I Went To Geowoodstock And All I Got Was A ...

[+sduck]

Bad attitude?

 

Take a look at this cache.

 

It seems really wrong to me for some reason. The placer, myotis, has mentioned that he's just poking fun, but he seems awfully serious about it. It seems in very poor taste to me.

 

Granted, he's got a point - there ARE too many lame micros here. But is it so bad that he has to make fun of ALL the caches and cachers in Nashville? Or am I being overly sensitive?

[+Jamie Z]

So he doesn't like what he experienced as the typical Nashville-style caches and he says so and placed a cache to discourage that type of cache in his area.

 

I see no problems.

 

Jamie

[+Renegade Knight]

...Or am I being overly sensitive?

I think so. Take it wtih a grain of salt and realized that a lamp post hide however creative is still a lamp post hide whether it's in Nashville or one by this guy. Ironic really.

[+sept1c_tank]

Hello lamp post. What 'cha knowin'?

I've come to watch your flowers growin'.

[+Snoogans]

It's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

 

A cache is a cache is a effin' cache. Deriding other people's efforts to the general public is just plain lame.

 

I have been to plenty of lame caches, but I don't judge another's efforts by MY standards to anyone that doesn't share MY standard.

 

Lame, lame, lame.

 

Sn gans

 

BTW Notice my sig line?????

Edited December 7, 2004 by Snoogans

[+clearpath]

Look, the guy is from Wood River, IL what more do you need to know ...

[+Doggiewoggie]

It does look like Nashville is cram-packed with lame caches

[+briansnat]

It does look like Nashville is cram-packed with lame caches

...and songwriters.

[Mushtang]

Bad attitude?

 

Take a look at this cache.

 

It seems really wrong to me for some reason. The placer, myotis, has mentioned that he's just poking fun, but he seems awfully serious about it. It seems in very poor taste to me.

 

Granted, he's got a point - there ARE too many lame micros here. But is it so bad that he has to make fun of ALL the caches and cachers in Nashville? Or am I being overly sensitive?

I think you're being overly sensitive. Your statement on the cache page that you wanted people in Nashville to delete his finds made me roll my eyes and wonder how old you were.

 

Delete his finds in Nashville because of a cache he hid in St. Louis offended you?!?!

 

Sounds like a tantrum to me.

[+drat19]

I read Myotis' cache page, and also his further comments in his 12/6/04 Note log on that cache page, and I feel compelled to chime in my 100% support of his OPINION. I'm not sure I would have taken the direct slam at Nashville that he did with the cache he placed, but his POINTS are 100% valid. Here are my further comments on that:

 

(1) Nashville has PLENTY of excellent hides and hiders in excellent locations, but these are DROWNED OUT by the "white noise" of literally hundreds of lame lamppost/guardrail/bush/rockpile/random-roadside micros. It's OK to have "one or two or just a handful" of these types of caches, but not to BOMB the area with them. That's my opinion - many agree, and some disagree, and that's OK.

 

(2) Yes, Snoogans, the caches met the guidelines and were approved. Furthermore, folks hunted them and had good or not-so-good opinions about them, and (in response to the "Delete their logs/finds!" reactionaries who have posted) everyone who found them is ENTITLED to a stat (as well as said opinions!). Having said that, well yeah, I could see a hider getting upset if someone posted "Your cache sucked, thanks for the stat!" in their on-line log...a simple two-letter "SL" log entry gets the job done less offensively and also makes the point.

 

(3) Like it or not, the result of this is that Nashville has the "caching reputation" that it does (which is: "just come here to crank your stats, regardless of cache location quality"), which does a DISSERVICE to the caches and cachers of EXCELLENT quality (many caches of which are also 1-star diff/terr rated, by the way). How do THOSE cachers feel about this FACT? (Nashville'rs: Please read bullets (5) and (6) below before you respond.) And how would YOU feel if YOUR metro area and/or region had a similar rep within the larger caching community?

 

(4) Experienced cachers in other metro areas and regions need to encourage their cache hiders to place a DIVERSITY of different types of caches...and to pay attention to the caches ALREADY placed when making decisions about their own new placements, from a MODERATION consideration standpoint. And, sadly, if that means using Nashville (and other areas) as an example (where yes, there's diversity, but certain cachers have ignored the MODERATION part while BOMBING the area with particular hide/location choices), well, the caches got placed and (correctly) approved, and the peer commentary has occurred, so that's life. And, it's not JUST Nashville. Case in point: Dave's Note to Local Hiders.

 

(5) I respect (sincerely) the fact that Nashville cachers vigorously defend those cache hiders who have BOMBED the area with those types of caches as they have. I have MET many of these cachers during my travels to Nashville, and it's truly a great bunch of people. They've even made me feel welcome despite my well-documented opinions about many of their cache hides there...how can ya beat that? So, I am NOT PATRONIZING when I say any of this about these good folks...I am being totally sincere here. I also know that many of these hiders in question are mobility-impaired and tend to "hide 'em like they like to find 'em", and so to them, these caches are not "lame" at all, and in fact are their way to find a way to play our great game. In my opinion, that's all good - IN MODERATION. What these hiders have done, though, is NOT moderation...it's SATURATION of a particular type/quality of hide/location, and that's the point here.

 

(6) OK then, let's try to put a constructive spin on this. In response to Snoogans' CORRECT points in his sig line about our game and those who play it, as well as the points many Nashville'rs make about the fact that there IS cache diversity in Nashville, if only visiting cachers would take the time to identify said diversity before making their cache shopping lists:

 

Obviously TPTB recognize the desire for different cachers to play different variations of our game, what with the addition of new cache classifications, etc. These are steps in the right direction...so that now cachers have improved ways to filter out caches they might not enjoy before taking the time and effort to travel to them. Furthermore, those who use The Selector on their cache pages can include a "Less than 500 ft from car to cache" icon on their cache pages.

 

Could "Less than 50 ft from car to cache" and also "local visitor attraction" (sorry, a store parking lot is NOT a local visitor attraction, folks!) indicators, particularly if added as a new GC-approved classification, help us filter out these types of caches further (and also help ADD them to a shopping list if a "numbers run" or "mobility-impaired-friendly" experience *IS* desired)?? Remember, folks, NOT ALL MICROS ARE BAD, and when placed in a worthwhile-to-visit location, are generally GOOD even if the cache itself is "nothing special".

