jackbear Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 It seems to be one of the cardinal rules of geocaching that we should be aware of where we place caches, and what environmental impact it will have. Lots of governments seem eager to begin permit systems. What are people doing out there to protect the environmental impact both around their own caches, and caches they visit? Grrrrrrrrr... jackbear Quote Link to comment
+nincehelser Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 ...I think it's an excuse the park people are using. In the Austin area, I've noticed little evidence of cachers, and what I have noticed, you pretty much have to be looking for it. Maybe my eyes are just bad. George Quote Link to comment
Team Bohica Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 quote:Originally posted by nincehelser:In the Austin area, I've noticed little evidence of cachers, and what I have noticed, you pretty much have to be looking for it. Actually it is kind of hard to tell in the Austin area. I've been caching in Oregon and was suprised at how easy it was to find caches there. There were trails right to 'em. I think in the CenTex area it is also a function of the ground being mostly limestone so trails don't form as easily. Kinda hard to make a trail when you are climbing over solid rock. :-) I haven't been caching in Utah but I'm sure it's the same when caching in the southern part where I have hiked. A whole lot of sandstone makes it hard for trails to form in places. Then all I had was a topo and a compass, plus cairns, to find my way across seas of sandstone. The Bohican -- Not Necessarily Interesting News Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 quote:In the Austin area, I've noticed little evidence of cachers, and what I have noticed, you pretty much have to be looking for it. I'm commenting from the Massachusetts area. I notice quite a bit of evidence of cachers in this area when I'm out hunting. I'd say about 30 - 40% of the time I locate a cache due to the clear evidence of a new branch of a trail leading toward where the cache is. This phenominom is particularly prevailent when the cache is placed in an overgrown, or heavily wooded area. It seems to only take a few finds before a new trail is beaten. So, my point is, I can see how someone who is not a fan of Geocaching may be peeved by these mini-trails popping up throughout their preserve. As one who's contributing to the problem, if it can even yet be labeled a "problem," I'm not that concerned. Yet. Pan Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am. Quote Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 All the more reason for cachers to not use an obvious social trail. If we give each trail time to heal, then there wouldn't be much to worry about. CR Quote Link to comment
+Hiemdahl Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Well, I do not know about Austin, but I have logged some caches where there was a definite trail directly to the cache. Mostly a function of the cache age and activity. I remember one on a steep hillside where the foot traffic had completely killed off the ground cover and it was beginning to erode. Personally, I think this should fall under the owner's cache matenance responsibilities. If the area starts getting torn up, it is not difficult to move it slightly and edit the cache. We (geocaching) have enough critics as it is, why give them (such as the National Park Service) more ammunition. Kudos to ALL of the Geocachers that are informong and coordinating with local authorities to smooth the way for the rest of us!!!!!!! Hiemdahl Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jackbear:It seems to be one of the cardinal rules of geocaching that we should be aware of where we place caches, and what environmental impact it will have. Lots of governments seem eager to begin permit systems. What are people doing out there to protect the environmental impact both around their own caches, and caches they visit? Grrrrrrrrr... jackbear Absolutly nothing. I've followed where a horse had gone and guess what... I left less tracks. They don't requier geo-horse permits so I'm not going to worry about some geocachers. If the parks want to have a permit, that's fine. If they want to charge me, No go. If they wan't to know what I'm doing with a cache, that's fine. If they want to inspect it, no problem. If they want to make so many rules and regs that it's not worth it anymore, they can hide their own caches. I'll just post virtual caches in the park and have people visit the area that way. Wherever you go there you are. Quote Link to comment
+majicman Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 I can't wait until Criminal reads this thread! You tree-huggers are gonna get slammed. --majicman Quote Link to comment
+Sissy-n-CR Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Who's the tree hugger? I don't like the broadcasting of the location of the cache. CR Quote Link to comment
+Logscaler and Red Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Team Bohica : I was just wondering which side of the State of Oregon you hunted caches on ? I hope you did not find any trails over here on the dry side. A for those wetsiders, I have hunted very few over there so I can not say anything about trails logscaler. Quote Link to comment
95yj Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Their web site covers a lot of outdoor sports and activities. And guess what folks, most any form of outdoor recreation is coming under fire from the eco-nazi's. I love nature, the outdoors, and all the rest, but I also believe we need to keep it open for all to enjoy. If we show respect for the land and nature, use a bit of common sense along the way. Then this will give the exremist groups a little less ammo to use against us. Locking out humans is not the answer. Ever wonder how it is all the land developers go unchecked while they destroy thousands and thousands of acres of wildlife habitat and open land for the sake of cookie-cutter housing divisions? Yet let somebody wear a small trail or path on public land, and some eco-nut-case goes postal against that person's entire form of recreation. There are vast amounts of double standards and politics involved in land use and access issues. I've spent almost a year trying to just touch on the top layer of it. I'm getting close! Suggestion: When you place or hunt a cache on public land, let the governing agency know about your good experiences, and that you are glad the land is there for the public to enjoy! OK, rant switch is "off" now...... Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Quote Link to comment
