Challenge cache FTF question

6.8k · February 10

Yes, I know FTF is a side game with no rules, but I'm just wondering what the general feeling is about this situation...

Last week a series of water-access kayaking caches was published, including a challenge cache amongst them. To date, one person has signed the challenge cache's logbook but doesn't yet qualify for the challenge so they posted a WN. Assuming the weather forecast holds, my plan is to hit the water with my kayak on Monday morning before the wind picks up and, if I'm able to reach, find and sign the challenge cache, will be able to log a find as I already qualify.

Assuming the other cacher, who is currently a long way short of qualifying, eventually does so and changes their WN to a find, who is FTF? The first name in the logbook or the first online find?

February 10

I am going to say whoever dares to write "thanks for the FTF!" in their log first. I lost an FTF that way once.

4.5k · February 10

Yes, someone has already actually found the physical container. However, and in my opinion, the first person that meets the cache's qualifications and signs the physical log is the actual first finder.

Edited February 10 by Mudfrog
Changed up my whole reply as it was wrong...

February 10

In this case, he was first to sign the log but doesn't qualify for a "found it"......yet. So FTF is still up for grabs.

This exact scenario happened to me about 10 years ago. I was out of state when challenge cache published. A local signed log, but even said they didn't qualify for a find. Got home found it next.

Of course others will say he signed the log first.

1.4k · February 10

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Yes, I know FTF is a side game with no rules, but I'm just wondering what the general feeling is about this situation...

Last week a series of water-access kayaking caches was published, including a challenge cache amongst them. To date, one person has signed the challenge cache's logbook but doesn't yet qualify for the challenge so they posted a WN. Assuming the weather forecast holds, my plan is to hit the water with my kayak on Monday morning before the wind picks up and, if I'm able to reach, find and sign the challenge cache, will be able to log a find as I already qualify.

Assuming the other cacher, who is currently a long way short of qualifying, eventually does so and changes their WN to a find, who is FTF? The first name in the logbook or the first online find?

I would say that you are in a very strong position to claim an FTF. I know that I would in your situation. My logic here is that for Challenge caches, the FTF goes to the one who first has both the challenge fulfilled and signed the physical log.

1.9k · February 10

4 hours ago, baer2006 said:

My logic here is that for Challenge caches, the FTF goes to the one who first has both the challenge fulfilled and signed the physical log.

5 hours ago, SW00P said:

In this case, he was first to sign the log but doesn't qualify for a "found it"......yet. So FTF is still up for grabs.

6 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

However, and in my opinion, the first person that meets the cache's qualifications and signs the physical log is the actual first finder.

I agree with all of the above - no legit 'found it' has been posted yet - so the first to meet both requirements can claim FTF. Anyone who logs a find presently without meeting the challenge requirements would have their log deleted by the CO (I'm pretty sure!).....

Edited February 10 by lee737

1.9k · February 10

7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Assuming the other cacher, who is currently a long way short of qualifying, eventually does so and changes their WN to a find, who is FTF? The first name in the logbook or the first online find?

Unless they do a bunch of kayaking before someone else signs the log (and meets the challenge), they wouldn't be the rightful FTF IMO.

6.1k · February 10

7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

who is FTF?

IMO you. If you care about such things I would say in your find note that you were the first qualified finder, then if the other cacher subsequently changes their log to a find then it will be clear why you have "claimed" it.

2k · February 10

It doesn't matter. Really. Anybody can claim FTF on any cache, even if it's been signed 100 times. Does it make them FTF? Of course not. Since FTF isn't a real thing, with no rules, add it to your list of FTFs if you want. So can the person who signed first. You can both claim FTF in yours logs and the world will still turn.

Who is FTF on a virtual? The first person to visit the site, or the first person to email answers to the CO, or the first person to post a Found log? FTF on a virtual isn't verifiable either. Same with earthcaches.

11.6k · February 10

14 hours ago, TheLimeCat said:

I am going to say whoever dares to write "thanks for the FTF!" in their log first. I lost an FTF that way once.

