Pure Letterboxes

1.6k · January 11, 2003

I've been wondering about the Letterbox Hybrid, most of which is the type we've put out even though they're listed as Traditional. The reason they're listed as traditional is we haven't gotten around to listing them on the letterboxing site and don't want people to miss them.

I would like to list some pure letterboxes--which I can on LB.org, but I didn't get the first visit from the LB community so I listed them here.

Now, I'm sure you understand a pure letterbox is simply the log and stamp, maybe a stamp pad, pretty much nothing else. In order to claim you found it you carry a logbook and an a stamp, you swap stamp impressions as proof. It's kind of hard to cheat if you don't have that impression. I do have a couple that started off as pure LB's, and now hybrids, and people insist on trading, but that's cool, as long as it doesn't get too crowded.

Anyway, I've been wondering what about allowing, with it's own attribute or cache type, pure letterboxes?

Here's how I envision it working without regard to how it's distinguished from the other cache types. The coordinates are for the center of the county it is in, the county seat, or maybe the courthouse of the town it's in, anything close as it's only a mechanism to list nearby LB's

The cache description is letterbox-style giving clues or directions to find the cache. To distinguish this cache-type GPS coordinates are discouraged. (Yeah, I know, "then it's not caching." Exactly!) Compass directions, paces, landmarks, etc. etc. are what is used to find these.

Retain the ability to log finds on the site, but the stated requirement to be able to claim that find is you must have it's stamp impression. Challenges, if issued, can be handled similar to virtuals and have them describe the stamp image, maybe even scan or take a pic of the logbook page and sent it to the owner.

I understand you can do something similar now, but it's kludgy.

In the Letterbox world people list finds, placings, and exchanges as part of their signature. I'd like to see a way to be able to list off-site FPX's. List the name of Letterbox and date found and it show up on GC.com. Like stated earlier, a LB'er will have a log, and thus proof, of the find.

I feel that people would enjoy this different type of hunt. I also think you'd get newbie Letterboxers over here, maybe even some of the more established folk if the site would accomodate them.

[Pure site rivalry aside, I think there is a reason that people prefer this site over the others and it has nothing to do with Jeremy's avatars. ]

Watcha think?

CR

[Opps! Maybe I should have put this over in the "Geocaching.com Discussion" forum.]

9.2k · January 11, 2003

You said it yourself - "then it's not caching."

Trying to piggyback pure letterboxing onto geocaching is a determent to both activities. Sure, letterboxing only has a small fraction of the sites that geocaching does, but what you're suggesting will only make it worse.

Letterboxing doesn't get the publicity that geocaching does (no cool gadgets involved). Why not try to increase letterboxing awareness in your area? See if you can get the local paper interested in doing a story?

2.6k · January 11, 2003

I don't see a problem with a Letterbox theme. However expecting the Geocaching site to support Pure Letterbox caches is unreasonable.

A Letterbox cache is not a virtual. Virtual rules should not be enforced on anyone seeking a cache of this nature.

It would be nice if every cacher followed the theme of a cache. If they don't adhere to your theme are you going to delete there log? That could certainly sore the experience for new cachers of this sport.

As for using directions and compass work to find the final stage of a multi-cache, it's been done before. I don't see why you can't do that with yours.

If you do not extend your expectations unto others, you will not be disappointed by the stupid things they do.

Mokita!

1.6k · January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Prime Suspect:
Trying to piggyback pure letterboxing onto geocaching is a determent to both activities.

I have to respectfully disagree. Both activities are very similar in that the basic concept is the recreation of using various means of finding an object hidden by another player. Beyond that, letterboxing is very similar to puzzle caches, except for the fact you're not using a GPS. We have virtuals and locationless caches which only resemble the rest because you use a GPS.

Plus, some caches are hidden so well, that you have to use the hint to find them. This is very much like letterbox-style clues, only you used a GPS to get in the general area.

Sure, geocaching by definition means you use a GPS to find the cache and if TPTB reject this simply because of this, then so be it. Though, I would be very disappointed.

Geocaching brings people in touch with myriad skills; map reading, logic, hiking, not to mention the operation of the GPS. It also gets them to places they might not otherwise see.

