Controversial subject - rules

May 1, 2003

I know we all hate rules that limit what we do as geocachers. HOwever (yes, you saw that coming, didn't you), one of my other avid hobbies is caving.

Before you read any further, PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH ME USING YOUR RESPONSES AS PART OF MY PRESENTATION TO THE NSS OR A FORMAL REQUEST TO GEOCACHING. That is half of my purpose of posting this. Thank you!

To make a semi-flippant comment - what's the point of a geocache placed in the cave when 1) a GPS doesn't work inside and 2) the directions to the cache container are to follow the left wall 30 feet, then turn left and follow that pathway another 40 feet? If you want to follow directions without a GPS, go letterboxing (a very cool sport as well).

There are caches placed in caves (and mines for htat matter), we all know it. I'm not talking commerical caves (since I hope that noone would do such a thing), but wild caves. What people aren't completely aware of is the danger of going into a cave improperly equipped, both physicially and mentally. Going into a cave in tennis shoes and with a flashlight in hands is dangerous. What happens when your ankle twists on some rubble, or your batteries run out? You're stuck in the pitch black, and probably don't know how to get out. This won't happen often, but from being involved in cave rescue, a large number of the media about accidents in caves is due to people who don't know what they're getting themselves into and either get hurt or lost in a cave. Even highly experienced cavers (including the ones I most respect)get seriously injured, and I have tons of yearly cave accident reports to prove it.

I'm not by any means saying that people shouldn't go caving. In fact, I HIGHLY recommend anyone interested in it contact their local grotto (group) and talk to them. Go to a meeting or two, and ask them to take you on a beginners trip. Trust me, we LOVE to bring new people into caves. Once they know the safety rules. Heck, for more info, go to www.caves.org to find a group near you.

So why am I posting this? I'd like to spark debate. I think that, for the safety of players (as well as to protect fragile caves, but truly to keep people from potential serious injury), it would be nice to have a geocaching policy of no placing in caves (or mines for that matter).

I'm hoping I don't get flamed, because I do have a very legitimate reason for wanting a policy like this, and I want feedback from other geocachers. Why do you think caches should be placed in caves? Why do you think that it's a bad idea for caches to be placed in caves?

I am currently organizing a session at the national caving convention this summer to work with cavers, who in general have a negative opinion of geocachers due to the geological impact we can sometimes have. I want to replace these myths with an education about the benefits of geocaches. I'm placing myself in a mediating position to try to foster a good relationship between two communites that can help eachother flourish, so I need opinions from both sides.

In all activities, there are the "bad apples" who do things that aren't appropriate. I can get cavers to understand that the majority are wonderful fabulous people (everyone I've met has been), and I'm going to spout the Cache In Trash Out motto. I need other things to explain to cavers that we do things in an ecologically friendly manner, in general, and try to educate the caving "public".

Especially helpful would be agencies that have postivive policies and opinions of geocaching that I can share.

What do I want in the end? I want the NSS (National Speleological Society, the national caving group) to establish a policy about geocaching which states that caches are not to be placed in caves, but that they fully support geocaching as a good sport . Since the NSS doesn't have any overall rights, it would be just a preference statement, which I'm going to try to get instated. I want the geocaching community to instate a policy that caches should not be placed in caves, or mines, for players' safety.

If you've gotten this far, kudos to you. Please forgive my rambling, for I'm trying to get a serious point across here.

Now....debate!!!! Tell me I'm right on, that I'm off my rocker, or anything else. Thank you!

-Cortney

38.2k · May 1, 2003

It's been discussed here

and here and here

and here.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

2.6k · May 1, 2003

Whatever!

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

May 1, 2003

I think you forgot this one: http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y&a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=9256091791&p=1

You might want to touch base with Hazel if you haven't already.

George

4.7k · May 2, 2003

ok, let's try this.

it's not fair to allow access to one sport but not others, provided all involved know and use the guidelines.

i wouldn't go caving without guidance, not even if there was a cache in there.

same for rock-climbing caches.

of course, there are always idiots, but they tag along with every group.

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

20.7k · May 2, 2003

I don't see why the two activities must be mutually exclusive. I see no problem with an offset cache that directes me to a certain location, from which I must follow directions to find the cache. Therefore, I see no problems with caches being placed within natural caves.

I do believe that no one should attempt a cache that they are not qualified to find. Just as I would not attempt a scuba cache if I was not qualified, I should not attempt a caving cache if I am not qualified. Toward this end, I do not believe that it is appropriate for a rule to be established forbidding caches within caves. A much better solution would be to educate the public regarding the dangers of caving.

May 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sbell111:
I don't see why the two activities must be mutually exclusive. I see no problem with an offset cache that directes me to a certain location, from which I must follow directions to find the cache. Therefore, I see no problems with caches being placed within natural caves.

