Ftf Clarification

September 10, 2004

Alright, here's some clarification. On August 7, 2002, this cache was placed here. For the last two years, according to the logs, only one group has even attempted it. They got turned away due to bad weather.

Fast forward to September 4 of this year. I took a group of friends up to this river for a canoe trip. Somehow (I may have had something to do with this) our route went RIGHT by it! Of course, we found it, being the first geocachers to locate it!

As luck would have it (and this is insanely bad luck too!) the cache was actually found the day before by a group of muggles!

So, can I consider this a FTF? Or do a group of muggles get this honour?

Two interesting notes about these muggles:

i) There was no "Geocache Intro" page included in the cache, and from reading their log, they honestly thought that somebody had stashed some gear to pick it up later. My group found this funny considering the relative uselessness of the trinkets.

ii) Somebody in my group actually knew these people! Their granddaughter went to a camp that she worked at! Which is especially weird because this cache was about 7 hours drive, plus a boat trip away from their home!

I'm actually not too concerned about it, just wondering what the general concensus was regarding this issue.

LostDog

September 10, 2004

I would have been considered a "muggler" just six short days ago but now consider myself a GeoCacher (see my profile for details). However, I do consider my find to be MY first, not an FTF or a find as a GeoCacher, but a find none the less. I guess you have to see if these other people join the group and claim the find before you consider it your FTF. :huh:

2.6k · September 10, 2004

So, can I consider this a FTF? Or do a group of muggles get this honour?

Geocaching.com doesn't support the FTF-records in any way. If you find the cache first, and an hour later the second finder comes, but makes the online log before you, their log appears to be the first. Yet you and the second finder both know that you were the first to find. (And, of course, this can be mentioned in the logs too).

Another case I've seen is when someone hides his cache with a friend who also is a geocacher (and has an account here). Many times the friend logs the cache as found, because in many ways he's been helping to place the cache. I know this is something everyone doesn't accept, but let's just suppose this has already happened. You come to the cache and find it, being the first one who really finds it the first time. Again, both you and the cache hider and his friend know who's the real first finder.

As for muggles accidentally finding the cache before the first geocacher: Surely the muggles found it first, but this time you were the first who knew about the cache and tried to find it - and found it. You know that so you can by all means consider yourself another FTF. I probably would think I wasn't the FTF (because, geomuggles or not, they really were first to find it, but that's just my point of view, and it's not better than yours in any way).

My point is, since the FTF feature is not supported in gc.com, and no one here is really giving any 'honor' out of it, everyone can keep their FTF stats as they please. You know how you found the caches, so just make a decision whether you count is as a FTF or not.

Edited September 10, 2004 by Divine

38.2k · September 10, 2004

You're the second to find.

Edited September 10, 2004 by briansnat

1.8k · September 10, 2004

What you want to hear is what Divine said. Sorry, but the signature in the log book is the one that counts. What a shame...well, sort of. Not that bad, really, is it. Great adventure! You did well. :huh: :huh:

7.9k · September 10, 2004

What Divine said...

However, you DO get the FIF ( First Intentional Find ) gold star! :huh:

September 10, 2004

I figured as much.

Ah well, it was still an incredible trip!

LostDog

2.3k · September 10, 2004

You're the first to find.

If a fan runs out of the stands onto the field, intercepts a pass and runs it into the endzone is it a touchdown? No.

Edited September 10, 2004 by SixDogTeam

September 10, 2004

You're the first to find.

If a fan runs out of the stands onto the field, intercepts a pass and runs it into the endzone is it a touchdown? No.

Now that was a good answer.

7

3.8k · September 10, 2004

The cache was not found; it was muggled.

Until the muggles convert to cachers, you are the FTF IMHO. :huh: :huh:

September 10, 2004

You're the first to find.

If a fan runs out of the stands onto the field, intercepts a pass and runs it into the endzone is it a touchdown? No.

Now that was a good answer.

Well, maybe not quite. Something you haven't considered: football fans in the stadium are not invited to “play along.” Accidental cache finders are, especially if the standard stash note is in the container!

Cheers ...

September 10, 2004

Well, maybe not quite. Something you haven't considered: football fans in the stadium are not invited to “play along.” Accidental cache finders are, especially if the standard stash note is in the container!

Cheers ...

Hmmm... good point.

Okay, how about this: One of the defensive players, not currently on the field or involved in the game, but certainly someone who is "invited to play along" at some point and time, goes insane, runs out onto the field, catches the ball and runs it in for a touchdown.

Is it a touchdown?

He was "invited to play along," but wasn't officially "playing along" at the time he ran the ball into the end zone.

No touchdown for him.

3.8k · September 10, 2004

Also, you could argue that the cache owner should be the one to determine FTF since Groundspeak has no rules that apply.

LostDogCanada, why don't you email them? It would be interesting to hear their opinion. :huh: :huh:

2.4k · September 10, 2004

Well, maybe not quite. Something you haven't considered: football fans in the stadium are not invited to “play along.” Accidental cache finders are, especially if the standard stash note is in the container!

Cheers ...

Hmmm... good point.

Okay, how about this: One of the defensive players, not currently on the field or involved in the game, but certainly someone who is "invited to play along" at some point and time, goes insane, runs out onto the field, catches the ball and runs it in for a touchdown.

Is it a touchdown?

He was "invited to play along," but wasn't officially "playing along" at the time he ran the ball into the end zone.

No touchdown for him.

Well, no. He wasn't invited to play along, and the team would get a penalty for too many players on the field. So it's still not a touchdown, and the original poster is still SECOND to find.

September 10, 2004

LostDogCanada, why don't you email them? It would be interesting to hear their opinion.

