Use Of Religeous Or Political Stickers In Logs

1.4k · December 17, 2004

While I am not gay, my ex-wife has a gay (lesbian) sister. I can't say that I agreed with her lifestyle, but she is a really good person. Someone that I would be comfortable having around my children. She was both a sister-in-law and a friend. She's still a friend of mine. This woman was reared with 'traditional family values' and even though she chose a different route to express her sexuality, she still does exhibit 'traditional family values'. She values her family and what she has been blessed with. She is in a committed relationship with her partner and the two of them both exhibit 'traditional family values'. They love each other and are faithful to each other. They cherish the time they spend with their families. Granted, what she does in her bedroom may not be traditional, but her values of loving and caring for her family are very traditional.

If I were gay, I would be offended that the 'gay community' as a whole would try to speak for me and state that I didn't have 'traditional family values'. Like I said, I don't understand nor care for a homosexual lifestyle but I think that a gay person can have 'traditional family values' and would love to see someone that is gay to speak-up and against the radicals that would attempt to speak for them and state that they don't have 'traditional family values'.

Does what I'm trying to say make sense? I sure hope so.

I just don't understand why people are making such a big deal out of this.... are gay people that geocache just concerned with the word 'traditional'? I would be willing to bet that most gay people do have 'traditional family values', even though their sexual lives may not be traditional. As a WASP I am offended by a lot of things, but I don't get to make a fuss about them.... maybe I should start griping about things related to geocaching that offend me.... I doubt it would serve any real purpose, but it might make me feel better

1.4k · December 17, 2004

All this is making me wonder if the smiley face stickers that we put in our logs is offensive to anyone

Yes, they offend me. From now on please use a 'cynical face sticker'

December 17, 2004

Most cachers will not be offended if you log the date and time.

Anything else will be offensive to someone.

To be politically correct, don't log.

9.4k · December 17, 2004

Most cachers will not be offended if you log the date and time.

Anything else will be offensive to someone.

To be politically correct, don't log.

Actually, logging the date and time is offensive to me if I have to be at work while someone else is caching

24.7k · December 17, 2004

Most cachers will not be offended if you log the date and time.

Anything else will be offensive to someone.

To be politically correct, don't log.

Actually, logging the date and time is offensive to me if I have to be at work while someone else is caching

Not to mention the uproar of not logging to begin with.

38.2k · December 17, 2004

Most cachers will not be offended if you log the date and time.

Anything else will be offensive to someone.

To be politically correct, don't log.

That depends. Is the date Anno Domini (A.D.) or Before Common Era (B.C.E)? A certain segment will be offended by the former.

Edited December 17, 2004 by briansnat

24.7k · December 17, 2004

In the end no matter what you do or how you do it someone will find something wrong with it. You might as well be yourself.

December 17, 2004

While I am not gay, my ex-wife...

Hey Jeff, did you ask for statistics? There's a start. You're a big "family values" guy, are you? Please explain to me how divorce protects the "sanctity of marriage"....

I think it's also pretty ironic to classify your sister-in-law's sexual orientation as one that she "chose."

You say you're not gay, do you remember the exact moment that you "chose" to be heterosexual? Explain.

December 17, 2004

If I were gay, I would be offended that the 'gay community' as a whole would try to speak for me and state that I didn't have 'traditional family values'. Like I said, I don't understand nor care for a homosexual lifestyle but I think that a gay person can have 'traditional family values' and would love to see someone that is gay to speak-up and against the radicals that would attempt to speak for them and state that they don't have 'traditional family values'.

Does what I'm trying to say make sense? I sure hope so.

I just don't understand why people are making such a big deal out of this.... are gay people that geocache just concerned with the word 'traditional'? I would be willing to bet that most gay people do have 'traditional family values', even though their sexual lives may not be traditional.

no no... i don't think the "gay community" says they don't have traditional family values, rather, people who don't support gay families say that. i think the phrase "traditional family values" has a political connotation that the anti-gay folks use, so gays don't use it. have you seen the bumper sticker that says "hatred is not a family value"?

i'm not concerned about the word traditional. my lifestyle is not "traditional", but my life is far more normal (or traditional) than i think most people would think. it's pretty boring actually.

i'm still trying to figure out how two same sex people in a relationship is threatening to the entire institution of marriage.

