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Walden Pond

? Moving Cache

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I apologize this so long, but I want to explain a novel cache idea I created that was rejected by Groundspeak. They suggested I post a message to see

what the Geocaching community thinks. If the majority believes that it

should be posted, then Groundspeak administrators and approvers may review

the listing and the cache may be unarchived.

 

Here is the cache idea:

 

"This is a new game I have invented for those of us who have found all of the caches in the area, but still can't get enough. Dyslexia:The Game is the next stage in Geocaching's evolution.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Have you ever manually entered coordinates, only to later discover you entered them incorrectly and had been searching in vain?! Uh...me either...but I have heard of this happening to other neophytes. Whether you call it "Fat Finger Syndrome", "Predementia Geocachitus" or "Dyslexia", it can lead to unnecessary frustration. Now you have the chance to turn it around and frustrate someone else!

 

How to Play

 

The above coordinates are for the middle of Deep Run Park in Western Henrico County. The cache is hidden within the park boundaries, but not at the above coordinates (well, maybe it is...keep reading!)

 

The degrees and minutes will always be the same (i.e. North 37° 37 West 077° 35) but the seconds will change each time the cache is found. How they change is up to the person who finds the cache! For example, the North coordinates are 37° 37.546. Those who suffer with Dyslexia often reverse or transpose numbers. Instead of 37° 37.536, they might record 37° 37.645, or 37° 37.564. With 3 digits in the North second coordinates and 3 digits in the West second coordinates that could be transposed, the number of possible locations could be endless (not really, but I'll let you do the statistical calculations)

 

The Rules

 

1) The North second coordinates can be transposed in any order, as can the West second coordinates, BUT the North coord numbers must stay together, as do the West numbers. For example, if the North numbers were 12.345 and West numbers were 67.890, you can mingle the North numbers any way you'd like (12.543, 12.435, etc) but you can't put the West numbers in place of the North numbers (ie North coord numbers cannot be 67.890!)

 

2) You can transpose the North second numbers, or the West second numbers, or both at the same time!

 

3) Once you find the cache, sign the log book and record the current coordinates. Trade items are welcomed but not mandatory.

 

4) Move the cache to another location within the park using a new sequence of the same numbers.(See Rule #1)

 

5) The cache must remain out in the open. It is a small (3 1/2 inch diameter) Gatorade container that has been camouflaged as a rock (See photo) in order to protect it from muggles. It should be easy to see, once you find the location. No fair hiding it under sticks, leaves, or logs. Keep it on the ground. Hiding it among other rocks is allowed (but nasty).

 

6) You can only log one Find; all others should be logged as Notes.

 

7) You may search for it as often as you'd like!

 

8) This is an evolving game, so new rules may be added. Once everyone is comfortable with the rules, I may throw minutes AND seconds into the mix, or even move the container to a larger park.

 

How To Win

The number of days the cache remains unfound will be tallied.

 

There will be Awards for:

 

The Most Finds

 

Longest Hide (location that goes the longest undiscoverd)

 

Quickest Find (location found the quickest)

 

The Geocacher's name will appear under the award title, until they are dethroned by another player! "

 

Administration wrote " I am sorry, but the current guidelines do not support caches that move in anyway."

 

I understand Groundspeak's need to deny traveling caches and I agree with the policy to not approve them. This cache is not a traveling cache, as it will remain within a specific area at all times, and can be easily found by starting at the listed coordinates. Traveling caches have an infinite number of possible hiding spots. This cache has a limited and finite number of locations, all accessible within walking

distance from where the cacher starts his search (at the listed coordinates). Think of this cache as a multi-cache, with 54 locations.

 

One of the reasons behind creating this cache was the fact that most Geocachers in the Richmond Virginia have found all of the caches in our area. Most fans

and supporters of Geocaching now have to drive hours away in order to find a cache. All of the "good" locations currently have caches, and now people are

forced to place caches in questionable, uncomfortable and illegal places. Many of the recent caches approved in Richmond are on private property or heavily

congested areas.

 

This cache may be groundbreaking, because it will allow those who have found all of the caches in the area (but still want to enjoy Geocaching on a frequent basis) to search for a cache. The benefits of this type of cache are it is always available but possibly never in the same place twice, although it IS in the same general area. This cache does meet the guidelines of Cache Permanence. Also, it allows people to better understand their GPSr, how GPS works, and will make them better Geocachers!

