How To Stake A Claim

[+Thot]

I just submitted a new cache listing to “stake-out” my claim to a location. I’ve been studying this location for about a month and somebody just placed a micro in the same park. I placed the container about a week ago, and I don’t want somebody else to take this location before I’m ready to go public.

 

So far there are no contents other than a note explaining it’s a cache test, what geocaching is and how to contact me. I want to test this location for a while before I feel comfortable it’s going to work. I want to see the effects of a hard rain and collect coordinates on a better couple of days.

 

I can’t check the block that says the cache is “currently active” because it’s not yet. When I submit the listing there’s a note saying “Approvers will not see this listing unless box is checked” Also, the note to approvers explaining what I'm doing comes up blank every time I readd it.

 

How do I stake my claim to this location I’ve spent considerable time and effort on?

Edited September 7, 2004 by Thot

[+SixDogTeam]

One thing to do, I guess, is email your approver and say what you've said in this post, and see what he says. And/or you could submit the cache report, thereby getting it in the approval queque, then maybe disable it, or post a note or state in the body of the cache page that it's not ready to go yet. Or you just could submit it for approval, and note what your concerns are, and let geocachers decide weather they want to hunt it or not, and report back to you on its condition and the accuracy of the coordinates...BTW --That's a nice big avatar you got there!!

[+BlueDeuce]

Unfortunately an un-cached area is fair game. Trying to holding an area can lead to disappointment.

 

You can talk to your approver but in terms of fairness they may only give you a few days.

 

Know your locals, telling people you've selected an area may help delay another placement.

 

Talk to the person who place the cache. They may be willing to move, but who knows they may have been planning one for two months.

[+Kai Team]

I just submitted a new cache listing to “stake-out” my claim to a location.  I’ve been studying this location for about a month and somebody just placed a micro in the same park.  I placed the container about a week ago, and I don’t want somebody else to take this location before I’m ready to go public. 

I have a hard time with the idea of staking a claim on a location, because it makes the location unavailable to others without actually making a cache available to the geocaching community. If this became a widespread practice, we could see hundreds of locations "staked out" that never end up with caches - there are enough problems with geotrash (abandoned caches) without adding virtual geotrash (abandoned locations that were staked out)!

 

So far there are no contents other than a note explaining it’s a cache test, what geocaching is and how to contact me.  I want to test this location for a while before I feel comfortable it’s going to work.  I want to see the effects of a hard rain and collect coordinates on a better couple of days.

I guess I don't understand the need to "test" the location. If it gets wet in a hard rain, replace it with a better container (or relocate it slightly and change the coordinates). If you want to collect better coordinates over a couple of days, post the cache with the initial coordinates and then edit the cache page to improve the accuracy of the posted coordinates. That's precisely why geocaching.com allows owners to edit their cache pages (within limits).

 

In the meantime, others can enjoy your cache and you're location is secure!

[Tahosa and Sons]

Do you have the authorization of the property owner to stake a claim??

 

If its in a public area and I obtain the permission of the agency that regulates the area do I archive my new cache because you've laid claim to that spot. I don't think so.

[+Thot]

Perhaps I should clarify something. I'm not trying to have the micro the other person placed removed. It's far enough away to not violate the .1 mile rule. This park had had no cache previously, his micro made me realize if he'd put it nearer the place I'd found it would have ruled out me placing a regular cache.

 

I'm not trying to hold this area indefinitely. I’ve gone on probably 10 scouting expeditions trying to find a reasonable location for my first cache. On the other hand if people have to throw up “something” in order to avoid losing a location, it seems like it encourages the kind of hastily done, poorly worked out "lame" caches I see criticized here regularly.

 

PS Someone said do it now and change it later. Where is it explained what I can change later?

Edited September 8, 2004 by Thot

[+briansnat]

PS Someone said do it now and change it later. Where is it explained what I can change later?

 

I think they meant that you should submit the cache, have it approved, then imediately disable it. Then you can enable it as soon as you're ready go.

[+Thot]

I think they meant that you should submit the cache, have it approved, then imediately disable it.  Then you can enable it as soon as you're ready go.

