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Doc_musketeers

One climber... multiple loggers

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40 minutes ago, niraD said:

There was a time when it was considered considerate for a CO to design a multi-stage cache so that the route looped back, with the final near where people would have parked for the first stage. Now, such consideration leaves your cache subject to hacking.

Agreed.  We're seeing that with "lonely" hides now.  At an event, one told by another what I went through for one said, "you should have just called me".  Turned out she kept the final coordinates for all she "found", and many she didn't get to yet (coords provided by others).  None of the caches were hers.  People "finding" 4+T caches 100' from parking. Sheesh...   I don't help anymore with hints for caches not mine, and never would give out a final.  Not liked by a few here.  ;)  Things sure have changed...

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When I go caching with a group, we all climb the tree.  Hey, here we are now.  See me waving?

 

508106072b.jpg

Edited by kunarion
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Well, my wife and I made the climb for the T4.5 from the OP this morning. We tried to do our best with the added controversy of dealing with a broken container (yes we had to leave a replacement log, yes we posted an NM).  

But we BOTH made the climb, in fact I made it twice because somehow we ended up on top without either of our phones. (I didn’t even realize we could still detach them from our hands, geez, just imbed a chip in our brains and get it over with!). I clambered down and back up for some “summit” pics. Personally, I’d rate it a 3.5 at most, but I guess needing to time it with the tide can be considered added “terrain” difficulty. No sign of our non-aquaintence couple, but we gave them a shout out in our log. This is a fun spot. Worth the climb even without a cache. I can see why it gets found by muggles, the rock is an obvious magnet for reckless adolescent climbing, it even entices those of us who should know better, lol.

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1 hour ago, kunarion said:

When I go caching with a group, we all climb the tree.  Hey, here we are now.  See me waving?

 

508106072b.jpg

 

Oh, yes. I remember that. Who was it that yelled TIGER! :D

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1 hour ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Well, my wife and I made the climb for the T4.5 from the OP this morning.

Cool.  :)

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17 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

You can't blame people for not following the rules.

 

I guess that is the change I'm not willing to accept in geocaching. Leave it as good or better than you found it for the next seekers, or flag it accordingly should be simple enough for everyone.

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Makes sense to me. The way I look at it, jacks and jump rope are simple until someone makes a contest of it. Then you have to write rules and you'll be writing rules until they make no sense at all. Without an overseer, the rules are useless.

Way back in the 1970s we started a war on litter. "Give a Hoot, don't pollute!" Remember that? We were going to beautify America. Clean up our highways.

Well, 40 odd years later we haven't defeated a piece of paper, or an empty soda can laying alongside the highways and byways. About once a month I pick up a bottle or a can, or a fast food bag, along the edge of my property. What are the chances of people following the rules when as a whole, we can't defeat a defenseless piece of paper?

Hate to say this, but people have been breaking the ten commandments since the day Moses brought them down from Mount Sinai.

 

Edited by garyo1954

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30 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:


Way back in the 1970s we started a war on litter. "Give a Hoot, don't pollute!" Remember that? We were going to beautify America. Clean up our highways.
 

 

I remember Iron Eyes Cody the fake crying Indian on the Tennessee Trash commercial.

Keep America Beautiful

Edited by Manville Possum

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19 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

I remember Iron Eyes Cody the fake crying Indian on the Tennessee Trash commercial.

I remember the Indian too. And stamping out forest fires with Smokey. And likely dozens of others if I tried. People know what a turn signal is when they take a drivers test, but once they get out on the road on their own, they may/may not use it. 

I don't know. I'm more concerned with preparing for an early start tomorrow.
I revisited a nano I couldn't find last week. And came away empty again.
Looked at the pictures, they show three different style of containers at various times.
Read the log. Last time it was found 3/14/18 and logger writes he "parked in a convenient spot and made the short walk over..." which is confusing since you can park within 10 foot of the monument.



