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Team KFWB GPS, and old time geocaching

Solar Max
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I note with sadness, a change in how the sport is done here on Vancouver Island. It used to be great hikes, to new places, reading hilarious log entries, and the thrill of the hunt. No more. No it's about BIG $$$ and expensive software, and plotting coords in Australia, to draw a line to a toilet bowl somewhere near the coast line. After 193 finds, I am now a dinosaur I guess. I did one team KGB cache, and was not thrilled by the money or the site. Does anyone else think that maybe the sport has changed for the worse? Perhaps it's time for me to retire, if it's all about the money.

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No, no, no, nooooo!!


Don't retire. You’re not wrong but the way that some are steering the sport is wrong.


If you don't want to hunt for $$ then don't! Just keep on doing exactly what you are doing. Nobody should be made to feel out of step just because of the latest flavor of the week.


I wouldn’t. Neither should you.



Your not first...But you could be next.

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Recently I felt the same frustration about KFWB GPS caches as Mariners does,but after a friend said "If you don't think the game is fair, don't play" I did some pondering. So, over a weekend while traipsing down some wet, lonely logging

road I surrendered to the conclusion that, no, I can not compete with those who have the technology, the knowhow and the time, or those living in more flexible situations. Heck, I don't even own a computer. I also realize that some of these caches are far beyond my capabilities and I may never visit them. But that's OK. I'm not going to give up without trying.


To my delight, after doing a little wrestling with my brain, I discovered I could figure some of them out. It was a lot of hard work but I could do it! I can't express the great thrill when all that work comes together and the cache is discovered. Firing a few sparks into my stagnant grey matter didn’t hurt that much after all. These caches are still out there, perhaps without the icing but still exceptionally satisfying to find.


This type of caching has rekindled my interest in an activity which for myself ,(with exceptions) has become, routine. With Mariners above noted no. of finds he must surely appreciate this.


Yes, this has been a very big, uncomfortable step for some of us, but a step forward for geocaching.


"Old" Geocaching is still alive and well. Some of us were content to race about to boost our numbers (myself included), or do some pretty desperate things to see our names go up on the ratings. Others are happy to spend hours, days or weeks to figure out one cache.


Pick your flavour. Vanilla, if you prefer, was never taken off the menu.


Quitting is not the same as retiring.

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I agree, the whole idea of Geocaching has changed. I have enjoyed visiting many new areas,and discover new sights.


They seemed to only be interested in giving away big money and GPS units. (Where do they get the big bank roll?)


I almost felt ashamed about placing my latest cache, and then I stopped and thought, "Will people enjoy it here ? Will they enjoy themselves?" Yes. In my mind that is all that really matters, Maybe it will keep all the money hungry cachers away from my caches then. Maybe that is a good thing.

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I find these KFWB caches have had an odd psychological effect on me. I feel like if I'm caching, I should be going after those caches, but then I feel wierd about them, because I just don't know how to react to what I feel is an "unfair" trade, so I don't do anything at all (not to mention that my van's broken down which makes it very difficult to go to all the places required).


As much as I would love to have an extra $1000 or $200, even if I found one of those caches I'm really not sure what I'd do with it.


I think it comes down to my usual reaction to doing things for a reason, whether it be monetary reward, a challenge, or whatever: I very quickly lose interest, even if I found it interesting before. The only reason for doing something that works for me is that it happens to be what I'm enjoying at the time.


I don't have any ideological qualms with these types of caches, in fact I think they're a great idea, but I really hope that they don't change the nature of the wonderful caching community on this island for the worse.


So I'm just going to keep going after the kind of caches I enjoy: those out in the woods, by a river or lake, in the mountains, and hopefully soon (if I ever get a kayak or something) on the water. I'll keep hiding 'em when I see the right place, and I hope you guys will too.


Sounds cheesy, but let's "keep it real" icon_smile.gif

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Just thought of one more thing to add: I wish their cache descriptions gave me some idea of what to expect regarding where the various locations are. Just a set of coordinates doesn't tell me if it's the sort of place I'd want to go, which is definitely my primary criteria for going after a cache or not (or even one part of a cache, in this case).