Actually I was responding to the comment recommending I "post the cache with the initial coordinates and then edit the cache page to improve the accuracy of the posted coordinates. That's precisely why geocaching.com allows owners to edit their cache pages (within limits)."

 

There is another location in the same park I intend to use if this one washes away in a heavy rain. His recommendation may work if I can change the coordinates 300-400 feet.

[+BlueDeuce]

Perhaps I should clarify something. I'm not trying to have the micro the other person placed removed.

Sorry, my mis-spelling and vague advice. I meant talk to the person who placeS the cache. (should someone take it over)

 

briansnat's advice about placing a cache is a good one. You could even leave it there for a while and then replace it with another, maybe better cache later. Kind of like reviving an area. (cough, cough)

[+Thot]

Incidentally, I was serious when asking where it’s explained what can be changed after the cache is approved.

Edited September 8, 2004 by Thot

[+Kai Team]

PS Someone said do it now and change it later. Where is it explained what I can change later?

When you own a cache, two new options appear in the upper right hand corner of the cache page when you visit the page while logged in:

"Edit this Cache" and

"Archive this Cache".

 

The edit option gives the owner the ability to edit the cache page, within limits. You can edit the description and hints any way you want. You cannot edit the cache type (e.g. from physical to virtual) nor can you move it more than a certain distance (0.1 miles - about 500 feet, I think) without resubmitting it for approval. The idea is that you can edit/update your cache page as long as you don't change the essential character of the cache.

 

The archive option allows the owner to temporarily take the cache off line (e.g. if you need to perform maintenance) or to permanently take it off line (if you've decided it was a bad location or if you don't want to maintain it anymore).

 

Folks who are going to place lame caches are going to place lame caches regardless of whether they can stake out a locaiton in advance, and vice versa. My point was that none of us are perfect, and even a well planned cache can go awry. Personally, I had one cache that went missing 5 times in a little over a year. After replacing it four times, I finally decided to move it to a more secure (less traffic) location. I'm still waiting to see if that solves the problem (the first to find in the new location left it out in the open and the cache got soaked)!

[+Thot]

I meant talk to the person who placeS the cache. (should someone take it over)

I see now.

 

In reply to another of your comments:

 

I have no idea who approves caches in my area, and no idea how to contact them. I had seen statements by an approver in this forum urging people to let him know if they didn't want a cache approved immediately so he could hold it. This comment made me believe you could delay approval for a short time. On the other hand the new cache form says the approver doesn't even see the cache until it's placed and ready to be approved. This conflict is what prompted my question.

[+Kai Team]

No one knows for sure who the approvers are (the subject of many posts on this forum - let's not go there!).

 

The best way to try to contact the approver for your area is to look in the lower left corner of the page for a recently placed cache in your area and click on the link after "Approved by". This isn't foolproof, because reviewers change, sometimes for a two week vacation, sometimes because an approver is very busy and another approver helps out, and sometimes because they move on permanently.

[+Thot]

The edit option gives the owner the ability to edit the cache page, within limits.  You can edit the description and hints any way you want.  You cannot edit the cache type (e.g. from physical to virtual) nor can you move it more than a certain distance (0.1 miles - about 500 feet, I think) without resubmitting it for approval.  The idea is that you can edit/update your cache page as long as you don't change the essential character of the cache.

If I understand what you are saying. You must keep the same defined cache type(regular, micro, virtual, etc.), and stay within .1 mile. Other than that you can change anything you want on the page.

 

This includes changing the entire description, the clue, the contents, changing to a HTML page from a text only page -- changing any and everything except those two things. Have I got this correct?

Edited September 8, 2004 by Thot

[+Thot]

The best way to try to contact the approver for your area is to look in the lower left corner of the page for a recently placed cache in your area and click on the link after "Approved by". 

Excellent tip. I'd never noticed that. Thanks.

 

Edit:

 

I hate to be dense, but where is that Approved by link again?