I do believe that no one should attempt a cache that they are not qualified to find. Just as I would not attempt a scuba cache if I was not qualified, I should not attempt a caving cache if I am not qualified. Toward this end, I do not believe that it is appropriate for a rule to be established forbidding caches within caves. A much better solution would be to educate the public regarding the dangers of caving.

I agree. 'round here we have mine shafts (not a good idea to enter under any conditions) and lava tubes (been stable for several 100K years). Sensitive or unsafe ones have been barricaded or location is not publicized. Safe and durable ones are well known to locals and can be entered by anyone without much concern. A blanket 'one-size-fits-all' policy is unwise and would create more problems in the long run.

========================================

"The time has come" the Walrus said "to speak of many things; of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings".

24.7k · May 2, 2003

The purpose of a cache in or near a cave is to see the cave.

Caves happen to be cool along with waterfalls, scenic vistas and other things.

That is a large part of what geocaching is about. Thus a cache in or near a cave is within the bounds of geocaching.

"Wild Caves" and "Commercial Caves" have no discition on my book. They are both valuable because I have placed a value on them. However they have no value whatsoever if no human ever sees them. Nature values nothing and is indifferent. Caves in nature are places to fill up with Bat Guano. Pack Rat nests, or to collect dust, dirt and to ultimatly collaps.

Caver groups also value caves enough to specialize in them enough to learn the skills to safetly enter and explore more difficult caves. I'm not that extreme, I'll settle for the commercial caves and others I can hike into without a rope.

One of our local cavers guilds refused to let a geocacher join. They also threatended to steal caches placed near "Their" caves. The cave in question is a teenage party spot and geocaching can only help clean it up. We are not talking a pristine cave so nice that even cavers think they should not go there. And by the way, any cave a caver thinks they can go in, is ok for me to go in. Geocaches are not exclusive. Cavers try to be. That galls me more than any legitimite issue like hibernating bats.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

1.6k · May 2, 2003

I think a bettr solution would be to establish guidelines for placing caches in caves instead of outright prohibiting them. For instance, is venturing 50' into a straight and stable cave any more dangerous than going out into the woods without a compass and having only one set of batteries? I doubt it. There is inherent risks with almost all outdoor sports. Read the "Ouch" post where a guy ended up cutting off an arm because he got trapped while rock climbing.

Actually, what I think would be a better solution would be to post caches by cavers and have the coords be only within a few miles and you have to seek out the local grotto to get the final coordinates. This would encourage those of us looking for adventure into something new.

Another would be a full NSS member becoming a cache approver that deals with all of the cave caches. You can make sure all of the appropriate warnings and what-not are on the cache pages.

Another, harder to implement solution would be for Jeremy to establish member levels or attributes. Volunteers from the appropriate groups would approve different member levels. So for caving, if a cacher wants to seek cave caches, he'd apply for a caving "tag" and a NSS approver would approve the member, or not, and then the cacher would be able to see the cave caches. This would encourage participation in the local groups.

However, that last solution would be of limited use as not too many activities are that dangerous and easily accessible at the same time. For instance, there would be little need for a SCUBA tag as you have to have expensive equipment and I doubt you can rent any without some kind of SCUBA certification. Rock climbing might be one, I don't know.

But any of the above would be better than simply prohibiting caches.

CR

20.7k · May 2, 2003

The fact is, rules are not the solution to this issue. If they can't establish a rule from keeping any teenager who wants to from wandering into the cave, why should I be regulated.

A cache in a cave is like any other. I am responsible for determining whether I have the skill set required to complete my mission. I accept any potential dangers associated with my completion of the mission.

1.6k · May 2, 2003

I think some of the problem is the fact we publish the coordinates of the caches in caves. It's probably a security through obscurity thing again.

But you're right, if any old Joe can go there, why shouldn't we be allowed?

CR

1.3k · May 2, 2003

How about a coopertaive effort with the owner of the cache and the NSS? The potential finder has to contact the local grotto for the coordinates, and a guide to the cache location. The whole point of caching is sharing locations. So, let's share.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

May 3, 2003

quote:
To make a semi-flippant comment - what's the point of a geocache placed in the cave when 1) a GPS doesn't work inside

Not all cachers use a GPS.

quote:
]2) the directions to the cache container are to follow the left wall 30 feet, then turn left and follow that pathway another 40 feet?

Go on some "night time only" caches. There are some very clever "night time only" cache hiders out there who can assure you that the cache hunt doesn't have to be anything like what you described.

quote:
There are caches placed in caves (and mines for htat matter), we all know it. I'm not talking commerical caves (since I hope that noone would do such a thing), but wild caves. What people aren't completely aware of is the danger of going into a cave improperly equipped, both physicially and mentally.