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For the last 2 weeks I have been working diligently on my own variation of a Team KFWB GPS cache. It is not a cache per se, but a puzzle none the less, as are all of their caches. My personal prize was to find out who they really are.


They have left a trail. I am sure I am not the only one that has seen it, but perhaps to only one to recognize it. Having found several and being a first finder once, helped, but that is not where the trail starts or ends.


I hope to confirm within a day or so and may at least get the satisfaction of knowing I solved the biggest Team KFWB GPS puzzle cache of them all.

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One of the many great things about Geocaching is that you do not HAVE to do the types of caches you do not enjoy. If you don't like the Team KFWB caches, then don't do them. Personally, I'm not a fan of Virtuals, or the type of caches where a dozen can be logged in one day.


There are plenty of regular caches in the area. I located a few that you (MarinerBC) have not yet visited and they sound like great hikes!


There are two by GoldGuru that sound interesting:

Mt Bolduc

Mount Empress


Caches by Dagg are always worthy of the visit:

Obsessed with Punishment

Rednecks & Wildflowers


Although we have been successful in locating the treasure in the Team KFWB caches, it is not all about the money. We have discovered some fantastic areas while doing their caches. One cache clue lead us to the base of a peak that looked too enticing to pass by, so up we went, spending about 4 hours in an area we otherwise would have not discovered. We have also taken waypoints at locations that we plan to explore in greater detail once spring returns.


You should not feel the need to retire - just ignore the caches you do not want to do. You ignore the Team KFWB caches, I'll ignore the virtuals, and we'll both be happy cachers. icon_smile.gif

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-MrG wrote--------------------

They have left a trail. I am sure I am not the only one that has seen it, but perhaps to only one to recognize it. Having found several and being a first finder once, helped, but that is not where the trail starts or ends.


I hope to confirm within a day or so and may at least get the satisfaction of knowing I solved the biggest Team KFWB GPS puzzle cache of them all.



What do you mean? Care explaining to those of us who haven't seen it?



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I note with sadness, that some people are *bitter*, and who knows why, but some people are actually bitter about the TEAM KFWB GPS caches.


These caches are an *addition* to the sport. Geocaching is everything it used to be, and MORE. And it will continue to evolve and grow.


I personally don't like LOCATIONLESS caches. I have a stack of 30 I could do if TEAM KFWB GPS would leave a digital camera on Mt Thurston in Chilliwack for me to find, and that would boost me from a lowly 38 found, up to a respectable 68. But I don't trash people who *place* these types of caches... it's a *part* of geocaching, and it has it's place.


TEAM KFWB GPS caches are fun to do, but difficult. Some are killer math or a jangle of waypoint projections. Others are a multitude of muddy roads.


There were a couple guys snagging everyone that came up it seemed, and then they got a *drive to it* cache that I *could* have had, but rather than being bitter (the thought didn't even cross my mind), I decided to work harder.


Why has caching changed? Did the weather get worse? I think November saw a down turn in caching simply because the weather got worse, and the days MUCH SHORTER. I have taken time to log a few finds *other* than TEAM KFWB GPS caches. Pier Pressure, a local cache in Greater Vancouver, provided a decent basis for solving some of the Team KFWB GPS caches.


People taking part in finding Team KFWB GPS caches are still hiding their own!! On the flip side, a fellow with 75 finds, who has *whined* about a Team KFWB GPS cache, well he doesn't appear to have EVER hidden a cache. So figure that one out.


As far as location goes, I'm pretty happy with every Team KFWB GPS cache I've attempted. Maybe that's because I *like* backroads. And I certainly am at a disadvantage compared to *true islanders* when it comes to getting around the southern island.


Furthermore, this isn't just a series of caches for GIS engineers. I own NO software, and have spent a mere $15.95 on a book that Team KFWB GPS recommended called "GPS Made Easy" by Lawrence Latham, which makes for a handy reference. ALL my other new found tools are FREE, and you just have to *look* for them. 'But I don't have time' is no excuse for laziness. If you really don't have the time, then, you don't have the time! And you shouldn't be attempting the more complex Team KFWB GPS caches.


