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Cache Attributes


Jeremy

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Thanks, Jeremy! Everything looks great. B)

 

Just one comment that is probably trivial -- struggling with the verbage, "Winter Accessibility" for the snowflake icon. A cache may be accessible during the winter season, but the cache itself may not be snow or ice friendly. Also, as a fellow cacher mentioned in one of the NE forums, one man's 4x4 is another's man's horse and buggy. Accessibility is relative.

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I ask that ALL geocachers please consider adding any known and relevant information about handicapped access to your cache pages.

 

As I understand it, a 1/1 cache should mean that a wheel-chair-bound person could roll right up to it.

 

The Handicap-Accessable attributes have been (perhaps overly) defined at HandiCaching.com and we don't need to get into that here, but please keep in mind that accessable can't mean "you can ALMOST get there!".

 

Thanx,

Ed

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For "parking nearby" distance, I would stick with the 0.1 mile (528 feet) measure which would be consistent with several other rules and guidelines around here. That's equivalent to a one or two minute walk at an average walking speed of 3mph.

I'm not sure the "nearby" is even needed for the Parking attribute. To be honest, the intuitive meaning of the parking icon is that there is a designated parking area. Many caches in parks, etc. are not "nearby," but it is handy to know that there is a proper place to park.

I agree. I don't think it really matters how far away it is - just that there is an official (perhaps accepted is a better term) parking area at one of the places you can begin your hunt.

 

sd

I also agree that this should be changed from "parking nearby", which is ambiguous as to both distance and whether it's "near" the cache or "near" the trailhead, to simply "parking", which would mean an official/acceptable/legal parking area.

 

Then I'd go a step further and reiterate my suggestion that since there is parking near most caches/trailheads, this should be changed so that the only activating choice is "no". This way most caches would not have a parking icon, and the "no parking" icon could be used on caches which don't have a an official/designated/legal parking area near the trailhead (which is what you really need to know to plan ahead)!

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For "parking nearby" distance, I would stick with the 0.1 mile (528 feet) measure which would be consistent with several other rules and guidelines around here. That's equivalent to a one or two minute walk at an average walking speed of 3mph.

I'm not sure the "nearby" is even needed for the Parking attribute. To be honest, the intuitive meaning of the parking icon is that there is a designated parking area. Many caches in parks, etc. are not "nearby," but it is handy to know that there is a proper place to park.

I agree. I don't think it really matters how far away it is - just that there is an official (perhaps accepted is a better term) parking area at one of the places you can begin your hunt.

 

sd

I also agree that this should be changed from "parking nearby", which is ambiguous as to both distance and whether it's "near" the cache or "near" the trailhead, to simply "parking", which would mean an official/acceptable/legal parking area.

 

Then I'd go a step further and reiterate my suggestion that since there is parking near most caches/trailheads, this should be changed so that the only activating choice is "no". This way most caches would not have a parking icon, and the "no parking" icon could be used on caches which don't have a an official/designated/legal parking area near the trailhead (which is what you really need to know to plan ahead)!

Your first suggestion agreed that we should not use the word "near" and then your "No parking" suggestion used the word "near"? :huh:

 

I still think these icons need to stick close to what they mean when they are used anywhere else! Many of them come with a built in universal (common sense) meaning.

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Your first suggestion agreed that we should not use the word "near" and then your "No parking" suggestion used the word "near"?  :D 

:P I thought it was obvious from all the previous times I quoted "near" that I was using it in a loose (undefined) sense, but I guess not. To help you out, let me clarify that the last use of "near" also should have been quoted. My bad. Feel better?

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I still think these icons need to stick close to what they mean when they are used anywhere else!  Many of them come with a built in universal (common sense) meaning.

 

There clearly isn't a "built in (common sense) universal meaning" for the parking icon in this context, given that a number of people have asked for clarification on how to interpret it in the two threads related to the attributes. How near is nearby? Is it near the cache, or near the trailhead to reach the cache?

 

Yes, we all know it somehow relates to parking a vehicle, but no one is quite sure what that means in this context. That makes it less than useful as an attribute.

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Nice job, it looks great all nicely tucked in the corner there. However, I still like the original selector better. It allowed you to manipulate the code to change the descriptions. ie: less than 1 mile from car or less than 500 feet from car or about .25 mile from car, yada yada yada. I hope they bring it back.

