What makes a good letterbox or multi?

[+Korichnovui]

Hi guys,

 

I was thinking about setting a goal to make at least 1 of each type of cache. I haven't done very many multi-cache or letterbox, though. I want to make good, high quality caches so I thought I'd ask for advice.

1. What factors do you think go into a great multicache?

2. What factors do you think go into a great letterbox hybrid?

[+Isonzo Karst]

1. a reason for the stages, beyond just to be a multi-cache. They either show you something worth seeing, or show you routing... not just stages for the sake of stages

2. start by hand carving a properly themed stamp

for both types, (or any cache) put the cache somewhere worth going to

[+cerberus1]

To me, a fun (I haven't done any "great" yet) multi can be a simple two-stage, or a multi day walk as long as it has some purpose for having me do it. 

 The CO thought enough to include that it takes me back to where I parked, not just ending in the middle of no where, which is kind of a let down (for me) 

 

Any Letterbox that actually has a stamp in it is "great" to me.

Edited June 30, 2018 by cerberus1
redundant redundant

[Blue Square Thing]

Multi caches can be great ways of discovering new cities - they're one of the things I look for if I'm on holiday in a city for some reason. The stages can open up places that I might have not gone to or simply not seen at all. You can do that in the countryside as well of course, but they work particularly well (with virtual stages) in cities I think. When they're really, really good they tell a story in some way as well - one of my absolutely favourite caches to find was https://coord.info/GC5KKAH which does that brilliantly.

 

They can also be used to simply ensure that it makes a cache more than a drive by (I have one like that). Obviously it's not the best reason to hide it as a multi, but it does seem to work. Or to take people somewhere where it's not actually possible to hide a cache (I have one like that as well - you get to visit a remote 12th century church on an old-school private estate in a nature conservation zone, somewhere I could never hide a physical cache and where you can't drive to but is fantastic to visit).

 

For letterboxes, I would never set one that didn't involve compass use in some way. That's what really makes a letterbox for me - the stamp is nice, but if you want a proper letterbox it really needs to involve compass directions. 

[+STNolan]

I'll add that a multi doesn't always have to include PHYSICAL stages. I own two multi caches that are upwards of 10 stages that include sites such as statues, plaques and other notable sites. For reference:

• GC7KX27 - Welcome to Juneau: A Monumental Hunt
• GC6Q3CP - The Parks of Newport Multi Cache

What I like about these type of multis are: 

1. Each stage takes you somewhere at least somewhat meaningful and
2. They are easier to maintain as there is only one physical cache component

As a note you should understand that by their very nature multis turn off some cachers. Don't expect nearly as many finds on a multi, even a well crafted one, as you will get on a  simple traditional. That's just the nature of the beast. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by STNolan

[+Max and 99]

I like the micro letterboxes but my usual stamp is too big for the log books so I either don't stamp or have to return later with a mini. This might help you when planning your letterbox.

[+barefootjeff]

Multis that showcase an area can be a lot of fun. Two of my stand-out favourites are on Lord Howe Island (GC5KKQ8 and GC5K9KJ), with GC5GTEE at Watsons Bay on Sydney Harbour another good one. Multis can also tell a story, like my Lost Sheriff of Middle Sea County which starts at the remains of a camp fire and follows objects dropped by the sheriff.

[+Harry Dolphin]

5 hours ago, Blue Square Thing said:

For letterboxes, I would never set one that didn't involve compass use in some way. That's what really makes a letterbox for me - the stamp is nice, but if you want a proper letterbox it really needs to involve compass directions. 

 

I hate the ones with set a course this many feet in this direction.  Though I can solve those from home:  Project a waypoint.  To me, Letterbox Hybrids should be follow letterbox style.  Go here.  Follow the blue path to the giant rock &c.  

[+Korichnovui]

Wow thanks for all the great responses

 

The 1 letterbox I did was a simple "go this way off the path and look for X", it was very simple but it seems like there's a lot of potential. I'll try to find 1 or 2 more, though they seem pretty rare where I'm at. I've read a bit about letterboxing and I'm going to try to understand the history/heritage of it before I make my own.