Let's see, until Team KFWB GPS caches came along, I hadn't been to the island in years. And I had never been to: Port Renfrew, Jordan River, Sooke, Shawnigan Lake, etc, etc. Now that I've been over, I have: new friends, new tools and knowledge, new goals (indirectly related to geocaching), and have had some decent stress relief during a hard time of trying to get a job in the Logistics Industry.


I'm with eroyd: 'Quitting is not the same as retiring.'


High profile cachers take a beating every now and then, it seems to be the way with these *internet chat portals*. Even I get 15 minutes of fame, eventually. And when it's passed, drag me down too...



from Abbotsford BC

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Relevant TEAM KFWB GPS quotes:


'At Team KFWB GPS we’re trying to make the search for caches more exciting – you have to think and plan more, and you’ll find you get much more as a result of your efforts.'




'We’re hoping the standards of caches improve somewhat with more exciting things – you don’t have to throw in cash, but let’s have more excitement rather than defective rubber bands, talking string, silly putty, etc.'


(excerpt from Cape Fear Geocache)


'If you leave a trade item, make sure it is of equal or greater value than what you take. This is commonly called, trading down, and is a common courtesy. If you can't get a a buck more for your item at a garage sale, then it is junk so please don't leave it in a cache.


Leaving chewed up pens, broken toys, free coupons and other junk is not fair trade at any time. The thought of cachers having to haul this box of worthless junk from hide to hide is not what we indented when we started this cache. This is a traveling Cache, NOT traveling Trash.'


(excerpt from June 12, 2002 comments re: Vancouver Transit, the point here, is to have some *standards* for geocaching... not just a case of *anything goes*)



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Dear MarinerBC,


My rebuttal isn't primarily aimed at you! I am speaking to all the little whimpers I've heard here and there, and seen on cache logs.


I fully intend on doing MORE Vancouver Island caches, you know, the *so-called* REGULAR ones.


As well, I will do other Team KFWB GPS caches once the dust settles (and the mud dries), *even* if the *cash* has already been (hopefully) well spent. :-)


I still maintain that 'the chase is the cache'... I'm certainly not financially ahead at this point. I have learned much though.



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I couldn't agree more. I'll admit that I haven't been involved in this sport for all that long, but I can't see anything wrong with what Team KFWB is doing at all. In fact, I see a number of benefits to what they are doing:


- they are generating more interest, participation and publicity for the sport - what's wrong with that?


- they are taking me to new places I would not have gone


- they are making me want to go out and learn all kinds of new things (projections, co-ordinate conversions, trigonometry....)


I'm in the same boat as Canadazuuk, I don't have any fancy software or toys, yet. But they are sure igniting my desire to learn. And I plan on placing my first cache(s) soon. It won't be a big $$$ one because I can't afford it, but it will require some effort to find it.


It's been said before - if you don't like these kinds of caches then don't look for them. There are plenty of "traditional" caches to go around. They are not trying to change the sport, only to make it more interesting and exciting. Some of the techniques they are using could be applied to traditional caches to make them more interesting as well.


Keep up the great work TEAM KFWB GPS!!

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Team who? KISW? Thanks for the plug Jrav


MBC In Sept on Newcastle, I think I remember you and Plantman discussing how much you enjoyed the harder caches, the ones with more thinking involved...I could be mistaken, I often am




I used to hike up mountains for the views [icon_wink.gif]


[This message was edited by Dagg on November 21, 2002 at 10:16 AM.]


[This message was edited by Dagg on November 21, 2002 at 11:22 AM.]

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Thanks for the responses, folks, especially eroyd, jrav and Dagg.


I did not say that I would NOT be doing these, I meant that I questioned the ethics of caching for cash. Jrav, and Dagg, if you'll look at my profile, you will see that I do try for the harder ones, and am now deep into researching "punishment" by Dagg. With luck, and spare tires in my trunk, my partner and I should have it Sunday morning. (Boldly go where no Oldsmobile has gone before).