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Would "A Partner is Advised" be too little used to be useful or worth the effort?

I do like the recommendation but I personally feel that you should always have a buddy when you're in the woods. By adding that attribute I feel like I'm saying that solo caching is two thumbs up.

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Yes, we all know it somehow relates to parking a vehicle, but no one is quite sure what that means in this context. That makes it less than useful as an attribute.

OK I see your point. So consider this: there are many caches in parks/preserves along busy roads/highways. The parking icon could be used let cachers know that there is a lot off the highway that you can park in to find the cache. The cache may be 1-2 miles from the parking lot, but it is handy to know that there is a parking lot available!

 

So maybe instead of "Nearby Parking" the icon could mean "Designated Parking area".

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I agree.  I don't think it really  matters how far away it is - just that there is an official (perhaps accepted is a better term) parking area at one of the places you can begin your hunt.

 

This seems kinda silly. You can find a legal parking spot to start a cache anywhere. So what does the parking icon mean? It doesn't tell me how to find it or how far away it may be. If there is going to be a parking icon then I would suggest Hemlock's idea that it be used as an indication that you can park within a very close proximity to the cache. That way folks who don't / can't walk too far to a cache have a useful tool.

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I agree.  I don't think it really  matters how far away it is - just that there is an official (perhaps accepted is a better term) parking area at one of the places you can begin your hunt.

 

This seems kinda silly. You can find a legal parking spot to start a cache anywhere. So what does the parking icon mean? It doesn't tell me how to find it or how far away it may be. If there is going to be a parking icon then I would suggest Hemlock's idea that it be used as an indication that you can park within a very close proximity to the cache. That way folks who don't / can't walk too far to a cache have a useful tool.

For some reason you explained it better Navdog, so that idea makes better sense to me now.

So I am reversing my opinion and agreeing that the "Parking Nearby" attribute should stay the way it is! :(

 

The cache page is the better place to provide parking coords to any available designated parking areas.

Edited by TrailGators
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For a little perspective on the genesis of the parking attribute... markwell...

 

On Dec. 21st, Jeremy wrote:

If anything, "parking nearby" seems redundant. Obviously there is parking nearby.

 

Dec. 22nd, The Leprechauns:

If the cache is a park 'n grab, the owner could select the "parking nearby" attribute

 

And on Dec. 24th, it seems Hynr came up with the 500' premise:

QUOTE (BalkanSabranje @ Dec 22 2004, 03:24 PM)
QUOTE (The Leprechauns @ Dec 22 2004, 04:54 PM)

Parking is not an "attribute."  All caches have parking; it is a question of where. 

 

Not quite. As soon as parking is far enough away (which is obviously not a question of distance in time), there is no way of logically associating a parking area to a cache IMHO.

Let's assume that the parking area is some five hours' walking distance from a cache and fifteen minutes by cablecar - would you associate the parking area to the cache???

BalkanSabranje

...snip...

I suspect the descritive text for the meaning of the attributes need to be pretty specific about the fact that "parking" means being able to park any normal sedan (some folks at this site pride themselves in driving their off-road vehicles to ANY location on the plante and parking it there) and that it refers to a clearly legal parking spot (not in front of a gate to private property, 3-ft shoulder, etc). Also, as BalkanSabranje illustrates, the term "nearby" will need some definition (I would suggest 512ft).

 

Since the 528' definition applies to 100% of my caches and most around here, as mentioned previously, I only used it when parking is in eyeshot of the cache.

 

Think about it from the searching perspective. In the potential future if you search for caches with the parking attribute--you don't want them ALL to come up, just those with parking closer than average.

 

Same with the "less than an hour" attribute that we keep going in circles on (perhaps better renamed to "quicky"?)

 

I believe it'll vary region to region, but around here, the [P] (especially combined with "Under Hour") signifies Park & Grab caches.

 

If everyone thinks about the attributes from the perspective of searching based on them, I believe it all makes more sense.

 

(IE, if you'd want the cache to show up were you searching for cache listings with close parking 'cause it's raining or freezing out, or you're in work clothes, or a borrowed car that doesn't lock, or you baby's in a childseat, or your precious Porsche in a bad neighborhood...)

 

There ya' go! My definition? I wouldn't have to put the convertible's top up!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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I looked at the thread, and you are right - there is way more to the story. I apologize if I may have offended or upset anyone - and it is not a personal issue for me. I thank gc.com for thanking the others for coming up with the good idea.