I'd be very interested in the type of letterbox that gives you instructions that cannot be solved ahead of time, only once you are at the geozone. But perhaps a compass could be used rudimentarily? "Look in the direction of approximately X degrees and note Y feature"

 

For the multis, I totally get what you're saying about making the stages meaningful and also telling a story. There's one in my town that I spent a lot of time on, it had an art theme, had to visit various public art pieces and count something about the piece to decipher the final. I thought that was pretty neat.

Also, we are taking a family trip to a beach town next month, and I've got my eye on a couple of multis that are meant to "showcase the town". I'll see how those work out.

[+Korichnovui]

New question about letterboxing --

Any concerns about durability of the stamp in subfreezing weather? Anything I should be aware of there? Temperatures can dip below freezing where I live. I might as well add that it can get over 100 degrees F in the summer, too.

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

Any concerns about durability of the stamp in subfreezing weather? Anything I should be aware of there? Temperatures can dip below freezing where I live. I might as well add that it can get over 100 degrees F in the summer, too.

 

According to the guidelines the stamp must be made of rubber. I don't know any rubber type which suffers from freezing or boiling temperatures. Practically no one is using the stamp. I wouldn't worry about the durability anyway.

[Blue Square Thing]

9 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

The 1 letterbox I did was a simple "go this way off the path and look for X", it was very simple but it seems like there's a lot of potential. I'll try to find 1 or 2 more, though they seem pretty rare where I'm at. I've read a bit about letterboxing and I'm going to try to understand the history/heritage of it before I make my own.

I'd be very interested in the type of letterbox that gives you instructions that cannot be solved ahead of time, only once you are at the geozone. But perhaps a compass could be used rudimentarily? "Look in the direction of approximately X degrees and note Y feature"

 

The letterbox I have hidden is one that can't be solved at home - you have to take some numbers from a postbox at the starting point and substitute those into the instructions to get distances and directions. It seems to work well, although relatively few people do it (which I'm totally happy about). That's one way to do it.

 

Most of the ones here are simply boxes with stamps in and it's rare you find anything like a true letterbox style. Which is, I think, a shame.

 

Quote

For the multis, I totally get what you're saying about making the stages meaningful and also telling a story. There's one in my town that I spent a lot of time on, it had an art theme, had to visit various public art pieces and count something about the piece to decipher the final. I thought that was pretty neat.

 

That's a good idea for one certainly and exactly the sort of thing I'd look for in a multi cache.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Blue Square Thing

[+Isonzo Karst]

Stamp material, I'm using a product sold for carving  (speedy-carve).  Big hunks of eraser are used too, generally eraser is  grainy, will crumble -  okay to practice with, cheap, and you might do okay with one, given a simple design.  Lots of materials used for stamps, assorted synthetics ~"rubber" , foam (think mouse pad), leather,  wood etc

 

Do NOT put ink in LBH.   Letterboxers carry their own. In boxes, it freezes and goes haywire, dries out, or worst of all, bleeds all over everything.   LBH sites will tell you this.

 

 

 

[+cerberus1]

8 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

Any concerns about durability of the stamp in subfreezing weather?

 

The few we've found that had a stamp in them, the stamp wasn't an issue.  Most people use synthetics for stamps today.

As Isonzo Karst said, your biggest concern is ink.  We found two with ink pads in 'em.  One shot, the other not.

[+coachstahly]

On 6/30/2018 at 6:54 PM, Harry Dolphin said:

 

I hate the ones with set a course this many feet in this direction.  Though I can solve those from home:  Project a waypoint.  To me, Letterbox Hybrids should be follow letterbox style.  Go here.  Follow the blue path to the giant rock &c.  

 

Our reviewer has told us that all LBHs need to have some GPS usage, which the project the waypoint idea does well enough to satisfy the reviewer in order to get it published.  The rest of my LBH description is done with the traditional letterbox directions.  I don't mind the project only ones, but certainly prefer a more traditional take on the LBH.