When I was new to Geocaching, I quickly learned not to use the word "first" any context in my online logs. The power users found a new cache, then I logged that this was the first cache I hunted today. Almost got my head bit off for posting that. Even now, even in the case of finding it before everyone else finds it (we often see the insistance that "there is no such thing"), I may log the time of the find, the blank log, etc. So, yeah, the "thanks for FTF" log is then still available.

Edited February 10 by kunarion

1.7k · February 10

20 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Assuming the other cacher, who is currently a long way short of qualifying, eventually does so and changes their WN to a find, who is FTF? The first name in the logbook or the first online find?

When I sign a challenge that I do not yet qualify for, I log a WN. I do NOT go back and change that log later - I log a separate Find log on the date I actually qualify, or figure out that I qualify as I review caches that I have signed before fulfilling the challenge.

I realize this may confuse matters if the cache is missing or in need of maintenance when I claim my find, and other cachers seeking it are disappointed when they can't find it or sign it, but I make clear in my find log that I signed the log some time ago and only now qualify to log it as a Find.

So, Jeff, you would be the First to Find, by virtue of signing the logsheet AND fulfilling the challenge, BOTH required to claim a find on a challenge cache.

Edited February 10 by CAVinoGal
typo corrections

13.7k · February 10

18 hours ago, TheLimeCat said:

I am going to say whoever dares to write "thanks for the FTF!" in their log first. I lost an FTF that way once.

:laughing:

I headed to a nearby state for a FTF after a snowstorm, knowing the CO was always around to meet the FTF.

Got a notification that the cache was FTF, by a young man that most knew rode a bicycle.

I accessed the container and the cash/gift card maze puzzle to get to the log just as the CO arrived. No name there but mine.

Maybe he thought "calling" FTF gave him a head start. Guessing there was an embarrassed young man after my log and pics...

6.8k · February 10

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm not that fussed about FTFs although they're nice when they happen, particularly if it's an awesome cache as well. I only just recently compiled a list of them, using the tools on Project GC, and it seems I've had 43 out of 1789 finds over nearly 11 years. My more recent ones have generally been at least a day after publication and several days (in one instance 6 months) before the next finder comes along, such is the nature of FTF "races" around here nowadays.

If I do succeed in getting my name in the challenge cache logbook tomorrow, I'm thinking "first to complete the challenge" might be better wording than "first to find". Of course, having raised all this, the most likely outcome will probably be an unambiguous "first to DNF".

6 hours ago, ChileHead said:

Who is FTF on a virtual? The first person to visit the site, or the first person to email answers to the CO, or the first person to post a Found log? FTF on a virtual isn't verifiable either.

On my own new virtual, published three weeks ago, a group of three claimed joint FTF the day after publication and no one has logged it or sent any answers since, so it's pretty clear-cut. Likewise on the only virtual I've been FTF on, when it was almost a month before the second finder came along, and on the only EC I've been FTF it was six weeks before the next finder.

2.9k · February 11

11 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

I do NOT go back and change that log later - I log a separate Find log on the date I actually qualify, or figure out that I qualify as I review caches that I have signed before fulfilling the challenge.

We do this kind of cheating a lot in Finland. This kind of cheating is common with virtuals and earth caches too. It lets the finder to use practically any date to log the find. I have sometimes notified in my note to a challenge cache visit that I will check if the challenge is fulfilled later, just to delay the find to adjust it according to my own needs.

1.7k · February 11

8 hours ago, arisoft said:

20 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

I do NOT go back and change that log later - I log a separate Find log on the date I actually qualify, or figure out that I qualify as I review caches that I have signed before fulfilling the challenge.

We do this kind of cheating a lot in Finland. This kind of cheating is common with virtuals and earth caches too. It lets the finder to use practically any date to log the find. I have sometimes notified in my note to a challenge cache visit that I will check if the challenge is fulfilled later, just to delay the find to adjust it according to my own needs.