I agree, that is dangerous. And it would be enough to keep me from trying to get that cache. Others mentioned having guides from the local club, I think that is a great idea. Some cachers will probably love the caving experience and join the organization. Other cachers might be happy as hell that they have a guide to get them out of that cave as quiclkly as possible.

quote:
What do I want in the end? I want the NSS (National Speleological Society, the national caving group) to establish a policy about geocaching which states that caches are not to be placed in caves, but that they fully support geocaching as a good sport . Since the NSS doesn't have any overall rights, it would be just a preference statement, which I'm going to try to get instated. I want the geocaching community to instate a policy that caches should not be placed in caves, or mines, for players' safety

You want geocachers support to say 'no' to caches in caves and then encourage geocachers to be part of your caving organization ...I understand your reasons of safety but, I think you would get more support if there was a way for both communities to come together, and not bite the hand you are asking to feed you.

"The more I study nature, the more I am amazed at the Creator."

- Louis Pasteur

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on May 03, 2003 at 11:19 AM.

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on May 03, 2003 at 11:22 AM.]

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on May 03, 2003 at 11:24 AM.]

[This message was edited by Ce'Nedra on May 03, 2003 at 11:25 AM.]

May 3, 2003

quote:
So why am I posting this? I'd like to spark debate.

yawn...

Published experts (1, 2) say with certainty that critical situations will arise which are totally unexpected.

May 3, 2003

To start a good debate, I’d think you’d need to give some examples of caches in caves that pose risks. Give good examples, with well thought our risk analysis, then get input. Personally, I haven’t seen any caches that were actually in caves, but I’ve seen a few that were near the mouths of caves. I’ve seen one thread where someone had an issue with a cache in a cave, and the cache owner eventually agreed with those not wanting the cache in that area and removed it.

As for environmental impact, or general safety of individuals, it applies to everything in the outdoors. Be the cache in a cave, on a mountain top, miles into a forest, or out in flat desert land, a person shouldn’t venture out there without adequate knowledge of the skills required to be in the area they’re in. While not part of an organized search and rescue team, I’ve been involved in several searches, and actually stumbled across and rescued a couple of mountain bikers who were lost even though they had a GPS.

One of the biggest issues I’ve become more aware of as a result of geocaching is elitism, secret societies, or whatever you want to call them. Geocachers try to remain secretive, because there are bad apples out there who plunder caches, don’t log travel bugs etc. Supposed environmentalists get all up in arms because impure soles might venture into the woods for other than the right reasons. Leave No Trace aficionados, get upset because there is a “trace” left behind, even though it’s something likely to take a lot of searching to find. Archeologists get upset because a virtual cache might allow people to be able to find ancient ruins like pictographs. Of course the assorted caving groups are just one of the many who fall into this category.

Rather than trying to implement blanket polices, my input would be for the different groups to become familiar with one another, and work things on a case by case basis. From what I’ve seen, they’re all mostly people who genuinely love the outdoors, and getting out and exploring. Be it geocachers, or spelunkers, there are those out there who think the worst of them, in large part because they don’t understand them. I would think a little cooperation would result in things working out to where everyone could enjoy the wonders out there without negative impact. Who knows, the answer may be to license outdoor adventures of all sorts, requiring mandatory training prior to getting the permit. (I can imagine the debate over that issue). I don't think trying to restrict, or single out individual groups (Like geocachers) is a good way of doing things.

The information Genie is out of the bottle I'm afraid. Trying to protect things like caves, by keeping the location secret probably isn't a viable option anymore.

If only I could get backpacker magazine to quit posting stories about the wonders of my favorite backpacking area.......

1.7k · May 3, 2003

Trying to keep geocachers out of all caves is just as ridiculous as trying to keep all non-NSS members out of them. They do not "belong" to the NSS nor any government agency. They belong to the people of the US.

I think if there are especially "fragile" caves that need protecting, the NSS could provide that info and direct cachers towards other caves (as a courtesy, not a demand).

I saw one page on the NSS site stating they were going to ask some governmental agency to forbid caching in any caves. Be aware, that if they banned caches, the next sport to be banned might be caving, once someone figures that keeping everyone out is a good idea.

You might be cutting off your own <name a body part>.

I've seen web sites where cavers don't like geocachers, and where hikers don't like geocachers, and hikers don't like mountain bikers, and everyone hates ATVers, and........

It seems like each activity feels the woods/mountaines/plains/etc belong only to them.

Perhaps cooperation is better than banning or stealing caches or all the other means of "fighting" an activity that are discussed on the Internet.

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

May 3, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
"Wild Caves" and "Commercial Caves" have no discition on my book. They are both valuable because I have placed a value on them. However they have no value whatsoever if no human ever sees them. Nature values nothing and is indifferent. Caves in nature are places to fill up with Bat Guano. Pack Rat nests, or to collect dust, dirt and to ultimatly collaps.

Not true.

Caves are homes to various forms of wildlife. Some caves have important roles in the water supply.