Letterboxing would bring more to the game of finding things, IHMO.

quote:
Sure, http://www.letterboxing.org/ only has a small fraction of the sites that geocaching does, but what you're suggesting will only make it worse.

This I have to agree with. Not to be callous, but the reason that site is not taking off could be the fact that once you exhaust the LB's in your area you look for something else and you find this site. Most never look back.

Now, if you start adding LB's to this site there would little reason--as it stands--to list the LB on that site. It would be a downhill slide.

I'd be willing to wager that if TPTB implemeted the Pure Letterbox type cache and people from the LBing community listed their boxes here, those LB's would see a dramatic increase in activity.

In conclusion, I don't see the first harm to geocaching to list LB's here. I do see a great good to letterboxing by listing LB's here. I do see a benefit to the geocaching community in the fact there would be another interesting type of cache to go after and way to go after it. Unfortunately, I do see it hurting Letterboxing.org because it would be taking away from that site. You have to ask yourself, would this decision be better for letterboxing or letterboxing.org? ...which is bigger?

CR

1.6k · January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:
A Letterbox cache is not a virtual. Virtual rules should not be enforced on anyone seeking a cache of this nature.

No, it's not a virtual. I only mention it as proof if[/i] there is a challenge to the find. Which is like going out and looking at the log and seeing if the person signed the log. The rest would be handled however the owner felt appropriate.

quote:
It would be nice if every cacher followed the theme of a cache. If they don't adhere to your theme are you going to delete there log? That could certainly sore the experience for new cachers of this sport.

What would you do if someone logged a find on your cache, but you knew they hadn't been there? What about if there is no proof they'd been there? There are discussions on deleting logs of those who don't comply with instructions.

I'm not about to go counter of a couple of hundred years of decorum for the sake of the newbies. I was once a newbie myself. I knew what was expected of me to play the game. (Mostly, anyway. )

quote:
As for using directions and compass work to find the final stage of a multi-cache, it's been done before. I don't see why you can't do that with yours.

I can and probably will in the future. But, by definition, that would be a hybrid.

"A letterbox is another form of treasure hunting using clues instead of coordinates. In some cases, however, a letterbox has coordinates, and the owner has made it a letterbox and a geocache."

It does allow for coordinate-less caches. I'm just looking for a way to seperate the hybrids from the "purer" form. It could be another cache type or an attribute of the hybrid. I don't know that one way is better than the other.

It would be fun to be able to count all off-site FPX's--even off-sites caches--in your profile without having to build your own homepage.

Maybe, I'm thinking of a "one-stop shopping" scenerio. ~shrug~

CR

9.1k · January 11, 2003

In my caching trips to my hometown of Rochester, NY, I've noticed a nice compromise with some of the many letterbox hybrid caches they have there. The letterbox remains "pure" and is listed on the letterbox site. Then on GC.com, the cache page says "this is a letterbox, but if you wish to trade, there is a cache container 30 feet away..." and a clue is given. Keep the two separate and nobody gets confused.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

January 11, 2003

I love the idea of a stamp in the cache to stamp my own log.

I can go along with letterboxing as long as the GPSr is used to get me close to the letterbox.

... oh, wait that makes it a log only cache...

-big smile-

so in a way a log only cache is a letterbox if it has a stamp in it to stamp your own log book, for your own records.... ...(almost) ... .. am I right?

..IF I get to use my toys to get within a few yards.

What makes this .com work is the logging of finds, forums and cache pages, ...AND soon to be maps...

...A N D..... an excuse to download stuff for our toys.... TOYS is the magic world... you are using one right now!

..OH! .speaking of ....are the maps working... if so how do I get a map up, to show my finds and unfinds?????

** The worst suggestion of a life time may be the catalyst to the best idea of the century, don't fail to listen to suggestions.

1.6k · January 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by poksal:
I can go along with letterboxing as long as the GPSr is used to get me close to the letterbox.

I guess you could project a waypoint if the clues say, "go 250 feet NNW."

That's not to mention a letterbox might bring you close to a cache!

Toys? You can still use your toys. If it's on this site, you could download it to your PDA!