Cheating?!? Some may use it as I highlighted in your response, to "fudge" the date of the find. As far as MY logging goes, I log the challenge as a Find when I realize I have completed it, not to give me a find on a specific date. And Earthcaches and Virtuals, I log on the day we were at the location, but there may be a delay as I send in the answers before I actually log it; I'll backdate it to the day we were there. I like my caching records to be as accurate as I can make them, and we typically will log a timestamp, and Find # for each smilie. So, I don't consider logging a challenge as a find, separate from my write note, as "cheating".

2.9k · February 11

42 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

So, I don't consider logging a challenge as a find, separate from my write note, as "cheating".

Here in Finland, everybody knows that it is cheating, and almost everyone does it without hesitation. This way to adjust find dates freely is spreading also to other cache types. I am planning to write a note to some traditional cache telling that I may have visited the cache today but I will log it found later when I am sure that I visited the cache. This date adjustusting is just a joke here. This happened after some new challenges that required more cheating than usually.

Many years ago Jeremy Irish visited MEGA Finland 2012 and I was there listening when he was on stage. One question the audience asked him was what date a challenge cache should be logged found. Jeremy was surprised by the question and seemed to find the question somewhat strange. In his opinion, it was quite simple. The date when cache has been visited is recorded in the logbook, and it can be logged online when the challenge is fullfilled. He did not bring up the idea that the cache could be logged as found on a day other than the day it was found.

The guidelines do not mention dates at all. There is no need to write a date in the logbook when you sign the cache, and there is no date that you should use when logging the find online. Only events are forced to the first date of the event.

1.7k · February 11

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

This way to adjust find dates freely is spreading also to other cache types

Ahhh, but that's really not what I am doing, I'm just claiming the find when I fulfill the challenge. And we DO date the logsheet on regular caches when we sign it (if there's room) and claim it on the day we find it. Others may play it differently, and apparently in Finland it's common practice to adjust dates. All this is getting a bit off-topic though, and I'm done defending the way I play challenges.

Edited February 11 by CAVinoGal

2.9k · February 11

26 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

Ahhh, but that's really not what I am doing, I'm just claiming the find when I fulfill the challenge.

I know that many players do this. I used the real date when I found the cache until I noticed that it makes me harder situation that others who selected the date arbitrarely depending on they needs. Many challenge checkers do not tell you the date you completed the challenge. Now you may say that "today I found that I have completed the challenge" :cool: .

Edited February 11 by arisoft

15.3k · February 11

I use the real date when I found a cache in all my online logs. But I don't "pre-sign" challenge caches either.

February 12

7 hours ago, niraD said:

I use the real date when I found a cache in all my online logs. But I don't "pre-sign" challenge caches either.

As a challenge addict I'll say there is nothing more frustrating to be working for years on a challenge only to have it archived. So I now sign before starting.

I too use the date qualified as the date found. This method does skew the stats a lot not that it bothers me. Things like cache to cache distances specially when the cache is on the other side of the country gets affected. My most states in a day was actually 4 but my 5th being my home state for a challenge to find 4 states in a day.

So I have mixed emotions on what to do. I think the day found would be more appropriate but I'm committed at this point I feel. Now if GS had created a new cace type them we could have a different log type and then the issue goes away. Sorry had to bring it up.

My sort of cheating is I claim the find on the day I check, if I don't qualify immediately. I then only check on days I need if I need a find. The problem is sometimes I forget to do this and then have to wait a year.

February 12

To the OP

I agree with a previous poster. For challenges FTF is first to sign and that occurs when you qualify.

Congratulations of you get it pretty had to get in my expirience. Only have two and they were really easy.

6.8k · February 12

3 hours ago, MNTA said:

I agree with a previous poster. For challenges FTF is first to sign and that occurs when you qualify.

So I'm curious now, what happens if the first to sign never qualifies?