[+coachstahly]

On 6/30/2018 at 11:47 AM, Korichnovui said:

1. What factors do you think go into a great multicache?

2. What factors do you think go into a great letterbox hybrid?

 

1.  Depends on what your purpose is with a multi cache.  If it's to provide a challenge for cachers to accomplish and use as a possible benchmark (we have a VERY highly rated one about an hour east that gets found for benchmark numbers quite a bit), then by all means, place it.  If it's to provide a tour using plaques and statues (I call those types more European in nature, than American), then by all means, place it.  Cemetery markers of note, themed, gadget involved, field puzzle, etc..  There are a variety of reasons to create your own multi.  They're my favorite type, so I'm somewhat biased and usually enjoy each one I do.  I did one today based around Finding Nemo that had a QR code, a Nemo puzzle with coordinates on the back, Nemo dominoes with coordinates, and a Nemo taped final, with Nemo swag.  Cute and well done, even if I'm a bit out of the age range of that particular demographic.

 

2.  I think one big thing is to have the stamp related to the theme of the cache.  I'll usually peruse the stamp aisle at a couple of the local A&C stores when there's a sale and almost always come away with a stamp (I purchase 2, to have a back up if the first goes MIA) that I can use as the theme for a LBH.  I've found quite a few, but the ones I remember the most are the ones where the stamp is tied into the theme of the cache.  Any LBH that's had a stamp in it, I've taken an imprint of the stamp for my LBH notebook.  That way, I get to reminisce whenever I open it up!

[+coachstahly]

16 hours ago, Isonzo Karst said:

Do NOT put ink in LBH.   Letterboxers carry their own. In boxes, it freezes and goes haywire, dries out, or worst of all, bleeds all over everything.   LBH sites will tell you this.

 

 

I disagree, to an extent.  I KNOW that ink has the possibility of bleeding so I keep the ink pad as separated as possible, and not just in a baggie.  I usually have some sort of small box (separate from everything else) that has the ability to stay shut (clasps, snaps, etc...) and easily fits within the larger outer container, placed within its own baggie as well.  

 

I have 3 I placed and adopted a few others (which were done in a manner I wouldn't have done them).  The ones I've placed, the ink is in its own container within an ammo can.  The ONLY ink pad I have that's NOT in an ammo can is actually a challenge, a challenge of the century (100 LBH finds) with a 100 stamp.  It uses the projected waypoint and then traditional letterbox instructions to get to the challenge.  To this point, it's NOT leaked at all and is still in good shape.

[+Fugads]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:47 AM, Korichnovui said:

1. What factors do you think go into a great multicache?

2. What factors do you think go into a great letterbox hybrid?

1. The two things I like best about multi caches is the ability for them to provide a really fun and adventurous route, and also their ability to surprise you with a destination that you may not have expected. The latter is more unique to multis, as you can get a fun adventure from linking a bunch of Traditional hides along a route. I kept a bookmark list for a while of favorite multis I've encountered over the years. Most have a really high T rating... that's where my preferences lie. You're welcome to check it out though and see if it offers any inspiration. The ability for a multi-cache to take a geocacher to some unique spot, but without the knowledge beforehand of exactly where they'll end up... that's the key.
2. For letterboxes I'll second what Isonzo Karst stated; a thematically appropriate stamp, preferably hand-carved is what makes a good LBH in my book. I get pretty disappointed with some of the "random" letterbox hides that have simple cheap stamps that having nothing to do with the hide location or theme of the hide in any way. Someone simply had a smiley face stamp so they decided their cache would be a letterbox... or something. I keep a separate letterboxing journal and it is really cool to go through it and see where I've collected stamps, and what amazing stamps can be found. I suspect not many geocachers use these though.

[+redsox_mark]

On 6/30/2018 at 11:22 PM, barefootjeff said:

Multis that showcase an area can be a lot of fun. Two of my stand-out favourites are on Lord Howe Island (GC5KKQ8 and GC5K9KJ), with GC5GTEE at Watsons Bay on Sydney Harbour another good one. Multis can also tell a story, like my Lost Sheriff of Middle Sea County which starts at the remains of a camp fire and follows objects dropped by the sheriff.

 

I agree.   My favourite multis either:

 

1.  Take me to multiple interesting places (history etc); where there may not be options for physical caches at each... or

2.  The multi tells a good fictional story.    The best of these works in both virtual (existing) objects which fit the story, and hiding new physical stages which are in theme.   E.g. one about the story of a missing geocacher, you find his shoe, then his glove.. etc.   