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[+Team Tigger International]

It's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

 

A cache is a cache is a effin' cache. Deriding other people's efforts to the general public is just plain lame.

 

I have been to plenty of lame caches, but I don't judge another's efforts by MY standards to anyone that doesn't share MY standard.

 

Lame, lame, lame.

 

Sn gans

 

BTW Notice my sig line?????

Ditto to that Snoog!

 

Its a shame that anyone feels they need to bash another persons fun .

 

Star of Team Tigger International

[+Renegade Knight]

...(1) Nashville has PLENTY of excellent hides and hiders in excellent locations, but these are DROWNED OUT by the "white noise" of literally hundreds of lame lamppost/guardrail/bush/rockpile/random-roadside micros.  It's OK to have "one or two or just a handful" of these types of caches, but not to BOMB the area with them.  That's my opinion - many agree, and some disagree, and that's OK....

Consider. Some great hikes I did in 2002 when there were very few caches in my area have many less finders in 2004. There are many more cachers though.

 

Even if those local cachers only placed great hikes, any one hike would literally be "Drowned out" by all the other great hikes to choose from.

 

This is nowhere near a tragedy. Neither is having to ignore caches to get to the ones you do like, of which there are more also.

 

As always what most people get out of geocaching is what they bring to it.

Edited December 7, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+sduck]

Sounds like a tantrum to me

- Could be. I've probably been over agitated by this, so I'm going to drop it. It's a shame, and that's that. Bottom line for me - the guys a mean man, and a bad sport. But there's a place for these kinds of people in geocaching. Doesn't mean I have to like them.

 

It's too bad that people feel the need to make generalizations about Nashville caches. I hope I can rise above this in the future. Thanks for your opinions.

[+drat19]

This is nowhere near a tragedy.  Neither is having to ignore caches to get to the ones you do like, of which there are more also.

And as usual, RK, you make a valid counterpoint.

 

As I pointed out elsewhere in my screed, as the tools improve to be ABLE to ignore some caches AHEAD OF TIME (and as I also pointed out indirectly, ignoring "ALL MICROS" is not a solution in this case) in order to make a shopping list of caches that one is more likely to enjoy, the better everyone's caching experiences will be.

 

-Dave R.

Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[+drat19]

It's too bad that people feel the need to make generalizations about Nashville caches.

You're right, it IS too bad about the generalizations, because there ARE so many well-placed caches in well-chosen locations around Nashville. BUT: You can't deny that the REASON for these generalizations, however incorrect they may be, is due to the SATURATION of these other types of caches that Myotis, and I, and others, are troubled by. Not one or two or a few, but the SATURATION.

 

-Dave R.

[+myotis]

I do not normally read the forums. Someone pointed this out to me so I feel I should respond since my cache is the one in question.

 

When I set up the cache I did not think about people from Nashville reading it. It is in St. Louis and it is directed at people in St. Louis. It was not intended to insult people from Nashville. It was my statement to the people in the St. Louis area about lame caches.

 

Nashville would be a great place to cache if something was done about all the lame caches. There are so many of them it overwhelms you.

 

Contrary to SDuck's claims I never said all the caches were lame or all the cache placers were lame. SDuck's comparison to judging an area based on 2 caches and calling my comments bigotry are laughable. I spent four days there. It was not just the cache run. Everywhere I went I was overwhelmed by lame caches. One can do easy caches that are not lame. There are lots of great places where one could place a cache. Finding micro after micro in a lamppost or shopping center bush gets old real quick. I went out on my own and with others from the St. Louis area and all we ran into was lame cache after lame cache with very few exceptions.

 

When I went to Nashville, I was disgusted by the lame caches. Everyone else I was there with was saying the same things about the caches and there was even talk about saying how lame the caches were in the log entries. But no one did that. I did not even put in my Geowoodstock log how disgusting it was to see one of the leaders littering several times in front of all the cachers (even kids). Cigarette butts are litter.

 

Like many other people I did not like all the lame caches, but I did not say that in any of my log entries. Sduck and others on the other hand post notes on my cache saying you do not like it and it is in poor taste. What hypocrites! I think having so many lame caches is in poor taste too.

 

If you are proud of what Nashville has, then what is your problem with my cache? You should thank me for free publicity. But you admit, "there ARE too many lame micros here." So why don't you spend your energy doing something about that instead of telling people to shoot the messenger? One of your top lame cachers that you are so proud of told me she hoped my life would be short and then deleted some of my logs. What a great bunch you have down there!

 

I would also point out most of the lame caches were on private property. None of them said permission was obtained. I am betting it was not. I bet if the cache approvers made the caches placers get permission to place the caches on private property (shopping centers are private property) that would cut down on lots of the lame caches.

 

Hey it is great getting numbers. But there is more to it than numbers. One can make easy interesting caches. Caches do not have to be lame to be easy. So my advice to you is if you do not like my cache and what many others say about Nashville, put peer pressure on those who place lame caches to find more interesting locations than a bush or lamppost in a Walmart or shopping center.

[+sduck]

SDuck's comparison to

 

As I said I'm dropping it. Have a nice life.

[+Markwell]

I never thought I would come down on this side of the fence, but here goes...

 

I actually applaud Myotis in his chutzpah for saying what he feels. He did it in such a way as to do it far removed from those it would directly affect. If Myotis thinks they're lame, where can he say it - Cache Logs? - nope, they'll get deleted by the disgruntled owner. Here in the forums? nope, he'll get flamed. Tennessee Group? (see flamed reference). His local group? - who would care? So he made a cache page that was an homage to something he thought needed to be said. He didn't slam individuals. He didn't even slam individual caches. He created a cache that said that an over-abundance of lame-micro-in-a-lamppost is not a good thing.

 

I've found a couple of really lame caches. However, I try to be polite in the logs and give a cursory TNLNSL. Some people put DPM. But most are just afraid of saying anything derogatory about a lame cache because they'll get their logs deleted.

 

How do these lame-micro-in-a-lamppost caches hurt you as an indivdual cacher? You can just ignore them.

 

Actually, no you can't. I'm going to be traveling through Nashville later this month, and I wanted to get a PQ of caches that might be intriguing. I've heard the reputation of Nashville, so in my PQ I said "any container except micros." How many great micros am I going to miss because of this? So while saturating an area with number-increasing park-and-grab caches will appeal to those with an affinity for high numbers, the noise created by these caches eliminate what might otherwise be a wonderful caching area.