 

In the lower left of a cache page I find this:

 

There are more logs. View them all on one page

 

Current time: 9/8/2004 1:16:55 AM

Last Updated: 8/29/2004 11:38:19 PM

Rendered: From Memory

Coordinates are in the WGS84 datum

Edited September 8, 2004 by Thot

[+Kai Team]

I'm not sure of the exact limits on the owner's ability to change a cache - my comments are based on my experience. I've edited coordinates (to improve accuracy), short and long descriptions, and difficulty level without needing further approval. Since the HTML is included in the long description, you should be able to change that as well.

 

However, when I moved the cache I mentioned above 800 feet, the site required me to resubmit for approval (which is why I think the limit for moving a cache is 0.1 miles). In that case I wrote a note to the reviewer about the reasons for the move when I resubmitted the cache for approval, and he/she approved it without any problems.

 

The general rule of thumb is you have quite a bit of flexibility as long as you don't alter the basic characteristics of the cache - beyond that, I can't offer any guarantees.

 

Edit: added more detail

Edited September 8, 2004 by Kai Team

[+Thot]

Kai Team

 

Did you see my edit to my previous post?

[MedTexPlacer]

I think they meant that you should submit the cache, have it approved, then imediately disable it.  Then you can enable it as soon as you're ready go.

Actually I was responding to the comment recommending I "post the cache with the initial coordinates and then edit the cache page to improve the accuracy of the posted coordinates. That's precisely why geocaching.com allows owners to edit their cache pages (within limits)."

 

There is another location in the same park I intend to use if this one washes away in a heavy rain. His recommendation may work if I can change the coordinates 300-400 feet.

If you are worried about it washing away in the rain, why not tether the cache to a tree?

[+Kai Team]

I hate to be dense, but where is that Approved by link again?

Oops - it looks like the approver may only appear if you own the cache, which is a cache 22 if this is your first cache! Here's what's in the lower left corner of one of the pages for a cache I own, just below "View them all on one page":

 

Current time: 9/8/2004 1:03:20 AM

Last Updated: 4/14/2004 9:53:08 PM

Last Found: 9/4/2004 7:00:00 AM

Approved By: NJ Admin

Rendered: From Database

Coordinates are in the WGS84 datum

 

My best advice would be to email someone with a recently placed cache in your area and ask them to click on the approver link in the lower left corner of one of their owned cache pages and then send you the URL that pops up (which is the approver's profile, and contains a link to email him or her).

[+Renegade Knight]

Pop a note to CO Admin.

 

If you remember Upinachit, one of his issues was that a cache he had placed was being blocked by a cache that was 'in the works'. Your case sounds similar.

 

And yes I can understand wanting to reserve a spot. Night Stalker worked with the NPS to obtain permission for a virtual cache. They liked the idea and even game input on what should be included in the virtual. Back then the concept of permission for a virtual was laughed at. Now it's a lot more credible. However in the time it took him to obtain permision, another virtual was placed and approved. Then Night Stalker (who didn't know of the other cache) finally got permission and got his cache approved.

 

You would think the caches could co-exist having both been approved and therefore grandfathered. But no. The other cache owner demanded that Night Stalker's cache be archived. This site complied. Now the cache with no permission remains and the one with permission is archived.

 

So yes I understand your desire. What a reasonable amount of time is though is hard to say. It can take months and months to obtain permission. Government wheels can grind very slowly. You didn't say what you were looking at exactly that you needed to tweak.

[+Thot]

If you are worried about it washing away in the rain, why not tether the cache to a tree?

I've considered that. There's no way to do it without creating a high risk muggles will see the tether and wondering why it's there.

 

There are other potential problems with this location that only leaving the container in place for a couple of weeks will answer.

 

The location I'm focusing on is a better location, but if things don't work out there's a less desirable location not real far away.

[+SixDogTeam]

Thot, we understand your desire to make a really great cache, but you're getting to the point where you're overthinking the whole thing. Just place and report the cache, using your best judgement in terms of durability, get the best coordinates you can and go for it! Sounds like cache maintenance is not going to be a hardship for you in this case. The experience in reporting the cache and the physical act of hiding it will answer many of your questions--trust us on this. BTW, one of the few things things you cannot edit on your cache page( besides moving the coordinates too far) , I think, is the TYPE of cache (regular, virtual, puzzle etc.) Once you've got your cache approved, you can perhaps build up a rapport with your approver, they are generally very helpful.You can always disable your cache at any time, even right after approval, if you think there is a problem with it. Now, go DO it!!!