Edited December 17, 2004 by vree13

18.9k · December 17, 2004

As usual, the forum posts go sideways quickly. Again, I'll point out that the sticker in question (normal address label size) says:

Traditional Family Values For A Strong America

The phrase "Traditional Family Values" has considerable baggage attached to it that has nothing to do with promoting families doing things together. During the past couple of years it has become strongly associated with a certain set of contentious religious, social and political viewpoints.

Contentious - Only if you chose to make it that way. Seems most people see it in a whole different light..... Don't be offended by things not intended to inflict offense. It is just a point of view and an important one to this gentleman if he bothered to make labels with it. I think many aspects of Geocaching embody tradtional family values. (but maybe that is just me).

7.2k · December 17, 2004

Contentious - Only if you chose to make it that way.

A phrase basically designed to show support for the denial of equal rights is only contentious if I choose for it to be?

That's like looking a black man in the face and saying, "Jim Crow for a better tomorrow"--it's only contentious if you let it? Please!

1.4k · December 17, 2004

While I am not gay, my ex-wife...

Hey Jeff, did you ask for statistics? There's a start. You're a big "family values" guy, are you? Please explain to me how divorce protects the "sanctity of marriage"....

I think it's also pretty ironic to classify your sister-in-law's sexual orientation as one that she "chose."

You say you're not gay, do you remember the exact moment that you "chose" to be heterosexual? Explain.

First of all, I'm not proud that I no longer have a wife. I never thought that I would become a statistic, but I did. I couldn't help it that my wife decided that she no longer loved me nor wanted to be a true mom to her kids. I am very much against divorce. I think it is a VERY big problem in our society. I'm often ashamed to admit that I'm divorced, but I am a father to my children. I am Mr. Mom for them. I accept that responsibility and hope and pray they never have to go through what I did.

No, I don't remember the moment I decided that I wasn't gay. I also don't constantly go around telling people that I'm heterosexual nor do I make an issue out of it. I just like women.

Why is it that when I actually try to defend members of the homosexual community by stating that they most like share many of the same values as I do that I get attacked? Geesh, forgive me for stating that gay people can have 'traditional family values' such as caring for loved ones and friends and being faithful in relationships. Don't worry, I won't attempt to defend the radicals of any group again. I feel that radicals of any group tend to drive away more supporters than they attract just by their radical and defensive stances.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

but my life is far more normal (or traditional) than i think most people would think. it's pretty boring actually.

Welcome to my nightmare

December 17, 2004

Contentious - Only if you chose to make it that way. Seems most people see it in a whole different light..... Don't be offended by things not intended to inflict offense. It is just a point of view and an important one to this gentleman if he bothered to make labels with it. I think many aspects of Geocaching embody tradtional family values. (but maybe that is just me).

geocaching is family friendly. but be aware that when you say the words "family values" and especially "traditional family values" some people hear them through a different filter.

if you go to the christian coalition's website you see the words "pro-family" and "traditional family values" all over the place as if gay people and the evil liberals are anti family. in fact, now that i'm looking a little closer, they do say anti-family in there. who the hell is anti-family?? aren't most people part of one?? hm. i'm gay and i'm pro-family, but because i'm gay i must be anti-family...

i'm not offended by people having families, enjoying families, doing family-oriented things. yay for that! but not all people that use the term "traditional family values" mean just that. (although, yes... some people do!)

eh. i just try to play nice. i've learned that geocachers are a very diverse bunch. i found a sig card with a naked betty boop on it once. i traded it out for my nice, more family friendly sig card.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

Out of curiousity, what is the definition of traditional family values?

Is it loving and caring for your family and friends? Being faithful to your significant other? Going out of your way to help others and to be willing to do without something to help another?

Or does it mean something totally different?

December 17, 2004

ah... that's the whole discussion, jeff35080. it means something different to every person you ask because we all bring different experiences to this discussion.