CR

38.2k · January 11, 2003

I've found geocaches that had Letterbox-like clues at the end. The Coordinates weren't for the cache, but for a certain spot. From there you had to use a compass, or follow some clues to get to the cache.

It's not common, but It's done often enough.

"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant

January 11, 2003

If it helps, here's a link to our hybrid:

Silvercreek Trail Letterbox Hybrid

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=39576 on the geocaching site.

We set it up so that geocachers would find the initial geocache. In the geocache there are instructions to the letterbox (on take-away cards). The letterbox is optional but we've had approx. 3 cachers visit the letterbox. In order to encourage visits by geocachers, we don't insist on a stamped image - they can be creative and draw something or leave a finger print or a sticker. One cache team actually used a carved a eraser stamp, their first carving. Really nice job too. One team drew a picture and another left finger prints.

We also posted instructions on the LB site so that pure letterboxers could find this letterbox without going to the geocache. So far no pure letterboxers have visited.

Here's the link to the instructions on the LB site:

http://www.letterboxing.org/canada/silvercr.ht

---------------

I can't lie around and be lazy. I am a Thing-Finder, and when you're a Thing-Finder you don't have a minute to spare...The whole world is full of things, and somebody has to look for them.

-Pippi Longstocking

1.4k · January 12, 2003

I don't think a separate type is needed. Just use the hybrid type. My The Spider's Lair letterbox cache is only a "hybrid" in the sense that I do give parking coordinates, and a few people have traded TBs, WheresGeorge$, and geocoins. Otherwise, it's a traditional letterbox, with compass bearings, pace counting, and a stamp. It's also listed at Letterboxing.org.

2.6k · January 12, 2003

There is already a site for letterboxes what benifit would it be too make a pure letterbox here?

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

5.7k · January 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:
There is already a site for letterboxes what benifit would it be too make a pure letterbox here?

george

I agree with George here. There is already a place for this, why do you need two? Are we going to start having pure bookcrossing caches next?

Here is my idea for the proper mix of both. Have a traditional cache that you hide. In that cache is the traditional stuff, possibly including trade items. For the letterbox crowd, there would be instruction sheets on how to find the letterbox from the cache. The letterbox stamp would be optional as far as the geocaching.com find log is concerned. It's just there for the letterboxing enthusiasts. There you have it, the best of both worlds.

--Marky

"All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer with a backlit GPSr"

1.6k · January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by georgeandmary:
There is already a site for letterboxes what benifit would it be too make a pure letterbox here?

I've already stated the benefits of including pure letterboxes above. It would introduce more people to letterboxing and add to the variety of caches to hunt. Letterboxers who list their established boxes here will see an increase in acivity.

In looking into a few people profiles and the thread of personal stamps there are already folks into stamps and stampmaking--a nature mesh with letterboxing.

CR

1.6k · January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Marky:
Are we going to start having pure bookcrossing caches next?

There's such a thing as "pure bookcrossing caches?" Besides, we've come to the conclusion BookCrossing is a waste of time. Not single book we've released has been logged. We've released to the wild both in caches and the "normal" way. So we're not going to be bothered anymore. WE may still release books, but they probably won't be listed on bookcrossing.

quote:
Here is my idea for the proper mix of both. Have a traditional cache that you hide. In that cache is the traditional stuff, possibly including trade items. For the letterbox crowd, there would be instruction sheets on how to find the letterbox from the cache. The letterbox stamp would be optional as far as the geocaching.com find log is concerned. It's just there for the letterboxing enthusiasts. There you have it, the best of both worlds.

"...the best of both worlds." Hardly. While your scenerio is not out of the ordinary for letterboxes in that clues for a box can be found just about anywhere, it doesn't allow for listing boxes. That's the distinction.

Like a I said above, I think inclusion of pure letterboxes would benefit both crowds. I'm not saying all letterboxes should be listed here, that's up to the boxer. What I am saying is give a boxer the oportunity to list his box here and have a mechanism to distinguish his box from the hybrids. What's so wrong with that?

CR

January 13, 2003

Interesting discussion, here is my two cents worth.

Adding LB stuff to this site may increase awareness of LBing, but I wonder how much because GC.com already makes mention of LBing on the links page and in periodic discussion threads. The potential is to inform someone who hasnt looked at the links page and who doesnt read the boards.