[+CompuCash]

Thot, we understand your desire to make a really great cache, but you're getting to the point where you're overthinking the whole thing. Just place and report the cache, using your best judgement in terms of durability, get the best coordinates you can and go for it! Sounds like cache maintenance is not going to be a hardship for you in this case. The experience in reporting the cache and the physical act of hiding it will answer many of your questions--trust us on this. BTW, one of the few things things you cannot edit on your cache page( besides moving the coordinates too far) , I think, is the TYPE of cache (regular, virtual, puzzle etc.) Once you've got your cache approved, you can perhaps build up a rapport with your approver, they are generally very helpful.You can always disable your cache at any time, even right after approval, if you think there is a problem with it. Now, go DO it!!!

Thot -

 

why not place a smaller cache close by to 'hold' the site. Let the other cache test as needed (yes I do see the possibility that the testing cache could be found by accident - you'll have to deal with that), and let people find the smaller cache.

 

The other alternative, I believe was mentioned and why I have not rung in here previously. Make the cache active, and when it is approved, do a temoraty inactive, while your cache is testing.

 

I do have to agree with the previous writer tho - I think yer working to hard. Place the cache and deal with whatever happend if and when it does happen. The main idea being to get the cache out there - right? If you are concernced about it being washed away (wish I had a dollar for every cache hide I have walked away from because it was a gully and I KNEW it would be washed away), then get some monofilament fish line and tie the sucker down.

[+Mopar]

PS  Someone said do it now and change it later.  Where is it explained what I can change later?

When you own a cache, two new options appear in the upper right hand corner of the cache page when you visit the page while logged in:

"Edit this Cache" and

"Archive this Cache".

 

<snip>

The archive option allows the owner to temporarily take the cache off line (e.g. if you need to perform maintenance) or to permanently take it off line (if you've decided it was a bad location or if you don't want to maintain it anymore).

This is bad information, and totally WRONG.

 

The "Archive This Cache" is essentially ending the life of the cache. You can NOT unarchive it yourself, nor can you edit or change any part of the cache after it's been archived. It's done. D-E-A-D dead. It's not reserving the space, someone else can put a cache in the same place as an archived cache.

 

What I guess you meant is the "Temporarily Disable This Cache" option to the left, under the cache name. THAT option works like you describe.

Of course, you have no idea when you cache will be approved and listed. If you aren't sitting at the computer waiting for the next 2-3 days to catch it and disable the cache that instant, you will probably be sending all your local FTF crazies out looking for a cache that isn't there. Also, if you keep it disabled for more then a few weeks, you risk pissing off your locals, as well as having it archived by the admins, since it's only supposed to be used for a few weeks.

Edited September 8, 2004 by Mopar

[Keystone]

I was just about to post to correct the misinformation, but Mopar already caught that. He's correct. Volunteers wind up unarchiving caches every week that should have been temporarily disabled.

 

My other purpose for posting was to encourage Thot to get in touch with 9Key, one of the volunteer cache reviewers for Texas. See if you can work something out with him regarding a "hold" on this location temporarily. Note that, if you make up a cache page but un-check the "This cache is active" box, the cache will still show up in a proximity search if the reviewer is looking at another new cache submission in the same area.

[+Thot]

you have no idea when you cache will be approved and listed. If you aren't sitting at the computer waiting for the next 2-3 days to catch it and disable the cache that instant, you will probably be sending all your local FTF crazies out looking for a cache that isn't there.

That was exactly my thinking too. I'm sure the FTF hounds will see the cache become active/approved before I do and make wasted trips. A sure way to win friends and influence people.

Edited September 8, 2004 by Thot

[+Thot]

My other purpose for posting was to encourage Thot to get in touch with 9Key, one of the volunteer cache reviewers for Texas.  See if you can work something out with him regarding a "hold" on this location temporarily. 