 

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58 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I remember the Indian too. And stamping out forest fires with Smokey. And likely dozens of others if I tried. People know what a turn signal is when they take a drivers test, but once they get out on the road on their own, they may/may not use it. 

 

So far you are making a good examples for making geocaches PMO to keep those that don't care enough to invest anything into the hobby.

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23 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

So far you are making a good examples for making geocaches PMO to keep those that don't care enough to invest anything into the hobby.

If that's what you take from everything I've shown you, then I've failed to show the most important point.

People do not follow rules.
They never have and never will.

Make everything PMO. There will still be problems with rules because 1) people don't know the rules or, 2) people don't care about the rules or, 3) people don't choose to play the game in accordance with the rules.

Like jacks, Monopoly, Uno or any other game; as long as the players are happy with the way they play, it doesn't matter what the rules say.

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2 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

If that's what you take from everything I've shown you, then I've failed to show the most important point.

People do not follow rules.
They never have and never will.

Make everything PMO. There will still be problems with rules because 1) people don't know the rules or, 2) people don't care about the rules or, 3) people don't choose to play the game in accordance with the rules.

Like jacks, Monopoly, Uno or any other game; as long as the players are happy with the way they play, it doesn't matter what the rules say.

 

Still, from my experience and your novice on the subject I strongly disagree with you.

People that invest something in the hobby are more likely to put something back and make better members to the hobby.

Edited by Manville Possum
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47 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Still, from my experience and your novice on the subject I strongly disagree with you.

I agree with my being a novice when it comes to geocaching. No bones about it and I make no apologies.

But that's far from understanding people. I'll step out on the end of that branch and make the claim that you yourself do not follow every rule in all that you do. Nothing to be ashamed of, nobody does. Maybe you don't know there is a rule, maybe you don't see how it applies, or maybe you choose to ignore it.

Ever read the back of a polyurethane can? You know how you're supposed to apply thin coats?

(Sometimes I just dunk an item in the can and let it drip dry.)

 

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20 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Ever read the back of a polyurethane can? You know how you're supposed to apply thin coats?

(Sometimes I just dunk an item in the can and let it drip dry.)

There was a product I used years ago that told you to do that. It was a liquid rubber type product for adding rubber grips to tool handles. You'd dip the tool handle into the liquid, then let it drip dry. When you were done, your tool had a nice non-slip rubber grip on its handle.

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Lol. I wanted to read the last few hours worth of new posts on this thread and clicked the link ... read something about PMO caches and thought I’d tapped the wrong link. Did it twice more ...

funny how many threads end up discussing cache maintenance and PMO caches.

I swear I could start a thread asking “do hamsters or small chihuahuas make better swag?” then ignore the thread for a day or so only to jump back in to debate whether the results are the CO’s fault for not putting air holes in their caches or the community’s fault for enabling the situation by freeing the animals instead of slamming the lids back down and posting NMs.

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14 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

I swear I could start a thread asking “do hamsters or small chihuahuas make better swag?”

Are there any other kind of chihuahua?

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22 minutes ago, niraD said:

Are there any other kind of chihuahua?

Apparently they vary in weight from 3.3 to 6.6 pounds. But I’m not sure what that range would be in apples and sandwiches.

Edited by Doc_musketeers

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15 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I remember that dip stuff called Plasti-dip or something. It did make a good non-slip handle.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Gill & Tony said:

Yes See here

Oh, man. Back to back posts ... dipping plastic and chihuahua identification 101. 

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41 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I agree with my being a novice when it comes to geocaching. No bones about it and I make no apologies.

But that's far from understanding people. I'll step out on the end of that branch and make the claim that you yourself do not follow every rule in all that you do. Nothing to be ashamed of, nobody does. Maybe you don't know there is a rule, maybe you don't see how it applies, or maybe you choose to ignore it.

Ever read the back of a polyurethane can? You know how you're supposed to apply thin coats?

(Sometimes I just dunk an item in the can and let it drip dry.)