 

It is too bad you can't borrow, beg, or steal (legally) the muggle concept and icon in respect for 9key. Kind of like tipping your hat to him and saying, "thanks for your input on this concept - here's one for you!" It's a cool woord, definition, and etc.

 

Keep up the good work everyone! Have fun geocaching!

 

thewaterman

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One potential problem with these attributes is if everyone applies them differently. If too many get applied improperly you will never be able to make a trustworthy PQ. So one suggestion would be to make a little help blurb for each attribute icon that explaining the basic idea of the attribute and when it should be applied/not applied. If applied correctly these attributes will be an awesome feature!

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Would "A Partner is Advised" be too little used to be useful or worth the effort?

I do like the recommendation but I personally feel that you should always have a buddy when you're in the woods. By adding that attribute I feel like I'm saying that solo caching is two thumbs up.

Okey-doke. Makes sense.

 

Next issue is the <1 hour. Is 1 hour way too generous? If this is supposed to be for lunch time caches, the majority of lunches that I know of are 1 hour or less. By the time you get there get out of your car, get right back in, go by the fast food joint to get something to eat at your desk, that can be well over a 1/2 hour right there.

 

Same goes for trying to grab one on the way to or from work. The missus might be a little miffed for being late to dinner.

 

I propose changing it to "15 minutes or less." This is still a significant amount of time but signifies that it should be done in a fairly short amount of time. It means it's either a park-n-grab, a bit of a walk to an really easy one, little bit harder one next to parking, or somewhere in that range. A person could load only the "<15m caches" for when opportunity strikes and not worry too much about taking too much time.

 

Plus, considering that I figure the vast majority of all caches take less than an hour--especially inside an urban area--then the <1 hour might not be nearly as useful as a <15 minute attribute.

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Next issue is the <1 hour. Is 1 hour way too generous? If this is supposed to be for lunch time caches, the majority of lunches that I know of are 1 hour or less. By the time you get there get out of your car, get right back in, go by the fast food joint to get something to eat at your desk, that can be well over a 1/2 hour right there.

I posted my comment in another thread about this attribute. Perhaps it would be good to open additional threads for the attributes to better define them so we can keep the discussions separate.

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Think about it from the searching perspective. In the potential future if you search for caches with the parking attribute--you don't want them ALL to come up, just those with parking closer than average...(IE, if you'd want the cache to show up were you searching for cache listings with close parking 'cause it's raining or freezing out, or you're in work clothes, or a borrowed car that doesn't lock, or you baby's in a childseat, or your precious Porsche in a bad neighborhood...)

Ah, now I get it! :(

 

This defintion for the parking icon makes more sense to me than - i.e. the parking icon means you can drive right up to the cache. If that's the consensus, I'll remove it from my caches, since parking is not that close to any of them. Using the other suggested definitions (528 feet, legal spot), the parking icon would apply to many (if not all) of my cahces, and that seems to defeat the purpose of having an icon!

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Think about it from the searching perspective.  In the potential future if you search for caches with the parking attribute--you don't want them ALL to come up, just those with parking closer than average...(IE, if you'd want the cache to show up were you searching for cache listings with close parking 'cause it's raining or freezing out, or you're in work clothes, or a borrowed car that doesn't lock, or you baby's in a childseat, or your precious Porsche in a bad neighborhood...)

Ah, now I get it! :laughing:

 

This defintion for the parking icon makes more sense to me than - i.e. the parking icon means you can drive right up to the cache. If that's the consensus, I'll remove it from my caches, since parking is not that close to any of them. Using the other suggested definitions (528 feet, legal spot), the parking icon would apply to many (if not all) of my cahces, and that seems to defeat the purpose of having an icon!

Can we assume that there is some level of consensous that the Parking icon means park and grab? (cache location is with sight of the car, easy legal parking, etc)?

 

I want to be careful that this doesn't become a label for "lame micro" since there are nice medium and large sized caches very close to scenic turnouts and imaginitive hides.

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IMHO, the icons are nice, but I prefer 9key's Selector much more. There are more icons from which to choose, and the icons available are all very applicable to geocaching. For example, how many caches are there that require Scuba gear (and its very own icon)? Having a Book Crossing icon , Bring a Flashlight icon or Wheelchair Access icon is much more relevant and useful. I also like the Selector's parking icon, as it allows you to give coordinates for parking.