Thanks, I had no idea who approved caches in my area.

 

Note that, if you make up a cache page but un-check the "This cache is active" box, the cache will still show up in a proximity search if the reviewer is looking at another new cache submission in the same area.

That was all I wanted. The note makes it seem like if the box is unchecked the submission it completely invisible to reviewers. Thanks again.

[Keystone]

Just to clarify... an unapproved cache that's inactive/temporarily disabled is "sort of invisible" in that it does not show up in the review queue. We regard anything in the review queue as ready to be listed, if it meets all the listing requirements. So unchecking the box and keeping it out of the queue is how you keep your cache page in "draft" form.

 

But the reviewers can still see your cache, with a blue line through it like any other disabled cache, if we run a proximity search, or look at a list of your hides, or look at a list of all caches in your state, etc.

[tlg]

My other purpose for posting was to encourage Thot to get in touch with 9Key, one of the volunteer cache reviewers for Texas.  See if you can work something out with him regarding a "hold" on this location temporarily.  Note that, if you make up a cache page but un-check the "This cache is active" box, the cache will still show up in a proximity search if the reviewer is looking at another new cache submission in the same area.

Just out of curiosity, if someone were to place an 'active' cache near to an 'inactive' cache would the active cache get priority (assuming the inactive cache was done first)? Or would the reviewer cite proximity issues and not allow the newer cache?

[Keystone]

My other purpose for posting was to encourage Thot to get in touch with 9Key, one of the volunteer cache reviewers for Texas.  See if you can work something out with him regarding a "hold" on this location temporarily.  Note that, if you make up a cache page but un-check the "This cache is active" box, the cache will still show up in a proximity search if the reviewer is looking at another new cache submission in the same area.

Just out of curiosity, if someone were to place an 'active' cache near to an 'inactive' cache would the active cache get priority (assuming the inactive cache was done first)? Or would the reviewer cite proximity issues and not allow the newer cache?

tlg, your question could be read two ways so I will give two answers.

 

1. On topic to this thread, if Thot were to create a cache page but mark it as inactive for a *limited* period of time while he got everything ready, AND he worked out an understanding with 9Key about his plans for the cache, I am quite certain that 9Key would honor that understanding. If another geocacher were to come along and place a cache 50 feet away from Thot's spot, the reviewer would write back and say "sorry, you had no way of knowing this, but I'm working with another geocacher who is putting together a cache very near this location." I haven't had this situation come up specifically, but as analogous precedent there's been several times when two geocachers have hidden caches within 50 feet of each other on the same weekend. In these cases, the earlier GC number wins. But if Thot did *NOT* communicate with his reviewer, and merely reserved the spot without a clear plan for activating the cache, I'm not sure that this ought to trump a cache that is ready to be activated today. I have never had that situation arise either.

 

2. If a cache is inactive AFTER it was listed (because of a maintenance problem, missing cache, etc.) and someone places a cache less than 528 feet (161 meters) away from the existing cache, the existing cache ought to have priority UNLESS it had been temporarily disabled for too long. The second geocacher would be able to see the inactive cache in a proximity search for nearest caches to his chosen spot, and he should have chosen a different spot. But suppose the cache has been inactive for six months, with an old note from the owner saying he wasn't sure whether or not he'd replace the missing container. In that instance I would put the new cache "on hold", and write to the owner of the inactive cache asking for an update on the status. If I didn't hear back within a reasonable period of time -- a week or so, in case the owner was on vacation -- then I could see fit to archive the inactive cache in favor of the new cache submission. On the other hand, if the existing cache had only been inactive for three or four weeks, I would give less weight to the new submission because the owner of the existing cache deserves a fair opportunity to fix whatever problem caused it to be disabled. The answer does depend on the particular circumstances for the disabled cache. You wouldn't want people "sniping" the location of a cache that had been disabled for the winter due to snow and ice conditions, for example.

[tlg]

Just out of curiosity, if someone were to place an 'active' cache near to an 'inactive' cache would the active cache get priority (assuming the inactive cache was done first)? Or would the reviewer cite proximity issues and not allow the newer cache?

tlg, your question could be read two ways so I will give two answers.

