Is cache adoption a legal transfer of property?

[+djwhouse]

I love placing caches in the areas to help support Megas. I build fairly expensive ($200 plus) electronic caches. I think this is good for geocaching.

 

I sent several caches to a Mega organizer, not for their personal usage, but to put out in support of a Mega. After placement, I adopted the cache to Mega organizer so at least they get some favorite points for their troubles in managing the cache. A few years later I'd like to donate the cache to another cacher, to place around another Mega. Sounds good for geocaching, right! 

 

The Mega organizer, claims the cache is 'his property' and refuses to respect my wishes! I don't recall any agreement to transfer my property to him in the adoption process. I assume GCHQ would not get in the loop to transfer my owership to the adopter, correct??

 

Signed,

Wanting to up the game everywhere

[+Max and 99]

I would assume the geocache is now his unless there was an  arrangement made for it to be returned to you. 

The way I read your post is that you gave him a gift and he wants to keep it.

[+GeoTrekker26]

2 hours ago, djwhouse said:

No, I had him adopt it.  I get what you are saying, but I didn't see any 'and they own your cache'.  So I call the police... I can prove it is mine... there is no document transferring private ownership of my property. I guess when someone is a greedy steward of your cache, these things get complex.

That seems unnecessarily harsh. You mention there is no documentation of the transfer. What ownership document do you have?

[+barefootjeff]

Technically (and perhaps legally) speaking, I guess adoption is really only transferring ownership of the listing, but since the new owner is responsible for maintaining the container and its contents, I'm pretty sure the expectation, barring anything said between the parties at the time of adoption, would be that ownership of the container is also transferred. I've adopted three caches, one was missing at the time but the other two, an ammo can and a small themed treasure chest, I would consider to be now mine and would be surprised if the original owner wanted them back (although I wouldn't make any fuss about it if they did). If they were to become damaged or go missing and need replacement, I'd certainly consider it my responsibility to pay for that replacement, just as I would for any of the caches I've created myself.

[+Jayeffel]

I do not see any clarifying info under Help, but I would assume that Adoption of the cache entails transfer of maintenance and the physical contents as well; the cache as an entity is the property of the one listed as CO.

 

One cacher transfer all parts of the cache to the other, be cumbersome accountability wise to have a cache maintained by one and owned by another. 

 

[+djwhouse]

5 hours ago, GeoTrekker26 said:

That seems unnecessarily harsh. You mention there is no documentation of the transfer. What ownership document do you have?

I didn't mean to be harsh.  I have multiple videos of me building it, my name is on the cover of the cache, the pcbs that I designed, built and assembled have my name on it.  It was my cache when release in the wild, so the logs are to me. It clearly is/was my property, and it was clearly adopted to a new CO. 

[+djwhouse]

2 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

Technically (and perhaps legally) speaking, I guess adoption is really only transferring ownership of the listing, but since the new owner is responsible for maintaining the container and its contents, I'm pretty sure the expectation, barring anything said between the parties at the time of adoption, would be that ownership of the container is also transferred.

That is helpful. I get the expectation by the adopter. If WVTim sends me a great cache to put out for a nearby Mega, and after two years he requests me to send it on to xyz cacher to put out at a new mega, I would jump at the opportunity to send out the cache out of respect for the cacher, the fact that I didn't put in the 50 hours of labor to build it. I guess that's just me. 

 

Legally, there was no transfer. If I made the cache out of a VW Beetle (there are some), if it was adopted, I don't send the Title of the car to the adopter. 

 

What I see here is a situation that is not really addressed in the adoption process. If I and others want to continue to up the geocaching game, expensive (hours and/or $) caches that can be sent around the world, and would really add to the game, are snuffed out. 

 

I would state, if the cache is commissioned by someone (i.e. they request you build it for them), that is clearly and solely their cache. If you  have a cache that is set out, and later adopt it out to ensure maintenance, there is no legal transfer. Were not talking about a bison tube here.

 

The adoption rules, could show this in some way perhaps to encourage collaborations and healthy cache placements around the world.  Maybe the simple solution is for the legal and original owner having the right to re-adopt the cache.

 

It seems the consensus is 'It's mine, you gave it to me'. I should just admit defeat. No more Mega placements. Thanks for the dialogue all.

[+kunarion]

2 hours ago, djwhouse said:

It seems the consensus is 'It's mine, you gave it to me'. I should just admit defeat. No more Mega placements. Thanks for the dialogue all.

