I picked up a little frog from the pavement in the parking lot the other night so it wouldn't get run over.

I do think I have a right to use the world for my survival and enjoyment, and if a large, common, carrion eating bird doesn't like my doing so, I don't particularly care. I also find it ironic that a bird that's listed as a protected species turns into what some are considering a pest species.

6.5k · May 3, 2005

Geocaching Vs Environment, Shouldn't we be concerned with Nature?

Are you saying we're not? :unsure:

If you find a cache that is a problem, bring its attention to the cache owner. If that doesn't work try your local reviewer, and see what they think. If that fails try the Contact address, or post a 'what should I do' in the forums (hey that seems familar). If that doesn't work, relax and stop worrying about it. If you've brought it to the attention of all those people and they aren't concerned, then maybe your overreacting (i'm serious). Most cachers are nature lovers, if they weren't how could they stand visiting all these park, and doing all this hiking.

Seeing wild animals wild out in the world happens. I actually think its one of the things people like about geocaching. But these are chance encounters, purposely haressing animals is not cool. Since you brought up bald eagles, if you use the search feature in the upper right hard corner, you can likely come across some of the past threads about eagles.

May 3, 2005

I rounded a bend in the trail and happened upon a squirrel who was busy playing with his nuts.

Must ... resist ... urge ... to ... respond!

May 3, 2005

BTW, according to this website: "If a turkey vulture is disturbed or harassed, it will throw up on whoever is bothering it. Even the vulture babies will do this!"

:anibad: This is enough to keep me away as noted in this log...> Cache Log

3.8k · May 3, 2005

BTW, according to this website: "If a turkey vulture is disturbed or harassed, it will throw up on whoever is bothering it. Even the vulture babies will do this!"

This is enough to keep me away as noted in this log...> Cache Log

Nature has a way of taking care of itself. :smile:

24.7k · May 3, 2005

I rounded a bend in the trail and happened upon a squirrel who was busy playing with his nuts.

Must ... resist ... urge ... to ... respond!

Just the other day it was time to whip out my trusty chain saw and do some yard work. The dadgum squirrel that had stolen all the apricots off my tree, had stuffed the entire case full of the neighbors sunflowers. That's a lot of nuts.

Edited May 3, 2005 by Renegade Knight

Geocaching Vs Environment

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