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't have value.

George

May 3, 2003

quote:
Trying to keep geocachers out of all caves is just as ridiculous as trying to keep all non-NSS members out of them. They do not "belong" to the NSS nor any government agency. They belong to the people of the US.

I have to disagree. Just because something belongs to "the people of the US" does not guarantee access. You could say the White House belongs to the people of the US, but you sure aren't going to have easy access to it.

Most caves *do* belong to someone or to some entity. That entity is liable for what goes on in the cave. If the cave belongs to the city, and the city fathers decide not to let you in there, guess what? You can't (or aren't supposed to) go in, even if it is "public property".

No. The NSS doesn't own all the caves (though it may own some). Other groups of cavers have gotten together and have purchased land over caves to insure caver access.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even cavers don't have free access to caves. Access to many caves has been the result of a carefully cultivated relationship with owners of caves (both public and private). These relationships can take years to develop, but only hours to destroy.

Unfortunately, when geocachers have the attitude that they can do whatever they want in caves, it does raise the hackles of those who have been working the environmental and political issues for years.

Cave access isn't as easy as it seems. There are many issues and responsibilities. Unless geocachers understand and respect this, I fear a division between the two groups will continue.

George

1.7k · May 4, 2003

Once the cave is owned by a private individual, organization, or corporation, it is then private property and subject to the private property rules of geocaching. (I.e. don't, unless you have permission).

I am referring to public lands like forests and parks. I am referring to public caves that the NSS and other cavers freely go to. I'd hate to see certain "classes" of citizens allowed to do one thing and other "classes" not allowed to do the same thing. My impression is that the NSS wanted all cachers to avoid all caves. If that is not true, then a dialog between the two activities would help.

The statement "have the attitude that they can do whatever they want in caves" seems to cover more than caching.

Perhaps instead of an antagonistic approach, an educational effort would be in order. Education and communications help foster cooperation.

(Personally, I probably would not place a cache in a cave, but I'd hate to see legislation banning such an activity.)

DustyJacket

Not all those that wander are lost. But in my case...

May 4, 2003

What public caves that cavers freely go to? I don't think you understand that many "public" caves are off-limits, even to cavers. Access is blocked, or the location is kept secret.

There are several reasons for this...environmental protection and owner (even public) liability are big ones. Just because it is "public" doesn't mean you are authorized to go in. Neither does membership in a caving organization automatically grant you entrance.

Cave access issues are more complex than your realize.

George

24.7k · May 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Not true.

Caves are homes to various forms of wildlife. Some caves have important roles in the water supply.

Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't have value.

George

If the cave wasn't there, there would still be a water supply. If the cave wasn't there animals would live elsewhere. If the cave collapsed tomorrow nature would adapt.

Humans give the value to the cave, to the wildlife, to the water, to the cave itself. But nature doesn't care one whit.

Now I'm not saying I don't like caves. The point is that it's we humans who give things value. Because of that its plain as day to you that a cave is worth protecting because it's just plain cool. Buy it wouldn't be obviouse to you that a cave has different values to other people. These values are also legimite.

For example. Do we have an underground ATV club? Why not? It's a valid use and would add a challenge to ATVing? It's a valid point of view.

What about a mushroom farm? We got to feed all these people. What about a nuke shelter (been done).

Bat farm? Testing area for Cosmic Rays? Free public access? Teenage party spot? Geocache zone? Underground scuba park?

I've not listed all the potential uses for caves, but I'll bet you could find people interested in some of these or other's I didn't think of all of which "Cavers" would be against but all of which are valid uses of our natural resource.

Value comes from us. Not nature. Nature applies no value to itself. It just exists.

There are more geocachers than cavers now, and geocaching is growing faster. Learn to compromise or majority will rule.

Nothering personal here. Just my take. Now I've got to go fight my own battle for a motorized access to BLM land...(and I don't even own an ATV/Motorcycle)

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

May 5, 2003

And your take is quite ignorant and sophmoric.

Nature does apply values. A squirrel will choose a hollow tree over a solid rock for a home. That's assigning a value.

At the most basic level, nature insists on certain physical constants. Any deviation from these constants results in non-existance. If that's not promoting certain values, I don't know what is.

I suggest you study the science involved. Especially the area of cave science and how it fits into nature, with and without humans.

You might want to read up on philosophy, too.

The simple fact is that nature can exist without man, but man cannot exist without nature.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on May 05, 2003 at 09:14 PM.]

May 5, 2003

Actually (to the fellow directly above) he actually took time to explain his points. You apparently consider yours to be self-evident, which frankly... are not. His statement, with which I do not entirely agree, is not ingnorant or sophmoric. Rather short-sighted and possibly self absorbed, but hardly ignorant. From the tone he has some knowledge of humanist philosophy. He took more time with answer than many. And if you're going to respond with such a haughty attitude you should probably counter point at least a couple of his points, otherwise this all becomes a big, "nuh uhhh... uh huh... does not... does so," tug of war.

