Pantalaimon Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 So... I hid a cache recently, and I have a problem with the first find. Now, I don't want to get into specifics (although I know it won't take people long to reseach what I'm talking about) but I hid a cache where you have to do some research to find numbers to plug into several calculations to find the coordinates for the cache. (Make sense?) Well, the first finder didn't do the calculations, s/he just went to the parking coordinates and looked around within the distance I indicated on the web page. Well, to me, this defeats the whole purpose of the cache. I wanted people to HAVE to do the calculations. I suppose I could have hidden it better, or in a more difficult spot, or put the coordinates on the web page further away, but that would have defeated the purpose for me. I wanted a semi-hard cache to figure out where the coords are, but an easy cache to find once you had the coords. Now I'm disillusioned. Advice? (Besides "Quit whining sissy" or "It's your own fault" or "I blame the Geocaching lord.") Thanks. Pan Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am. Quote Link to comment
King Pellinore Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 This is always a problem with this sort of thing. If someone manages to find a way around your diabolical puzzle, so be it. Either chalk it up to thier genius-outside-the-box thinking, or learn from it and tweak your cache so that particular tactic won't work. You can make something fool-proof, but sooner or later someone will come up with a better fool. King Pellinore Quote Link to comment
+Kodak's4 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Pantalaimon:So... I hid a cache recently, and I have a problem with the first find. Now, I don't want to get into specifics (although I know it won't take people long to reseach what I'm talking about) but I hid a cache where you have to do some research to find numbers to plug into several calculations to find the coordinates for the cache. (Make sense?) Well, the first finder didn't do the calculations, s/he just went to the parking coordinates and looked around within the distance I indicated on the web page. Well, to me, this defeats the whole purpose of the cache. I wanted people to HAVE to do the calculations. I suppose I could have hidden it better, or in a more difficult spot, or put the coordinates on the web page further away, but that would have defeated the purpose for me. I wanted a semi-hard cache to figure out where the coords are, but an easy cache to find once you had the coords. Now I'm disillusioned. Advice? (Besides "Quit whining sissy" or "It's your own fault" or "I blame the Geocaching lord.") Thanks. Pan Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am. I've hidden several puzzle caches. On every one, people have found them using techniques other than what I envisioned when I designed the puzzle. Rather than thinking of this as a problem to be solved, I view it as part of the fun. Human ingenuity is amazing. It's delightful to me that people think of creative ways of solving problems that I hadn't even dreamed of. There was a local cache which required solving a puzzle that involved several equations to get the coordinates. The design of the equations constrained the possible solutions. I wrote a little (very little) computer program that used brute force to calculate all the possible solutions and emit them in a .loc file that I loaded into ExpertGPS. I looked at the map, and realized that half of them were in the water. Several more were in clearly implausible locations (e.g. middle of the freeway). In the end, there were only two really likely candidates. There's NO WAY to make people do the calculations. If they can do some of the calculations and guess, they may do that. Or, as you observed, they may just ignore all that work and see if they can find it by guessing, as they did. It's all part of the game between hiders and seekers. If you make the puzzle hard enough, or even just too tedious, people will try to find a way around rather than through. The problem lies with your own expectations. I don't think you're whining, and I don't think you're a sissy. I just think that if you expect that people will always attack the problem the way you envisioned, you're working counter to a rather delighful aspect of human nature and you're pretty much guaranteed to be disappointed. Quote Link to comment
+Fattuhr Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Remove the parking coordinates from the cache page, and they will have to figure it out. My wife says put a coordinate on it and I'll find it. Quote Link to comment
King Pellinore Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 This is a common problem. I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. Either chalk it up to the other guy's genius-outside-the-box thinking and let it be, or use the info to tweak your cache so that his particular tactic won't work anymore. you can try to make it fool-proof, but sooner or later someone will come along with a better fool King Pellinore Quote Link to comment
+Mopar Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Seriously, from reading his log, it sounds like he solved part of your puzzle, enough to limit his search. Only way around that I can see is to either rework the puzzle so you need to solve all of it to get any meaningful results, and/or do away with the parking co-ordinates. I think easy caches should have some way of showing the best parking, but when you get up to a 4 star dificulty, where to park is just part of solving the puzzle, in my book. Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon. Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 So, I found out that the finder actually DID do alot of the work... and then made some educated guesses on the rest. Thanks for all your advice, you were all right, and the finder definitely deserved the find. Now, how do I lock this topic? Pan Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am. Quote Link to comment