Good idea... it'd be interesting to see what they say.

For all of you who are wondering, I decided not to count it as a FTF. It just didn't feel right. The muggles found it, fair and square, even if they had no idea what they were looking at.

LostDog

3.9k · September 10, 2004

If it makes you feel better, call it a FTF. But you'll always know you were actually second.

24.7k · September 10, 2004

You're the second to find.

I agree.

Those muggles may become geocachers and then there would be no debate as this is their first cache. And since they can do that at any time between now and when they kick off this planet any claim to FTF is only on borrowed time.

Edited September 10, 2004 by Renegade Knight

September 11, 2004

Well, I'm not able to get in contact with the owners of the cache. According to their statistics, their only hide was this cache, on August 7. 2002. And their only find was August 31, 2002... I tried to e-mail them, but it was returned to me.

I have a feeling that they may have another account though, since I imagine that it's extremely rare to hide a cache before you find one... though I may be mistaken.

Oh well.

2.3k · September 11, 2004

Well, I'm not able to get in contact with the owners of the cache. According to their statistics, their only hide was this cache, on August 7. 2002. And their only find was August 31, 2002... I tried to e-mail them, but it was returned to me.

I have a feeling that they may have another account though, since I imagine that it's extremely rare to hide a cache before you find one... though I may be mistaken.

Oh well.

Not as rare as you might think.

September 11, 2004

If that cache wasnt 2000 miles away from me I would have been the FTF. If only I could go after it.

Edited September 11, 2004 by Beta Test

38.2k · September 11, 2004

If it makes you feel better, call it a FTF. But you'll always know you were actually second.

Bingo!

2.3k · September 12, 2004

No matter how many inane football metaphors you guys cook up, the FACTS are this: GC is a game of hide and seek. The muggles didn't seek, they serendipidied. The OP is the FIRST TO FIND, period. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

1.8k · September 12, 2004

If a fan runs out of the stands onto the field, intercepts a pass and runs it into the endzone is it a touchdown? No

Well, if it was Notre Dame they'd probably cound it, AND they jump up five places in the polls. :laughing:

2.4k · September 12, 2004

No matter how many inane football metaphors you guys cook up, the FACTS are this: GC is a game of hide and seek. The muggles didn't seek, they serendipidied. The OP is the FIRST TO FIND, period. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Maybe they didn't specifically seek, but they DID FIND therefore the original poster is (and always will know he was) SECOND to find, not first.

September 12, 2004

I think that by their choice to log their find in the log book, the muggles are FTF. In logging, they made a choice to play the game, and by logging it demonstrates they even found it fun and/or interesting....a new geocacher may have been born with that log! Had the cache been muggled without evidence of a log entry, or vandalized, I would not count it. But, they found it, and chose to participate fair and square.

I would be bummed though to if I were you! Still, it sounds like a great find either way and you sound like a good sport!

Edited September 12, 2004 by team walkingsticks

3.9k · September 12, 2004

It really dosen't matter who was the FTF. What really matters is the sense of accompishment the individuals felt. You have one group that accidently stumbled across something they weren't looking for, and had no idea what they found. Then you have a group that set out to accompish a goal and succeded. I would rather be in the latter group.

El Diablo

2.1k · September 12, 2004

No matter how many inane football metaphors you guys cook up, the FACTS are this: GC is a game of hide and seek. The muggles didn't seek, they serendipidied. The OP is the FIRST TO FIND, period. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I'm not buying this at all! :laughing:

What is the purpose for even suggesting that the second person to find the cache is the FTF? :lol:

This is about the same thing as a cacher claiming a find for a cache where they did not find the container but they felt they should be awarded a find because they looked around for awhile at the coordinate location.

The muggles FOUND the container. Whether by accident or not they actually found it and wrote in the logbook.

Who amoung us would feel they could claim FTF when their name is second in the cache logbook?

2.3k · September 12, 2004

Who amoung us would feel they could claim FTF when their name is second in the cache logbook?

WE would. The muggles AREN'T playing the game, so how on earth could they "score"? I don't know why this is so difficult for some of you out there. I will tell you one thing. The FTF on MY caches go to the first GEOCACHER to find it, using my cache page coordinates and instructions and a GPSr, compass, maps, what-have-you. Not muggles, not pirates, not dove hunters, not the Notre Dame bench, not interlopers and game poachers, not forest sprites, grifters and gamblers, not stray raccoons, not people dressed in Chicken Suits eating donuts, not escaped convicts, not lying politicians, but only GEOCACHERS!!! Well, maybe people dressed in Chicken suits, but not gorilla suits! No offense.

2.3k · September 12, 2004

Next time, tear out the page with the Muggles entry. :laughing:

3.8k · September 13, 2004

Next time, tear out the page with the Muggles entry.

Now there's the answer I expected at about the 3rd reply!! :laughing:

2.1k · September 13, 2004

...I don't know why this is so difficult for some of you out there...

I guess the concept that second can sometimes actually mean first is just too much for me to handle. I might have said that perhaps I should consider going back to school but I don't think I would find any help there with this problem.

If my name was second in the logbook what would convince me that I could claim first? Why would anyone want to? That is the part I can't figure out.

In Marin/Sonoma counties in California there is a common log entry for the second person to find the cache. They often write "FNPTF - first non-plumber to find" because for a while it was impossible to beat a local cacher (who's initials are DF). Perhaps in the situation of this topic a more appropriate log would be "FGTF - frist geocacher to find".

But "FTF"? Who you trying to kid?

September 13, 2004

Next time, tear out the page with the Muggles entry.

Unfortunately, they signed on the same page as the hider... so we couldn't go that route. :rolleyes: :laughing:

LostDog

Ftf Clarification

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