 

I think a lot of the problems would be solved by some type of rating system. If that were implemented, I might be able to narrow my search down a little to include QUALITY micros.

 

I've drifted on a tangental topic and I'll bring it back here: ((AND THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION)) I applaud myotis for his ability to say what he feels in such a way that, had it not been brought to this forum, might have had minimal impact on the people placing these caches. Let the man say what he feels.

 

If someone wants to place a cache dissing Difficulty caches, I'm secure enough that I won't let it bother me.

[+carleenp]

Granted, he's got a point - there ARE too many lame micros here. But is it so bad that he has to make fun of ALL the caches and cachers in Nashville? Or am I being overly sensitive?

I looked and I think the cache page could have been much more tactful and some of the responses calmer. In the end, it equates to a big mess on a cache page that generally looks like it could be a fun multi-cache. All the angst would likely make me avoid that cache, so I suppose it could make others avoid finding it as well. That is unfortunate.

[+drat19]

Markwell, you know I'm in your corner on this. Here are some addendums to your points.

 

I actually applaud Myotis in his chutzpah for saying what he feels.  He did it in such a way as to do it far removed from those it would directly affect.  If Myotis thinks they're lame, where can he say it - Cache Logs? - nope, they'll get deleted by the disgruntled owner. Here in the forums? nope, he'll get flamed. Tennessee Group? (see flamed reference). His local group? - who would care? So he made a cache page that was an homage to something he thought needed to be said.  He didn't slam individuals.  He didn't even slam individual caches.  He created a cache that said that an over-abundance of lame-micro-in-a-lamppost is not a good thing.

Agreed. One of the reasons I've jumped all over this thread with my support is because I'm another who has been on the same crusade. Now, I didn't use a cache post as Myotis did...I've been doing it here on the forums, and through posting articles on my personal web site, which folks have linked in various places. At the risk of yet another shameless plug, here's my Markwell. Interestingly, the local St. Louis Geocaching group has linked my articles on their local web site...so apparently I'm not alone on this (and case in point, here we have Myotis, who I've never met and had never corresponded with before this issue/thread). My points have been largely the same as Myotis': Set a better example with cache hides in your area, and subtle (or not-so-subtle) peer pressure also goes a long way toward keeping an area's cache/location quality higher. Sadly, it often takes examples of what we think ought NOT to be done to make the point most effectively.

 

I think a lot of the problems would be solved by some type of rating system.  If that were implemented, I might be able to narrow my search down a little to include QUALITY micros.

Like many, I'd be curious if something so subjective could really work as intended...or if the ratings would become skewed. One person's "lame 1 out of 10" might be another's "great 10 out of 10".

 

I've heard the reputation of Nashville, so in my PQ I said "any container except micros."  How many great micros am I going to miss because of this?

Exactly! There are excellent micros everywhere, including Nashville. The local approver, in fact, is a prime hider of some GREAT micros in the area...go figure.

 

So while saturating an area with number-increasing park-and-grab caches will appeal to those with an affinity for high numbers, the noise created by these caches eliminate what might otherwise be a wonderful caching area.

I agree with you on this point as well, but in fairness I must point out that a large proportion of those caches were placed by and for folks who are mobility-impaired...which IS admirable in and of itself. The issue at hand is the SATURATION aspect, which also factors in those of all mobility/ability levels and introduces the whole "high numbers" issue. "Numbers runners" are all too happy to see "gimme 1/1" caches readily available (and I must admit that when I made my pass through Nashville last December, that was certainly one of my agendae...I just somehow had HOPED the locations would be something (anything!) better than SO MANY of the "any ol' lamppost/guardrail/bush/rockpile/roadside" variety. There were SOME that were better, but they were few and far between.).

 

I applaud myotis for his ability to say what he feels in such a way that, had it not been brought to this forum, might have had minimal impact on the people placing these caches. Let the man say what he feels.

I agree!! Unfortunately, thus far multiple discussions on these forums about cache/location quality have still had minimal impact in many areas...the "lame cache saturation" sore continues to fester. What's creative about Myotis' approach is that by placing an actual cache, he is sure to get the attention of any/all local St. Louis cachers (his INTENDED LOCAL AUDIENCE!)...many of whom might not read the forums, the local web site they have in their area, my articles, others' articles, or any other places where these points are made. Myotis is trying to proactively prevent that situation from occurring in his area...he's TAKING OWNERSHIP in the well-being of his area's reputation within the caching community, as well as trying to keep the quality high for the locals. ALL areas should have leaders who try to do this!

 

-Dave R.

Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[Pipanella]

Just want to say that thanks to myotis, I had a WONDERFUL caching experience in the Alton, Illinois area this summer.

[+OurWoods]

It's poor sportsmanship plain and simple.

 

A cache is a cache is a effin' cache. Deriding other people's efforts to the general public is just plain lame.

 

I have been to plenty of lame caches, but I don't judge another's efforts by MY standards to anyone that doesn't share MY standard.

 

Lame, lame, lame.

 

Sn gans

well said. My thoughts exactly! I had FUN caching this summer at GeoWoodstock, and I enjoyed being invited into the houses of TOTAL STRANGERS while on the cache runs. The people down in Nashville are great, and there were tons of very clever caches! I was really lucky on my cache run because I was with great people and we had a fun time, even finding a cache under a light post.

 

Sometimes I think people forget that not everyone has the same abilities and its nice that there are caches that appeal to everyone. Some people enjoy finding caches easily, and some people like a real challenge. I'm glad there are both kinds!

 

One thing I don't get is; if "myotis" was with other people from his area and they all hated finding the caches, why didnt they just stop caching that day?

[+drat19]

we had a fun time, even finding a cache under a light post.

How'd you feel after the 100th? The 150th? After considering your answer to those questions, ask yourself this: Would those 100-150 or more have been (even) more enjoyable if they'd been in a more creatively/interestingly-chosen location, rather than just any ol' parking lot or any ol' roadside? THAT is the point of this discussion.

 

One thing I don't get is; if "myotis" was with other people from his area and they all hated finding the caches, why didnt they just stop caching that day? 