2.3k · December 17, 2004

Hey Jeff, did you ask for statistics? There's a start. You're a big "family values" guy, are you? Please explain to me how divorce protects the "sanctity of marriage"....

I think it's also pretty ironic to classify your sister-in-law's sexual orientation as one that she "chose."

You say you're not gay, do you remember the exact moment that you "chose" to be heterosexual? Explain.

You know, I've been trying to stay clear of this topic entirely. But geez, what warrants this attack on Jeff35080 exactly? Explain!

It's one thing to understand what someone is TRYING to say -- it's another to blatantly take their comments and twist them.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

that's the whole discussion, jeff35080. it means something different to every person you ask because we all bring different experiences to this discussion.

Thanks for the calm, rational discussion vree. I seriously appreciate it. I don't want to overstep any bounds but since you have stated that you are gay I would like to know if you believe in the same basic values as I do. I'm willing to bet that you do. I'm not talking about what we do in the bedroom, just basic family values.

2.7k · December 17, 2004

This thread has descended into stupidity. Not that it didn't start that way.

Seeing that the OP is a flaming hypocrite, someone please close this thread.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

Hey Jeff, did you ask for statistics? There's a start. You're a big "family values" guy, are you? Please explain to me how divorce protects the "sanctity of marriage"....

I think it's also pretty ironic to classify your sister-in-law's sexual orientation as one that she "chose."

You say you're not gay, do you remember the exact moment that you "chose" to be heterosexual? Explain.

You know, I've been trying to stay clear of this topic entirely. But geez, what warrants this attack on Jeff35080 exactly? Explain!

It's one thing to understand what someone is TRYING to say -- it's another to blatantly take their comments and twist them.

Thank you Joel. I wasn't trying to 'stir the pot' just trying to state that I think gay people can share many of the same values as a straight person.

December 17, 2004

heh, i think i mentioned two pages ago that this was waaaaaay off topic, but i figured since it was still open... what the heck?

yep, jeff, i bet we have values that are pretty much the same. families are important, people should be good to one another, if you are in a relationship, you should respect your partner, life should be valued, people should be responsible for their own actions... you know. pretty basic stuff.

18.9k · December 17, 2004

I wish someone would start a nationally sponsered list of phrases I am to avoid using. Maybe I have spent too much time out here on the wind swept high plains but it is difficult to keep up with every person's take on what is offensive. On second thought maybe I need to spend more time out on the wind swept plains - geocaching and just quit pondering this issue.

2.3k · December 17, 2004

Thank you Joel. I wasn't trying to 'stir the pot' just trying to state that I think gay people can share many of the same values as a straight person.

yeah, I know what you were trying to say, and saw it as such -- maybe because I don't have some social axe to grind?

Amazing how ANY comment on some subjects, no matter how harmless, can look like an attack to someone, somewhere.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

yep, jeff, i bet we have values that are pretty much the same. families are important, people should be good to one another, if you are in a relationship, you should respect your partner, life should be valued, people should be responsible for their own actions... you know. pretty basic stuff.

Amen!

2.6k · December 17, 2004

Amen!

Here we go again...

Edited December 17, 2004 by Divine

38.2k · December 17, 2004

I think the phrase "traditional family values" has a political connotation that the anti-gay folks use, so gays don't use it.

I'm guessing that " traditional family values" is used by people who are against gay marriage and people are assuming that people who have issues with gay marriaige are anti-gay, "bigots". In fact most are far from anti-gay...or are people like Bill and Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Joe Leiberman, the late Paul Wellstone, Bob Graham, John McCain, Jim Jeffords, Dick Gephart ,Joe Biden, Tom Harkin and Al Gore all anti gay? They all either voted for the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, or have come out against gay marriage.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

Amen!

Here we go again...

Darn it! I didn't mean to offend anyone with my "amen"

December 17, 2004

I think this will really help everyone here out when out there on these 'politically charged' hunts.