May 5, 2003

I suggest you read it again, as I was editing.

Yes, it is a haugty attitude. I don't suffer fools.

I'd really like to know how he thinks if all the caves were all filled up, there would still be a water supply. That might be true in some areas, but others would turn into a wasteland.

The simple fact that he suggest geocachers will win this debate by outnumbering cavers is laughable.

It's this kind of attitude that gives geocaching a bad name with some groups. I've been a geocaching advocate with the caving community, but blow-hard ignorance like this makes almost makes me want to endorse an all-out ban on geocaching near caves.

As far as his humanist philosopy, it is terribly weak and flawed. It quickly reduces to "the only values that matter are mine". That's why I suggest he study philosophy. Only a sophist would make such an argument.

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on May 05, 2003 at 09:44 PM.]

9.4k · May 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Yes, it is a haugty attitude. I don't suffer fools.

Ouch. You must be a riot at parties. Perhaps you should argue points instead of resulting in aggressive insults?

Renegade Knight made a good point: Nature doesn't "care" - that is a human emotion. Nature accepts and adapts. If it doesn't adapt it does not survive. Humans put values on things, which is another human emotion. A squirrel may look at a rock and a hollow tree and pick the tree, but I doubt it laments on the loss of a cave. Nor does it believe in beauty. A well-placed soup can will make as just a good home as a tree, if not better. Humans notice the ugliness of the can, not the squirrel.

But I'm certainly human, so I'd rather see bats in a cave and a squirrel in a tree.

You are also correct. Nature can exist without man, and man relies on nature to survive. Is there a point? Probably not unless you are advocating humanicide for the sake of nature. So lets talk coexistence instead.

Let's go back to discussion and not pigtail pulling, k?

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

May 6, 2003

I've argued the points many times over, but there still remains an ignorant attitude that people can do whatever they want in caves, that they have some special right to be there, that cavers are responsible for keeping them out, and a host of other nonsense.

It's gotten to the point that I'm almost not willing to go to bat for geocachers regarding caves any longer. It's hard to defend geocaching to fellow cavers when they see posts like Renegade Knight's.

George

May 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

Humans notice the ugliness of the can, not the squirrel.

But I'm certainly human, so I'd rather see bats in a cave and a squirrel in a tree.

Nature can exist without man, and man relies on nature to survive. Is there a point? Jeremy Irish

Hey man, quit Bogartin' that point!

1.6k · May 6, 2003

Hey, can we get back on point and figure out a way to make the NSS folks happy and still have caches in cave?

There is a simple fact I see, both sides have something over on the other. A single NSS member can do quite a bit of damage by retrieving all caches in his area and letting others know where to find more. On the other, hiders can simply use virts to point people to every cave around, and if I understand correctly, not something the NSS would like.

This is similar to the problem with placing caches in wilderness areas. I was reading up on those and found out that you have to have a permit to go in certain areas. They are so strict that they limit the number of visitors! I wouldn't have known this until I got turned around by one of the volunteers that asked for my permit. Who would have thunk it!?!

Seems to me a good solution would be to endorse a policy of making sure people are authorized to be there. I'm not only talking about trepassing issues, but ability issues. Do you have the proper permits if permits are required? Are you an experienced caver? ...climber? ...at rappelling?

Yes, we assume all risks. No, I don't want things spelled out on each cache page. But, what's wrong with some kind of "head's up" page stating things like:

If the cache is shown to be in a Wilderness Area, make sure you have proper permits if required.
If the hunt requires you to go into a cave, be sure you are experienced and are properly equipped. See your local grotto for more info.
...

This just might go a long way towards letting other groups see us as something other than blundering idiots in their field.

Caching, by its very nature, is a hobby that can range from very simple and easy to multi-disciplined requiring permits and licenses. You can start with only internet access and a cache near your home at one end of the scale. At the other, SCUBA and rock climbing courses, stamina training for hiking miles into the wilderness, orienteering, weight-loss and strength training to tackle climbing, HAM radio licenses for emergency communications far afield. The list goes on and on. And each one has its own group of advocates and aficionados which will take offense to "outsiders" blundering into their territory.

When one of these fields is dangerous or threatening in any way, the expert groups can point to our general lack of knowledge in that area as a threat and use it against us. Their points can be valid or not, it doesn't matter because people who come in there don't know all of the in's and out's and all cachers get painted with the same brush. The end result is caches being banned.

It might be a wiser approach to present cachers as--and encourage them to be--members of these groups, than a group seperate from them. (Not neccessarily a paying member of NSS, say, but be considered a caver, for example.)

This may be the only way caching can survive in certain areas.