 

While there is one other cache in this same park, my Dyslexia cache will in no way interfere with this cache, because the Dyslexia cache container is known

to the searcher and will be sitting out in the open. It is a camouflaged cache, shaped as a rock that I created out of fiberglass (Bondo), so it cannot be discovered by muggles. I posted a photo of it on the web page, in order to make finding it easy for Geocachers. Also, I will add to the rules that certain areas of the park will offlimits (like the rest rooms, or any maintenance equipment storage areas).

 

The reviewer's initial concern was "the problem with the cache is that each and every time the cache needs moving, 2 things will need to be done:

1. You will have to ARCHIVE the cache.

2. I will have to change the coordinates"

 

But if you read the guidelines for this cache, you will see this is not the case. Again, think of this cache as a multi-cache, with 54 locations. The seeker

knows the parameters of the cache coordinates, and that only the second coordinates can change. The rules state that any potential combination can only be

correct if the coordinates are within the park, and not in any off limit areas. A large park is a perfect location for this cache, since it keeps people from

sensitive areas (especially in our terrorist suspect world), and allows them to enjoy the full range of the park.

_________________________________

 

So what do YOU think?

 

I would like to give this a chance, in order to allow Geocachers to maintain their interest and support (including monetary) of the sport. Otherwise, people will get

bored, and lose interest if the only caches they can find are while on vacation or while traveling long distances. Geocaching is an excellent family activity,

and helps promote family centered exercise and appreciation of nature. This cache allows families to enjoy a park while Geocaching, keeps children safe (no dangerous or questionable areas to search in), and promotes CITO.

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I think this is a creative idea, but it doesn't seem to me that this is truly any different than other moving caches that stay within a single park, and those are now not allowed. Your idea would work if no one made a mistake when rehiding it - but such mistakes are bound to happen. The likely outcome of such a mistake is that the cache is gone forever, leaving the poor seeker to search a large area, and come up empty handed. Also, it's entirely possible that someone could move it to a location that would not be approvable. (Presumably, though, you'd carefully pick your spot so that every place was approvable.) If it were found by non-cachers and removed or destroyed, how would you know?

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Its technically a moving cache, but because it is confined to a finite number of spots it does not bring with it the potential problems that resulted in moving caches being banned.

 

If I were the approver I'd need to see all 54 possible locations plotted on a map. That would be a lot of work and I could see why he wouldn't want to deal with it. Perhaps if you did this footwork for him he might be more receptive to the idea.

 

Because the cache is limited to certain locations and there is no danger of it being placed in an illegal spot (the chief concern about moving caches), I'd be inclined to allow this.

 

But if it is approved, as an owner be aware that you might have to visit all 54 spots to track down the cache when a finder inevitibly screws it up.

 

BTW, its not so groundbreaking. I've encountered similar moving caches confined to a single park.

Edited by briansnat

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Considering that about 1 in 10 new caches in this area has bad coords, I'm guessing some newbie or someone who isn't very good at getting an accurate waypoint will eventually move the cache to a location that doesn't match your numbers. Then you wouldn't be looking in 54 locations, you would have to search the entire park.

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Considering that about 1 in 10 new caches in this area has bad coords, I'm guessing some newbie or someone who isn't very good at getting an accurate waypoint will eventually move the cache to a location that doesn't match your numbers. Then you wouldn't be looking in 54 locations, you would have to search the entire park.

I had a similar moving cache confined to a single, 2,000 acre park and yes someone screwed up the coordinates. It was a veteran geocacher too, not a newbie. The cache was found totally by luck a half mile from where it was supposed to be, so realizing that it was just a matter of time before it happened again, I archived it.

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I am developing a new cache idea that might work for you, called 3 cache monte.

 

A cache is placed at position X. In this cache are three sets of coords. The cacher picks one and goes off to try to find it. Pick the right one, and the real cache is the next stop. Pick the wrong ones and you get to go hiking for a while, finding new caches with leading coords along the way.

 

This would allow you to have a cache that would be different for each seeker and would be a variable experience but none of the elements are moving.

 

Think about this and see if GC will allow that kind of cache in your area.

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Two comments.

 

First, it's a moving cache but as has been pointed out it has a defined area, and what's more defined spots within the larger defined area. A defined area moving cache has been done at least twice I've heard of in the forums since the moving cache ban. Here is a link to one take on it.

 

Second. Because the location is not really set, people are going to search a lot of ground before finding the right spot. You really do need to factor this in so that either the terrain can take the searching (especially when they are in a spot that the cache isn't at) or make it so the cache is really, really easy to find. Day Glow orange ammo can visible when standing in the right spot so you don't have to turn over logs, rocks, etc. to find it.

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It sure sounds like a moving cache to me.