 

 

 

Edited by Manville Possum
Give up

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15 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

 

Oh, man. Back to back posts ... dipping plastic and chihuahua identification 101. 

I'm only half heartedly watching this. Part of me is watching Facebook where someone is asking about a travel bug hotel. (and then there's the last part looking at the lightning and wondering how much rain we can expect tonight.

I still want to find a chihuahua in one of your caches. Or a pit bull.

 

Edited by garyo1954

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13 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

I'm only half heartedly watching this. Part of me is watching Facebook where someone is asking about a travel bug hotel. (and then there's the last part looking at the lightning and wondering how much rain we can expect tonight.

 

Well, in lightheartedly commenting that this thread had drifted a fraction of a degree off its original heading, I seem to have spun the wheel hard and put us on the reef in chihuahua infested waters.

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18 minutes ago, Manville Possum said:

 

Being that this is a geocaching forum and not a forum on rules... I'm not debating physiology with you, but attempted to discuss geocaching with you.

Its all good.

 

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13 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Well, in lightheartedly commenting that this thread had drifted a fraction of a degree off its original heading, I seem to have spun the wheel hard and put us on the reef in chihuahua infested waters.

Never a bad thing when you're going in a bad direction to reset the course. Maybe chihuahuha can become the forum safe word?

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It seems that us newer players might at times unintentionally contribute to what some of the veteran cachers see as a degradation of the game. It obviously came up a few times in this thread ...

BUT! Our neophyte team has found out we have at least one useful characteristic:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Edited by Doc_musketeers

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2 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Apparently they vary in weight from 3.3 to 6.6 pounds. But I’m not sure what that range would be in apples and sandwiches.

Well, the Labrador Retrievers we've had in our home have ranged from 50 to 70 pounds. Relative to them, all Chihuahuas are firmly in the "small" category. :)

"But I digress."
-- Tom Lehrer

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8 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

BUT! Our neophyte team has found out we have at least one useful characteristic:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Relative "newbie" myself (Just over 1 year, found my first official, logged cache 3/8/2017) but my understanding of the Planetary Pursuit is you have to earn the points individually; what your friends do does not affect your individual score, and the individual score is what earns you, indivdually, the souvenirs.  That's assuming it works the same way the Mary Hyde promo did.  The aggregate group score was never actually used for anything, but having "friends" let you see how you were doing in comparison.

9 hours ago, garyo1954 said:

 Maybe chihuahuha can become the forum safe word?

So if someone is getting off topic, or things are getting a bit tense, someone yells CHIHUAHUA! and we all come back to our senses???  Hmmm! :D

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On 3/16/2018 at 6:55 AM, Touchstone said:

As a Finder, I would prefer writing my own Username on the log.

As a Cache Owner, I assume everyone is contributing to the effort in some way.  For instance, if 20-30 friends got together and built a human pyramid to access the cache, I would not begrudge the people at the bottom of the pyramid to claiming the Find.

 

 

This, almost verbatim. With one exception that I would prefer to sign my own name if at all possible. If I can't, I'd have no problem joining the team.

My minimum requirement for this practice is that you at least have to be there and participating in some manner. If you're sitting at home and get your name on the log then you should be privately mocked and ridiculed.

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54 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said:

but my understanding of the Planetary Pursuit is you have to earn the points individually;

Absolutely right. I read through the threads about the confusion on this and KNOW this. I guess I forgot about it in my excitement ~sigh ~  so much for newbie vindication. At least I fell asleep last night with a bit of geocaching self esteem. It was nice while it lasted. Lol

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9 hours ago, Doc_musketeers said:

One of our longtime local cachers sent us a “friend league” request. The accompanying note basically said “I need some newbie Friends that haven’t already found all the local caches for the planet thing.”

I don’t know if I’ve ever felt quite so simultaneously flattered and humbled before.

Oddly, this old fart that has only had one person ever on a "friends list",  had the same via emails (I'm "not accepting friends"). Something about my refusal to hit nondescript pieces of carp and word's again out.

