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Again with the trees - markers & Fire tacks?


Unit473L

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There are loads of threads about fire tacks but most of the ones I found tended to be older ones.

 

Do we have any new guidelines / directions on placing reflectors on trees? I know GC sells geo tacks and fire tacks but those are clearly designed to be pushed into trees - which as far as I can tell, goes against the "no nails or screws in trees" policy. Or is there an exception for products GC sells? :tongue:

 

I wasn't able to find any other threads with ideas on how to mount a reflector in a tree and make sure it points in the desired direction. Correction: I found lots of threads with ideas, but none that I thought would stop the reflector twisting. I had thought about getting those trailer type reflectors which have a pre-mounted plastic base with holes on the ends, and using a bit of fishing line. But testing in my back yard shows that this two-point anchor method doesn't stop the reflector from flipping over in the wind. (These are also kind of big...) Since reflectors are directional, they need to face in the direction the searcher is standing. If the reflector twists around a bit, the searcher won't see anything. I'd thought of adding more anchor points, but then if it gets too big it is more likely to be muggled.

 

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to mount a reflector in a tree in a way that it will reliably face in the right direction, without screws or nails?

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Firetacks are

23 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to mount a reflector in a tree in a way that it will reliably face in the right direction, without screws or nails?

 

Something that isn't going to get blown away or dislodged by an animal? No.

 

Use firetacks, they are allowed.

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33 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to mount a reflector in a tree in a way that it will reliably face in the right direction, without screws or nails?

 

The night caches I've found didn't rely on the markers pointing in any direction, they were simply placed close enough (<50m ish) so that when you were at the first one you would be able to see the second, then at the second you would be able to see the third, etc. or if they were along a clearly defined  track then the markers were only placed close to the junctions to show you which path to take.

 

 

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I've used fire tacks with good success.  I think their use is declining simply because people aren't hiding long night caches much anymore.

Can you point to anything in the guidelines that prohibits fire tacks?  They have been used for years by hunters and other outdoors people and there is no evidence that a fire tack has ever hurt a tree.

 

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44 minutes ago, Unit473L said:

There are loads of threads about fire tacks but most of the ones I found tended to be older ones.

 

Do we have any new guidelines / directions on placing reflectors on trees? I know GC sells geo tacks and fire tacks but those are clearly designed to be pushed into trees - which as far as I can tell, goes against the "no nails or screws in trees" policy. Or is there an exception for products GC sells? 

 

Nothing different, and there's no "exception"... fire tack markers don't do damage to full-sized trees.    :)

If you're attaching to a 1' sapling maybe...

They aren't nails, they're tacks (a pin), and usually aren't long enough to really do damage  (punching through) the cambium layer.

 

We still find our surveyor's tape in the dark, on the way back in areas we had to bushwhack a good distance, and that's just hi-vis green. 

 - Simply a maybe foot-long piece attached to a branch tip.   We reuse 'em if anyone's curious...

We've seen reflective surveyor's tape, but that would be seen in the day as well.     The tacks are supposed to be "stealthy".

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3 minutes ago, hukilaulau said:

Can you point to anything in the guidelines that prohibits fire tacks?

from: https://www.geocaching.com/play/guidelines

 

Quote

Do not harm plants, animals, or environment

Do not harm plant or animal life when you place your cache. Do not place caches in a location that requires or encourages geocachers to harm plant or animal life. In some areas, geocaching activity may need to cease for portions of the year due to sensitivity of some species.

The only exception is if a property owner gives explicit permission to attach a cache to a tree with hardware (for example, with nails). In this case, you must provide the explicit permission to the reviewer and state it on the cache page.


I guess fire tacks could come into the "nails" category, though I agree that they're unlikely to cause any damage and have seen them used with no problems.

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7 hours ago, MartyBartfast said:

I guess fire tacks could come into the "nails" category...

 

Yeah, I'd been thinking that the difference between a nail and a tack is just size, it's still a bit of metal being pushed into the tree.

 

7 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

 ...fire tack markers don't do damage to full-sized trees.

 

Thank  you, pretty much the information I was looking for.

 

2 hours ago, lee737 said:

the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time....