CR

May 6, 2003

I pretty much agree with what you're saying, but making the NSS "happy" doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Cave access is a complex issue. The NSS doesn't have any particular control over cave access, members, or of cave owners and managers. Having their endorsement does help, of course.

To make a long story short, cavers don't have the free access to caves that some here apparently believe. It takes a lot of effort to obtain and maintain access through whomever is responsible for what goes on in the cave (yes, even those on public land). It doesn't take much to screw up these relationships and get a cave shut down completely.

George

1.6k · May 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
Cave access is a complex issue. The NSS doesn't have any particular control over cave access, members, or of cave owners and managers.

Well, it sounds like you know what you're talking about. Like I was mentioning above, being multi-disciplined we need people who know what they are talking about to teach/introduce us to these disciplines. Bickering amongst ourselves solves nothing. We need action. Even a collection of links to more information would be helpful. A GC.com page with organised links would be very helpfull, but even a third party page is better than nothing. I'm thinking about something myself, I may just sponsor such a page.

CR

2.3k · May 6, 2003

Isn't it amazing that caves have been around for millions of years, and now mankind thinks they have to "take care" of them? Believe me, we are but a blip on the evolutionary scale. Cities will fall, roads will be grown over and disappear, and remnants of mankind will turn to dust. They caves will be here long after humanity is gone. Nature will erase us and continue on its course. Now get back to caching while you still have time to enjoy it!

May 6, 2003

See. That's exactly the attitude that rubs cavers the wrong way.

We're not "taking care" of the cave, but protecting it from ourselves. Some formations are extremely fragile...taking thousands of years to form, but can be destroyed in seconds.

With attitudes expressed here, we might as well pave over everything and shoot all the critters we see. After all, nature will repair itself, right?

George

May 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:
After all, nature will repair itself, right?

That much is certain. Once this blight called humanity is gone - all will be well again.

I think it's about responsible use - but many others have made that point already. Whether you're caving, geocaching, climbing, mountainbiking, backpacking, etc..., it's incumbent to balance the use with ensuring the area is left for others to enjoy in the future.

Can't we all just get along?

There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home. - Ken Olsen, President, Digital Equipment, 1977

May 6, 2003

Dear All,

Sorry it’s taken me so long to respond. OK, so here we go on this topic… again. I would encourage all those who have missed previous discussions of caches in caves to review previous discussions about the topic, as they contain quite a bit of useful information. I’m not going to review it all here, but please check the following link:

http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=9256091791&r=5356091791#5356091791

The National Speleological Society does not have an official policy on geocaching, nor do we plan on establishing one. We do, however, look forward to the opportunity to work with the geocaching community toward conservation goals.

After talking with Courtney, I look forward to the geocaching discussion group at our annual convention this year. It will be interesting to see what proportion of our membership are geocachers themselves. Hopefully this discussion will lead to a formalized mechanism of connecting and working with the geocaching community (which I’ve been too disorganized of late to arrange myself!).

Many thanks,

Hazel

24.7k · May 6, 2003

quote:
It's hard to defend geocaching to fellow cavers when they see posts like Renegade Knight's.

As opposed to defending Cavers against geocachers?

You will find that I'm really not agaisnt caves or anything else. But my view is that people live on this planet with many different views on recreation. We do the best for the most. In that process we do not protect things from the people but for the people. The hard part is the morons we all wish we could nail to the wall.

Thus Caves are not the exclusive domain of cavers though cavers might take more intereste in them than others.

Geocachers take more interested in a lot of aspects of the environment. Some will take a shining to lakes, others parks, some caves. The people who promote these things will be better off for the participation of geocachers.

Still, if you want to say "No" to ATV's, or any other recration I will line up against you because "No" has no room for balance. ATV's have a place, Cavers have a place, hikers, mountainbikers, horse back riders, 4x4'ers etc. Sometimes this place isn't side by side. Thats were compromise comes on.

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

May 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cavess:

The National Speleological Society does not have an official policy on geocaching, nor do we plan on establishing one. We do, however, look forward to the opportunity to work with the geocaching community toward conservation goals.

It's great when we can have civil discussions. Part of the problem, as many have already noted, is the possessive attitudes of some cavers.

It's especially sad when members of the caving community doesn't respect the regulations of other groups or even national agencies. There was an incident last year where a few cavers were digging within the Appalachian Trail corridor trying to find new caves (a distinctly illegal act).

I recognize that these people are members of a small and disapproved-of minority, but they do give other cavers a bad name. Sort of like the rare geocacher who damages the cool place to which their sport has brought them. Something it seems you recognize, but which I hope you remind your fellow cavers of.

Ron/yumitori

May 6, 2003

Here we go again...geocachers are holier than thou, and talk of the "possessive attitudes" of cavers.

I can't make it much clearer that access to caves is not in the hands of most cavers. It's pretty much in the hands of cave owners and managers. About the only things the cavers "possess" is the good will of the people who do control access to the caves.