+Criminal Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 OK, it took me so long to compose this that there are plenty of good responses already. But: I wouldn’t call it whining at all. It’s your cache and you set the rules for it. However, it was found even if the method wasn’t what you wanted. Now this part is only me, I’m not criticizing you in any way; I wouldn’t have even hunted it. If I were in the area anyway and wanted to look for it, I would have done the same as the finder mentioned. I would use my geo-skills to try to deduce where you had hidden the cache. That’s me, I hate math or homework caches. I pretty much aced English 101, I CLEP’d my math, but computations are pure agony for me. (I do happen to find the concepts of math intriguing, but still have a mental block about it.) Many caches like yours offer an alternate way to find the container without doing the math, this person wasn’t waiting for you to provide one. Unfortunately, now it’s been advertised that it can be done w/o math, that may start a trend. I have a multi cache on a paved trail; it’s 95,000 inches (1.5 miles) from the first container to the second, final cache container. My intention was that people would ride their bike from point A to B, many just drive the five miles around the long way instead. I’m in no way “disillusioned” by that though, to each his own. Don't sweat it, don't change it. http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I agree with the King. It happens and its a bummer when you work so hard and people don't jump through all of the hoops. Use it as a learning experience for your next cache. Also, remember that people sometimes say they found something an easier way, when they didn't. When I initially hid my Great Caesar's Ghost Cipher, a local cacher bragged that he was able to find it without deciphering all the clues and going to the prelim locations. I later found out that he phoned another local who spilled the beans on the final location. Quote Link to comment
King Pellinore Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 sorry about the duplicates. I can't seem to delete them though. . . King Pellinore Quote Link to comment
Curious George Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 This is similar to a recent thread about bogus starting co-ordinates. I stronlgy feel that we need a separate category for these puzzle type of caches. If you are required to post a starting co-ordinate which is within a certain distance of the cache you will very likely give away too much information. How about it admin?? Quote Link to comment
mortonfox Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I've gone directly to the last stage of a multicache and just combed the area for it. I didn't think that was any easier than actually going through all the stages. If someone finds it, by whatever means and even if it was accidental, then it's a find. Maybe hiding it further from the parking lot would reduce the likelihood of guessing the cache's location. Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Curious George:...If you are required to post a starting co-ordinate which is within a certain distance of the cache you will very likely give away too much information... I think it depends on how far away is 'close enough'. Certainly, coordinates that are a mile away don't give away the location. Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again. Quote Link to comment
+GeoCraig Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I think that if you can find the cache by another approach, more power to you. If someone hiked to a cache from a different trailhead because it was easier-more interesting-etc., it wouldn't be an issue. So why worry if someone can name that tune quicker that you had planned. Sometimes the best geocaching equipment is our brainns. Quote Link to comment
BassoonPilot Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I've done several caches that involved finding clues or solving puzzles where it became clear early on that one didn't need to solve all the elements to figure out where the cache is. Sometimes I finished all the stages/problems; sometimes I went directly to the cache. I haven't looked at your cache page yet, but from this thread it appears to be pretty clear that you simply provided too much information. So, you learned a few things with this cache; learning experiences are good. Quote Link to comment
+OzzieSan Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 One of the first things I do is look for alternate solutions to reach the cache location. As mentioned above there is often times more than one way to skin a cat (or any other critter that will hold still long enough). I wouldnt consider it "Defeating the Point". I expect your point was for folks to seek and find it? I can see your frustration after spending the time to provide the puzzle. But finding alternate solutions to a problem allows for the building of better mouse traps (and geocaches). [This message was edited by Team 5-oh! on February 12, 2003 at 04:59 PM.] Quote Link to comment
+evergreenhiker! Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 I did a local cache in my area that required breaking codes...Pine Lake Cypher I think it was called. Anyway, I got to the last part and just couldn't get the code so I just figured out the coords by doing some sort of back calculation if you will. Well, the cache owner caught on to this and changed the cache description so future cachers wouldn't be able to do this. Quote Link to comment
+Team Teuton Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 I had a similar, yet different problem on the only cache I have hidden. It's an eight stage multi which has been found by several different people. One guy logged it as found (his first find), but said my numbers are off. He says he found it with the aid of another cacher who has already logged it. I can see maybe guessing where the final location is (I'm sure that's how his friend originally found it, he lives very close to the cache, and also seemed a bit mathematically challenged) But to post a log saying the numbers are bad after three other people have found it seems a bit opaque. I fussed at him in the log, and one of the other finders (a math teacher) was kind enough to post a note supporting my calculations, so I guess that's about all I can do. I've been going in circles my whole life. May as well make a hobby of it. Quote Link to comment
+martinp13 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Pantalaimon:I wanted a semi-hard cache to figure out where the coords are, but an easy cache to find once you had the coords. Well, this time you didn't do that. But next time you will! _____________________________________________________ > Martin (Magellan 330) Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo! Quote Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 quote:Well, this time you didn't do that. But next time you will! I've already begun preparations on my next geocache. I'm going to have it up and running ASAP. It's going to be sub-titled, "The World's Hardest Geocache." Pan Cachito ergo sum. I Geocache, therefore I am. Quote Link to comment
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