Rednecks and Wildflowers may have to wait until next spring, but ya never know. If I can get someone to go with me (wanna volunteer, Team jrav?) I would love to do Empress Mountain. Goldguru has been the greatest addition to uour sport since Team Dagg.


(If I ain't sweatin' , I ain't cachin'.

Mariner icon_wink.gif

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MBC thank you for your kind words.

I know what your saying, I don't know if "ethics" is the word I would use. However, the whole competition thing was odd for me at first. I was uncomfortable with it, But after working on these caches I got over it. The cash is only part of the deal (I need a raise!) its the excitement of the hunt, The learning experience, and as Zuuk said meeting more people.


I do think that the team has split the local geocaching community, Unintentionally Im sure. But it doesn't have to be that way. You, Plantman,Yellowcode all seem to be about numbers, the higher the number beside your name the better.

And that's cool. I could care less what my "standing" is. I guess what Im trying to say is exactly what everyone else is saying...If you don't like them don't do em. The sport WILL evolve

Wouldnt it be great if this, well off team came to the next Van Isle get together and helped make and even greater success then last years!


My thoughts



I used to hike up mountains for the views [icon_wink.gif]


[This message was edited by Dagg on November 22, 2002 at 01:42 PM.]

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Hey Dagg,


I see where you're coming from, but believe me, if it were about numbers, I would have done a LOT of "locationless" caches, as others around here have. I have done NO locationless at all. I admit that I have been more active than some around here, but that is because I am not native to this provinc and I am depending on YOU and eroyd and Plantman to show me places that I never knew existed. On the flip side, though, if I fail to find a cache, I try to return if possible. I made 3 trips to San Juan Alpine, being defeated by darkness, and flat tires, and a false presumption on our part about where the cache would be, before finally getting there. If it were numbers, I would have saved the fuel and time at San Juan, and made a trip somewhere else and done 5, instead of just one.


Once again, I prove my niavete. I really thought that this sport was about going to new places, and the hunt, and that sort of thing. More and more, I hear people say the money helps spur them on. Not me. I still go to the top of the mountain because it's a mountain. I have done a KFWB cache, and may do more, but it won't be for the money.

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Didn't know locationless caches counted in the "Big Score". There definately a different game as are virtuals, but a lot more fun than reading signs. Both have there place.


How can you tell who just got a new digital camera? I'm still having fun.


Hope to see more different folks out there this weekend on the front. Perhaps I should make more effort to join up with others.

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I have read several posts here and have seen the comments posted on the cache pages by finders as well as the person or persons who have hidden these caches. I have also discussed this subject amongst friends who geocache. I do not think that any of the persons making comments here are whiners or whimpers. This is a public forum and as such, sometimes a debate may start on a particular subject. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is the place to express them.


I, like marinerBC and others, have questions about these caches and the effect they have on geocaching and cachers in general. Expressing these opinions are not in anyway meant to insult the team placing them or the cachers finding them. So *beating* on anyone who may raise points that do not sit well with anyone involved is just a waste of cyberspace. Having said that, I do feel a rebuttal is in order.


In my case, I feel these opinions are meant to make the parties involved think about the activity. In recent days it appears that this may be occurring and that a sense of *fair play* may be starting to take hold around some of these caches. Most of the comments that are used to justify these caches, such as

...they take me to places I wouldn't have gone to...and I have made new friends....
really applies to all caches. I am sure that anyone who has been involved in this game for any length of time has been taken to places they would have never gone to if it were not for a little tupperware container being placed there and you have probably met other cachers along the way. I've seen more places on this Island because of geocaching for the first time then I can count, and I have lived here for most of my life. I have also met several very nice people who geocache and some of them are pursuing these caches.