 

Very true, and there are many threads on the forums regarding tree nailing. If there's a rule or guideline, I'd prefer to follow it. And GC said no nails - though that's specifically for attaching caches to trees. Since the trail markers are much smaller and lighter, they don't need to go as deep or be as large.

 

Thank you everyone for your input.

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3 hours ago, lee737 said:

Funny, the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens.....

 

Those organisations are the owners of the trees, and if it is their property, they can do with it what ever they want.

 

It is totally okay for you to screw a 2'' screw into the hood your car, but we'll bet you're going to be mad, if we do that.

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For my last NC I use for example bike spike reflectors mounted with GaffaTape on very thin tree branches from big trees in 3-4m high.

For Example that one or simular:

Salzmann 3M Scotchlite Speichenreflektoren für Fahrradspeichen, StVZO zugelassen (36 Stück): Amazon.de: Sport & Freizeit

Greetings Johannis10

PS: You can cut eache reflektor to get twice the number.

Edited by Johannis10
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8 hours ago, lee737 said:

Funny, the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens.....

 

So that means that everyone should be able to nail signs to trees?  What do you suppose the the trees would look like if anyone could do it.

The national park service might do it because they manage the park.  Letting anyone do it wouldn't be managing the park very well.

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17 hours ago, lee737 said:

Funny, the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens.....

 

1 hour ago, lee737 said:
8 hours ago, NYPaddleCacher said:

So that means that everyone should be able to nail signs to trees?

I don't recall advocating for that - you've come to the wrong conclusion there.

 

 

OK, so what is your point when you said "the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens....."? 

Edited by L0ne.R
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On 12/16/2020 at 8:31 AM, GerandKat said:

It is totally okay for you to screw a 2'' screw into the hood your car, but we'll bet you're going to be mad, if we do that.

For my last NC I don't use reflectors at car's, as showen in the Listingpicture, but I use reflectors at metal parts. For that I take refektor-tape, for example simular than: 3M Reflektierendes Band selbstklebend Warnmarkierung für PKZ, LKW, Fahrrad - 1M x 55mm: Amazon.de: Auto

To get litte 5mm circles, I use a office-hole-puncher. It's more easy to mount that, and it's more easy to get a permission, than mounting a reflector with  2"screws;).

Greetings Johannis10

Edited by Johannis10
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On 12/15/2020 at 10:45 PM, lee737 said:

Funny, the national park service here just nail signs into trees all the time.... doesn't seem to bother them.... as does our Royal Botanic Gardens.....

 

Besides the ownership issue others have mentioned, signs are usually permanent in the sense they are intended to be there indefinitely. Geocaches aren't supposed to be temporary but their lifespan is generally much much shorter than a sign.

 

Hopefully park management is also making educated, informed decisions about what trees they attach the signs to - species, size, age, health - and what kind of nails/screws are used. Most geocachers don't have the botanical knowledge to make such decisions.

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On 12/16/2020 at 5:13 PM, lee737 said:

I was referring to it not really bothering the trees. I do advocate for a 'leave no trace' policy for our caches, includes trees.....

Hum a geocache is against the 'leave no trace' policy BTW you leave a container behind and a geotrail to get to it.

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1 hour ago, Lynx Humble said:

Hum a geocache is against the 'leave no trace' policy BTW you leave a container behind and a geotrail to get to it.

 

Not according to the Leave No Trace people.  OK, sure, leave no geotrail.  But a container with permission is just like any other item approved by a land owner.  It's OK to "leave the container behind" due to approval to leave the container behind.  Same with the land owner/manager nailing signs to trees, those are their trees.

 

Edited by kunarion
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11 hours ago, lee737 said:
14 hours ago, Lynx Humble said:

Hum a geocache is against the 'leave no trace' policy BTW you leave a container behind and a geotrail to get to it.

Pot/kettle?

 

Not necessarily. 

 

Follow the guidelines.

 

As finders we would never leave throwdowns, and report any damage to the cache or environment. 

 

As hiders we would act quickly on reports. We would monitor and maintain what we leave behind. Remove that item when we no longer want to monitor and maintain it. We would not damage the area when placing the cache so that when the cache is removed there would be no trace. If geotrails form, the cache could be moved, or removed and archived.  

 

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