I would suggest you read his comments in the log entries here. Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[+Mopar]

Here's my take on it.

Too much of even a good thing and it becomes a bad thing.

I wanted to see just what people were talking about, so I did some comparing.

First I ran a PQ for all active micro caches in my state. A got back a little over 100.

Then I ran the same thing centered on Nashville, and kept paring down the radius of my search until I got close. I had to pare my search down to 4 miles.

105 micro caches within 4 miles of my random spot (the center of the word "Nashville" on the map) sounds like maybe that might be too much of a good thing. Is it? I dunno, I haven't had the pleasure of caching there yet (Don't worry Joe, I'm gunna come knockin' on your door for a tour one of these days, I promise!), that's up to those that have been there, done that. While the idea of a weekend numbers run sounds like it might be fun, I really have to wonder if I would feel that way if I lived right in the middle of it all? I mean, NYC and Disneyworld are lots of fun for a weekend too, but I'd hate to live in either place.

[+Monkeybrad]

Saying I did not figure you would hear about it is not a good excuse for rude behavior. Just to clarify a couple of things, I have looked closely into Myotis' logs from the week of GeoWoodstock. It would appear that this was purely a numbers run. I base this on two things. One he signed up to go on a numbers run with a local cacher. The wagon train runs were well-advertised as lots of lightpole caches, no one ever implied that he would see "the good stuff". I also base this assertion on the fact that on the other days he was in Nashville and the surrounding area he in many cases drove by an interesting or difficult cache in order to log yet another easy, cheesy micro. In some cases he was 550 feet from a difficult cache, but either chose not to hunt it or not to log the dnf. A careful review of the logged caches from the trip shows very few attempts at difficult caches. I did fid three attempts at apparently difficult caches. In one case he was the victim of a joke cache, so that can be forgiven. In the second case he was taken to it by the cache owner. In the third case he hunted for it for over half and hour before asking a local to show him where it was. On the last one he logged that he found it quickly.

 

I am all for Myotis' right to say whatever he wants to, I will fight to defend that right. However, in this case I believe that his opinion is not well-formed and that he does not have the knowledge of the area in question to make such broad statements. I think that if you are going to make statements like this then you need to be able to back them up or at least do us the courtesy of telling the entire story.

 

The truth is he signed up for a numbers run and then got mad that he missed out on the quality. That is fine, but I do think it is rather poor form to post a page insulting an entire community, particularly a community that opened it's arms to you and played host for your entertainment. I know for a fact that your cache was viewed as a heavy insult by the Nashville caching community, it is also my belief that you meant it that way.

 

I am not sure how they do things in the Myotis household, but my mother taught me that you are polite and appreciative to your hosts. I have been to many dinners where the host could not cook, but I have never once stood up and said that the food sucked. I have also refrained from going home and placing a billboard that says "Mrs. XXXX sucks as a cook and her food is appalling". I have always choked down what was offered and returned a genuine "thank you". If I am not satisfied by what is offered freely in the spirit of hospitality, it is not my hosts fault, that is my own shortcoming.

 

I have hunted all over the country and part of Europe and I have seen good and bad caches everywhere I have been. I think this game is like most of the rest of life, you only find what you are already carrying with you. It has been said here by one wiser than myself, the only way to fail at this game, is to fail to have fun. I am sorry that you failed in Nashville.

[+The Leprechauns]

I spent roughly the same amount of time in Nashville as did Myotis, but my experience was different. I defined for myself what I wanted to do each day, I went out and did it, and I had fun with each of the varied experiences. For this trip, I had the good fortune of being in the company of Carleenp.

 

On Thursday we had dinner with the Nashville hardcore cachers. Afterwards they watched us tackle one of the more devious mystery caches I've ever seen. We made a good first impression by finding it in about 10 or 15 minutes. And we had FUN! Then we found a few caches along the route to our campsite. Camping was FUN!

 

On Friday we intentionally chose to find caches in the rural area surrounding the state park where we camped. Some of these involved long hikes. Some were in small rural cemeteries that gave us a flavor for the history of the area. A few were evil micros. One was in a wildlife management area that reminded Carleen of Nebraska. But because these caches were outside of Nashville proper, NONE of the other visiting hordes of powercachers logged a single one of these caches during their visit. They were good caches and they were available to Myotis or anyone else who chose to hunt them. We did, and we were glad for our choice. We had FUN. And we managed to find these gems amongst all the lamp post micros without any trouble, through the use of pocket queries and filtering.

 

On Saturday we attended the event and then set off with a group to find all the caches in the park, many of which were caches sponsored by Warner Parks. These were for the most part high-quality finds, involving ammo boxes along nice wooded trails, or deceptive containers like a fake birdhouse. We did not bother participating in the poker run, preferring instead to enjoy each others' company and to find more good caches in the beautiful park. We had more FUN that way. It was our choice. Others made different choices. We were easily able to pick out our own path without stumbling across a single guardrail cache that day.

 

On Sunday after a hearty breakfast, beginning at 10:00 a.m. we found 240 caches in 24 hours to set the then-current world record. Most of these were lamp post micros, guardrail micros and micros in the bushes. I would never go out and find just one of these; it wouldn't be fun. Maybe for someone in a wheelchair, it would be. But string that many together, and it was the most FUN I've ever had while geocaching... not because of the spectacular caches, but because of the craziness of finding so many, and in such good company. And along the way, we *did* find a number of high-quality caches, three of which appear on my all-time favorites list. If you want to go to Nashville and find ONLY caches like those three, you could keep busy for days. If you cannot filter for them yourself, screening out the 1/1's and so forth, ask Monkeybrad or Jogps, I am sure they would put together a list for you so that you could maximize your FUN.

 

On Monday we didn't do much caching past 10:00 a.m.

 

I had no trouble having a FUN geocaching experience in Nashville. Even putting aside the 200 or so "lame" micros, I still had an overdose of FUN. That is due to three things:

 

1. A bit of planning, that anyone can do.

2. Good caches to find.

3. The excellent, unparalleled hospitality and good humor of the Nashville geocachers.

 

If someone else was unable to have fun in Nashville, I submit that it is their own fault for not seeking out an experience that they would find meaningful. I also submit that they have every right to complain about it, and let others judge those complaints for whatever they're worth.