 

The fact that the route is not known from the start also adds to the interest for me.   

[+L0ne.R]

35 minutes ago, Fugads said:

For letterboxes I'll second what Isonzo Karst stated; a thematically appropriate stamp, preferably hand-carved is what makes a good LBH in my book.

 

I'll third it. I stopped bothering to specifically look for letterboxes because the stamp was an "if I want this cache type icon I better throw any old cheap stamp in there". The stamp should be collectible, unique, something that proves you were at that particular letterbox. 

 

As for multis, tell me how long it's expected to take. Tell me how many stages are involved. Is it a walking multi or do I have to get back in the car? 

And check it occasionally to make sure all stages are intact and the final is there and in decent shape. 

 

[+arisoft]

On 2.7.2018 at 6:41 AM, coachstahly said:

Our reviewer has told us that all LBHs need to have some GPS usage

 

This is only partially true. It is not explained very clear in guidellines but there is an extemption.

 

Quote

As with all geocaches, this cache type must include GPS usage. In addition, the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container.

 

For a normal geocache, for example a multi-cache, you are not allowed to bypass the GPS usage by telling the address for every stage by other means than using GPS, but with LBH, you can do this. The GPS usage is only optional method for LBH.  You only have to make it possible to use GPS somehow, even it is not practically needed at all.

Edited July 3, 2018 by arisoft

[+JL_HSTRE]

My favorite use of a multi is as a psuedo virtual. Either an offset (posted coords + final) or a walking tour. In either case, only the Final is physical. 

 

Otherwise, what I can an epic multi: a half-day or all day adventure on a long hike, with the intervening stages serving as waypoints.

 

I usually hate when multis have no purpose except to be a multi. S1, S2, and Final could just as easily be three Traditional. That said, the one time I found a cache called "Why Did The Chicken Cross The Road" where the stages were on opposite sides of the street were funny. I'm also not a big fan of multis spread over a very long distance. The farthest stages I've found was called OTL. First part was at the ocean beach, the second was on the lakefront at the opposite end of the county. I didn't get them the same day. The locations were at least related and it was kind of amusing. 

[+Fugads]

1 hour ago, JL_HSTRE said:

I usually hate when multis have no purpose except to be a multi. S1, S2, and Final could just as easily be three Traditional.

 

This is interesting. I feel the exact opposite. Why put a string of traditional caches along a trail when you can accomplish the same thing with a single multi? I guess there are various logistical reasons. The CO of a bunch of traditionals has the option of archiving any one without having to do maintenance on the whole lot. Seems like a bit of a cop-out to me. If COs are doing this, to me it indicates that they are not really that interested in maintaining their hides. From a finders perspective, having a bunch of traditionals means they can better prepare for what they are getting into, and if one cache is not found they can continue on to the rest. I can see some value in that. Depending on how the CO creates the listing for a multi, you may not know exactly the route you will be taking or what you are getting into. But I can't think of any examples of this. Every long multi I have done has good write-ups so you know what to expect and how to prepare. This holds true even for the ones that have surprising route-finding challenges and your final destination is not entirely clear. I just love those kinds of experiences.

 

One other point that I like about a single Multi vs. a string of Trads is that both the CO and finders can put more thought into what they write about the a single Multi. As a CO, you can put a bunch of effort into a good write up on the one cache listing. If you broke it up into a bunch of traditionals, you would either have copy-paste information on each, or somehow break up the information for each cache. I'm not expressing this well... but the feeling I get is that for a single multi-cache, you can very clearly state what you expect the experience to be like. And if you break it up into several individual caches, you still want people to experience the whole string, but cannot be sure that's really what people will be doing, so you need to piece-meal together various cache listings, encouraging people to complete the whole experience. Same goes for logging the finds. I'd much rather write one nice log on a caching experience that took me to lots of different places, than have to write a bunch of separate logs for different legs of the journey. The one consolidated log gives a better story and is more worht sharing with a CO in my opinion. The separate logs for each leg of the journey can create the same story, but depending on how you break up the lgos it may be difficult to follow. Or maybe you copy-paste the whole story on each log? This has its own down-sides. As a CO I never like to see the same thing posted over and over again. But then, hiding a series of traditionals that are meant to be found as a single hike may be begging people to do this.