 

I would suggest that if the park is as big and friendly as you say, why not hide 2 or three new caches there? That way the locals have something to look for. :D

 

And if most of the locals have already found all the caches within a hour's drive, then archive all your caches and rehide new ones near your old locations. That way they have lots of new caches to find. B):D

 

Maybe you could even talk a few of your local caching friends into doing the same with their caches and that would give you some new ones to find too. B)

 

There are plenty of ways to have more safe caches in an area without insisting that the guidelines that apply to everyone else don't apply to you. :)

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Personally I'm not going out looking for a single cache that could be in 54 different locations. I'd rather go to 54 different locations and find 54 caches.

 

Besides, all you need to do is pull up the map that shows the general location and start wandering around. Having a GPSr would really be of very little help. You have as much chance of finding it without one.

 

El Diablo

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My concern would be the possible damage that could be done the area.

 

If the cache is constantly moving and people could be searching all over an area I can see a lot of the vegetation/undergrowth getting bushwhacked and trampled. That could lead to negative publicity.

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My concern would be the possible damage that could be done the area.

 

If the cache is constantly moving and people could be searching all over an area I can see a lot of the vegetation/undergrowth getting bushwhacked and trampled. That could lead to negative publicity.

I would think that impact would be spread out and damaged lessened. Instead of all the cachers searching one spot, there will be 54 different spots.

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My concern would be the possible damage that could be done the area.

 

If the cache is constantly moving and people could be searching all over an area I can see a lot of the vegetation/undergrowth getting bushwhacked and trampled.  That could lead to negative publicity.

I would think that impact would be spread out and damaged lessened. Instead of all the cachers searching one spot, there will be 54 different spots.

Not sure I agree.

 

There are only a certain number of variations to the recombinations of the fractions of the minutes in lat and long. Since you can't leave the park, there are fewer still.

 

If 20% of those are in roads or the bottom of rivers, or some other undesireable cache location, then you have fewer still.

 

You may wind up with a "moving cache" that moves back and forth between a handfull of locations, leaving all of them trampled.

 

A second issue is the frequency of non-online loggers. If in your area, people log caches 20% of the time on paper only and another 20% log online only after a long while, there will be a good chance that the cache will be hunted using out of date coords leading to more trampling of areas.

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You may wind up with a "moving cache" that moves back and forth between a handfull of locations, leaving all of them trampled.

 

And how would that be any different from, say a 5 stage multi cache?

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So it's a slider (a moving cache within a defined boundry) that the owner allows people to log more than one find.

 

Seems like that's already allowed.

Edited by Elf Danach

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For me, being a moving cache isn't the problem.

 

Brian, how did you come up with the 54 number? My coffee must not have kicked in because I get 36.

 

Considering you're only changing 3 digits and 3! = 6. You multiply 6 x 6 because of the two numbers that are changing and that equals 36.

 

If my math is right then there are only 36 possible general locations. This would be easy enough for someone to preprogram for their GPS. As soon as the cache is shown to have moved a person could just select the appropriate waypoint and off they go. They could even pre-scout the each area. See what I'm talking about? The game would get real old real quick.

 

Now if you mixed the numbers from North and West, then you'd get up to 720 waypoints--20 times the number of before. Of course, if you are limiting the hunt to within a park you'd cut down on the potential numbers and if you have repeating numbers that cut them down even more.

 

BTW, mixing all of the minute digits you have the potential of over 3.6 million. All of the digits, over a trillion. You could keep the same concept, but have the potential of much higher resolution of hiding spots in the park.

 

I'd say approach the park ranger, ask him of his take. If there aren't any restrictions on where you can hike or place a cache, then I'd say it would be a very viable cache. Permission is everything. Cache proximity be damned.

 

Oh, if there are restrictions, a different take is create a starting point and the cache can never be outside of a certain radius of that starting point. Just make sure the area is not within any restricted area.

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... there will be a good chance that the cache will be hunted using out of date coords leading to more trampling of areas.

 

That happened on the last moving cache that came to our area. Cachers were supposed to post a note they were going out to find it to warn others it may be gone already. Of course no note was posted and the find was not logged for several weeks. That led to several unnecessary DNF's. The cache has still not been moved (virtually) and it was taken in July! That type of behavior would put a damper on your game for sure.

 

On the other hand, we found another moving cache that was fun and still remains a favorite.

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we have a true moving cache in my area -

 

planted early last year -

 

when did the ban come in to play?

 

do grandfathered caches still have the ability to change the waypoints?

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we have a true moving cache in my area -

 

planted early last year -

 

when did the ban come in to play?

 

do grandfathered caches still have the ability to change the waypoints?

Moving caches were banned in early in 2003, I think around April. Yes, the grandfathered caches can have their cordinates changed by the owner.