95yj Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jackbear:It seems to be one of the cardinal rules of geocaching that we should be aware of where we place caches, and what environmental impact it will have. Lots of governments seem eager to begin permit systems. What are people doing out there to protect the environmental impact both around their own caches, and caches they visit? Grrrrrrrrr... jackbear Well, I turned to get a drink of coffee and bumped the rant switch again! I fully agree with jackbear that we need to use some good common sense rules, especially when hunting caches. many public land agencies are being pressured by enviro extremist groups to close trail access, or limit access by permit. Using all sorts of excuses, most of which can not be verified by honest and factual studies. From human and vehicle impact to the land itself, to disturbing wildlife, to pollution of the soil and waters. But if you step back and think, you will find that responsible use of, and respect for, the land and nature will resolve most all the problems, without banning human access to the land. Nothing outs a bigger burr in my butt than being on a trail for motorized vehicles that was a mining or logging road for years and years, and see where some lazy irresponsible individual has cut across the open land and make their own *trail* just because they didn't want to follow the existing ones. Or felt the *need* to make a shortcut around the switchbacks on a mountain road. This is the type behavior that gets public lands closed to the public. It doesn't matter if you are on foot, bike, kayak, horse, or OHV. If you don't use the land responsibly, you can bet somebody try to get it closed! Rant switch "off" again. I hope the tape holds this time. Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Quote Link to comment
95yj Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by 95yj: quote:Originally posted by jackbear:It seems to be one of the cardinal rules of geocaching that we should be aware of where we place caches, and what environmental impact it will have. Lots of governments seem eager to begin permit systems. What are people doing out there to protect the environmental impact both around their own caches, and caches they visit? Grrrrrrrrr... jackbear Well, I turned to get a drink of coffee and bumped the rant switch again! I fully agree with jackbear that we need to use some good common sense rules, especially when hunting caches. many public land agencies are being pressured by enviro extremist groups to close trail access, or limit access by permit. Using all sorts of excuses, most of which can not be verified by honest and factual studies. From human and vehicle impact to the land itself, to disturbing wildlife, to pollution of the soil and waters. But if you step back and think, you will find that responsible use of, and respect for, the land and nature will resolve most all the problems, without banning human access to the land. Nothing outs a bigger burr in my butt than being on a trail for motorized vehicles that was a mining or logging road for years and years, and see where some lazy irresponsible individual has cut across the open land and make their own *trail* just because they didn't want to follow the existing ones. Or felt the *need* to make a shortcut around the switchbacks on a mountain road. This is the type behavior that gets public lands closed to the public. It doesn't matter if you are on foot, bike, kayak, horse, or OHV. If you don't use the land responsibly, you can bet somebody will try to get it closed! Rant switch "off" again. I hope the tape holds this time. Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 There is no such thing as "leave no trace". We all leave a trace as we pass, matter how careful we are. Deer, bear and beaver, et. al. also leave their traces. Often paths created by animals are more obvious than those created by us folk. The best we can do is to try to limit our impact. One way to do it is to place your cache far off the trail. That way "herd paths" won't form because it's highly unlikely geocachers would take the exact same route. Generally, when herd paths form, it's because the cache is close to the trail and everyone turns off at the same point. Another and more important issue is what exactly is a "sensitive area" and what does "environmental damage" consist of? I realize that once in in a while an area may be the nesting area of a rare bird, or the site of a rare plant, but most of the time an area is declared "sensitive" because some bureaucrat wants to assert control. They target our sport because it's easy. We tell the world what we're doing on the internet. But while athe authorities are out there trying to squash a relatively innocuous sport like geocaching, illegal dumpers, 4 wheelers and game poachers have free reign. A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater [This message was edited by BrianSnat on February 15, 2003 at 06:50 PM.] [This message was edited by BrianSnat on February 15, 2003 at 07:35 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+dreddd2000 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I just started this a couple weeks, ago, but even with all the leaves off the trees, there have been a couple of times when I've spotted a trail leading to the cache location. Some of them fairly obvious. Of course, I've also been thrown off once or twice when I though I had found a "trail" to the cache only to find out I'd just spotted a small game trail and was now going the wrong way. I can't say yet whether or not these trails will be easier or harder to find with all the foliage this summer, but I'm guessing the more popular caches will be easier because of broken sticks, etc. Personally, I've taken to not only hiding the cache again, but, when possible, even hiding the cacher-made trail TO the cache. At very least, I try to wipe out footprints, avoid breaking plants and redistribute leaves. As a suggestion, geocachers might be ask to move their caches every year or two. This would work to minimize the damage in the chosen locals. Of course, this wouldn't be do-able for some caches, but for others, I see no reason why it shouldn't be. I mean the owner should check on it periodically anyway, so why not have them move it periodically and update the post? Geocaching.com could archive any cache that had gone more than 2 years without changing it's location, thus automatically stopping the damage to the cache location and making the conservations happier with our effort to minimize our impact. Don't get me wrong there, I think we're already ahead of the average "norm" in that we encourage cache in, trash out. But, my suggestion would not only cut down our impact on the landscape, but in cache-poor areas, or areas with REALLY active cachers, the moving caches would mean that the sourch would be constantly renewing, even if new caches weren't put out. Anyway, there's the new guy's two cents worth. If I may have my blind-fold and cigarrette, I'll just wait for the firing squad now. Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin; the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentance is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity. --Lazarus Long Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 quote:As a suggestion, geocachers might be ask to move their caches every year or two In most cases the vast majority of finds on a cache come within the first 2 months it's out there. After that, caches (esp. ones in remote areas where leaving a trace may be a concern), are rarely visited. Most of my "remote" caches in "sensitive" areas are hit once every 2-3 months after the initial flurry of finds. A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -Barry Goldwater Quote Link to comment