 

Anyhow, interesting point that you brought up about multi caches. I'd love to get other peoples takes.

[+niraD]

6 hours ago, arisoft said:

This is only partially true. It is not explained very clear in guidellines but there is an extemption.

There is no exemption for LBH caches.

 

6 hours ago, arisoft said:

For a normal geocache, for example a multi-cache, you are not allowed to bypass the GPS usage by telling the address for every stage by other means than using GPS, but with LBH, you can do this. The GPS usage is only optional method for LBH.  You only have to make it possible to use GPS somehow, even it is not practically needed at all.

This does not match what volunteer reviewers have told me about LBH caches.

 

LBH caches, just like other caches, must involve GPS usage and accurate coordinates. There can be other (letterbox-style clues) navigation, but at some point, there must also be GPS usage and accurate coordinates.

 

For example, an LBH cache can use accurate coordinates for the start of the letterbox-style clues at a specific location (not a general location like a parking lot or a trailhead). Or an LBH cache can use letterbox-style clues to produce coordinates, and then use those coordinates for the final.

[+coachstahly]

26 minutes ago, Fugads said:

Why put a string of traditional caches along a trail when you can accomplish the same thing with a single multi?

 

I have a multi along a popular rails to trails that could have been 2 (maybe 3 if I REALLY squeezed) traditional caches.  Rather than add to a string of traditionals (not mine but other COs), I opted to place a multi.  Not only does this break up some of the monotony, it also counterbalances, to some small extent, the power trail concept inherent on this trail.  I would argue that this isn't really a power trail in the truest sense.  While the caches are pretty close to .10 apart, they're certainly NOT all quick park and grabs.  However, it certainly looks like a power trail on the map.  My multi has more stages than most people would prefer, so it doesn't get visited too often, except by those wanting a challenge and a change to their caching, but it offers up something different than 95% of what's on the trail, which are almost all traditionals.

[+arisoft]

54 minutes ago, niraD said:

This does not match what volunteer reviewers have told me about LBH caches.

 

I just quoted the guidelines. You must argue with someone else.

[+MartyBartfast]

5 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

I just quoted the guidelines. You must argue with someone else.

 

You misinterpreted the text which you quoted:

Quote

As with all geocaches, this cache type must include GPS usage. In addition, the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container.

 

Which means for example a LBH could include "go to the GPS coords" followed by additional instructions "then walk 50 paces North, where you will find the cache under a rock".
It does NOT mean for example  "go to the GPS co ords, or alternatively go to the number 9 bus stop on the High Street".

Admittedly it's poorly worded (which is nothing new for GS guidelines),  but I think the meaning is well understood.

So GPS usage is NOT optional for LBH caches.

[+arisoft]

14 minutes ago, MartyBartfast said:

Admittedly it's poorly worded

 

It depends on which interpretation is preferred. I am sure that many LBH caches can be found without any GPS usage. Do you have different feeling about this matter?

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, niraD said:

There is no exemption for LBH caches.

 

Then what is this, " the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container", if it is not an extemption? Why it is here if it does not mean anything?

Edited July 3, 2018 by arisoft

[+coachstahly]

 

3 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Then what is this, " the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container", if it is not an extemption? Why it is here if it does not mean anything?

 

"Can" implies that it may have written instructions as well, just not that they're required.  It's not an exemption, but an inclusion that's allowed, and in good LBH hides, preferred.  The relevant point about GPS usage is in the sentence prior to the one you quote above.  "As with all geocaches, this cache type must include GPS usage."  It's a hybrid, which means that it's a combination between a geocache and a letterbox.  If it is both (and it is), there MUST be some GPS usage to get it published to meet the geocache portion of the LBH.  How much usage, as well as what type, would be dependent upon what the reviewer has to say about the GPS usage in the LBH.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

I am sure that many LBH caches can be found without any GPS usage. Do you have different feeling about this matter?