[+fly46]

Saying I did not figure you would hear about it is not a good excuse for rude behavior. Just to clarify a couple of things, I have looked closely into Myotis' logs from the week of GeoWoodstock. It would appear that this was purely a numbers run. I base this on two things. One he signed up to go on a numbers run with a local cacher. The wagon train runs were well-advertised as lots of lightpole caches, no one ever implied that he would see "the good stuff". I also base this assertion on the fact that on the other days he was in Nashville and the surrounding area he in many cases drove by an interesting or difficult cache in order to log yet another easy, cheesy micro. In some cases he was 550 feet from a difficult cache, but either chose not to hunt it or not to log the dnf. A careful review of the logged caches from the trip shows very few attempts at difficult caches. I did fid three attempts at apparently difficult caches. In one case he was the victim of a joke cache, so that can be forgiven. In the second case he was taken to it by the cache owner. In the third case he hunted for it for over half and hour before asking a local to show him where it was. On the last one he logged that he found it quickly.

 

I am all for Myotis' right to say whatever he wants to, I will fight to defend that right. However, in this case I believe that his opinion is not well-formed and that he does not have the knowledge of the area in question to make such broad statements. I think that if you are going to make statements like this then you need to be able to back them up or at least do us the courtesy of telling the entire story.

 

The truth is he signed up for a numbers run and then got mad that he missed out on the quality. That is fine, but I do think it is rather poor form to post a page insulting an entire community, particularly a community that opened it's arms to you and played host for your entertainment. I know for a fact that your cache was viewed as a heavy insult by the Nashville caching community, it is also my belief that you meant it that way.

 

I am not sure how they do things in the Myotis household, but my mother taught me that you are polite and appreciative to your hosts. I have been to many dinners where the host could not cook, but I have never once stood up and said that the food sucked. I have also refrained from going home and placing a billboard that says "Mrs. XXXX sucks as a cook and her food is appalling". I have always choked down what was offered and returned a genuine "thank you". If I am not satisfied by what is offered freely in the spirit of hospitality, it is not my hosts fault, that is my own shortcoming.

 

I have hunted all over the country and part of Europe and I have seen good and bad caches everywhere I have been. I think this game is like most of the rest of life, you only find what you are already carrying with you. It has been said here by one wiser than myself, the only way to fail at this game, is to fail to have fun. I am sorry that you failed in Nashville.

[+drat19]

Brad, as usual you and I know where "each other" stands on this discussion, so no need to rehash between us. Furthermore, I don't know Myotis personally, and although I've been his biggest supporter on this thread because I agree with his perspective on this matter, he's a grown man and I leave him to respond himself to any comments aimed directly at him.

 

I DO, however, wish to comment on one of the points you made:

 

The truth is he signed up for a numbers run and then got mad that he missed out on the quality.

Brad, why do these 2 need to be mutually exclusive?? Myotis, I, and others have been making the point all along that it IS possible to place "easy", mobility-impaired-friendly caches in worthwhile-to-visit locations, if only those hiders would put in the EFFORT to find those locations...instead of just driving around and looking for ANY place to put a container - which is CLEARLY what these hiders have done. YOU CAN'T DENY THIS. And by BOMBING the area with these choices, they set an impossible-to-ignore example on which new cachers base their own hides (because new hiders will tend to copy what they see until they find enough other caches to form their own standards) - which is what causes the sore to fester, and which is what causes an area to get its reputation...whether 100% accurate or not.

 

-Dave R.

Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[+wimseyguy]

I gotta agree with everything MB just posted here. There appears to be no attempt at any humor in the cache page. It is simply a mean spirited swipe at a community with plenty of all types of caches to hunt. I speak from experience, 25% of my finds are there. On the days we did the numbers runs we knew there were less exciting hides in our future, so the fun came from can we guess which lightpole it is before we cross the parking lot, or can we reach it without even getting out of the van? And just how many meals can be found in drive thorughs and eaten in the van without pitstops?

Who cares if there is a special place or view when you are only there for 90 seconds on a numbers run? If the view is so spectacular then you lose valuable time finding more caches. One 'lame' micro took me to the parking lot of a well known commercial kitchen manufacturing plant that is open for tours. As a professional chef, I really wanted to visit, but was on an agreed upon numbers run with my teammates having FUN doing that. I'll return to Franklin another time for that experinece (during daytime hours of course ).

 

On another day we spent some time looking for the quality as well as the quantity. It's there if you do some research and read the cache page logs. There is also a well organized listing at the MTGC website.

 

A better way to set an 'example' for your home turf is to share your experience on a local discussion group, ensure that your hides are quality ones, and avoid that which you now criticize. Nashville is happy and proud if the identity they have as a caching community and I salute them for that. It is not the identity I want for my home turf, but I would never insult them like that. I have worked with other local cachers to create our own identity here that we are proud of.

I recently read of another myotis hide in a wilderness area in MO. I can't quite figure out how the same person has created both cache pages.

 

FUN like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[+fly46]

Dave...

 

Many of the 'lame' caches that he went to on the run were caches in shopping centers. We put them there so that when you're out shopping, you can grab a quick cache if you want to. Because we were doing a numbers run, we started out at a MALL and went out from there. Some were micros under lightpoles in parking lots, yes.

 

I can't speak for his group, but I can tell you that my group also found micros at Johnny Cache's studio, one at a Television station, extremely clever containers (more than one local cacher uses fake dog doo), nice locations, etc..

 

Even more than that, with some of the caches, the reason why we were there wasn't obvious unless you read the cache page. One of the caches we did that *seemed* to be a micro in a run of the mill so-called 'lame' location was this one, which if you read the cache page, you'll see why the cache was there. Others were hidden in interesting sculptures. We have one restaurant that has a five piece band in it's front yard made out of metal. It's really neat to see. So what if the cache there is a magnetic keyholder inside of one of the guys? Chances are that he was at that one, seeing as though it's like a mile from where we all parked to start off.

 

Yeah, I get *your* point, but do you understand what we're saying about doing a numbers run? The point was for numbers and nothing else.

 

Ditto what Lep said, too.

[+graveyard mom]

Well, I tell ya what, for being a new cacher in Nashville, I don't know what to think now.

 

So far I have mostly only hunted rural caches and ones within a few miles from my home. Some were lightpoles, but being that I am new, I thought it was pretty clever as I didn't even know those things moved! So now with other opinions thrown in I don't know whether to bother even going up to Nashville proper to look for any, if they are mostly all so "lame".