 

Don't get me started on the wheeling and dealing of Mega Caches.  Just look at how a box full of Geocoins is sucked into a black hole at a Mega, and you know there are serious problems.  Bunch of things that happen at "Megas" make me feel all icky.  

 

But I have some notes:

 

When adopting a cache, the listing is what gets adopted, not the location and not the container.  It's a database thing.

Is the cache on land that you own? That makes a difference, because you could ban someone or everyone from entering your land.

 

The new owner can adopt the cache listing to another cacher, and then the new owner may archive it at his whim, even remove the whole thing. If there's a serious contention about the listing, it might be unlisted (archived) by HQ. In fact, this would be a great issue to ask HQ, instead of on this Forum. I'm sure it has come up.

 

But about the adoption thing, there's the expectation that the current owner has washed his hands of it. If I have someone adopt my cache, my intent would be that I'm no longer responsible for it, have no claim to it, it's now entirely someone else's problem. I'd be upset if everyone then insisted that being the original builder of the thing, that I remain the legal owner will all the responsibilities.  That if it's broken and now trash, I'm being required to come haul it away.

 

If it was a Geocoin, you "adopt" it on the website in almost exactly the same way as with a cache.  There is a separate thing, called "The Collection" where you might give a coin to a cacher, yet retain ownership.  Adoption of a Geocoin transfers ownership.  But in that case, the previous owner received cash or trade, or at least a hearty thank you.  The previous owner has no claim to ownership after a Geocoin adoption, but it's good etiquette to retain all the previous logs, show how and when it changed hands, and show who now owns it.  The idea is to make it so that everyone knows the deal.

 

The basic test of who has ownership of property is who can sell it. The current owner has the paperwork that shows it was adopted to him.  Sure just the listing, but that's the paperwork we see. Who has been repairing, maintaining the cache all this time? Is there any other agreement or any text or a log that shows that it's a conditional gift? Does the adoption log have text like “temporarily transferring this for the Mega, I will have it adopted back to me at a later date”? Clear expectations are most important.

 

So, about the OP's “call the police” idea. What happens if a cache after adoption is deemed a “bomb”, and someone calls the authorities, and there are charges and fees and sapinas? It would be unfair for someone who does not own the thing to get all the grief, or even partial grief. Would the OP step up in that case and claim full responsibility?

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by kunarion

[+Max and 99]

First of all, I would like to say, what an incredible cache design!! That is wonderful!

1 hour ago, djwhouse said:

Maybe the simple solution is for the legal and original owner having the right to re-adopt the cache.

This conflicts with one of your statements in the original post, about allowing the adopter to keep the favorite points. Once you adopt it back, all the favorite points go to you.

In addition, I think this is a very bad idea. Reminds me of that phrase I learned in elementary school: "No take-backs!"

 

 

 

 

[+kunarion]

30 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I think this is a very bad idea. Reminds me of that phrase I learned in elementary school: "No take-backs!"

 

In the case of an expensive electronic showpiece, I would have a contract signed by all parties stating the agreement.

At the very least, I'd contact HQ beforehand and ask about this conditional/temporary adoption that reverts back to me at some defined date after the Mega.  But that's weird with a lot of paperwork.  Maybe look into simpler plans.

 

The OP's story is that this was a complete surprise.  The take-away here is to lay out the terms clearly in advance.  Or don't mess with "Adoption" at all:

Edit whatever name you like into the cache page as "Placed By", such as the Mega name.  It remains your cache, nice and tidy.

The Mega people can put it on their watch list.

If that's unacceptable to the Mega Owners, that's a red flag, cancel the offer.

"Favorites", as Max and 99 pointed out, are not so great a compensation in this case.

 

Wouldn't ya love to know the Mega Owners' side of this story?  

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by kunarion

[+TriciaG]

If you adopt a child, you don't expect the original parent to ask for the child back.

I agree with Ku - in future, clearly lay out and agree on expectations beforehand.

[+kunarion]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:44 AM, djwhouse said:

 

 

I found one of these in Rome! (Georgia)

It was very cool.  It had phrases to unscramble and write out into instructions.  And there was one word I could not understand.  "*Mmph*"...  What's *Mmph*?!  There's a time limit, and I went right down to the wire on the time limit.  I finally decided what the word is, and solved it on the first try.  Which is good, because if you start over, the puzzle changes.

It was at outdoor tables at a coffee shop, and fortunately I was the only one there.  OTOH, everyone could have helped me figure it out.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by kunarion

[+cerberus1]

16 hours ago, djwhouse said:

I love placing caches in the areas to help support Megas. I build fairly expensive ($200 plus) electronic caches. I think this is good for geocaching.