All the LBH caches I have found have started at a specific location using accurate GPS coordinates, and then used letterbox-style clues to navigate to the final location. The requirement for GPS usage and accurate coordinates is met getting to the start location. Nothing requires that the final location be found using GPS coordinates, and I have found a number of multi-caches and mystery/puzzle caches that used other techniques to locate the final as well.

 

All the LBH caches that I have seen listed have either been the type described above, or they have been traditional caches with a stamp. All of them have used accurate GPS coordinates.

 

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

Then what is this, " the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container", if it is not an extemption? Why it is here if it does not mean anything?

You missed a couple important words: "In addition, the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container."

 

Accurate GPS coordinates are a given. For a traditional with a stamp, the LBH cache is located entirely with accurate GPS coordinates. Other LBH caches can be located using clues, in addition to the use of accurate GPS coordinates.

[+arisoft]

48 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

"Can" implies that it may have written instructions as well, just not that they're required.  It's not an exemption, but an inclusion that's allowed

 

You understand that allowing to follow the written instructions may totally eliminate the need for the GPS usage, which is said to be mandatory, right?

From my view, allowing to add written instructions is an extemption to this mandatory part of the cache. For LBH it is still mandatory to offer a way to use GPS but you are allowed to bypass this by written instructions, which is the extemption I mean. If you try this with other cache types the rewiewer may find the GPS usage part not sufficient.

[+arisoft]

3 minutes ago, niraD said:

All the LBH caches I have found have started at a specific location using accurate GPS coordinates

 

Your limited experience explains your attitude. Letterbox caches were invented before GPS. Some of them really do have written instructions instead of accurate coordinates you need to start. To make them a LBH you have to add final coordinates to the LBH cache description to fullfill the GPS usage requirement.

[+niraD]

3 minutes ago, arisoft said:

 

Your limited experience explains your attitude. Letterbox caches were invented before GPS. Some of them really do have written instructions instead of accurate coordinates you need to start. To make them a LBH you have to add final coordinates to the LBH cache description to fullfill the GPS usage requirement.

You seem to be confusing Letterbox-Hybrid Caches with Letterboxes.

 

Letterboxes existed before geocaching, and may or may not use GPS coordinates. Letterbox-Hybrid Caches started with geocaching, and require accurate GPS coordinates as part of the cache design.

 

And FWIW, I have seen many LBH listings. I just haven't bothered searching for the traditionals with a stamp.

[+arisoft]

2 minutes ago, niraD said:

You seem to be confusing Letterbox-Hybrid Caches with Letterboxes.

 

Not at all. Maybe you did not know that some Letterbox caches are also LBH caches. That hybrid is possible because this extemption to GPS usage rules that the cache description may contain written instructions used instead of GPS. The same clue works for both.

[Keystone]

arisoft, I'm sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of letterbox hybrid caches.  Please accept that so the discussion can get back onto the topic of what makes for a GOOD letterbox hybrid or multi cache.

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

arisoft, I'm sorry, but you have a misunderstanding of letterbox hybrid caches.  Please accept that so the discussion can get back onto the topic of what makes for a GOOD letterbox hybrid or multi cache.

 

In that case it would be vital to understand the LBH guideline right to make them GOOD. If we can not understand the guideline how can we make creative and innovative good caches? Most LBH caches in Finland have been made different way what niraD has experienced.

Edited July 3, 2018 by arisoft

[Blue Square Thing]

2 hours ago, arisoft said:

 

It depends on which interpretation is preferred. I am sure that many LBH caches can be found without any GPS usage. Do you have different feeling about this matter?

 

I find 75% of all the caches I look for without using a GPS device at all, so that's pretty much true for most caches - although multi caches and some unknown types are more difficult to do in that way.

 

Oe of the things I look for when I set a multi cache with virtual stages is to make it difficult to find the answers to too many of the stages without actually visiting the locations - I think carefully about the locations I want to take people to to make them worth visiting in themselves, so I try to make it difficult to find all the answers at home and then go straight to the final location. Sometimes I wonder if people think in the same sort of way. It's something I would recommend the OP did if they were looking to use virtual stages (which I think can make an excellent cache).

Edited July 3, 2018 by Blue Square Thing

[Keystone]

The sole distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterbox stamp. You can have a traditional, multi cache or mystery cache design, but it becomes a letterbox hybrid the instant that you add a stamp. 