Thanks for the reply Keystone; I was referring to unapproved caches when I used the word 'active' so answer #1 was what I was looking for. I was also wondering what the protocol would be if there was no dialogue between a hider who checks the 'cache is not yet active' and a reviewer. If someone came along a day or so later and placed a cache <161m away and made theirs active who would get first crack at the spot?

 

If you know what I mean?

[Keystone]

Like I said, that's a hypothetical that I haven't had to deal with, but I did mention the protocol for two *active* caches that had been, in fact, placed at locations close to each other. Lowest GC number wins. If one of them was inactive, I am guessing that I'd write to the owner of that cache and ask "why" and, specifically, whether the cache was in place. The answer I receive would then guide my decision. If, for example, the first hider's cache was in place, and the page was inactive because the owner was merely tinkering with html and images on the cache page, I'd say he ought to be the one to have the cache listed. If, on the other hand, the first hider had merely staked out a general area for a future cache placement, had not hidden a container, and had not discussed this with the reviewer in advance, then I'd likely award the cache to the second owner. I don't want to see people staking out areas just to beat or interfere with the plans of other geocachers, nor do I want to see people placing caches just to trip up another geocacher's good faith plans for a cache they are actively working on.

 

I hope never to see this hypothetical situation in my review queue. If it arose, I would likely refer any close cases for discussion in our reviewers' forum.

[+Kai Team]

 

The archive option allows the owner to temporarily take the cache off line (e.g. if you need to perform maintenance) or to permanently take it off line (if you've decided it was a bad location or if you don't want to maintain it anymore).

This is bad information, and totally WRONG.

 

The "Archive This Cache" is essentially ending the life of the cache. You can NOT unarchive it yourself, nor can you edit or change any part of the cache after it's been archived. It's done. D-E-A-D dead. It's not reserving the space, someone else can put a cache in the same place as an archived cache.

 

What I guess you meant is the "Temporarily Disable This Cache" option to the left, under the cache name. THAT option works like you describe.

Thanks for correcting my rather serious misstatement - I did mean to say use "Temporarily Disable This Cache" to temporarily take the cache off line and "Archive this Cache" to permanently take the cache off line. My sincere apologies for spreading misinformation.

[+welch]

I just submitted a new cache listing to “stake-out” my claim to a location. I’ve been studying this location for about a month and somebody just placed a micro in the same park. I placed the container about a week ago, and I don’t want somebody else to take this location before I’m ready to go public.

 

So far there are no contents other than a note explaining it’s a cache test, what geocaching is and how to contact me. I want to test this location for a while before I feel comfortable it’s going to work. I want to see the effects of a hard rain and collect coordinates on a better couple of days.

 

I can’t check the block that says the cache is “currently active” because it’s not yet. When I submit the listing there’s a note saying “Approvers will not see this listing unless box is checked” Also, the note to approvers explaining what I'm doing comes up blank every time I readd it.

 

How do I stake my claim to this location I’ve spent considerable time and effort on?

you don't you can't.

If you haven't checked the 'is active' box, its not in the approval cache, and I doubt the approvers will see it otherwise (or if they can see ones like that anyways).

[+tirediron]

Stake a claim? Place a cache. That's all, nothing complicated.

[+SixDogTeam]

In the time it's taken to hash this all out, Patrick and I could have logged an FTF on this sucker, and be done with it!!!!!

[+Prime Suspect]

Stake a claim? Place a cache. That's all, nothing complicated.

Amen to that. There's no need of making a big production out it of. Either put out a cache, or don't. This "staking a claim" stuff is for the birds. If someone else puts out a cache nearby, and Thot's still twiddling his thumbs, I'd hope the reviewer would allow the person who's actually placed a cache for people to find to get the preference.

[+Night Stalker]

Don't know about every case, but I had a cache that I had disabled because it had been plundered. While pondering what to do another cacher placed a cache within the .1 mile area. The approver immediately notified me in case I wanted to re-enable my cache in the near future. In this case the new cacher had already approached me and gotten permission to place the cache.