I sent several caches to a Mega organizer, not for their personal usage, but to put out in support of a Mega. After placement, I adopted the cache to Mega organizer so at least they get some favorite points for their troubles in managing the cache. A few years later I'd like to donate the cache to another cacher, to place around another Mega. Sounds good for geocaching, right! 

The Mega organizer, claims the cache is 'his property' and refuses to respect my wishes! I don't recall any agreement to transfer my property to him in the adoption process. I assume GCHQ would not get in the loop to transfer my owership to the adopter, correct??

 

Favorite points stay with the cache.  It's not the "owner" people are all giggly about.  In fact, some of the worst people have awesome caches... 

I'd guess unless you made an agreement before any "adoption" process, you're SOL or so outta luck.

I get mails often about a cache we still have, a huge rural mailbox around 30' up a tree, asking what my future plans for it are. 

  - It may be just me, but that huge mailbox goes with it or it isn't the same cache adopted out...

[+JL_HSTRE]

I expect any cache I adopt includes a transfer of listing and container (obviously, the container is sometimes missing at time of adoption).

 

Why adopt a cache at all if the original CO is entitled to come back later any time they want and take the container?

 

If I place a replace a container for a cache I don't own (let's assume with permission) am I entitled to reclaim the replacement container any time I want? After all, my log only says I replaced the container, not anything about giving ownership of the container to the CO!

 

If adopting a cache doesn't transfer container ownership what would? Do you expect a signed deed?

 

It's an adoption, not a lease.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by JL_HSTRE
Typo

[+GeoElmo6000]

21 hours ago, djwhouse said:

I love placing caches in the areas to help support Megas. I build fairly expensive ($200 plus) electronic caches. I think this is good for geocaching.

 

I sent several caches to a Mega organizer, not for their personal usage, but to put out in support of a Mega. After placement, I adopted the cache to Mega organizer so at least they get some favorite points for their troubles in managing the cache. A few years later I'd like to donate the cache to another cacher, to place around another Mega. Sounds good for geocaching, right! 

 

The Mega organizer, claims the cache is 'his property' and refuses to respect my wishes! I don't recall any agreement to transfer my property to him in the adoption process. I assume GCHQ would not get in the loop to transfer my owership to the adopter, correct??

 

Signed,

Wanting to up the game everywhere

 

You lost all claim to the cache when you adopted it out to the mega organizer.  That was nice of you to do, but now it's their cache.

 

If they archived the cache you could ask them if they'd be willing to give you the cache container back to reuse, but I don't think they have any obligation to do so.

[+arisoft]

There is a good reason for this kind of disputes.

For the transferring party, the adoption process is about the listing only

But for the receiving party it is about ownership of the physical cache

I think that the arbitrator (Groudspeak) may be legally responsible for damages caused by ambiguities in the contract terms.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by arisoft

[+MNTA]

Try this tact.

 

As most agree adoption-ownership.

 

Maybe the CO does not wish to lose the history of their ownership. Ask for the container to be returned and to archive the listing with their ownership. If he chooses to return it great you win he wins. 

 

 

[+Mudfrog]

5 hours ago, arisoft said:

There is a good reason for this kind of disputes.

For the transferring party, the adoption process is about the listing only

But for the receiving party it is about ownership of the physical cache

I think that the arbitrator (Groudspeak) may be legally responsible for damages caused by ambiguities in the contract terms.

 

 

I'm not reading it the way you are. To me, the "transfer ownership of their listings to other users" is straightforward. The listing is the whole kitten caboodle, cache page, physical cache, and anything else associated with the cache. 

 

I'd probably be the better person and give it back but at the same time, I adopted which makes it mine to do with whatever I please, as long as it meets GC dot com guidelines. 

[+kunarion]

1 hour ago, Mudfrog said:

 

I'm not reading it the way you are. To me, the "transfer ownership of their listings to other users" is straightforward. The listing is the whole kitten caboodle, cache page, physical cache, and anything else associated with the cache. 

 

I'd probably be the better person and give it back but at the same time, I adopted which makes it mine to do with whatever I please, as long as it meets GC dot com guidelines. 

 

That Help Center text refers to the listing, which can only be the cache page, not the whole kitten.  However, the adoption checkbox says "Ownership and responsibility for this geocache", which could apply to everything, but still doesn't mention the physical property.  I could adopt a Virtual, but I then don't own the monument.  For the purposes of Geocaching.com, I "own" the geocache, which is the listing.  I can even archive it, yet retain the mounted puzzle box that remains in its spot (perhaps listing it elsewhere).  Is there a similar checkbox for the adopter (the current owner)?  If it has specific language about claim to all property associated with the cache listing, then all is on order.  Yet I've never heard, until now, of an owner retaining ownership of a container after "adopting the listing" to someone else.  So it's another one of those Geocaching.com language things, where words are used differently than the how outside world uses words. 