If geocachers are so bent on having the caves open to them, then go to the people who manage the caves, and tell them how well you are equipped and experienced to handle the cave environment, how you won't violate any federal laws, you won't hold them liable if anyone gets hurt, and otherwise won't cause them any trouble.

If you succeed, more power to you.

For those promoting caching in caves, why do the safety, authorization, and liability issues get glossed over? Is there anyone here with caving experience who promotes non-cavers entering caves without guidance, let alone the hiding of foreign materials inside the cave?

George

[This message was edited by nincehelser on May 06, 2003 at 04:28 PM.]

2.3k · May 6, 2003

Honestly, I do not care to put a cache in a cave. Whats the point? The GPSr won't work in there anyhow, so you don't even really need it to find the cache. It's more like letterboxing at that point.

Now, about access to caves: I think you are imagining that hundreds of people are going to come bumbling into caves, breaking off delicate formations and throwing their beer bottles down the "bottomless pit" just to hear how far down it goes. As much as I like exploring, I also have a great respect for the land I walk on. I also know my limits. A little ways into the cave, yes, but don't expect me to go so far in that I could get turned around. I will leave the rest of the cave to an expert, which I know I am not.

If we should be worried about going underground, we should be discussing entering MINES. They are much more unstable than caves, which have been around millenia, whereas abandoned mines are often flooded and have rotted timbers that could collapse any minute. I have been in a few down here in Arizona, and it gets scary after 100' in, trust me. All the dangers run through your head.

Either way, in a thousand years, none of us will be thinking about this issue anymore.

May 6, 2003

I'm writing this off the cuff, so I haven't checked any figures, but out of the thousands of geocaches that exist, how many are in caves, or have anything to do with caves? What is the terrain difficulty of them and how often are they sought compared to non-cave caches? I'm guessing here but the answers would be a) miniscule, harder then average (at least a 3 difficulty) which means that c) they get fewer visits then the average park & grab 2/2.

I am reading this & whuile I understand the arguments (when i cut this all the falgercarb & BS, reminds me of two animals hissing and arching their backs for crying out loud) I am wondering what all ths fuss is about.

I think that most geocachers are responsible enough to not hide caches in risky spots, and not overreach & go for something beyond their ability. Yeah you'll have the occasional geobuddy shmuck, but thats the exception no the rule (at least I hope it is)

This whole idea of banning caches in cave would seem to punish all for the acts of a few. In that case, let's ban all hiking because of the occasional idiot who doesn't put out their camp fire, bank all mountain climbing because of people who didn't check the weather report & get trapped by a snow squall, and so on and so on and so on.

quote:
If geocachers are so bent on having the caves open to them...

I'm not pushing for anything but I will resist when something is taken away even if I might not have used it. I think most of us feel the same way. I think this is a non-issue really.

38.2k · May 6, 2003

quote:
For those promoting caching in caves, why do the safety, authorization, and liability issues get glossed over? Is there anyone here with caving experience who promotes non-cavers entering caves without guidance, let alone the hiding of foreign materials inside the cave?

Dear nincehelser,

Kindly explain the difference between hiding a cache in a cave and hiding one 100 feet underwater, along a cliff face, on top of a 14,000 ft tall mountain ,or in a tidal flat where if you time it wrong, you can get caught under 8 feet of water?

I've visited, or read about caches of the latter sort. How do the liability and safety issues in caves differ? Just curious.

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on May 06, 2003 at 08:44 PM.]

May 7, 2003

quote:
Now, about access to caves: I think you are imagining that hundreds of people are going to come bumbling into caves, breaking off delicate formations and throwing their beer bottles down the "bottomless pit" just to hear how far down it goes.

Oh, I'm not imagining. I've spent quite some time picking up broken beer bottles and cans deep within a cave, surrounded by broken and defaced formations.

George

May 7, 2003

quote:
Kindly explain the difference between hiding a cache in a cave and hiding one 100 feet underwater, along a cliff face, on top of a 14,000 ft tall mountain ,or in a tidal flat where if you time it wrong, you can get caught under 8 feet of water?

I've visited, or read about caches of the latter sort. How do the liability and safety issues in caves differ? Just curious.

The big difference is that cave enterances can easily be blocked off to deny access. You can't put a fence around a ocean, lake, or mountain, but you can easily fence off a cave entrance or take a bulldozer and fill it in. This unfortunately has been the fate of many caves due to liability issues.

George

May 7, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Gwho:
This whole idea of banning caches in cave would seem to punish all for the acts of a few.

The problem is that if one person screws up (geocacher or casual explorer, or even caver), everyone gets punished, cavers included, if the cave is suddenly declared off limits.

The risk to caving is far greater than the risk to geocaching.