Red | Blue

December 17, 2004

I wish someone would start a nationally sponsered list of phrases I am to avoid using. Maybe I have spent too much time out here on the wind swept high plains but it is difficult to keep up with every person's take on what is offensive. On second thought maybe I need to spend more time out on the wind swept plains - geocaching and just quit pondering this issue.

starbrand, i just want to make it clear to you that, while i may not agree with w, i don't care if you use the phrase family values for a stronger america or whatever the phrase was (man, it was so long ago that that was even talked about!) in a log book. that's my take on it.

while i wouldn't think to put some john kerry slogan in a log book, i don't begrudge you for putting what you want in there. i may not like it, but oh well. such is life. of course, turnabout's fair play, but really... it's just a log book. in a box. in the woods.

i'll try to keep my politics and religion outside of geocaching and if someone puts something in a cache that i don't like, i'll trade it out for something else. if someone put something in a logbook in my cache, i'd probably put in a new log book, but to be honest with you, i haven't looked at my logbooks yet and i don't look through most log books all that closely.

1.4k · December 17, 2004

it's just a log book. in a box. in the woods

This is a clear and concise point that has been made... and one in which I totally agree!

2.6k · December 17, 2004

it's just a log book. in a box. in the woods.

Ok, who got offended?

1.4k · December 17, 2004

LMAO

December 17, 2004

I think the phrase "traditional family values" has a political connotation that the anti-gay folks use, so gays don't use it.

I'm guessing that " traditional family values" is used by people who are against gay marriage and people are assuming that people who have issues with gay marriaige are anti-gay, "bigots". In fact most are far from anti-gay...or are people like Bill and Hillary Clinton, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Joe Leiberman, the late Paul Wellstone, Bob Graham, John McCain, Jim Jeffords, Dick Gephart ,Joe Biden, Tom Harkin and Al Gore all anti gay? They all either voted for the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, or have come out against gay marriage.

the term "traditional family values" surely isn't used exclusively by anti-gay people. heck, i just used it a few posts ago. i am saying that anti-gay people do tend to use that term and imply that gay people can't have traditional family values, whatever those are.

and no, i don't think that all people who are against gay marriage are anti-gay. or bigots. we all have our opinions and i'm know a lot of people are against it.

24.7k · December 18, 2004

While I am not gay, my ex-wife...
...I think it's also pretty ironic to classify your sister-in-law's sexual orientation as one that she "chose."

You say you're not gay, do you remember the exact moment that you "chose" to be heterosexual? Explain.

Gay is a fetish. Some people confuse it for a life style, and that is a choice.

Your questions are odd. I don't remember choosing puberty. It just happened. How does death protect the sanctity of life? If you don't choose to be born does it matter? Where do fetishes come from? Why do some people chose animals and others children? Those are also fetishes. Explain why iit's not a choice.

1.7k · December 18, 2004

It seems to me this is ultimately a question about putting political statements in caches. Given the page-after-page-after-page of heated exchanges this has stimulated, it would be hard to argue this isn’t about a political statement. The only thing that stimulates this kind of furor is either religion or politics and in this case it may be both, but as a minimum it’s laden with political emotion.

So, the question becomes, is it against the rules to put political material in caches? I can’t find a rule against it. The cache rules page says, “. . caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas may not be listed.” But, this rule only applies to caches being placed/established/created for political purposes – not to the things visiting cacher put in them. If anyone finds a prohibition regarding the political nature of material placed in caches by visiting cachers, please post it. Otherwise, it would seem even blatant political opinion and materials can be added to caches.

In our area I see a variety of religious material and solicitations left in caches.

I therefore assume these practices will become prohibited only if TPTB (gc.com) were to establish a prohibition against it.

And yes, they can do something about it. They can banish the offender.

But, I don’t support anymore rules, particular since rules in this are likely to be enforced inconsistently.

If a cache owner wishes to prohibit them s/he could make a statement in the cache description to the effect that “Items that appear to be for religious, political purposes may not be placed in this cache. If I identify anyone leaving such material their find/log will be deleted.”

Personally I would be unlikely to do such a thing for fear of having my caches vandalized.

