Group Signatures

[+GLC]

I have been caching for over eleven years now and I'm still learning.  The topic I am going to touch on has been discussed over and over and over again locally, and this weekend at great length, so I decided it was time to get an official ruling on it.  I have been searching for the "rule" for about 15 minutes now without success, so I just decided to ask here.  I know someone will know the answer, or at least know what direction to point me in to find the answer.

 

When you are in a group, is it okay to claim the find if you weren't with the group that found and signed the actual log?  What I mean by this is not your typical "leapfrogging" on a power trail or road.  My question comes in when you are in a very large group and "divide and conquer" to get all of the caches in the area that you're visiting (and probably won't be back to any time soon).  What is the official "rule" on this?  Is it okay if you're leapfrogging?  Is it okay if you're on one road and the other group is three streets over?  Does anyone know where that official info might be?

 

It seems that I was in the minority in feeling that leapfrogging was okay but being 3 streets over isn't.  But if being 3 streets over is still okay to log, I want to claim them like everyone else did.  Can anyone PLEASE point me in the right direction.

 

Thanks in advance for any help. 

[+Max and 99]

5 hours ago, GLC said:

I have been caching for over eleven years now and I'm still learning.  The topic I am going to touch on has been discussed over and over and over again locally, and this weekend at great length, so I decided it was time to get an official ruling on it.  I have been searching for the "rule" for about 15 minutes now without success, so I just decided to ask here.  I know someone will know the answer, or at least know what direction to point me in to find the answer.

 

When you are in a group, is it okay to claim the find if you weren't with the group that found and signed the actual log?  What I mean by this is not your typical "leapfrogging" on a power trail or road.  My question comes in when you are in a very large group and "divide and conquer" to get all of the caches in the area that you're visiting (and probably won't be back to any time soon).  What is the official "rule" on this?  Is it okay if you're leapfrogging?  Is it okay if you're on one road and the other group is three streets over?  Does anyone know where that official info might be?

 

It seems that I was in the minority in feeling that leapfrogging was okay but being 3 streets over isn't.  But if being 3 streets over is still okay to log, I want to claim them like everyone else did.  Can anyone PLEASE point me in the right direction.

 

Thanks in advance for any help. 

I'd be happy to help.

In my opinion everything you described is wrong. No excuses, no exceptions, it's wrong.

Don't claim a find on a cache that you have not physically been to.

There's nothing wrong with the group signature. But don't claim a find on a cache you have not physically been to.

How many of the seventy finds in one day were you actually at? 20? 30? 40?

 

From The help center:

Found It

You can log caches online as "Found" after you visited the coordinates and signed the logbook.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Max and 99

[+Mermaid.Man]

I guess that what you're asking is whether it's OK to claim a find on a cache that you've never visited, on the basis that some people that are your friends found it? 

Of course it isn't. You know that I'm sure. 

[+Max and 99]

1 hour ago, GLC said:

My question comes in when you are in a very large group and "divide and conquer" to get all of the caches in the area that you're visiting (and probably won't be back to any time soon). 

You think that justifies leap-frogging? Because you won't be back to the area any time soon? Bologna. 

[+Lynx Humble]

Wow so wrong on so many level

[+Mausebiber]

3 hours ago, GLC said:

I have been caching for over eleven years now

 

What have you done the last 11 years?  After this long time you should have no doubt what's right.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Mausebiber

[+TriciaG]

No leapfrogging

 

No claiming a find on a cache you haven't actually been to

 

The "group signing" is a convenience for the CO, that the log isn't filled up quickly. But only those who are physically there and COULD sign the log if it were passed around, should claim the find.

[+cerberus1]

2 hours ago, GLC said:

I have been caching for over eleven years now and I'm still learning.... 

   Yeah, right...      And it isn't even April 1st...

I'd think common sense would say that if it just doesn't seem right, it most likely isn't.

This is why we say "numbers" mean nothing to us.  We've seen/heard how many come by them...   

 

Sure you could log any cache you weren't at as a find.  Don't be upset if I snicker at events.

Realize that some COs check logs, and knowing a faker's in the area (word gets out), many check. 

[+GLC]

It appears that everyone that responded feels as I do and that you should only claim the find if you see and/or touch the cache.  No worries.  That's what I do.  What I want to be able to do is to show those I know who don't live by that philosophy the official "ruling" on it.  I felt like odd man out this weekend since I slowed everyone down because I wanted to lay hands on the cache before claiming it. I REALLY need to see the rules about this.  Anyone know where that is written?