As for today, the weather forecast held up, with it probably the best day for kayaking this summer with little wind and not too much heat and humidity. The challenge cache, number 13 in the series, had the Tree Climb attribute and I was a little dubious about whether I'd be able to reach it. But I managed, just, and signed the log after rescuing my pen from the water after it dropped in while I was climbing into position. But it didn't end there, as I was trying to get back onto my kayak, the boggy bottom under my foot gave way and I ended up waist deep in the water, giving my GPSr and phone a saltwater dunking. Both survived, fortunately.

So now I guess I'm the first to complete the challenge, although not the first name in the log, and that's essentially what I wrote online. I think I'll just leave it at that.

Edited February 12 by barefootjeff

1.9k · February 12

5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

So I'm curious now, what happens if the first to sign never qualifies?

They never claim a find. I think you're over thinking this one now Jeff....

Revel in your FTF mate! We recognise you as the rightful claimant.....

2.9k · February 12

18 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

So I'm curious now, what happens if the first to sign never qualifies?

It has happened with other physical cache types that FTF finder never logs online. There are some exceptional players who signs the logbook only. In this case the STF finder may only comment about the FTF find they found from the logboook. Challenge checker are not able to tell reliably whether the FTF finder qualifies or not, because the data may not be updated.

6.8k · February 12

36 minutes ago, lee737 said:

They never claim a find. I think you're over thinking this one now Jeff....

Revel in your FTF mate! We recognise you as the rightful claimant.....

Thanks mate. I'm too tired and stiff to do much now other than reflect on the day's adventure and sip a glass of shiraz.

1.9k · February 12

16 minutes ago, arisoft said:

Challenge checker are not able to tell reliably whether the FTF finder qualifies or not, because the data may not be updated.

It's all moot though isn't it - the first-to-sign hasn't claimed a find, let alone FTF.....

1.9k · February 12

9 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Thanks mate. I'm too tired and stiff to do much now other than reflect on the day's adventure and sip a glass of shiraz.

I needed a few shiraz's (of the sparkling variety) after hiding that trail, I can assure you!

1.7k · February 12

6 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

So now I guess I'm the first to complete the challenge, although not the first name in the log, and that's essentially what I wrote online. I think I'll just leave it at that.

You are the first to log a FIND on the cache page - and if you want Project-GC to tally it as a First to Find, just add the FTF in brackets or parentheses and claim it. Don't overthink it, you got it!!

9k · February 12

"Don't overthink it" I think is paramount. FTF is too vague. Everyone has different ideas and personal etiquette. Just define what you're "first" off.

Someone who signed the log first might claim "first to sign". Someone who posted the log first might claim "first to log" if they were with other friends (happens in events a lot :P). You could claim ftf by "first to solve the puzzle AND sign the sheet" if the solution was determined by a loophole, eg. Or "first to find after publish" (against beta-tester ftfs). And so "first to sign AND qualify" is a perfectly legitimately FTF claim, IMO, even if someone else logs later saying they were first to sign the log sheet. There's no conflict - they were first to sign the log sheet, go on them. You were first to qualify as well. Good on you.

Who has rights to the "FTF" reward? There is no reward.

11 hours ago, MNTA said:

I too use the date qualified as the date found. This method does skew the stats a lot not that it bothers me. Things like cache to cache distances specially when the cache is on the other side of the country gets affected.

This is why I use a trackable now for a more accurate distance-traveled. Much easier to make adjustments to be more accurate, and can include visits to non-find geocaches as well, and owner visits.

11 hours ago, MNTA said:

I claim the find on the day I check, if I don't qualify immediately. I then only check on days I need if I need a find. The problem is sometimes I forget to do this and then have to wait a year.

IMO there are 3 possible dates to log the find on for challenges, and I go with the latest date of the three, while the first is the 'cleanest' find.

1. Date the log was signed (permitted if already qualified)

2. Date qualified (if the log was signed before qualification)

3. Date qualification was determined (exception case, least preferable - eg, signed years ago, forgot, re-checked today and now qualify, but no idea when; so log it today, as that's more preferable than 'years ago')

But per the OP, yeah, just clarify what you're "claiming" first of. Then there's no determinable conflict or doubt.

Challenge cache FTF question

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Join the conversation