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Excellent! I didn't get any notification; I just noticed that attributes had appeared on somebody else's listing, so I went to my own and added them.

 

I do have two comments/suggestions, which have probably been anticipated:

 

* With "Takes less than an hour": does that mean from the time you leave your house, or where you park the car, or what? I've placed a couple where the walk was fairly short, but the drive was a ways outta the way. If you live more than 100 miles away, *all* geocaches will take more than an hour. I think this attribute would have been better as "Takes MORE than an hour" -- clearly meaning you're not gonna get done with it in five minutes no matter where you start counting.

 

* Obviously, I have similar concerns about "significant hike". I dunno whether that means "more than 1/4 mile" or "more than five miles". My brother hiked the AT, I'm sure he'd think that means "more than 100 miles".

 

* Handicapped accessible: Does that mean that a person sitting in a wheelchair will be able to actually retrieve the cache from its hiding place? Or merely that a person in a wheelchair will be able to come along on the hunt?

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This defintion for the parking icon makes more sense to me than - i.e. the parking icon means you can drive right up to the cache. If that's the consensus, I'll remove it from my caches, since parking is not that close to any of them. Using the other suggested definitions (528 feet, legal spot), the parking icon would apply to many (if not all) of my cahces, and that seems to defeat the purpose of having an icon!

 

I selected the "Parking" icon for my three caches in Wal-Mart parking lots. I thought that was pretty funny.

 

I also have one cache for which there is definitely no place to park, you must just pull off the side of the road.

 

Other than those cases, I plan to simply not use this icon. For the typical cache where the hunter must park somewhere and walk a ways to find the cache, it simply doesn't make any sense to tell him there's a place to park -- no matter what the distance is.

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Thanks for this new feature.

 

1) After updating my cache pages, I decided to use the following criteria for kid-friendly caches: nearby playground equipment and/or an ammo box that I have personally stashed (and will continue to replenish) with toys. Does that seem reasonable?

 

2) For the dogs-allowed designation, in public parks I assumed it meant on-leash as opposed to off-leash, so I added that attribute to my cache listings. Is on-leash the assumption when choosing that icon?

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In my neck of the woods, the parents suggested my cache at a nature center be listed as "kid-friendly" despite being an out-of-reach micro! A cache at a science museum got it, etc.

 

Nearby playground equipment and toys? Sounds even more reasonable to me!

 

As for dogs, why not specify leash requirements in the description? As long as dogs aren't prohibited, wouldn't dogs allowed pertain regardless of leash requirements?

 

Remember, icons are general indicators, the description should provide specifics so folks don't have to assume!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

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*  With "Takes less than an hour": does that mean from the time you leave your house, or where you park the car, or what?  I've placed a couple where the walk was fairly short, but the drive was a ways outta the way.  If you live more than 100 miles away, *all* geocaches will take more than an hour.  I think this attribute would have been better as "Takes MORE than an hour" -- clearly meaning you're not gonna get done with it in five minutes no matter where you start counting.

I count it from where I get out of my car to start the hike/search. I have no idea how far someone may be driving to get to the trailhead so I don't count it.

 

*  Obviously, I have similar concerns about "significant hike".  I dunno whether that means "more than 1/4 mile" or "more than five miles".  My brother hiked the AT, I'm sure he'd think that means "more than 100 miles".

I suppose this one would have to be based upon local norms. Is it a significant hike for that area?

 

*  Handicapped accessible:  Does that mean that a person sitting in a wheelchair will be able to actually retrieve the cache from its hiding place?  Or merely that a person in a wheelchair will be able to come along on the hunt?

I feel this one should be used if a person in a wheelchair can reasonably complete the cache by themselves. Anything special beyond that should be noted in the cache's description.

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2) For the dogs-allowed designation, in public parks I assumed it meant on-leash as opposed to off-leash, so I added that attribute to my cache listings.  Is on-leash the assumption when choosing that icon?

I'd think that at least local leash laws would apply in all situations where dogs are allowed.

 

Some parks around here are very specific about NO PETS ALLOWED. Other specifically state that dogs are allowed and reinforce the leash law by stating that all dogs must be on a leash. Still other parks don't specifcally state anything, so the general leash laws apply.

 

I never assume I can let my dog off leash by default. Even when I am in places where I can let her walk off leash I always carry one with me.