 

Also, being new, and not having hidden a cache myself yet-this is terribly discouraging and makes me not want to hide one at all for fear of being considered "lame".

 

I know, I know, everyone will say "just don't hide one at Wal-mart under a lightpole and you won't be lame". So what will be the next person's idea of lame?

[+Monkeybrad]

Dave, we do know where we stand, and I really do not think that the quality of the caches is what should be at issue here. There are good ones and bad ones. I will offer this, in my opinion, there are about 300 so called "lame caches" in Middle Tennessee, most of those in Nashville. I have hidden six of these and found all of them. There are 1400 other quality caches in the area. You get what you search for. I agree with Lep's well thought out post entirely. Any problems with the quality of Nashville caches can be dealt with by planning just a little bit. We have more lame caches than many other areas, but we have more caches than many other areas. Comparing middle Tennessee to other areas I have hunted, I do not find that the percentage of lame caches is significantly higher. The fact is whether it is Nashville or anywhere else, when you blow through on a numbers run you will most likely miss the better caches. I can accept this when I am running through an area. To make up for it I try to select some moore challenging caches when I am out running. Week before last, I went after the Project APE cache in Maryland, I also hunted the easy stuff on the way. The APE cache was challenging and fun, the others were easy caches. I chose that and you will not find me running them down. As you said we know where we stand and there is no need to rehash that in this thread. Besides I do not think that is the issue here.

 

I think the real issue here is not the quality of the caches, but the quality of the character of the cacher who would post such an offensive and divisive page.

[+Markwell]

If the view is so spectacular then you lose valuable time finding more caches. One 'lame' micro took me to the parking lot of a well known commercial kitchen manufacturing plant that is open for tours. As a professional chef, I really wanted to visit, but was on an agreed upon numbers run with my teammates having FUN doing that. I'll return to Franklin another time for that experinece (during daytime hours of course).

I find this a very interesting pair of statements.

 

I'm paraphrasing, so please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

If I read this correctly, you'd rather find the micro cache and move on to another micro cache instead of enjoy a spectacular view. You'd pass up on visiting a commercial kitchen manufacturing plant that has real interest for you - and instead press on to find the next lamp pole.

 

No inuendo here, just trying to understand your point of view.

[+drat19]

Dave...

 

(snip)

 

Yeah, I get *your* point, but do you understand what we're saying about doing a numbers run?  The point was for numbers and nothing else.

Yes, respectfully, I do get your counterpoint as well. Yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

My counterpoint to that, however, is about 5-6 posts up in this thread....my response to Brad's comment re "mutually exclusive".

 

-Dave R.

Edited December 7, 2004 by drat19

[+The Leprechauns]

Graveyard mom, don't be discouraged. Do your own thing. I am guessing from your name that you like cemeteries. If you're looking for guidance, go find r0b's Sugar Camp Hollow Cemetery. It's a bear to get to, and a cool little spot once you find it. The ammo box will take a few minutes to find because it's well-hidden. Remember that hide and duplicate it.

 

Go find every cool little cemetery with 30 miles of your home coordinates that doesn't have a cache in it. Ask for permission where appropriate, and hide tasteful caches there which are well away from any headstones. People will thank you for it, and I will personally hunt for them during my next trip.

 

Abby's Grammy chose to hide 101 Dalmation micros in areas she can easily access. You can make a different choice that is tailored to your tastes and interests. That is the beauty of geocaching... there is room for all kinds.

[+fly46]

Abby's Grammy chose to hide 101 Dalmation micros ....

 

EssPea's the Dalmation Lady... (not that that matters much)

 

Markwell, I think she meant that she had decided to spend that day having fun spending time caching... whatever kind of caches that they happened to find... and that she would enjoy other things other times. Sorta like You've decided to go to Disney for the rides, so enjoy the park instead of staying in the hotel room watching football, even though you really want to watch the UT/UGA game.

[+graveyard mom]

Graveyard mom, don't be discouraged.  Do your own thing.  I am guessing from your name that you like cemeteries.  If you're looking for guidance, go find r0b's Sugar Camp Hollow Cemetery.  It's a bear to get to, and a cool little spot once you find it.  The ammo box will take a few minutes to find because it's well-hidden.  Remember that hide and duplicate it.

 

Go find every cool little cemetery with 30 miles of your home coordinates that doesn't have a cache in it.  Ask for permission where appropriate, and hide tasteful caches there which are well away from any headstones.  People will thank you for it, and I will personally hunt for them during my next trip.

 

Abby's Grammy chose to hide 101 Dalmation micros in areas she can easily access.  You can make a different choice that is tailored to your tastes and interests.  That is the beauty of geocaching... there is room for all kinds.

Thanks Leprechauns-yep, I am actually helping the local historical society update the books on the status of ones around here on the ones in our county. I've thought about doing that, putting small ones in them-most of the ones around here are abandoned. I'll have to look into doing that, since it is up my alley. As for Sugar Camp Hollow-I actually have it on my watch list and hope to get to it one day!

 

Being new, I won't know the ones described above until I start finding them I guess and will have to go from there. I've singled out the cemetery ones I could find and will definitely pass up most of the rest to get to them. And when I get in the mood to "up my numbers" I guess I can go back and get the others!

[+The Leprechauns]

Abby's Grammy chose to hide 101 Dalmation micros ....

 

EssPea's the Dalmation Lady... (not that that matters much)

Oops! Major faux pas. Sorry. I was thinking of other series like "Sit a Spell" and "Itty Bitty."

 

They sorta do run together a bit, y'know.

[+fly46]

Abby's Grammy chose to hide 101 Dalmation micros ....

 

EssPea's the Dalmation Lady... (not that that matters much)

Oops! Major faux pas. Sorry. I was thinking of other series like "Sit a Spell" and "Itty Bitty."

 

They sorta do run together a bit, y'know.

I know they do.

After you do a bunch in a row you start to get delirious and can't remember if you've done that one or not.

 

AG does itty bitty and sit a spell

EP does the Dalmatians

NashvilleJoe does Steeple Chase

I'll have the chinese zodiac up soon

NeuroCacher has his... I don't know if they're all micros but everyone I've found so far is.. (they're just named Neuro followed by a number)

[+The Leprechauns]

NeuroCacher has his... I don't know if they're all micros but everyone I've found so far is.. (they're just named Neuro followed by a number)

Those are *EVIL*!!!