If you leave a trade item, make sure it is of equal or greater value than what you take. This is commonly called, trading down, and is a common courtesy. If you can't get a a buck more for your item at a garage sale, then it is junk so please don't leave it in a cache.
This quote, seems to me to actually go against this type of cache because how can you make a trade with something of equal value when your getting $1000 cash. If you were really truthful, to a large extent it is about the money. For some people this is not a problem, for others,it makes them think about how they participate in the game. If I had the apparently deep pockets like the Team has, I might even be doing something similar. But in several ways though, geocaching can be quite competitive if you are so inclined, from trying to be a *first finder* to number of finds and so on. These caches have only made this more so. I and others are not saying that these caches shouldn't be allowed, we are just stating that from our observations the game has changed and some thought should be given to where this is going. It has nothing to do with *not liking or liking* them and telling us just choose to *Not Do Them* is like saying keep quiet, go away.


Some of the really good things that these caches do bring to the game is that it has made players learn new techniques and terminology. I have even learned a few things. This is something that will benefit the game as a whole and it has made me think of including some different ways of getting to future caches that I am planning. And if the Team wants to get involved with our next Island Geo Event, I am sure that The Capt'n, Dagg and myself would welcome them. I wonder if they'll come incognito, by way of the Bucket cache. (Inside Nanaimo cache joke...)


We live on a rock, ergo we rockcrawl......


[This message was edited by bcrockcrawler, xstitcher, & BMXer on November 23, 2002 at 11:00 PM.]

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Hi bcrockcrawler, xstitcher & BMXer - what a name to try and remember!! You've raised some good points. I don't think there is really a right and wrong side of this issue. I think that everyone will have their opinion and I agree that it's great that we have a place to share and discuss.


I look forward to a future Vancouver Island get together to put some faces to all of these names. I've met a few of you out on the trails, but look forward to meeting more.


Just a few things I'd like to throw out there and then a question for the group:


- since the article in the TC I have had about half a dozen people, who know that I am a geocacher, as me for more info about the sport. Only one of them asked if it was normal to find $$$ in caches - the others were just interested in the sport and wanted a good reason to get outdoors. I've been sharing what I know and you should see some new cachers in the area soon.


- I just read over the FAQ pages and there are actually several references in there about putting $$$ in caches. One reference states that it may make it more interesting - no real point here, just pointing out that the people who set up this site did consider it.


Now to my question:


I will be taking some of the $$$ that I did recover from a KFWB cache and be using it to build and then hide my first few caches in the near future. The contents will be more along the lines of "traditional" caches. But I would like to make the hunt more challenging. How would people feel about a normal cache being hidden using some of the same methods that KFWB are using?

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Hey CG,


ANY cache that takes me outdoors is a good one. If I fail, so be it, if I succeed, that's neat too. I don't believe there IS a good method or a bad method to do caches. There are just different types of caches. I note that the words "STRESSED" are being used to describe those who chase, or do not chase these other types of caches. I actually know someone who has stated that he feels "pressured" by the urgency to do a cache. I refuse to let someone else stress me, or not, on an activity that I choose for recreational purposes. As I have stated, I have done a KFWB cache, and am working on others, so I don't believe there is a right way or a wrong way to do anything. I just think that the rules should be followed by everybody who hides or seeks a cache.


I am with Rockcrawler, however: Trading down is not possible with $1000 in a cash. These statements should not, therefore, be made. I applaud Team KFWB for their generosity, and their enthusiasm for the sport, but I don't feel I can make a fair trade at any of their caches. I won't take all the money either, or even half of it, but that's a moral decision on my part.


AS for meeting new cachers and seeing new places: I was doing that before Team KFWB, and will continue to. As I said, they have added a new dimension to caching, which I welcome, however the Sport is now moving toward financial gain as the prime motivation, not going new places and meeting new people. They are undoubtedly important, but they are now secondary.


(Shameless plug for a cache: I returned to Leech Falls for the third time today, just to see it, and accompany a cacher who hadn't been there yet. If you Cash-cachers haven't been to this one yet, you owe yourself the sheer pleasure of the view. ( Did I say it right, eroyd? When do I get paid?) icon_wink.gif )


Having said all this, I am not trying to be critical of Team KFWB. They have added a new motivation for other cachers, and how can that be a bad thing? Get them out there, cuz..