George

1.3k · May 7, 2003

Let's see, what is the definition of "caver"? My dictionary at home doesn't recognize caver as a word, but "spelunker" is defined simply as "a person who explores caves as a hobby".

The issue, as I understand it, is whether geocaches will harm caves and access thereto. It seems as though the people who explore caves as a hobby are concerned that people who don't explore caves as a hobby will somehow be more detrimental to the caves themselves, and the efforts of the hobbyists to secure access.

I don't believe that you have to be a "caver" to be responsible in a cave. Noone was born a caver, everything necessary to safely explore them was learned. It is not inconceivable that a cacher could learn the skills required to navigate a cave without causing any more damage than someone who does it with the caving community's endorsement. If caves are that fragile (Letugilla?) that any human presence will alter their conditions, then people should stay the heck out of them. I guess cavers are people too. Why is it important to visit a cave for recreation? Do people need to go in there? If a cacher goes through the proper channels, obtains permission from the land owner/manager, has the necessary skills, and implements a means to ensure only cachers with those skills hunt the cache, why shouldn't it happen?

Is it the skills, or the "membership in the club" that makes a person worthy to explore a cave?

The substance of this post is a series of questions, I just want to know what people think. I'm not trying to "cave bash" or anything. There aren't any caves in my state to my knowledge. If there were, and they had caches in them, I'd go look. Yes, I know about the undercut edges of underground lakes, the need for triple redundancy in your light source and equipment, the need to never go alone. Yes I've got a helmet and a harness and a carbide lamp and a few hundred feet of webbing, ropes and assorted jumars, gibbs ascenders, and rappel/belay devices. I know how to tie and dress a fig.8 with one hand in the dark. But, I'm not a caver.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

May 8, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BloenCustoms:
I don't believe that you have to be a "caver" to be responsible in a cave. Noone was born a caver, everything necessary to safely explore them was learned. It is not inconceivable that a cacher could learn the skills required to navigate a cave without causing any more damage than someone who does it with the caving community's endorsement.

Learn the skills, know the issues, and get permission. I don't have any trouble with that.

quote:
If caves are that fragile (Letugilla?) that any human presence will alter their conditions, then people should stay the heck out of them.

Some caves are that fragile, and cavers are denied access.

quote:
I guess cavers are people too. Why is it important to visit a cave for recreation? Do people need to go in there?

That's the attitude of some cave managers. The result is no one can enter.

quote:
If a cacher goes through the proper channels, obtains permission from the land owner/manager, has the necessary skills, and implements a means to ensure only cachers with those skills hunt the cache, why shouldn't it happen?

That's a lot of ifs. I don't see any problem with that scenario, but good luck on implemenatation.

quote:
Is it the skills, or the "membership in the club" that makes a person worthy to explore a cave?

It's the skill. It's the knowledge. It's the experience. It's understanding what you're doing and how it impacts the environment and those who come after you. There is no "membership" other than having the respect of the others involved.

quote:
The substance of this post is a series of questions, I just want to know what people think. I'm not trying to "cave bash" or anything. There aren't any caves in my state to my knowledge. If there were, and they had caches in them, I'd go look. Yes, I know about the undercut edges of underground lakes, the need for triple redundancy in your light source and equipment, the need to never go alone. Yes I've got a helmet and a harness and a carbide lamp and a few hundred feet of webbing, ropes and assorted jumars, gibbs ascenders, and rappel/belay devices. I know how to tie and dress a fig.8 with one hand in the dark. But, I'm not a caver.

I'm not sure what the above means. Equipment doesn't make you qualified. Other than a helmet, I don't have any of the other equipment you list, but then I'm not really into vertical caving at the moment. The only carbide lamps I've seen are those on the display shelf of older cavers.

If you can convince those responsible for the cave that that you know what you're doing and are responsible, then more power to you.

George

20.7k · May 8, 2003

Other than being a member of the NSS, what makes an individual uniquely qualified to enter a cave?

If a cave is accessible to the average beer swilling teen, why should I be forbidden to enter?

On what authority does the NSS have to regulate my activities?

May 8, 2003

(*sigh*)

It's not so much a question of qualification, but more of authorization.

The "average beer swilling teen" isn't supposed to be there either. Nor are they supposed to be drinking.

No one gave the NSS authority to regulate your activities, nor have they evem tried. You are, however, bound by the laws of the land, and the policies of those in charge of the cave's management.

George

1.3k · May 8, 2003

Actually, I chose a carbide lamp (backed up with a petzl electric headlamp) because I thought it was neat and nostalgic. It does have the advantage of being somewhat more rugged than a lightbulb. Hot filaments can break if your light sustains a shock. However, if you are going to be on a rope, batteries all the way. A white hot acetylene flame will part a taut rope as sure as a razor blade.

"Searching with my good eye closed"

Controversial subject - rules

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Join the conversation