[+barefootjeff]

One of my caching friends once said, "if you don't write your own name in the log book, or weren't in a position where you were able to, please do not claim it as a find" and that's the ethic I've followed. Most times on group outings, the logbook is handed around so everyone gets to sign it anyway, even if only one person retrieved the cache from its hiding place and only one person put it back. Sometimes, though, that's not really practical so a group signature is used, such as on this kayaking cache I did with a group earlier this year where there was only room for one kayak to squeeze in amongst the mangroves to the cache:

 

 

We were all close enough to have signed the log individually but with all the manouvering in and out that would have entailed, there was a good chance it might have been dropped and ended up in the drink.

[+CAVinoGal]

19 minutes ago, GLC said:

It appears that everyone that responded feels as I do and that you should only claim the find if you see and/or touch the cache.  No worries.  That's what I do.  What I want to be able to do is to show those I know who don't live by that philosophy the official "ruling" on it.  I felt like odd man out this weekend since I slowed everyone down because I wanted to lay hands on the cache before claiming it. I REALLY need to see the rules about this.  Anyone know where that is written?

Geocaching doesn't have RULES, it has GUIDELINES.  Max & 99 quoted the pertinent guideline:
 

 

5 hours ago, Max and 99 said:

From The help center:

Found It

You can log caches online as "Found" after you visited the coordinates and signed the logbook.

 

[+Max and 99]

6 hours ago, GLC said:

 

It seems that I was in the minority in feeling that leapfrogging was okay

 

26 minutes ago, GLC said:

It appears that everyone that responded feels as I do and that you should only claim the find if you see and/or touch the cache

Leapfrogging is not OK, and everyone who posted on this forum thread so far stated something to that effect.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Max and 99

[+Max and 99]

Find a better geocaching group.

[+niraD]

9 hours ago, GLC said:

When you are in a group, is it okay to claim the find if you weren't with the group that found and signed the actual log?

"Armchair logging by any other name would stink as sour."

 

9 hours ago, GLC said:

It seems that I was in the minority in feeling that leapfrogging was okay but being 3 streets over isn't.

What's the difference? Either way, you weren't with the group that found the cache.

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, GLC said:

I felt like odd man out this weekend since I slowed everyone down because I wanted to lay hands on the cache before claiming it.

I've gone geocaching with people who wanted to sign every log personally. That was fine. Once everyone had spotted the hide (or given up), the last person retrieved the cache, signed for everyone (either writing everyone's names, or writing a team name to save space on the log sheet), handed the log to the person who wanted to sign himself, retrieved the log, and replaced the cache. Then we continued our hike.

 

Playing this way (sometimes called "Huckle Buckle Beanstalk style") is slower than declaring victory for everyone once anyone in the group spots the hide (sometimes called "Three Musketeers style"). So what? The point isn't to increment your find count. The point is to have fun searching for geocaches.

[+Max and 99]

4 hours ago, GLC said:

What I want to be able to do is to show those I know who don't live by that philosophy the official "ruling" on it. 

In my opinion, they just don't care. In all likelihood they already know what the guidelines state. 

[+rapotek]

7 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

One of my caching friends once said, "if you don't write your own name in the log book, or weren't in a position where you were able to, please do not claim it as a find" and that's the ethic I've followed.

 

I try to follow similar ethic for some time, but with some subtle differences. I log a geocache as found if: there is my signature/stamp in the physical logbook (no matter if I wrote it personally or someone else done that) AND I either personally took the container from its hiding place (or opened it there to get the logbook) or I put it back. This way if I am with a group when someone f. ex. climbs the tree, brings the container/logbook down for everyone to write their signatures or put all the signatures in the logbook up the tree and then put the container/logbook back, I do not claim this as a find. That is a general ethic I try to follow, but there is a variety of geocaches placed so I am open to adjust it against a particular geocache and circumstances if there is no other way to apply it strictly. Anyway I hope I cured myself from a newbie attitude that I have to find every geocache.

[+Max and 99]

10 minutes ago, rapotek said:

I log a geocache as found if: there is my signature/stamp in the physical logbook (no matter if I wrote it personally or someone else done that)

That applies for everything but a teamwork cache! 😁

It's the one thing that causes me the most problems with my teamwork cache. They are convinced that if someone writes their name in the log book they can claim a find, even if they've never been there. They can't. 