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* With "Takes less than an hour": does that mean from the time you leave your house, or where you park the car, or what?

Since I don't know where you live, I would assume it would be the time hiking in and back out. It would be an approximation based on your own skills and can be adjusted based on feedback from finders.

 

I would actually filter these out of my personal queries since I like longer hikes.

 

Obviously, I have similar concerns about "significant hike".  I dunno whether that means "more than 1/4 mile" or "more than five miles".  My brother hiked the AT, I'm sure he'd think that means "more than 100 miles".

 

Use your discretion. Change as feedback presents itself. I would expect that most people do not think 1/4 of a mile is a significant hike, though we have hikes here that long with a 600ft elevation gain.

 

*  Handicapped accessible:  Does that mean that a person sitting in a wheelchair will be able to actually retrieve the cache from its hiding place?  Or merely that a person in a wheelchair will be able to come along on the hunt?

 

In retrospect I think we should change it from wheelchair accessible to handicapped accesible. My opinion is they would be relatively short hikes with even terrain and can be navigated with the more offroad-style wheel chairs. Access to the actual cache may or may not be accessible. I'd include that part in the description.

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It is too bad you can't borrow, beg, or steal (legally) the muggle concept and icon in respect for 9key.

I don't know what you mean. We have "use stealth" which is more encompassing than muggles about.

 

stealth-yes.gif

I like the term "Use Stealth" better than "Beware of Muggles".

 

1. I think it's more generic as, believe it or not, not everyone will know what the word 'muggle' means. (I do, no need to explain it to me)

 

2. As an adult I would feel pretty silly saying to someone "Watch out for muggles!"

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I use an Apple computer. I can not get the cache attributes description to pop up when I use my mouse to "hover". Is there something else I can do, or are you going to make an index for us Mac users. :unsure:

I have an iMac and it pops up just fine. Though I'm using Thunderbird (or whatever the new name for Mozilla is now).

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I use an Apple computer. I can not get the cache attributes description to pop up when I use my mouse to "hover". Is there something else I can do, or are you going to make an index for us Mac users. <_<

I'm using a PowerMac running OS X (10.3.7) and the hover text functions with:

 

- Internet Explorer 5.2

- Safari 1.2.4

- Mozilla 1.7

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Though I'm using Thunderbird (or whatever the new name for Mozilla is now).

Firefox. Thunderbird is the email software.

Actually, the new name for Mozilla is.... Mozilla. It hasn't changed, nor has it been discontinued. The 1.8beta release is expected in a few weeks.

 

The original name of Firefox was Phoenix. That ran into trademark problems, and had to be changed.

Edited by Prime Suspect
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Though I'm using Thunderbird (or whatever the new name for Mozilla is now).

Firefox. Thunderbird is the email software.

Actually, the new name for Mozilla is.... Mozilla. It hasn't changed, nor has it been discontinued. The 1.8beta release is expected in a few weeks.

 

The original name of Firefox was Phoenix. That ran into trademark problems, and had to be changed.

Yeah. I know all this. I just don't care <_<

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I am using Safari and it does not pop up. I have Firefox (mozilla) on my computer, so I tried that and it works with Firefox. I don't know why it doesn't work in Safari, I believe that Safari is a version of a Mozilla program.

I am using Safari and it -does- pop up when the mouse hovers over the image.

 

Safari, and many other browsers, look for a TITLE tag as one of the tags inside the IMG tag for images:

 

img src="../images/attributes/scenic-yes.gif" Alt="scenic view" title="scenic view" width=30 height=30

 

--Marc

February 4, 2005 @ 1:42 PM

N40° 46.565' W073° 58.756'

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I just noticed something. I use a PDA to paperless cache, and I noticed that the GC.com "Cache Attributes" do not show up in the description in my PDA. However, 9key's "Selector" info shows up. What's up with that? :mad:

I would much rather be able to have that info in my PDA than to be able to filter out caches based on attributes.

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I just noticed something. I use a PDA to paperless cache, and I noticed that the GC.com "Cache Attributes" do not show up in the description in my PDA. However, 9key's "Selector" info shows up. What's up with that? :ph34r:

I would much rather be able to have that info in my PDA than to be able to filter out caches based on attributes.

It was long ago announced that attributes would be rolled out in phases. One phase is putting in the mechanism to allow people to add them to their cache page, and that's been done. Other phases include adding them to GPX files, and creating search/filter options.

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