"If I ain't sweatin', I ain't cachin'.."

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Thanks for the kind words Curious George. I just wish people would go to my harder caches too.. icon_rolleyes.gif


Leech Falls is indeed the name of the cache If you would like to go some time, a car can get you there, even an Oldsmobile (inside joke). Or, I can go with you, as I have made a few trips to it now, because I enjoy it so much. It is at:




I hope you get as much of a kick out of this one as I have. It was my second ever cache.

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Well - time to get my thoughts on here, and I've had plenty of thoughts believe me. But - it took so long to figure out what they were and how to write them up, and now guess what - it hit me that it's all going to be irrelevant soon enough, so I've scratched those thoughts and come up instead with this:


The way I see it this whole Team K thing is a massive blitz campaign. They must have planned it very carefully for many months before anything ever showed up on our favourite web site. Now for the past two months they've been carrying it out with military precision. But there's no way they're going to keep up the "bombardment." Very soon it will all be over and done with--either they'll have successfully completed their campaign and will pull out as planned, or if they don't have definite plans to end it they'll in any case lose interest and move on to something else.


It will take awhile for the fallout to settle. Those who got their adrenalin and grey matter going are going to feel at a bit of a loss (or maybe a huge relief?). Some of us will get so used to seeing those 40-some unfound caches on the list that they'll gradually become invisible and not bother us, or we might figure out ways of getting them to not show up. (The thing that bothers me most about them is there's no way to mentally put them in order--you can't tell where they are and the names are virtually impossible to remember because they all sound alike and seem to have no relationship to anything.) Others might work at crossing them off their list one by one.


But I'm sure I'm not the only one dying of curiousity. Wouldn't it be something if Team K did come to Newcastle or if Mr.G. found out and shared the information!


Thank you Mariner for posting this very thought-provoking forum topic *****


PS Canadazuuk you don't need a digital camera to post photos - get two disposables (or a 2nd-hand autofocus from a used camera store for $20), snap all your photos and then have London Drugs scan them for you. You need a photo editor to reduce them to 100 kb though.


[This message was edited by Loonie Easter Bunnies on November 25, 2002 at 10:40 AM.]

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So how many did you folks out there near Port Renfrew actually get? Your Logs are, shall we say, interesting. Was it truly fun, or truly a b***h? I don't think I could get that excited for $1000. Maybe $10000, but....


Felt bad reading about that walk past the locked gates. If you guys had had a Satellite phone, I'd have been the first person there to come get you. This is not what it's about, though. Locked gates? 2:30 AM? Sigh...


If I ain't sweatin', I ain't cachin. Are we there yet?

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Thanks for your reply Mariner, and empathy.


I remain positive about geocaching, and just finished rattling off more 'topics' about these caches. At least there was a 2nd team this time going for the cache. I got to work with some great guys, and 1 guys wife was a BIG help as well. To gather up all the clues in 24-36 hours and pull it off, well that was great, mmmm, no, IT WAS AWESOME!


These caches can be done. Yes, it can take some time for sure, and possible pain.


I'm just a regular guy with a Magellan 315 and a 'drive, drive, drive' attitude. It might have been me going to Port Renfrew to gather clues, but my car was locked behind gates very far away.


A deficit weekend too, but since I'm already in the hole, what the heck. You gotta have fun out there.


I don't know what the weekend has done to either heighten or dampen people's enthusiasm for these types of caches, but TV shows like Survivor and all that stuff just proves that people are into it in some way or another.


We are mass consumers of sensationalism.


Once in a while, a dose of reality sets in, and the Soap Operas return.



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What happend out there? ....I kicked zuuk in the head, Eroyd spit in JJ's face and Jrav pulled a knife on CDMS! KIDDING.


Sh*t happened.


PS Zuuk I gave up trying to config the BR maps they are way too out of scale. I did get another map of the phantom area configged and uploaded our tracks ...I will email it to you its kinda intresting...

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I didn't write this-it was posted on one of MBC's cache pages, and I thought it appropriate.