 

But even if we all agree that it specifies that I'm gifting the puzzle device and everything to the new owner, he's allowed to give it back.  These are a lot of expensive and uniquely crafted devices.  Was there compensation for this amazing "adoption"?  It's like everything goes one way with a Mega (I've had some experiences in this matter).  It seems appropriate to restore the caches to the original owner after the Event is over, if he wants them.  Yeah, it's just a nice thing to do.

 

Again, if one may wish to own a cache he built, one should consider not doing the adoption thing at all.  Favorite points or not.  It's just asking for trouble.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by kunarion

[+TriciaG]

(Gotta do it, sorry.)

It's "kit and caboodle".

https://www.wordorigins.org/big-list-entries/kit-and-caboodle

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/kit-and-caboodle.html

[+GeoElmo6000]

12 minutes ago, TriciaG said:

(Gotta do it, sorry.)

It's "kit and caboodle".

https://www.wordorigins.org/big-list-entries/kit-and-caboodle

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/kit-and-caboodle.html

 

Maybe this was what was being referenced

 

[+Smitherington]

Go for it. Never saw such a complete explanation of that phrase. But I must say that sticking a kitten in there makes it kind of cute. 

[+arisoft]

7 hours ago, kunarion said:

However, the adoption checkbox says "Ownership and responsibility for this geocache", which could apply to everything, but still doesn't mention the physical property.

 

In the "Intro to Geocaching" they say that "Geocaches are found in parks, urban areas, forests, deserts, on top of mountains, underwater — pretty much anywhere you can imagine." I would say that a geocache is a physical or imaginary element somewhere in the real world in contrast to the listing that situates in cyberspace.

[+kunarion]

43 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

In the "Intro to Geocaching" they say that "Geocaches are found in parks, urban areas, forests, deserts, on top of mountains, underwater — pretty much anywhere you can imagine." I would say that a geocache is a physical or imaginary element somewhere in the real world in contrast to the listing that situates in cyberspace.

 

Sure, but I was attempting to reconcile the CO agreeing to transfer the "listing" with the recipient agreeing to adopt the physical container.

 

I clicked a button that says you get to edit the cache page, and you click a different button that says you now own Everthing The Light Touches.  I offered a data point, you took the kaboodle.

 

I'm sure that (as it appplies to "adoption") the "listing" and the "geocache" are always the same thing, but the words in the forms say they are very different things.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by kunarion

[+IAmTipy]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:44 AM, djwhouse said:

That is helpful. I get the expectation by the adopter. If WVTim sends me a great cache to put out for a nearby Mega, and after two years he requests me to send it on to xyz cacher to put out at a new mega, I would jump at the opportunity to send out the cache out of respect for the cacher, the fact that I didn't put in the 50 hours of labor to build it. I guess that's just me. 

 

Legally, there was no transfer. If I made the cache out of a VW Beetle (there are some), if it was adopted, I don't send the Title of the car to the adopter. 

 

What I see here is a situation that is not really addressed in the adoption process. If I and others want to continue to up the geocaching game, expensive (hours and/or $) caches that can be sent around the world, and would really add to the game, are snuffed out. 

 

I would state, if the cache is commissioned by someone (i.e. they request you build it for them), that is clearly and solely their cache. If you  have a cache that is set out, and later adopt it out to ensure maintenance, there is no legal transfer. Were not talking about a bison tube here.

 

The adoption rules, could show this in some way perhaps to encourage collaborations and healthy cache placements around the world.  Maybe the simple solution is for the legal and original owner having the right to re-adopt the cache.

 

It seems the consensus is 'It's mine, you gave it to me'. I should just admit defeat. No more Mega placements. Thanks for the dialogue all.

 

That thing is so cool!

 

I'd love to find some things like that in Michigan/Arizona. Those seem the type of caches I wanna find.

[+Mudfrog]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:00 PM, TriciaG said:

(Gotta do it, sorry.)

It's "kit and caboodle".

https://www.wordorigins.org/big-list-entries/kit-and-caboodle

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/kit-and-caboodle.html

 

Yeah, I didn't catch that when I typed it,, even got a private message from someone setting me straight. 

[+Smitherington]

But reading it was good.  So thanks for the slip-up.