My first thought was to treat LB "caches" the way benchmarks are treated, with their own area of the site. This would keep them seperate, but on this site. It would also put GC.com in "direct competition" with LB.com and may begin the downward slide that someone mentioned above.

The only practical issue I see is that it is yet another cache type. Which is fine, but I think as there are more types, there should be a way to filter the searches/nearest caches report to not show particular types.

Which brings me to the only real issue I see for or against adding "pure letterbox" caches; Effort. No matter how they are added to the site, it takes someone some amount of time to do it. THis is time taken away from something else.

So....oh nuts , that looks like four cents worth. Ok, Ill keep quiet on the next one.

WindChill

1.6k · January 13, 2003

Thanks for the input!

The effort involved, the way I'd like to see it implemented, is minumum. It'd be just another type of cache, or an attribute under hybrids. Either way, it's really just a way to seperate them from the other types.

I'd rather see it listed along with the other caches types. At least, I'd like to be able to download them with my queries like any other cache.

There is merit to having a seperate section for letterboxes as it would cause less confusion with newbies. But then there would be extra effort.

Well, unless they are all on the same database, but you only list caches on one side and LB's on the other. A simple tag would suffice. It would then be trivial to switch a cache to a letterbox.

CR

January 13, 2003

I enjoy letterboxing, although there are not many boxes in my area, but I have noticed that many letterboxing people do not like Geocachers at all. I have seen many more hostile attitudes than friendly attitudes when geocaching comes up in the lists. Although I would like to see more boxes in my area, I don't think that combining them would be a good idea. However I do like the unique markers like geocoins and geocards that some people make (sorta similar to letterboxing(?)). I have something like this now and will be making more soon...

Randy

January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:
I've found geocaches that had Letterbox-like clues at the end. The Coordinates weren't for the cache, but for a certain spot. From there you had to use a compass, or follow some clues to get to the cache.

It's not common, but It's done often enough.

_"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant_

Yup, they're generally called offset caches. I have caches of my own, and have done others, that use similar clues. Adding a stamp to the cache isn't a big step.

Plus as has been said before, it's your cache, so set it up however you want to. If someone placed a cache around here that had such clues, and required me to get a stamp and log book of my own to properly trade stamps and log the cache ... then that's what I'd do (in a heart beat). If I didn't want to take that effort or spend the money, then I wouldn't log the cache. I'd also fully support you're right to delete the logs of anyone who didn't fulfill the requirements.

I've also found, and created, caches where trading wasn't part of it. So, don't listen to those people who think that you have to be able to trade, or it's not a cache. It's all about hunt for the cache (either by GPS, or compass/landmark clues, or complex puzzles, or whatever neat idea the next person comes up with), not the trading.

I say go for it... in fact, do you mind if I borrow your idea? Might just set one up around here for the heck of it (now I need to buy TWO stamps!)

---------------------------------------

"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

---------------------------------------

9.4k · January 13, 2003

My opinion of the Letterboxing community is to leave well enough alone. The LbNA folks have their own rhyme and reason for their sport, and you're only asking for trouble if you want to create a "competing" web site with a different stance on things. Many old school Letterboxers have a certain covert view of their sport, where we try to be overt about what we're doing. It will exacerbate the attitudes they have for Geocaching.

If we were to make a new multicache type where the rules change from "take an item, leave an item" to "stamp the passbook," I would probably change the name to something like Cluechasing, so we don't confuse things. I do see some merit in having a type that doesn't require a GPS, though I admit the barrier to entry keeps a lot of "less desirables" from plundering caches. With the ever lowering cost of GPS units, however, this will not go on forever.

Initially when I created the site (in 2k) I approached the Letterboxing community with an idea to merge the two communities into one site, and was essentially told to p off. So you can imagine what would happen if I created a letterbox registry on this site. Not that I can't handle a few uppercuts now and again, but it's not worth the hassle.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

20.7k · January 13, 2003

Unless I misunderstand your proposal, caches like this are already allowed. They just don't have their own cache type. Take a look at this cache. It is one of my all-time favorites. While it does not include a stamp, if it did, it would meet my understanding of your idea.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.