"Phatcache & Geobandit's Adventure - Part IV


Ah, now this is what geocaching is all about (or used to be)! After spending the last 36 hours driving through clearcut after clearcut in search of KFWB's Project Northstar and Phantom of the Future caches, we decided to tackle a more traditional cache (actually, there is another reason - we found ourself on the wrong side of a washed out bridge and decided to take the scenic route to the ferry through Cowichan Lake & Duncan)! The various views from the top of Mt. Prevost are incredible, worth well over $1000 (though they did not cover the ferry ride to and from the Island)! I cannot help wondering about the future of geocaching on the Island - what happened to the simple thrill of discovering new places and reading the often humorous logs of previous visitors? I too was disappointed to find Project Northstar which promised BIG $$$ to contain a blank logbook and no cash. Mt. Prevost Summit is an excellent example of what geocaching used to be, and it now contains a fresh package of smiley faced tissues for those who may find themselves a bit emotional over the recent changes to the sport of geocaching.


Thanks MarinerBC for a great cache!"



My opinions:


I just hope that in the mad search for cash, you all keep in mind, when you bolt cut gates, etc., what kind of picture you're painting of the sport, and some (not all) the people who do it.


I likely will be retiring, as I recently lost MBC's GPSr, and once I replace it, I will be putting a self-imposed ban on my using it, until I can afford one of my own.

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To the best of my knowledge, I know of no one actually cutting a locked gate.

That being said if I had bolt cutters when Zuuk and I were trapped behind a locked gate, I would have used them WITHOUT HESITATION. The forest companies DO NOT own that land, you and I do. And if they chose to prevent free access to our lands I will do whatever I have to do. Regardless of how it reflects on the sport of geocaching. When I returned to the locked gate the next day, a local Hunter offered to shoot the lock off. …..

(Too dangerous for me)

Considering that these multinational companies are raping our forests for profit. I think they can afford a new $5 lock...




[This message was edited by Dagg on November 27, 2002 at 03:15 PM.]

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I agree that WE own the forests, Dagg. My problem is that if we as a group are perceived as destructive in any way, we will be banned from areas that we now have free access to. In the US, National Parks are off limits to geocachers, for example.


About the Gate... I would have cut it off as well, because safety and threat to life was involved. I just hope that we can be as friendly to the folks who own the tree licences as we are to the environment that we all are trying to care for. Maybe as well as the slogan "Cache In, Trash Out" there could be, "I think, therefore I cache." or "I think before I cache."


I am without a GPSr for the forseeable future, so I look forward to watching everyone else's exploits. Cache on, folks, and please make the log entires like being there, for we handicapped folks.


If I ain't sweatin', I ain't cachin. Are we there yet?

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MBC You can use my GPS anytime IM not. Just send me an email we can work something out [icon_smile.gif]




Btw, the only life at risk was mine if I didn't come home that night....we had the gear - the satellite phone. They sure are pricey! I wonder if a booster antenna would work?


Check out Bold Endurance. it doesn't look like the team has any plans on stopping [icon_smile.gif] And there should be something for everyone....Good news!


I used to hike up mountains for the views [icon_wink.gif]

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As someone who has cached vicariously for a while now (hence the moniker - I know I am a neophyte at real caching), I don't think these Team KFWB GPS caches are necessarily bad, just different. God knows eroyd has spent a lot of time since this has hit the south island, figurin' and ritin' and runnin' 'round, but I like to think as he does, that it is a welcome mental challenge, and for all that effort it is neat to get such a reward. He also spends lots of time assisting v-royd and c-royd with easier "traditional" ones locally. With other outdoor sports such as fishing and hunting dying a slow death, geocaching is a great alternative. Anyway it gets him out in the woods where he likes to be. The conflict recently has been unfortunate, but I don't think they are any indication of the general spirit locally of geocachers, or the sport. Just my thoughts.

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Twenty more caches coming?