If you feel flattered and humbled , I guess that's a good thing....

 -  But looks (to me) that I was just asked to be used for yet another promotion.  :D

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1 hour ago, CAVinoGal said:

So if someone is getting off topic, or things are getting a bit tense, someone yells CHIHUAHUA! and we all come back to our senses???  Hmmm! :D

I’m not sure it’s the best word tho... I had to go back and correct spelling twice on mine and saw it misspelled at least once on someone else’s post. Once you start typing the h’s u’s and a’s it’s hard to keep it straight.

so you’re getting flamed on the forum and type “chiuhahua!” ... the attacker looks carefully, says “nope, that’s not the safe word” and moves in for the kill.

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35 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Oddly, this old fart that has only had one person ever on a "friends list",  had the same via emails (I'm "not accepting friends"). Something about my refusal to hit nondescript pieces of carp and word's again out.

If you feel flattered and humbled , I guess that's a good thing....

 -  But looks (to me) that I was just asked to be used for yet another promotion.  :D

Well (a) we like him and already consider him a Geocaching Friend, lol. (B) I’m still proud that he figured we would be active enough to be worthy “team members,” even though it doesn’t work that way

I don’t really care about the “friend”’thing. Its not like social media where you need the “friendship” to be part of their online life. 

We were in a busy stage of life when the promotion came out last year so haven’t had a reason to pool scores. I didn’t even know the Friend League had the weekly leader feature until I went to the page to be ready for this new promotion.

And! That thought let’s me transition back onto topic (or at least a closely related side topic) which I’ll make a separate post, lol.

Edited by Doc_musketeers
Typo

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Many have commented that adding player-to-player competition to the game has been one impetus for some playersat least looking for loopholes if not outright “cheating” when it comes to Finds.

And don’t the Guidelines specifically forbid hides that require accomplishments that rely on “beating” other players (eg FTFs for a challenge)?

But now even the “Friend League” seems to promote competition. Who gets the high score for the week! If I need just one more Find to beat my buddies ... 

I suppose it encourages people to get out and play, and that kind of game doesn’t limit others ability to play like an FTF challenge does- my finding 100 caches this week doesn’t prevent you from doing the same but whenever there are deadlines, people get desperate.

But as I think Garyo1954 alluded to a while back, people change the rules of games like Monopoly to be able to play how they want to.

Does GS create options for head to head competition in response to player demand? I mean “we” created the FTF race sub-game, didn’t we?

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46 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Does GS create options for head to head competition in response to player demand? I mean “we” created the FTF race sub-game, didn’t we?

That's a good question...   I thought it was started by the Project Ape caches in '01.  In the promotion it was even advertised as "a race", but now not so sure...

We're hearing folks say that this new promotion's similar to challenges not allowed, so it could just be marketing ideas, and some stuck.  :)

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11 hours ago, bflentje said:

If you're sitting at home and get your name on the log then you should be privately mocked and ridiculed.

Some of the responses to the OP here have basically implied that the guidelines leave it to each player to decide ... yet as you perfectly point out, a player can manage to log a Find using loopholes but those who know the circumstances would consider it a “cheat.”

Obviously there are as many opinions as there are players... but as I watch the threads on questions like this, I’m able to see whose opinions come from a fair point of view and are based on the game’s principles. They are players who see the problems in the game but still promote it, seek to improve it, and enjoy playing! Those are the players I wouldn’t want to give reason to privately condemn my game play.

Some other comments seem to be merely bitter rants about what’s wrong with the game today. Such players don’t just lament days gone by but practically condemn the whole game. Their posts don’t welcome and encourage new players but discourage and blame them for the problems that do exist. And the deciding factor for me in taking advice: they don’t seem happy. In some cases they’ve given up whole aspects of the game. It’s like getting marriage advice from your friend who says “I’ve been divorced 3 times, listen to me, I know how this works.” Mere quantity of experience does not prove success. Should it earn a respectful hearing? Yes. Does it mean I should then do exactly what was advised? For one thing a good student never simply copies their teacher. They apply knowledge gained to their circumstances.