 

Brian, how did you come up with the 54 number? My coffee must not have kicked in because I get 36.

The owner said 54 and I just accepted his numbers.

Edited by briansnat

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Ooooh, I hate gray areas. :)

 

I would say that although this IS a moving cache, the actual coordinates could be plotted, reviewed, and determined to be acceptable. I therefore think it could be determined to be an approvable cache.

 

That said, I would be concerned about the following:

 

1. Are all 54, 36, or however many possible combinations (it's too early to do the math on my own, so let's just call it n) publicly accessible areas, in which it is acceptable to hide a cache? If any of the coordinates are off limits, this would need to be very clearly stated.

 

2. Are all n possible combinations safe and environmentally acceptable places to hide a cache? As above, you will have people searching in ALL of these areas, and I would be concerned if one of the combos takes you to the middle of, say, a spotted owl nesting area or something. This would not be a good cache for an environmentally sensitive area, but might be easily workable in a place where I live which is all open desert.

 

If those conditions can be met, I'd be in support of your idea. Would I try to find it? In all honesty, probably not. As has been previously stated, if I'm gonna be looking in n places for a cache, I'd much prefer to find the same number of caches. :D

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If those conditions can be met, I'd be in support of your idea. Would I try to find it? In all honesty, probably not. As has been previously stated, if I'm gonna be looking in n places for a cache, I'd much prefer to find the same number of caches

 

I think that can be avoided by the last finder leaving the cordinates where he hid it in his log. Add that requirement and that would eliminate a lot of the concerns here.

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was the reason for banning moving caches a fallout of abuse of position changing after approval (no longer able to change positions very far), or were they banned on their own for some reason. If so why?

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was the reason for banning moving caches a fallout of abuse of position changing after approval (no longer able to change positions very far), or were they banned on their own for some reason.  If so why?

The chief reason was that once the cache was released GC.COM and the admins had no control as to where it moved. People could conceiveably place them in National Parks, next to RR lines and other places that are considered to be off limits.

Edited by briansnat

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I wouldn't search for it with that many combinations. Seems like if you have a park that big, there are a lot of other innovative things you could think of.

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I wouldn't search for it with that many combinations. Seems like if you have a park that big, there are a lot of other innovative things you could think of.

Cache event and radios.

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I think it would make a very cool cache EVENT.

Hmm... Maybe I should do that!

 

Actually, it doesn't sound like a bad cache. I think one thing you would have to do though, is check out every location and list on the cache (inside the lid or something) where it can't go. For instance, if you put .158 as your three numbers, but .851 is half a mile outside of the park, make sure you specify that you can't use any cords with that end number.

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was the reason for banning moving caches a fallout of abuse of position changing after approval (no longer able to change positions very far), or were they banned on their own for some reason.  If so why?

The chief reason was that once the cache was released GC.COM and the admins had no control as to where it moved. People could conceiveably place them in National Parks, next to RR lines and other places that are considered to be off limits.

 

ah ...

 

thanks -

 

OT side note - funny - when I first saw your name I thought it said BRAINsnat - maybe you like that better - maybe not -

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was the reason for banning moving caches a fallout of abuse of position changing after approval (no longer able to change positions very far), or were they banned on their own for some reason.  If so why?

The chief reason was that once the cache was released GC.COM and the admins had no control as to where it moved. People could conceiveably place them in National Parks, next to RR lines and other places that are considered to be off limits.

 

ah ...

 

thanks -

 

OT side note - funny - when I first saw your name I thought it said BRAINsnat - maybe you like that better - maybe not -

:P

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The difference between this and the Purgatory example is that on the Pugatory one the person who rehides the cache goes back to the first stage and records the new coordinates for the next searcher. The next searcher then only has to find the initial micro to get the correct coordinates.

 

As others have stated, I would be concerned about the impact on the terrain. It has been compared to a multi-cache, but with a multi-cache you have a good chance of finding the cache at the location. With the game as the original poster stated, you don't know if it's going to be there or somewhere else. The longer searchers spend searching for a cache, the more the area gets torn up.

 

Personally, I like the idea of archiving and rehiding the caches that are in the area already.

 

 

Edited because I rechecked my math and it is 36 possibilties.

Edited by RichardMoore

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Wow! Thanks to everyone for your input, suggestions, logic, and math (it IS 36 possible combinations; that will teach me to do math math on my fingers)!

 

It has been archived with no plans to rebirth it, except for the idea of doing it as a one-time event cache, with the person finding the camouflaged container getting to keep it! I love that idea! :P

 

Geocachers are the best!! :P

Edited by Walden Pond

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