 

Since traditional, multi and mystery caches all require GPS usage to be available as an integral part of the cache hunt, then by definition all letterbox hybrid caches require GPS usage. 

[+niraD]

On 6/30/2018 at 8:47 AM, Korichnovui said:

1. What factors do you think go into a great multicache?

I'd like each stage to have a purpose (other than getting information needed to find the final), and I'd like each stage to relate to the theme of the multi-cache. Most of the multi-caches on my Favorites list are walking tours, with the various stages taking me to examples of public art, or to other related locations that are worth visiting for their own sake. One took me on a museum tour. Another took me on a boat tour of a man-made lagoon. One took me on a tour of the various wetlands that are part of a local wildlife refuge, requiring more than 50 miles of driving to the various trailheads, and several miles of hiking to the various stages.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 8:47 AM, Korichnovui said:

2. What factors do you think go into a great letterbox hybrid?

I am not interested in the "traditional with a stamp" style of LBH. All the LBH caches that I've done have used clues to get from a specific start location (meeting the requirement for GPS usage and accurate GPS coordinates) to the final location. For what it's worth, I've also found multi-caches and mystery caches that worked in a similar manner, but didn't have a stamp to make them LBH caches. As such, for me, a great LBH is all about the clues, and the path taken to the final location. It should be an interesting adventure, with interesting clues that make sense when I'm in the right location.

 

(My apologies to everyone for returning to the original topic.  )

[+arisoft]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

Since traditional, multi and mystery caches all require GPS usage to be available as an integral part of the cache hunt, then by definition all letterbox hybrid caches require GPS usage. 

 

In Finland we have many LBH caches (almost every) which do not require GPS usage. The player can choose whether to use GPS or not, which makes these more interesting caches than any base cache type itself. If the LBH forces the player to use GPS we may call it a fake LBH.

 

Here is one example which I visited recently.  https://coord.info/GC6TJ91 and here is another https://coord.info/GC55B5P

 

The player can find the cache by following letterbox clue or by following the GPS. You should find the cache both ways but you do not need GPS and the clue.These caches do not  require GPS usage but that opportunity is available.

 

My experience is that with other cache types than LBH, reviewers may not accept using Letterbox style clues to bypass the GPS usage part ot the cache. At least once my mystery cache was denied because the reviewer thought that a player could guess the final position without using the hint from the given coordinates as planned.

Edited July 3, 2018 by arisoft

[+cerberus1]

4 minutes ago, niraD said:

 All the LBH caches that I've done have used clues to get from a specific start location (meeting the requirement for GPS usage and accurate GPS coordinates) to the final location.

 

All but one, same here. 

The few we've done, coordinates on the cache page refer to the starting point, and then you use direction from there.  Most were in other containers, like stages, rather than written out on the cache page. 

A couple I haven't done (pmos),  we've been able to figure where that final is just by direction on the cache page.

 One used a few waypoint projections to the final, using GPS (or a compass) the entire time.

 

[+coachstahly]

1 hour ago, arisoft said:

Here is one example which I visited recently.  https://coord.info/GC6TJ91 and here is another https://coord.info/GC55B5P

 

In your examples, the final of the LBH is at the posted coordinates.  Basically, it's a traditional geocache with a stamp inside and the written instructions aren't required to help find the LBH; they're optional.  

 

I've done a couple like this (none of them stood out) but most of the ones I believe others in this topic are talking about, in concurrence with being labeled "good", is that the posted coordinates are a starting point (where you use your GPS to get there) and you use the written directions to get you to the final LBH (the final coordinates being hidden from the cacher's view).  In this set up, it's more like a "traditional" letterbox.  Cachers are required to use both the GPS AND the written directions in order to locate the final hiding spot.  Those are the ones I enjoy the most.  Here's an example of one I enjoyed doing that uses the GPS to get you to the starting point and from that point on, you MUST use the provided instructions to be able to locate the final, those coordinates being hidden from view (but required for publication due to the saturation guideline).

https://coord.info/GC2BPGW

[+arisoft]

7 minutes ago, coachstahly said:

I believe others in this topic are talking about, in concurrence with being labeled "good", is that the posted coordinates are a starting point (where you use your GPS to get there) and you use the written directions to get you to the final LBH

 

This is the type we may call "fake LBH" if you can not find the cache using the clue only - you need also GPS. I make this type of cache as multi-cache to save the stamp.