The only actionable advice I get from some of those posts is quit the game before it gets worse (or before my newbie presence makes it worse.)

Edited by Doc_musketeers
Removed extraneous “d”
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16 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

That's a good question...   I thought it was started by the Project Ape caches in '01.  In the promotion it was even advertised as "a race", but now not so sure...

We're hearing folks say that this new promotion's similar to challenges not allowed, so it could just be marketing ideas, and some stuck.  :)

That would be interesting if even FTF were created ... I assumed it was player-created because it just seems like a natural game for people to start. Any two kids on the playground will race to whatever’s across the field.

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Last night I thought about why it does feel insulting (and confusing) when somehow the condition of another COs cache comes up and its implied that I should have taken particular actions regarding their cache.

firstly, that criticism usually comes from those who feel the game is already in a downward spiral and that poor cache maintenance is a symptom of that decline. Let’s accept that claim (I’m a proponent for better maintenance but won’t (can’t?) accept that the game is in its death throes).

There are three options:

1) I stick to the idea that every cache I encounter should be in perfect order. Missing, full or wet log? Nope. Won’t take the Find even if I have an acceptable substitute log with me. Heck, listing said CO placed a pencil inside! It’s gone! Just use mine? No way I’m enabling this deadbeat CO! I’ll Post an NM or even NA and walk away.

2) I give in to the debauched, honorless game Geocaching has become and carry throw downs, post finds if I think I merely found the empty hidey-hole, prop up obviously abandoned caches, etc.

3) I accept that the game has changed. Some COs aren’t as responsive as I consider proper. I vow to set a good example with my own caches and post DNFs, NMs even NAs as needed. I will praise other responsible players and those who seek to improve. But my acknowledgment of a changing game will allow me to find a personal compromise. If a cache is listed, and I make the appropriate effort and find the container, but there is a relatively minor issue (broken, lid missing, in-signable log),  I will, as far as my conscience allows, determine how to claim the Find as defined in the guidelines.

I’m going with number three ...

 

Edited by Doc_musketeers
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28 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

That would be interesting if even FTF were created ... I assumed it was player-created because it just seems like a natural game for people to start. Any two kids on the playground will race to whatever’s across the field.

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

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18 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

Wow. Interesting. We do love the FTF race ... but honestly part of it for us is the interaction with the other players. There’s a lot of friendly teasing in WNs (“Better start looking for your shoes, [player x]!”) 

as for the goodies, we won $1 yesterday! Lol probably wasted $5 in gas. We make custom team “FTF” fridge magnets as the prize for our non-XS hides. We’ve left in-activated TB dog tags in our puzzle caches.

it is funny because that is usually the first muggle question: “What do find in geocaches?” I cringe when I see the game referred to as a “treasure hunt” lol.

I like your differentiation between hobby and game. Really true.

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32 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Possible I guess...  But this was still a "tech" outdoors hobby out of the limelight, not established as it is today.

I feel one of the main reasons "FTF" became so popular was because of the prizes offered at the time.  Few caches and players  (the reason Benchmarking was added by the site, just so folks could find something...), that most caches had something special inside to draw folks to it (even when we started in '04).  

Night-shifters end in early morning, and the other 2/3rds was easily first to a cache and claim-that-goodie.  Coaxed by others to beat a local calling himself the "FTF King" was when we realized there was such a thing as an actual "FTF race".  We'd see everything from cash and gift cards to gear.  We put an older GPSr as a FTF prize in a cache once.

These days, so many caches and cachers, no need to tease anyone to them with goodies, and now stats (I believe) is the draw for those who make this hobby a game.    :)

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

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23 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

Locally there’s a handful of active cachers. A few veterans, a few single-digit newbies another relatively new couple and our team. The other young couple and us are pretty active placing new hides, and we went through a period of being FTF on each other’s new caches. Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

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27 minutes ago, garyo1954 said:

Cerebus this played out last evening 137 miles away. A new cache went up with a gold coin. 