[+sbell111]

I don't really see the problem with this cache page.

 

No specific cacher or cache was identified. It is my experience that Nashville has more micros hidden in locations that some would not find interesting. The cache owner merely stated that he hopes St. Louis does not go down this path.

 

Why is this an issue???

[+myotis]

Once again, I did not think about the possibility of people from Nashville reading the cache page. If I had, I likely would have been more careful in my wording. It was not intended as an insult to anyone and it was not directed at people in Nashville. It is in St. Louis and it was my statement to my fellow cachers in St. Louis about lame caches. I will edit the wording of the cache page.

 

I have spent hundreds of hours setting up and dealing with my 103 cache hides. I was careful on every one of them to give people a good enjoyable experience. I have provided over 3,000 cache finds and I get comment after comment thanking me for my caches. People make my caches their 50th, 100th, 500th, 1000th, 3000th all the time. Here is an example of one of my caches: Titus Hollow

 

I think having good quality caches is important. That is the point of my page. Easy does not have to equal lame. One or two lame caches by a newbie is one thing. But multiple people saturating an area with hundreds of lame caches instead of taking a little more time to find an interesting location or add a twist is another.

 

Some of Monkeybrad's comments deserve a response.

 

He said, "It would appear that this was purely a numbers run." I have never denied that I was wanting to get some numbers. The point of my cache was I do not want the St. Louis Area to be bombed with lame caches. Hey, I've done numbers runs before, but I have never had such an overwhelming percentage of lame caches. Easy does not have to equal lame. A couple of weeks ago, I did a "numbers run" tp Olney, IL. I got more than 75. Not one single one of them was a lame cache. They had fake rocks (they drive me crazy), decoys, hollow bricks, bird houses, fake craydad holes, horse turds, great hikes, neat areas, etc.

 

He said, "One he signed up to go on a numbers run with a local cacher. The wagon train runs were well-advertised as lots of light pole caches, no one ever implied that he would see 'the good stuff'." I do not recall being told it would be almost all lamppost, bushes in shopping centers, etc. The cache page states, "There will be "Wagon Train Cache "RUN"" on Sunday July 4th in several groups. For those coming for a numbers run this it: a high-speed, blurred tour of area caches with a minimum of 100 caches in less than 12 hours!"

 

I enjoyed the company of the people on the cache run. I appreciated being taken around. But it would have been much more fun if the caches were not so lame. A run of easy caches in nice locations would have been much more fun. The point of my cache is I do not want St. Louis to get bombed with hundreds of lame caches. I do easy caches in nice locations or with an interesting twist all the time. It is so much more fun to do a cache like that then lift a lamppost in a Walmart shopping center.

 

He stated, "I also base this assertion on the fact that on the other days he was in Nashville and the surrounding area he in many cases drove by an interesting or difficult cache in order to log yet another easy, cheesy micro. In some cases he was 550 feet from a difficult cache, but either chose not to hunt it or not to log the dnf." Without any specifics, this is hard to respond to. I do not recall ever being 550 from another cache and not checking it out. Anyway it is hard to tell what is an interesting or challenging cache when there are so many lame caches. When we went on the cache run, we were able to go to some unplanned ones since there were several of us hitting 1000 that day. Everyone I was taken too that was supposed to be hard I found in a coupe of minutes. I liked the magnetic numbers (I found in about 1 minute) that was creative and I have never seen that before. We were taken to a new one in some railroad ties. The fake spike was the second place I looked and was cleaver and well done. When I was out before and after the cache run, I was trying to find more interesting ones. But when the area is saturated with lame caches, that is hard to do. You seem to be trying to change the subject.

 

He states, "A careful review of the logged caches from the trip shows very few attempts at difficult caches. I did fid three attempts at apparently difficult caches. In one case he was the victim of a joke cache, so that can be forgiven. In the second case he was taken to it by the cache owner. In the third case he hunted for it for over half and hour before asking a local to show him where it was. On the last one he logged that he found it quickly." It is hard to respond to this when you do not name the caches. I did not look for any cache more than 10 minutes so I a really wonder what one you are talking about.

 

He states, "I am all for Myotis' right to say whatever he wants to, I will fight to defend that right. However, in this case I believe that his opinion is not well-formed and that he does not have the knowledge of the area in question to make such broad statements. I think that if you are going to make statements like this then you need to be able to back them up or at least do us the courtesy of telling the entire story." Like I have said, I never thought about someone from Nashville reading the cache page. If I had, I would have chosen different words. The cache is in St. Louis and it was my statement on my feelings about lame caches. You do not dispute my points that there are all kinds of lame caches in Nashville and easy does not have to equal lame. I have not deleted one single note on the cache page that has been critical and much more insulting than anything I have said. I am not stopping anyone from stating a counter view. Everyone else I know that has cached in Nashville got the same impression I did. One was stopped caching for a long time they were so upset with all the lame caches.

 

He also states, "it is also my belief that you meant it that way." And you are critical from me judging! If I wanted to insult them, I would have done it in my logs. You can believe what you want, but I did not think about people from Nashville reading it. The cache is in St. Louis and it is my statement pointing out what I do not like.

 

If one keeps quite about things, nothing will ever change. I chose to speak up to try to keep the kind of lame cache problem Nashville has out of St. Louis. I like the numbers, but some things are more important than numbers. A few days ago, I was caching in an area and after hiking in a ways, my GPS was pointing to some private property and there was nothing in the description about having permission to go on the land. If I only cared about numbers, I would have gone on the private land. But I turned back and pasted a note asking the cache owner to address the private property issue.

 

The issue is easy does not have to equal lame. If you have no problem with lame caches, why complain about me pointing out all the lame caches?

 

The cache was a light hearted effort to point out the problems of lame caches. It was not intended to insult people from Nashville. I never thought about the possibility of people from Nashville reading it.

 

But IMHO, you have a lame cache problem in Nashville.

[+sbell111]

You know, I reread the cache page and I realized something....

 

Shame on me.

 

Shame on me and all the other cachers in the Nashville area that failed to show the visiting cachers some of the truly awesome middle Tennessee caches. There truly are some wonderful hikes, historical micros, thoughtful puzzles, and evil hides in the area. It is our fault for only showing visitors 'numbers runs'.