5.9k · January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by WrongWayRandall:
I enjoy letterboxing, although there are not many boxes in my area, but I have noticed that many letterboxing people do not like Geocachers at all. I have seen many more hostile attitudes than friendly attitudes when geocaching comes up in the lists SNIP

Randy

You want hostile? Go over to the Ham heading and post a topic about how utterly pointless learning code is (for getting a ham license), (Some) Hams can be very hostile when it comes to that. Everybody’s got their own little world...

1.6k · January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:
...it's not worth the hassle.

Understood. Sometimes the new kid on the block gets no respect.

I could go along with a GPS-less type of cache with whatever the name you apply to it.

CR

38.2k · January 13, 2003

I plan on changing some of my geocaches into Letterbox hybrids. The way I will do it, is to have a standard geocache with the usual logbook and trade items. But in it I will also have a separate envelope with a Letterbox stamp and book (and a note explaining to Geocachers what it is).

The cache will be posted on the Geocaching website with the standard coordinates and it will be crossposted on the Letterboxing.org site using Letterbox type clues.

Letterboxers will have no idea it's also a Geocache until they find it. As far as they are concerned, it will be a pure Letterbox. The only way Geocachers will know its a Letterbox is by the hybrid icon. Other than that, it will be a pure geocache as far as geocachers are concerned.

"Paternalism is the greatist despotism" - Emmanual Kant

January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

You want hostile? Go over to the Ham heading and post a topic about how utterly pointless learning code is (for getting a ham license), (Some) Hams can be _very_ hostile when it comes to that. Everybody’s got their own little world...

I'm *so* glad you said 'some' there. As a fan of using Morse code (hence my user name) I've never been a fan of forcing anyone to learn for any other reason than to enjoy using the mode.

Anyway, I'm interested in the Letterboxing idea, but all the links I can find, for the UK that is, are for the ones on Dartmoor. A bit off my normal beaten track!

Anyone know of links for other UK Letterboxes please?

Oh, I might add a 'letterbox' type log/stamp to my caches (All one of them at the moment! And that one seems to be behind bars at present - See Bozer Box for the sorry story).

--... ...--

Morseman

1.4k · January 13, 2003

What's the difference between a pure letterbox and a letterbox hybrid? I've seen letterboxes listed on letterboxing.org that have coordinates posted for parking. I've seen letterbox "hybrids" on geocaching.com where the only coordinates are for parking, and there is nothing to trade - just a stamp. What's the difference?

It seems to me that when creating a "hybrid," one could lean very heavily in favor of one type or the other. Why not create a "pure" letterbox, and simply list it as a "hybrid?" The only concession might be the posting of parking coordinates.

January 13, 2003

If only the letterboxing.org site was more user friendly. It's the major site for letterboxing info so I've posted all of my letterboxes there but I much prefer the wesgarrison.us letterboxing site, unfortunatley I don't think people know about it. It's user friendly. I especially like the ability to edit my own letterbox pages. I encourage people to have a look. http://wesgarrison.us

---------------

I can't lie around and be lazy. I am a Thing-Finder, and when you're a Thing-Finder you don't have a minute to spare...The whole world is full of things, and somebody has to look for them.

-Pippi Longstocking

January 13, 2003

Personally, I like the idea of having the logs in my caches being a sort of colorful passport to those who come through. I think that would mean more to me than any trinkets that are in there. Though it is the hunt that is the treasure most of all. Overall, I like the idea. I might just make up a personal stamp to stamp the logs with along with my notes. Any comments?

"Not all who wander are lost..." -Tolkien

1.4k · January 13, 2003

You want hostile? Go over to the Ham heading and post a topic about how utterly pointless learning code is (for getting a ham license), (Some) Hams can be very hostile when it comes to that. Everybody’s got their own little world

dit dit I am quite proud of my CW capabilities Happy cahcing and 73 de W4JEF!

Jeff

http://www.StarsFellOnAlabama.com

http://www.NotAChance.com

1.6k · January 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by airman730:
I might just make up a personal stamp to stamp the logs with along with my notes. Any comments?

Quite a few of us do just that.

CR

Pure Letterboxes

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