I am already on record as 'remaining positive', and have continued to 'plug' these caches in as many places as reasonably possible. I hope to work again with the same guys and gal in some way shape or form, despite the events of Sunday afternoon (NOT SATURDAY, NOT MY VEHICHLE SITUATION, NOT THE HIKE ETC... those things come with the territory... we are responsible for our actions, and have to suffer the consequences sometimes... ignorance is NOT bliss... I take responsiblity for what I do, and dagg and I were blessed with good weather as consolation for having to hike out of Jordan Main...)


With a December 8th release date for 'Bold...', perhaps a bit more 'leisure' could be taken at collecting information and collating the data.



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I agree with cachewidow. There SHOULD be caches that are REALLY tough. I have had more fun figuring out a way to a Dagg or eroyd cache, than any other type of cache. These are no different. Hey, I have even done some of the math for KFWB caches in the past, I just haven't had the time ( I work weekends a lot) to go get them when the gates on the logging roads are open.


Having said that, and after reading the logs from the weekend of November 24th, I see NO evidence of a place to go, just for the sake of the place, or any other redeeming characteristic of the final cache spot, save for the money. In other words, would cachers go to these spots if there were NO money in the cache, just a log book? I know of at least 3 who would, and eroyd is one of them. I note that interpersonal relationships were formed, and I believe, damaged, by the interactions around two caches above Jordan Ridge.


I have a real drive to go to Rednecks and Wildflowers, for example. I have pestered numerous other cachers to go with me, and have not yet been successful. I will probably get there eventually, but it's not because there is money there. To me, that's what it's about. Yes, I AM an idealist, and very old fashioned, but that's who I am. I'm the guy who has tears come to his eyes when I look at Leech Falls during high runff, because of the sheer beauty. My desktop wallpaper is cache sites that I would NEVER have seen, were it not for people around here who made me go there, without a financial incentive.


Here's to eroyd, cachewidow, v-royd, and c-royd. They inflamed my passion for going to these places, and Yellowcode convinced me that I could actually go there. Dagg taught me that the chase is the thing. Plantman showed me how to be patient. The rest of you showed me that the place IS the thing, not the money. You guys rock.


If I ain't sweatin', I ain't cachin. Are we there yet?

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I note with satisfacton that Team KFWB GPS has shown integrity and fair play, by not removing my note on their new cache site:


web page


As I was already sure, they are truly a worthy addition to the geocaching scene here on the Island. I challenged them, and they proved the mettle of which they are made.


Here's to you, Team KFWB GPS! Now don't think I won't want to debate you some time though...



If I ain't sweatin', I ain't cachin. Are we there yet?

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controversial caches cause chaotic connectivity, compare competing categories, cram clue collecting, collate coordinates, cross creeks, clever climb, caught car, conjure catastrophy, candy cane, crispy crunch, courageous comeback, collapse cordial conversation, conceited counterfeit coupe, compass course, collective connivence, count cash, corroded consciences collaborate, correctional correspondence cannot conclude cooperation, conceive crushed craniums, clobber, collapse, conceal, court, confinement, contemplation...



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I will go back to rednecks with you sometime. We can place a real cache while we are there.

Plantman was going to place one, but He is probably too busy getting ready for his big move down under.


So say the word and we're off!




I used to hike up mountains for the views [icon_wink.gif]

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One thing seems safe to say about Team K from their cache descriptions and people's logs - they always do what they say they're going to. So, unless ALL those 25 upcoming caches are in the Okanagan, California, etc, it certainly looks like I have to eat my words from last week!


Glad to see people on both sides of this issue making the effort to be friendly to each other on this forum - the real opposition may end up being the ones who go and grab the money and don't log. This seems to have happened on a couple of the Team K caches, and if it turned into a trend would be a very unfortunate legacy of all the high stakes and publicity.


Re Conspiracy - Canadazuuk you overlooked caffeine cravings, complete concentration, compelling computations and caustic commentary. And as for me, I just can't comprehend those complex calculations. PS have you tried googlewhacking; it's non-addicting, you can safely try it out once or twice..


[This message was edited by Loonie Easter Bunnies on December 02, 2002 at 07:38 AM.]

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