 

The most interesting type of LBH we have in Finland is combination of mystery cache and letterbox clue. For the player, it is the most easiest to follow the clue which do not have any coordinates or GPS use at all. The starting location is given in the written instructions. To satisfy the GPS use availability, as Keystone worded instead of requirement, the cache has an optional puzzle.

 

Here is an example https://coord.info/GC6QQT9

 

You don't need any coordinates or GPS to find the cache. But if you want to use your GPS, you must only solve the puzzle and find the GZ with the solution. The intention is to make the clue so attractive and puzzle so hard that almost everyone will get the intented full letterboxing experience.

 

 

[+Korichnovui]

What excites me about the letterbox hybrid is the ability to give instructions of some sort in a GPS-free, nontraditional way. I suppose this could also be done with multi-cache, though. So the addition of a unique, interesting stamp to complete the "theme" or "story" seems important to distinguish it. That said, I'm not very artistic in the way of carving and such. I have designed a stamp or two on websites, though, which turned out well, and hopefully that will be "good enough" if the stamp image ends up unique and fitting for the overall experience.

[+arisoft]

2 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

What excites me about the letterbox hybrid is the ability to give instructions of some sort in a GPS-free, nontraditional way. I suppose this could also be done with multi-cache, though. So the addition of a unique, interesting stamp to complete the "theme" or "story" seems important to distinguish it. That said, I'm not very artistic in the way of carving and such. I have designed a stamp or two on websites, though, which turned out well, and hopefully that will be "good enough" if the stamp image ends up unique and fitting for the overall experience.

 

This is the feature which I believe is behind the LBH guideline, "the cache description can contain written instructions to guide geocachers to the container". Mystery cache guideline do not have this extemption or this is just a bogus guideline if Keystone is right. You could try to make a mystery with two ways to find, letterbox clue or a difficult math problem. The player can choose which way to go.

[+Korichnovui]

To be clear, I understand the  stipulation that GPS needs to be used at some point, commonly as a starting place. I'm fine with that.

[+arisoft]

3 hours ago, Korichnovui said:

To be clear, I understand the  stipulation that GPS needs to be used at some point, commonly as a starting place. I'm fine with that.

 

To be more clear the correct statement is what Keystone wrote earlier in this thread. Can you see the difference?

 

20 hours ago, Keystone said:

Since traditional, multi and mystery caches all require GPS usage to be available as an integral part of the cache hunt, then by definition all letterbox hybrid caches require GPS usage. 

 

This difference may not clear even to all reviewers. The new aspect to me is that this may be true also for multi- and mystery-caches, if Keystone is correct.

 

I give you an example, where GPS usage is available but not needed. A mystery cache which contains a hint image of the cache. You can find the cache by finding the place where the picture is taken. There is no way to use GPS in this method but it may be easy if you can recognize the place from the image. Or you can decrypt the steganography message from the image by using a randomly chosen password which you must guess correctly before you can read the final coordinates from the image file. This nearly impossible task should be sufficient to make the GPS usage available for this cache.

[+Korichnovui]

I know the reviewers in my area well enough by now that such a hide would be faulted due the ability to solve it without the use of GPS. It would be difficult to get it published. I know because I’ve already had some back and forth with them on puzzle caches I made that use aerial footage for part of the puzzle. I went to extra lengths to make sure that GPS needed to be used.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Korichnovui

[+niraD]

53 minutes ago, Korichnovui said:

I know the reviewers in my area well enough by now that such a hide would be faulted due the ability to solve it without the use of GPS. It would be difficult to get it published. I know because I’ve already had some back and forth with them on puzzle caches I made that use aerial footage for part of the puzzle. I went to extra lengths to make sure that GPS needed to be used.

Yep. I've seen a number of caches that primarily used some other navigation technique, but at some point along the way, they had accurate GPS coordinates for a specific location to satisfy the GPS usage requirement.