If I really didn’t want this happening, I guess I might put a softer statement like, “In the spirit of keeping Geocaching a congenial, fun game for everyone, please do not put religious or political material in this cache.” Then quietly remove any such material when I do cache maintenance.

Edited December 18, 2004 by Thot

December 18, 2004

Gay is a fetish. Some people confuse it for a life style, and that is a choice.

Your questions are odd. I don't remember choosing puberty. It just happened. How does death protect the sanctity of life? If you don't choose to be born does it matter? Where do fetishes come from? Why do some people chose animals and others children? Those are also fetishes. Explain why iit's not a choice.

from dictionary.com, fetish:

3. Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.

4. An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.

gay is not a fetish. the point they were trying to make is that people don't choose to be gay. you can choose to try to ignore that you are gay, but it's like you, who are presumably straight, trying to be gay. it sure wouldn't feel right to you.

come on... who in their right mind would choose to be gay? is it fun to be gay?? i know, i know... you are all just dying to try it, aren't you? please.

December 18, 2004

I have a serious question- What exactly do y"all mean by "Family Values"?

38.2k · December 18, 2004

I have a serious question- What exactly do y"all mean by "Family Values"?

I think that's the issue.

9.4k · December 18, 2004

I have a serious question- What exactly do y"all mean by "Family Values"?

I think that's the issue.

These guys maybe?

1.7k · December 18, 2004

I have a serious question- What exactly do y"all mean by "Family Values"?

Are you really serious? Have you read at least the first couple of pages in this thread? It seems like it would be hard to have read all that and not understand what the OP means.

According to the OP “family values” was used as a catch phrase/slogan/motto/rallying cry for a political campaign against gay marriage. And, since this cacher is posting little more than a sticker with that slogan in logbooks he must be thumping that political agenda.

Edited December 18, 2004 by Thot

December 18, 2004

I would just like to say that I have no problems with it at all. However if you have a beef with it, move onto the next cache.

Promoting "family values" isn't bad at all, in fact there are many more things around you that probably need more attention than someone promoting something more traditional.

How about practicing some tolerance here?

December 18, 2004

Is this sticker appropriate for a cache log? Yes or no. It seems like most posters here think "Yes" although it is unclear if they understand what the sticker actually says.

Of course we understand what the sticker says. Is it in your nature to assume that people who don't turn to your side, after you giving your argument several times, are too stupid to understand? You've clearly and simply described the meaning behind that slogan, in Oregan.

Why is it that some people who can't convince other people that they are right, lower themselves to assuming that the other people are too stupid to understand their point?

Oh...and I've made several well thought out, and lengthy, replies in this thread...but none of them has generated a response. Are my points too hard to argue against? Seriously...why no responses from people, to my arguments?

1.8k · December 18, 2004

Oh...and I've made several well thought out, and lengthy, replies in this thread...but none of them has generated a response. Are my points too hard to argue against? Seriously...why no responses from people, to my arguments?

They all got drunk and fell asleep ... together. :lol:

December 18, 2004

Oh...and I've made several well thought out, and lengthy, replies in this thread...but none of them has generated a response. Are my points too hard to argue against? Seriously...why no responses from people, to my arguments?

They all got drunk and fell asleep ... together.

aaauuuughhhh!!!!! *runs around in circles*

3.9k · December 18, 2004

Oh...and I've made several well thought out, and lengthy, replies in this thread...but none of them has generated a response. Are my points too hard to argue against? Seriously...why no responses from people, to my arguments?

Blue Deuce and ClearPath have both responded to your comments by quoting them. After I found the second one I stopped looking.

I would have said to really get a lot of replies you have to say something outrageous. And then Divine said Geocaching was bigger than Jesus and it only made a ripple.

I'll bet Jesus was rolling over in his grave after that one.

:lol:

1.8k · December 18, 2004

I'll bet Jesus was rolling over in his grave after that one.

Uh oh ... grab some popcorn folks ... this could be more than a ripple ...

December 18, 2004

Amen!

Here we go again...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

December 18, 2004

Blue Deuce and ClearPath have both responded to your comments by quoting them. After I found the second one I stopped looking.