+jeff35080 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 Geocaches are kinda like a crime scene. As officers, we are taught to limit our access to a crime scene and to keep all unnecessary persons away from it.... the reason being is that you can not enter or leave an area without bringing something in or taking something out. Yes, at a crime scene it may just be small fibers but in the forest it can be a multitude of things. I agree with Brian that after the first couple of months of a cache's life that the traffic generally drops-off and the area will pretty much return to its normal state. Jeff http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com http://www.NotAChance.com If you hide it, they will come.... Quote Link to comment
95yj Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:There is no such thing as "leave no trace". We all leave a trace as we pass, matter how careful we are. Deer, bear and beaver, et. al. also leave their traces. Often paths created by animals are more obvious than those created by us folk. The best we can do is to try to limit our impact. They target our sport because it's easy. We tell the world what we're doing on the internet. But while some authorities are out there trying to squash a relatively innocuous sport like geocaching, illegal dumpers, 4 wheelers and game poachers have free reignland. That's it exactly! Have minimal impact. This is what ALL outdoor recreationalists need to do. And the part about 4 wheelers....The OHV community is under heavy fire from the eco's! With 4x4's at the top of the list, and dirt bikes, ATV's, and snow mobiles changing places daily below the 4x4's. The environmental groups know that public opinion can easily be swayed against motorized vehicles. Now, illegal dumpers and poachers? The parks and wildlife department needs to declare an open season on those people!!!! I'm new to Geocaching, but not land use issues. If you think it's tough to keep land open to the public, try getting it back after they close it! When it comes down to fighting for your favorite form of ourdoor recreation, the people you need to influence most ARE NOT the ones in your sport, but the general voting public! Each group of recreationalists on their own are but a small minority of voters. Without the general public, you're fighting a lost cause. Brian and Jeff are right about the cache areas. Nature has a great ability to bounce back and recover from almost anything. I was in Yellowstone the year after the fires. What beauty there was to see if you just looked for it. The park rangers reported new growth of plants and flowers that had not been seen in years. And wildlife was everywhere, young and old. Like has been said, just use common sense and respect( around both people and wildlife ). Pack out what you pack in, be courteous to those you meet on the trail, no matter what means they are using to travel it. And enjoy being outdoors! Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Quote Link to comment
+jeff35080 Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 A friend of mine placed that I felt to be a unique cache the other day. Here it is: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=54297 I have accepted his challenge and have created my own Clean Up! cache that I will be placing sometime this week. I think that it's up to us (Geocachers) to show/prove that we care about the lands that we access. Caches such as this will help show the general public that we do appreciate the land that we use. Jeff http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com http://www.NotAChance.com If you hide it, they will come.... Quote Link to comment
95yj Posted February 15, 2003 Share Posted February 15, 2003 I wish all outdoor recreationalists had that attitude! The true environmentalist gives something back to the environment, not just sit around and complain about what others do to it!!! Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell Quote Link to comment
+Geo-Johnson's Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 We've noticed mild trails to some of the caches we've been to. We've researched where we want to place our cache when we do hide it, and have decided to put it near a fork in the trail. That way instead of everyone taking one route to the cache, there will be at least 2. We figure that will cut down on normal foot traffic by 50%. Also......and I don't know if the parks are crazy about it, but it seems that the farther off trail the cache is, the less likely it is for a trail to be worn......Just our observation anyway. Children are natural mimics who act like their parents despite every effort to teach them good manners. Quote Link to comment
RossOlson Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 quote:Originally posted by 95yj:I wish all outdoor recreationalists had that attitude! The true environmentalist gives something back to the environment, not just sit around and complain about what others do to it!!! Dennis "The Menace" Mitchell I have to agree with "Only in a YJ", other than the fact he has square headlights. We are top of the food chain and should have the freedom to travel on public lands but with that freedom comes responsibilities. I don't do much geocaching anymore because the places I like to spend time are the forest, mostly federal, and unfortunately it is illegal to geocache there so I stopped. I still off-road, hunt, fish and camp where it is legal. There are those that feel that they should have the right to do what they want and have no since of right and wrong. If you want to maintain your freedoms you have to take responsibility for your actions or someone else will!!!! Ross Quote Link to comment
+HartClimbs Posted February 16, 2003 Share Posted February 16, 2003 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:There is no such thing as "leave no trace". We all leave a trace as we pass, matter how careful we are. Deer, bear and beaver, et. al. also leave their traces. >snip< I've seen deer scat and bear scat - but I'm hoping I don't run into any "geo scat" out there while hunting caches! Quote Link to comment
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