[+Mausebiber]

9 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

One of my caching friends once said, "if you don't write your own name in the log book, or weren't in a position where you were able to, please do not claim it as a find" and that's the ethic I've followed

 

This is not in according to GS policies, see statement from Nicole:

 

Logging Guidelines from Groundspeak Headquarters, Community Support, 01 Mar 16

https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC65HPK_ferns-dark-secret-kylo?guid=77a75c45-d686-4741-a312-f3e0494af534

Technically, the guidelines don't specify that you must mark the log book yourself.

The guideline states: "Physical geocaches can be logged online as "Found" once the physical log has been signed. " It doesn't specify if the user has to log it themselves.

Thus yes, if a group of cachers find a cache and a user signs the names for all, this is allowed.

 

Happy caching,

Nicole
Community Support, Groundspeak

 

And this is the referred description:

So in compliance with the guidelines somebody has to put a mark into the logbook. It can be a sticker, a stamp, a signature or something else. If your buddy and not you puts the mark in the logbook, that's fine as well. However it doesn't count when you are not at the cache, which is up in the tree.

[+barefootjeff]

18 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

This is not in according to GS policies, see statement from Nicole:

 

I'll repeat the quote from my friend:

 

"If you don't write your own name in the log book, or weren't in a position where you were able to, please do not claim it as a find".

 

Sorry about the double negative, but that's how he wrote it. What he's saying is, someone else can sign the log for you or use a group signature, as long as you were close enough to have been able to do so yourself if you'd wanted to. This is entirely consistent with what the Help Centre says about visiting the coordinates, you have to be there even if it wasn't you who wrote in the logbook.

[+L0ne.R]

It's allowed and sanctioned in my area. As a CO I can't ask that everyone who claims a find log my logbook individually, not with a group-of-the-day signature. 

 

They can create an account for their group and log finds under that group account. But if they want to claim a find on their individual accounts then don't use the group-of-the-day excuse or the "we are helping the CO by not filling up their logbook" excuse. Especially when the CO provided a big enough logbook for 100s of signatures.

 

I had a group of 50 claim finds when only 3 visited the cache. They needed the non-trad find on New Years Day to claim more coveted 10-10-10 and Jasmer challenge caches. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by L0ne.R

[+cerberus1]

14 hours ago, GLC said:

It appears that everyone that responded feels as I do and that you should only claim the find if you see and/or touch the cache.  No worries.  That's what I do.  What I want to be able to do is to show those I know who don't live by that philosophy the official "ruling" on it.  I felt like odd man out this weekend since I slowed everyone down because I wanted to lay hands on the cache before claiming it. I REALLY need to see the rules about this.  Anyone know where that is written?

 

I don't believe it is written.  I feel it's common sense, any may be simply how you were brought up.

I do remember Jeremy Irish saying:

"Bickering over the rules of a cache "find" was never the intent of Geocaching.com. There's no prize, no leaderboard, and no trophy, so there's no reason to get your knickers in a twist about anyone else's definition of a find." 

 

The Help Center does say, " You can log caches online as "Found" after you visited the coordinates and signed the logbook", but Groundspeak has been clear that "group finds" are fine, and there's plenty of Lackey photos to show they mean it.  

Events are similar with " Once you have physically attended the Event, choose the log type “Attended” to earn your smiley."

[+NanCycle]

The relevant guideline is *not* "You can log caches online as 'Found' after some of your friends visited the coordinates and signed the logbook."

 

 

[Darwin473]

I avoid the whole debate by only caching on my own.  

 

I don't have any friends....

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Unit473L said:

I avoid the whole debate by only caching on my own.  

 

I don't have any friends....

This forum really needs a "Sad" response... 

[+colleda]

On 10/7/2021 at 9:24 AM, niraD said:

This forum really needs a "Sad" response... 

I'm with unit473L. Prefer caching alone.

Nothing sad about, it just a personal preference, unless one realy doesn't have any friends but I suspect unit had his tougue firmly in his cheek.

Edited October 8, 2021 by colleda

[+niraD]

4 hours ago, colleda said:

Nothing sad about, it just a personal preference, unless one realy doesn't have any friends but I suspect unit had his tougue firmly in his cheek.

Maybe this forum really needs a "Tongue in cheek" response... 

[+cerberus1]

8 hours ago, colleda said:

Nothing sad about, it just a personal preference...

 

Yep.  The pace is your own, and the last thing I want when relaxing outside is idle chat, talk politics, or hear rumors.   

[Darwin473]

19 hours ago, colleda said:

...but I suspect unit had his tougue firmly in his cheek.

 

There may have been a bit of cheek tongue-ness. 

 

It'd be more accurate to say I don't have any friends I go caching with. Would be good to get my wife interested, but she's been very underwhelmed when I've gone out with her and can't see the point of it all.