A guy lamented he'd never make it since he was working late. But as luck would have it, he arrived at the site around 10:30, saw it hadn't been claimed and proceeded to GZ to pick up his prize.

18 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

... Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

Cool.  :)  These days, only really long walks or higher terrain hides have prizes similar here.  We don't see that kinda stuff much anymore, now that nondescript caches are placed only for a find count .

We were FTF in an entire series in another state once ...  Then we found out that the CO holding an event messed the  publishing date up, and the reason no one else went there was it was supposed to be held for that event first.  :laughing:

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13 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

Cool.  :)  These days, only really long walks or higher terrain hides have prizes similar here.  We don't see that kinda stuff much anymore, now that nondescript caches are placed only for a find count .

We were FTF in an entire series in another state once ...  Then we found out that the CO holding an event messed the  publishing date up, and the reason no one else went there was it was supposed to be held for that event first.  :laughing:

The other local couple I've mentioned published a cache recently and they instantly disabled it with a note that one of them would be at GZ for some unexpected last minute work. We shot out a WN that we’d come watch and the rest of the local “crew” started listing what they’d bring (popcorn, cream eggs ...) to the supposed impromptu event.

(obviously we all waited. And the cleverness was worth the wait, lol)

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16 minutes ago, Doc_musketeers said:

Locally there’s a handful of active cachers. A few veterans, a few single-digit newbies another relatively new couple and our team. The other young couple and us are pretty active placing new hides, and we went through a period of being FTF on each other’s new caches. Then all of us locals will somehow simultaneously decide to “let the others have a chance this time” and a new cache will sit for days only to have FTF go to some out-of-area cacher traveling through, who inevitably comments “surprised nobody’d found this yet...”

That's what I'm expecting here.

The top 30 longest not found have not been seen in 200+ days. In one, the last log entry was "area burnt out, tree down. DNF"  That was in 2016. To date there has been no confirmation the cache is alive.

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:00 AM, hzoi said:

This is going to sound cold, but I imagine there are a lot of things that people who can't climb a  cliff, bridge, tree, whatever would like to be included in but physically can't accomplish.  I question whether signing a log on their behalf they could never reach is really including them. 

I understand and respect your point here.  However, I will argue signing a log on their behalf is including them in the community and the online logging aspect of the game.  I support that over stiff rules if it brings joy to another human.

I've done both.  I've refused to e-log geocaches I know are beyond my physical or comfort limits.  I've also logged geocaches within my limits but didn't see the point in ten people making a simple six-foot climb to simply satisfy the spirit of the hide.

Edited by TerraViators
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On 3/17/2018 at 3:53 PM, garyo1954 said:

Way back in the 1970s we started a war on litter. "Give a Hoot, don't pollute!" Remember that? We were going to beautify America. Clean up our highways.

Well, 40 odd years later we haven't defeated a piece of paper, or an empty soda can laying alongside the highways and byways. About once a month I pick up a bottle or a can, or a fast food bag, along the edge of my property. What are the chances of people following the rules when as a whole, we can't defeat a defenseless piece of paper?

non sequitur: While I understand your point, my guess is that things would be much, much worse if we hadn't spent those 40 years fighting litter.

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My rule, such as it is, is that if the folks in my group are all actively looking for the cache at GZ and one of us comes up with it, if it's inconvenient for one of us to all slide down the hill to where one of us has found it, then I'm not going to worry too much about it.  In my mind, that's a fair team find.  I'm immune to poison oak, so if the last 20 yards or so are through a PO field, I'll plow right through and sign for the team or bring it out and back for them to sign.

Where I draw the line for my ownself is that the group has to be working on *that* cache.  I'd never claim any sort of leap-frogging in my total.  But that's me.

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