I would have said to really get a lot of replies you have to say something outrageous. And then Divine said Geocaching was bigger than Jesus and it only made a ripple.

I'll bet Jesus was rolling over in his grave after that one.

Blue Deuce simply was agreeing with me, and Clear Path was responding to a joke. My point is that no one arguing the other side of this issue, has managed to respond to my arguments. I find that interesting, and perhaps it says something.

Oh...and yeah...that Jesus comment was so obviously meant to incite a spirited response, that I shrugged it off as not being worthy of one.

Edited December 18, 2004 by PC Painter

December 18, 2004

I am going to assume that the supposed "anti-gay" ballot measure, was one that said only a man and a woman can be married. Please accept my apologies, if I'm wrong. It's hard to tell tone on a bulletin board, so you should know, I am serious in what I'm about to say, and there is no attitude intended.

Just because you say a bill is "anti-gay", doesn't make it true. I could just as easily say that such a bill is "anti-marriage", but that would be just as biased towards my side of the fence, as yours. Both might be unfair and, at least, are showing a bias, rather than being an actual literal description of the measure.

Since it's inception, marriage has been between a man and a woman. It's of my opinion that, that is part of the description....definition, if you will, of a marriage. You don't put wings and a jet engine on a boat, poke holes in the bottom, and still fight to call it a boat, and then get offended when people tell you that you can't call it a boat anymore. You've just made it into an airplane.

I have no problem with gays, bi-sexuals, or just close friends that just happen to live together and want to stay that way, having a "civil union" that gives them certain benefits, just like a married couple get. I simply do not see why marriage, has to be re-defined. What next? Polygamy gets added to the definition of marriage? Hey...a guy finds two women (or vice versa) that want to live and sleep with him? More power to him and them, if that's what they want. But....is it marriage? Not in my opinion. I'm entitled to it, and to vote against it, when it comes up. I'm far from being anti-gay. There are several gay people at work, and I consider them friends. I would not and do not hesitate to hang out with these friends outside of work.

Now....that's just my view. You expressed yours, and I expressed mine. I respect that your's is different, and that's cool. But maybe we could all stop pretending that, just because someone has a different opinion than ours, that it must automatically become labelled as offensive, and we must lash out at them.

You've the right to your opinion....so do I.

i'll bite. you are correct. you can change the words around to show where you stand on an issue (e.g. pro life vs. anti-choice). you can definitely show your biases by how you phrase your arguments.

i don't think that most gay people care what you call it, they just want some of the same benefits that a married couple would get. if that is really the sticking point: the word, then maybe we all need to sit down and talk!

i can only speak from my own experience, and i can't assume that all gay people share my opinions, but here are some rights that marriage offers straight couples that gay couples may not have or have to file extra legal documents to obtain (from www.nolo.com):

-Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.

-Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.

-Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illnes

-Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.

-Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.

-Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.

-Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.

-Making burial or other final arrangements.

-Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.

-Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."

-Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.

-Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.

-Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.

-Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).

-Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.

-Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.

-Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.

-Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

i've left out a lot, including monetary benefits from the government, because those aren't that important to me personally. if even some of these rights could be afforded to me and a same-sex partner, i could care less what you would call it.

i don't think that i disagree with you all that much, pc painter. we all have our opinions and i'm not offended by your differing opinion... i'm not sure which comments to which you were expecting a response...

21.9k · December 18, 2004

Hello,

At this point the discussion has strayed far away from stickers in cache logbooks. No more general debate of gay rights, or this thread will have to be locked and/or the moderators will start throwing yellow penalty flags. You're welcome to open a topic for that other debate in the off-topic forum.

Since it's been a few pages, I'm copying and pasting Hydee's moderator note from page one:

If you would like to discuss in general, slogans, solicitations, agendas, or religious beliefs being posted in cache logs feel free. But the discussion should remain general meaning what can/should be done in these cases, not be focused on one cachers specific belief or our interpretation of that belief.

Keep the topic general or it will need to be closed.

Use Of Religeous Or Political Stickers In Logs

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