[+fly46]

You know, I reread the cache page and I realized something....

 

Shame on me.

 

Shame on me and all the other cachers in the Nashville area that failed to show the visiting cachers some of the truly awesome middle Tennessee caches. There truly are some wonderful hikes, historical micros, thoughtful puzzles, and evil hides in the area. It is our fault for only showing visitors 'numbers runs'.

Why do you say that? We're at fault because a visiting cacher signed up for a cache run and didn't chose to do any other caching on his trip here?

And I think that comment is a little rude to come from you, anyway, seeing that you have but three caches still active and one of those is in California.

 

 

Once again, I did not think about the possibility of people from Nashville reading the cache page.

Have you ever been in the forums before? We refer to other caches around here all the time - not to mention how many Nashville cachers have been to your caches. Just FYI, TNLadybug, Little Ladybug and MrSimple have family in your area but live here in cacheville.

 

 

I did not look for any cache more than 10 minutes

Gee! We have a winner! Now think about this statement for a minute. You're complaining about our caches but you didn't spend any time looking? That shows me that you didn't do much else other than the numbers run.

 

It was not intended to insult people from Nashville.

Then why did you name it after us?

[+The Leprechauns]

You know, I reread the cache page and I realized something....

 

Shame on me.

 

Shame on me and all the other cachers in the Nashville area that failed to show the visiting cachers some of the truly awesome middle Tennessee caches. There truly are some wonderful hikes, historical micros, thoughtful puzzles, and evil hides in the area. It is our fault for only showing visitors 'numbers runs'.

I wouldn't worry so much. I had plenty of offers for assistance from Nashville cachers, both when planning my trip and once I arrived. And that is above and beyond the top-secret plan for the attempt to break the 24 hour caching record. Jogps and Robertlipe were among the people whose advance work helped to make my visit a pleasant and fun trip. And once I arrived, there was no shortage of additional tips: "don't miss the such-and-such cache." I cannot think of any way that the Nashville cachers were not helpful, except for not answering questions that I did not think to ask.

 

When I travel to a new area, I make it a point to contact a well-known geocacher or two in that area to get the scoop on some good cache recommendations. This is true whether or not it's GeoWoodstock. Advice from advanced planning has netted me a handful of OtisPug caches in Southern California (instead of park and grabs), a trip to Whidbey Island in Washington (instead of micros in Redmond), a hike on the Appalachian trail in Southeastern Pennsylvania (instead of Starbucks caches), a trip to Red Rock Canyon outside of Las Vegas (in addition to the virtuals on "The Strip") and so forth. I am happy to return the favor for anyone visiting Southwestern Pennsylvania.

 

If you're not willing to do the research, whether through pocket queries or writing to other geocachers, then I can't get too worked up when I hear complaints about the results.

[+Mopar]

Have you ever been in the forums before? We refer to other caches around here all the time - not to mention how many Nashville cachers have been to your caches. Just FYI, TNLadybug, Little Ladybug and MrSimple have family in your area but live here in cacheville.

Uhm, look at his post count.

3.5yrs of caching and only 2 forum posts. Those 2 are in this thread.

 

And I think that comment is a little rude to come from you, anyway, seeing that you have but three caches still active and one of those is in California.

And that comment is a bit harsh considering he was in a horrific car accident earlier in the year and probably has had much more pressing issues then hiding and finding geocaches the last 6 months.

[+sbell111]

Why do you say that? We're at fault because a visiting cacher signed up for a cache run and didn't chose to do any other caching on his trip here?

And I think that comment is a little rude to come from you, anyway, seeing that you have but three caches still active and one of those is in California.

Yes. We are at fault because we invited people to the area and then failed to show them the best that we have to offer.

 

It is true that I currently only have four active caches. I've archived my micros and one other cache. I think that it is appropriate to mention that the bulk of the micros were historical places, quiet little parks, and interesting hides or places (and one lame one).

 

I don't really understand what any of my hides (or the number of active ones) have to do with this issue. I archived the ones that I did for the same reason that I haven't been actively caching in the last several months. Due to injuries sustained in my car 'accident', I am not able to get out-and-about as I once did. This was causing maintenance problems with some of my caches. So I archived them. Of course, these injuries are also why I did not participate (other than a brief appearance) at geowoodstock. I was, therefore, unable to show our visitors the best that the area had to offer.

[+Team Tigger International]

Ya ever think that "lame" micros may be the only caches some of our fellow geocacher may be physically able to do . Such as Handicapped cachers , or others with health problems in that a long hike may be to much for them ?

 

Thats the wonderful thing about geocaching , it lets everyone play .

 

What is lame to one may be a great way to enjoy the sport/game to another. Its been my experience when caching with children they are simply thrilled that they were able to "find" the cache at all .

 

To single out an Area , or fellow cacher to get "your" opinion across is just simply poor sportsmanship.

 

Star

[+drat19]

Ya ever think that "lame" micros may be the only caches some of our fellow geocacher may be physically able to do . Such as Handicapped cachers , or others with health problems in that a long hike may be to much for them ?

 

Thats the wonderful thing about geocaching , it lets everyone play .

 

What is lame to one may be a great way to enjoy the sport/game to another. Its been my experience when caching with children they are simply thrilled that they were able to "find" the cache at all .

 

To single out an Area , or fellow cacher to get "your" opinion across is just simply poor sportsmanship.

 

Star

If you haven't already done so, please re-read this thread and Myotis' cache page. The issue is not as much about so-called "lame" caches in general...it's about BOMBING an area with them (mobility-impaired-friendly or otherwise) to the point of drowning out so many others.

 

-Dave R.

[+Team Tigger International]

 

To single out an Area , or fellow cacher to get "your" opinion across is just simply poor sportsmanship.

 

Star

If you haven't already done so, please re-read this thread and Myotis' cache page. The issue is not as much about so-called "lame" caches in general...it's about BOMBING an area with them (mobility-impaired-friendly or otherwise) to the point of drowning out so many others.

 

-Dave R.

I have read the cache page , and all of the posts here . Still my primary and basic point seems to keep being overlooked. Everyone has a right to there opinion and can express it anyway they see fit . I still maintain that singling out the people of Nashville is in poor Taste.